Barbosa and Leal Devices - Info and Replication Details

[MadMack]

Citfa,

You essentially said my advice was dangerous because an earth ground was needed. The earth ground is provided, need I remind you for TEST purposes. You were unaware of that and therefore ignorant of a fact and speaking from a false perspective, implying that I meant to remove ALL earth grounding from the circuits. And I have stated that if you want to use an isolation transformer or battery/inverter then by all means do so, and never have I argued or stated that inverter power is not good enough. Stop putting words into my mouth.

.

[MadMack]

Hello level. Nonsense eh? And you really do understand Clarence's schematic perfectly fine? You already knew that the earth ground is reestablished through Clarence's circuit when you agreed with citfa that my advice was dangerous? You understand everything about why Clarence's device showed a reduction of watts from the mains? You understand everything there is to know about the device?

Maybe you do. Is that why you have belittled Clarence's work and keep insinuating that it is only fooling the power meter? You posted a picture of your 'free energy device' as an example too, didn't you. You hooked it up to your 'mains hot wire to ground' to use your own words, and lit a 100 watt light bulb.

Tell us, were you fooling your power meter then? Were you not using power that ran through your meter, power that is paid for?

Have you ever used a current clamp on that mains hot wire to earth and read the current that is being fed to earth when different appliances are running and not running? I think you are aware of how much can be there. Your own words again 'Don't underestimate what kind of power a mains ground loop can provide..'

If you were able to reuse that current over and over after it has been metered (paid for) would not the reuse of current essentially be free?

Do you know that 'captor de electron' can be translated as 'electron scavenger'?

Are you still so sure of yourself about that $2000 extension cord?

Mack

[level]

Level, you may have looked at the schematics very carefully but it is obvious you do not understand what you have looked at. If you did you would not have agreed with that ignorant tirade of citfa's about my supposedly dangerous advice. Neither one of you realized the earth ground was reestablished through Clarence's circuit, so you both have proven to everyone that you really don't understand what you are talking about.

You should rethink what you are insisting on as the only acceptable device configuration because you are not seeing the flaw in your thinking, again. May I suggest that if you truly wish to understand that you build even a small replica yourself and do some testing of your own? Then maybe you can restore some of your credibility.

Mack

Hello MadMack. Now you are just talking nonsense. I understand Clarence's schematic perfectly fine. The fact is that if you connect Clarence's configuration to the mains, what you end up with is a $2000 extension cord, although not quite as efficient as an actual 10$ extension cord. I have pointed out that Barbosa and Leal showed the use of a battery and inverter in their own patent application drawings, so there really is no reason at all for not using a battery and inverter, and avoiding all the problems associated with using the mains. I just can't say it any clearer than that. Everyone is free to make up their own minds.

I personally would avoid using an isolation transformer unless you are going to take steps to show that the isolation transformer you are using is fully isolating the output on the secondary from the mains. You would need to show that you do not measure any significant voltage between either secondary wire and earth ground. Regarding relying on a transformer for isolation, I have observed in my own experiments that at higher frequencies even in the lower kHz range that a transformer with separate primary and secondary does not necessarily give you full isolation, possibly due to the capacitance between the primary and secondary windings. When using a battery and inverter there is no doubt at all that you are fully isolated from the mains, so that is definitely the way to go in my oipinion.

People can do whatever they want. If you want to plug Clarence's setup into the mains to give you a $2000 extension cord that may possibly fool your power meter to some extent, that is your business. If on the other hand someone is really interested in trying to understand if a Barbosa and Leal device can really provide free energy, then in my opinion it only makes sense to use a battery and inverter. If Barbosa and Leal's devices can really provide free energy, then since no one has been able to replicate and demonstrate this yet that I know of, it would appear that no one has figured out the secret to the arrangement. The other explanation is that Barbosa and Leal's devices really just do not work. Time may tell...

Happy experimenting everyone...

[citfta]

MadMack, YOU are the one demonstrating your ignorance of Clarence's circuit. Connecting a circuit to ground is not what is creating the ground loop problem. Connecting a circuit to ground AND powering that circuit from mains power directly is what creates the ground loop problem.

The National Electrical Code clearly gives the reason for having an earth ground connected to the main electrical panel. And that reason is exactly as I have stated before. So my advice to NOT disconnect the earth ground was most certainly not from ignorance.

You still haven't given any reason for not using an isolation transformer or using a battery and inverter. Why is that? An isolation transformer will give you perfect sine wave power which you seem to think is necessary. Wantomake has already shown he got so positive results using a cheap inverter and battery so your argument about inverter power not being good enough is also invalid. And Clarence is using an inverter in his circuit. So you really aren't making any arguments that make any sense.

Carroll

[MadMack]

Level, you may have looked at the schematics very carefully but it is obvious you do not understand what you have looked at. If you did you would not have agreed with that ignorant tirade of citfa's about my supposedly dangerous advice. Neither one of you realized the earth ground was reestablished through Clarence's circuit, so you both have proven to everyone that you really don't understand what you are talking about.

You should rethink what you are insisting on as the only acceptable device configuration because you are not seeing the flaw in your thinking, again. May I suggest that if you truly wish to understand that you build even a small replica yourself and do some testing of your own? Then maybe you can restore some of your credibility.

Mack

[BroMikey]

I believe I hear that HARP music playing right now!
I believe they call it the LOOP-de-LOOP song HA! HA!

You're still ignored.

Clarence

Please read the information

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyVbevU-LDY

Clarence is a very patient man, Thanks Clarence.

Send this to the guys for me.

[clarence]

Yes, I have of course looked at the schematics very carefully. Power will still loop back to the mains panel ground point or to a utility pole ground point, even if the neutral at the input of the device is grounded to some ground rods. I think it would be a mistake to just assume that no or little power is looping back to the mains neutral ground points just because they are further away. With a good earth ground connection and half decent earth conductivity, the earth ground resistance should only be very low. Tesla showed that he could transmit power through great distances in the ground. The SWER utility power system also works on the principle that the earth ground return path can be very long and still provide full power.

At any rate this is a moot point since as I have pointed out there should be no reason at all for not using a battery and inverter, and doing so will eliminate any questions of power coming from mains ground loops, or ground loops throwing off power meters. If someone can show that they can deliver more power to a load than they are drawing from a battery when powering from a battery and inverter, then they may well be onto something, and that would definitely be worth investigating further in my opinion.

I believe I hear that HARP music playing right now!
I believe they call it the LOOP-de-LOOP song HA! HA!

You're still ignored.

Clarence

[level]

Level, have you and citfa even studied Clarence's circuit? Apparently not.
Look at it.
See the earth grounds bonded to the neutral?

Yes, I have of course looked at the schematics very carefully. Power will still loop back to the mains panel ground point or to a utility pole ground point, even if the neutral at the input of the device is grounded to some ground rods. I think it would be a mistake to just assume that no or little power is looping back to the mains neutral ground points just because they are further away. With a good earth ground connection and half decent earth conductivity, the earth ground resistance should only be very low. Tesla showed that he could transmit power through great distances in the ground. The SWER utility power system also works on the principle that the earth ground return path can be very long and still provide full power.

At any rate this is a moot point since as I have pointed out there should be no reason at all for not using a battery and inverter, and doing so will eliminate any questions of power coming from mains ground loops, or ground loops throwing off power meters. If someone can show that they can deliver more power to a load than they are drawing from a battery when powering from a battery and inverter, then they may well be onto something, and that would definitely be worth investigating further in my opinion.

[MadMack]

Level, have you and citfa even studied Clarence's circuit? Apparently not.

Look at it.

See the earth grounds bonded to the neutral?

.

[level]

Ground loops can potentially provide a lot of power!

In case anyone missed it, this is an example of what sort of power you can draw from the mains hot wire to earth ground just using a single two foot long rusty ground rod. In this test I was powering a 100 Watt light bulb. If I were to use several more much longer ground rods I should be able to power a large microwave or high power plug in electric heater or whatever else to full power. Don't underestimate what kind of power a mains ground loop can provide...

[level]

A important rule of thumb

This also bears repeating:
A very simple reality check is, if it works when connected to the mains but doesn't work the same at all when powering from a battery and inverter, then very obviously the extra power you are seeing when plugged into the mains is coming from the mains itself.

Barbosa and Leal showed the use of their devices with batteries and inverters in their patent application drawings, so there really should be no reason for not doing all your testing with a battery and inverter, since it eliminates various potential problems.

A very good rule of thumb is that for basically any free energy arrangement that requires an earth ground connection to produce free energy, you should only power the device with a battery if the setup requires a power source. If you see someone powering such an arrangement using the mains, then you know right off that any test results could very well be quite misleading.

Happy experimenting!

[level]

But for someone to claim that anyone exercising proper precautions CAN NOT use mains power in any way to test a B&L device and if they do then all their measurements are WORTHLESS is absolutely wrong and you know it. My BAD ADVICE as you call it is merely an outline to demonstrate that your statements about mains power being worthless for research are false.

Hello MadMack. No, you apparently overlooked that the mains panel can very well be grounded to the cold water pipes (it is in my house) and the neutral can also be earth grounded at the utility pole. That means if someone had followed your advice they could still well be completely mislead regarding any results they see in tests. Testing with the mains for this type of device will always leave the possibility open for possible earth ground loops, and you therefore just can't draw any conclusions from the results. It is possible mains power meters could not properly measure power usage when power is going through a ground loop return as well. It depends on the power meter that is in use, but this is a real possibility. If someone sincerely wants to avoid the very real possibility of misleading results, then simply do not use the mains as the input power source.

[MadMack]

Yes you're right, the average person who doesn't have a clue about electricity or building wiring should not try to work on mains power or their service panel.

That kind of person should not try to build a B&L device or any other high voltage high current device in the first place unless they have a death wish.

If you don't know enough about electricity to use proper extreme caution at all times, stay away from it!

I am not advising anyone to use mains power as a permanent supply for a B&L device nor am I advising the permanent removal of the earth wire.

By all means test your device with an isolation transformer or battery/inverter. You do have those don't you?

But for someone to claim that anyone exercising proper precautions CAN NOT use mains power in any way to test a B&L device and if they do then all their measurements are WORTHLESS is absolutely wrong and you know it. My BAD ADVICE as you call it is merely an outline to demonstrate that your statements about mains power being worthless for research are false.

.

[level]

Now can we be done with this nonsense that you cannot use mains power to your B&L device for testing purposes?

I agree with citfta. You are giving bad advice. The average person is not familiar enough with electrical wiring and the service panel beyond knowing how to reset a breaker or replace a fuse, so it would be dangerous for the average person to mess around in their mains service panel. Also, as citfta pointed out, disconnecting the earth ground from the mains panel would be a very real shock hazard. That's why the neutral is earth grounded at the panel in many countries. Also from what I understand in some if not many countries there is also a ground wire running from the panel ground bus to the cold water copper pipes for safety, which could act as a secondary earth ground for the ground bus if the cold water intake pipe to the house or building uses copper or other metal type pipe buried in the ground. Also, in some if not many countries, the neutral is also grounded at the utility pole, so there is the real likelihood that the neutral will still be earth grounded even if someone were to disconnect the service panel earth ground rod wire. As long as someone is powering from the mains, there is always the possibility of ground loops, so the results will always be questionable at best.

There is just no good reason for not using a battery and inverter, which avoids all sorts of potential problems related to using the mains, and simplifies power input measurements to the device. If someone is powering this sort of Barbosa and Leal setup from the mains, then you simply can't evaluate the results. For those sincerely interested in trying to understand how a Barbosa and Leal device really performs, the best and simplest choice overall is to power from a battery and inverter. You are completely disconnected and isolated from the mains when using a battery and inverter, and so any doubts about possible ground loops are taken right out of the picture.

[MadMack]

citfa, you talk like everyone reading this forum doesn't have the sense God gave a goose.

Insult away, go ahead