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Barbosa and Leal Devices - Info and Replication Details

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  • level
    replied
    For the time being, without further specific details coming on actual performance from anyone, I will just say the following.

    Clarence is overall a good guy. He has worked very hard at this project, and tried a lot of different variations over the last couple of years. That is very commendable. The problem over the last two years is that Clarence is a very stubborn guy and has very much resisted very strongly doing practical tests that would show clearly how his different setups were really performing, while frequently hinting that his setups are giving him over unity. This has caused some people to go out and spend money on a setup thinking that they can achieve over unity with such a setup, but, from what I have seen, and I have done a fair bit of research on it in the past, there honestly really hasn't been anything convincingly demonstrated so far that any home experimenter has been able to get over unity out of these types of B&L Captor setups. It is possible that someone has succeeded somewhere out there, but if so I am not aware of it.

    I have read that B&L have just a high school education, (I don't know if that is accurate or not) so it is possible that they themselves were fooled by the mains ground loop thing and really thought it was over unity, but that doesn't explain why they made a video saying they could get the same kind of over unity results using a battery and inverter, and why someone who supposedly did some 'independent' testing on B&L devices reported measuring over unity. So the B&L captor device thing remains a mystery. Why did the B&L built unit that Ariovaldo got his hands on not work for him and the person who originally purchased it, if these devices really do produce over unity? Strange...

    I tested for about two weeks or so with the single toroid B&L configuration based on circuit info provided by Avioraldo's tear down of the actual B&L built unit, using an old well with a steel casing as the earth ground, which actually makes a very good earth ground, and I did not see any kind of unusual current gain effect on the ground wire. True, I didn't use a whole array of ground rods, but the old well tube provides a very good earth ground, so a person might think that there should have been at least some unusual current gain effect noted in the testing I did, even if it was only a smaller effect. However, I did not see any unusual effect at all in my own test. I did follow Ariovaldo's circuit configuration very closely except I used a pre-wound commercial power toroid, and my setup was different than several that Clarence has tried, as Clarence added a separate earth ground connection to the neutral on the inverter, which was not part of B&L's configuration based on Ariovaldo's tear down, and based on the patent drawings. So, I can say that at least for my my own test setup, I did not see anything out of the ordinary.

    The main problem is this, and has always been this. When testing this type of B&L setup with the mains you will definitely have a mains ground loop and you can be completely mislead by the results you are seeing. To avoid this, you must test with a battery and inverter, and unfortunately, as I mentioned, I so far have not seen any proper test results from anyone using a battery and inverter that show anything out of the ordinary.

    If someone knowing the above still wants to build one of these setups and test with it, that is their own decision, but you should at least first be aware that to date it appears no one has been able to demonstrate one of these B&L setups showing real over unity while powering from a battery and inverter, which is the only way to do meaningful tests with this sort of setup.

    I wish everyone the best of luck with their experiments!

    Last edited by level; 08-14-2017, 07:58 PM.

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  • Coil
    replied
    Originally posted by clarence View Post
    Hello Coil,

    Fist of all , let me thank you for your question.
    Your perplexity is justified. My reference to the breaker tripping only concerned the GDT circuit itself. I'm sorry that I did not make that clear.
    The clarification for that is this, If the GDT were actually removed from that individual circuit it would in essence be a direct short and cause the breaker to trip and automatically shut the whole system down. That can also happen if the GDT is in place but is of a lower arc-over voltage than the system voltage - say for example 120 volts AC.if a 120 volt GDT were to be used it would automatically trigger because it is designed to do just that at that voltage. That is why any GDT used has tobe at a HIGHER voltage rating than the system is based on, That is why I use a 150 volt rated GDT in this circuit.
    That let's it act as the safety feature for the whole system. ANY type of voltage surge will enable it to dropout the whole system and protect all the components and loaded items presently being powered by this system.
    Please forgive me for not making that clear to you Sir.
    And again , thanks for your question - hope this helps.

    Respectfully ,

    Clarence
    Hi Clarence

    Thanks for the clarification.

    Much appreciated.

    Regards

    Coil

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  • digits10
    replied
    Yep

    I think we're all pretty much after that info

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  • Cadman
    replied
    Questions.

    What I would like to have answers to:

    Is the system capable of charging its own battery with only the charger as a load?
    If the system can maintain a charged battery, how much extra is left over for other loads?
    If powering loads in excess of the extra, can the battery charge recover during periods of low usage?
    Is the extra, if any, worth the investment?

    Leave a comment:


  • wantomake
    replied
    Reality rules!!

    Originally posted by digits10 View Post
    Cadman,
    Can't wait to get off work today, so that I can work on wiring up my ground rods. Hopefully, I can help reality exert itself
    Digits10,
    I envy you, I'm still planning stage for my ground grid rods and connecting wire. I've spent the morning testing different setups with and without inverter or mains power. Got to go get some hardware etc. from Lowes.

    Hope your wiring goes without problems.
    wantomake

    Leave a comment:


  • clarence
    replied
    Finished and following

    Hello Wantomake,

    My beginning interest in this type unit was to have the means to be able to power lights and fridge in the event of a Utility power failure. that would have meant having a constant charged battery bank and inverter system ready to go and fill in for the time until the Utility power came back on.
    That's what I have at the present as I use the AC setup to keep the batt
    banks charged at peak voltage ready and waiting.

    In the mean time I will increase the size of the battery bank - sometimes in this area there have been 12-13 hour outages, so I don't think just two will cover all that.
    In the event of natural disasters such as hurricanes etc., probably other additives may be needed to help with the battery charging such as solar and wind. Nobody knows what the next days will bring.

    One thing is certain though, ALL of the Utility companies will still be here
    and thriving. They are not going away ever.

    In the meanwhile I intend to make my usage of their service as small as possible.

    So as far as my use of this forum ,and this thread in particular, in the future days and months will mostly be very minimal. I will continue to look in at least once a week to see if anyone else has come up with something new or
    no.

    Will be waiting to see how your systems finish out.

    Thanks J,

    Clarence

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  • digits10
    replied
    Yeah

    Cadman,
    Can't wait to get off work today, so that I can work on wiring up my ground rods. Hopefully, I can help reality exert itself

    Leave a comment:


  • Cadman
    replied
    BroMikey,

    I see. I guess, even if it was spelled out for some, they would remain closed minded and obstinate. Level refuses to see that the charger is on the high side of the inverter and it's output is fed back to the battery where it re-enters the cycle. Being on the high side it is a load and may possibly take in extra charge from outside the system. Measuring the amperage at the battery connection to the inverter includes the output from the charger and that point in the circuit is the entry point for the majority of the charge supplied to the load. Measuring at that location is not what is being drawn from the battery, it is what is drawn from the battery + charger.

    But, I am told that I don't know what I'm talking about and only confusing matters so I'll shut up and wait for reality to assert itself.

    Regards

    Leave a comment:


  • clarence
    replied
    They are the same ones

    Originally posted by FRANKLIN View Post
    Hello
    I understood the circuit of the device that is on the picture that clarence posted before
    What it is not clear for me, why on the picture of the final setup (attached the picture) the toroids look differenf in comparison with the picture of the toroids from birdgeport magnetics

    Just tell me if you did a modification to the original toroids (I kow you added the blue wire, I saw in the picture very clear, but I do not know if there is another modification to the toroids).

    thanks
    FRANKLIN,

    I don't know why you think you see any difference?
    They are the very same ones in the image photo!
    Years back I bought a total of five of them.
    Two of them I sent to another member several years back so he could
    do some building.
    As you said yourself, the Blue wire is just clearly an overlay.

    I don't mind the question, now you have the answer.

    Respectfully,

    Clarence

    Leave a comment:


  • level
    replied

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Cadman View Post
    Level,

    If I had bothered to read and consider what you wrote? How condescending.

    To use your own words, let's not mislead people here.

    Clarence is being straightforward.
    .
    I have watched Level for 2 years post daily when his side is losing the
    battle of confidence. His job is to thwart any good feelings of higher
    level aspiration. You can't reason with that.

    However your questions that should be asked are never addressed.

    Good to have someone around who can point out this side winding
    strategy so a newcomer does not get sucked in. We may not post
    much for days and what is posted is all based on real hands on, totally
    foreign to the non researcher.

    Where is that extra 20% coming from? Good question Cadman

    It is a process of deduction that gives us the answer. People who
    consider themselves adept should at least answer those few basics.


    Just like when Clarence showed the inverter results to be conclusive,
    these same skeptics never want to go over the material or know how.

    For weeks and months and years the inverter test was to be the final
    test of surety and now that the results are in we do not hear anything
    good. All we hear round about is that Clarence must be mistaken.

    Or better yet Clarence is in effect a liar. Now that is what we are hearing
    from the other side, in so many words. Of course these folks would never
    come right out and say such a thing.

    Many ground rods are a bunch of work all by themselves, then there
    is all of the technical end probably far beyond the average cynic.

    Yeah ole Clarence is just trying to make a name for himself, he thinks
    he is really smart now doesn't he?Cynical, eccentric and skeptical
    as the status quo.

    Zero's without any ones.-------
    Last edited by BroMikey; 08-14-2017, 07:48 AM.

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  • FRANKLIN
    replied
    Somebody could tell me this please

    Hello
    I understood the circuit of the device that is on the picture that clarence posted before
    What it is not clear for me, why on the picture of the final setup (attached the picture) the toroids look differenf in comparison with the picture of the toroids from birdgeport magnetics

    Just tell me if you did a modification to the original toroids (I kow you added the blue wire, I saw in the picture very clear, but I do not know if there is another modification to the toroids).

    thanks
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • level
    replied
    Hello Cadman. I am sorry but you don't know what you are talking about. The tests I suggested are perfectly valid and were suggested for a very good reason. For a person who understands what is going on, the tests can quickly and simply determine where the actual power is coming from. The measured battery current times the measured battery voltage gives the total input power when using a battery. When powering from the mains, if all the current is coming from the hot phase, then it will be very close to the ground wire current. Please stop confusing matters. Thank you.
    Last edited by level; 08-14-2017, 03:44 AM.

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  • Cadman
    replied
    Level,

    If I had bothered to read and consider what you wrote? How condescending. What you wrote about measuring between the battery and inverter is both pointless and short sighted.
    What would be measured in that instance would be the current between the battery positive and the inverter and nothing else. That current should be many times the current drawn by the load for a 12V battery supplying a 120V inverter. Also current limiting kicking in is by design in the inverter indicating an excessive load on the inverter and nothing else.
    To use your own words, let's not mislead people here.

    Clarence is being straightforward. He was pulling a 25A load on a 20A fuse, though he didn't say for how long. If it was a sustained load for a lengthy period then where was the extra amperage coming from?

    An extra 20% is nothing to scoff at . So how about we wait and see how the battery / inverter / charger performs?

    .

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  • level
    replied
    Originally posted by Cadman View Post
    Clarence,

    So glad you have switched to the inverter setup. When you get time would you mind reposting the battery / inverter / charger connections for everyone?

    @Level
    Clarence said earlier that he was just using the mains for convenience. So who cares if the mains setup is a ground loop? He reported the facts about the amp draw of the fused setup.

    Personally, I don't care one bit if OU can be measured. The proof is in the pudding. If Clarence's setup can run the load longer than the battery with inverter alone, then that is all the proof needed. If you can't see the good of that then I don't know what to tell you. I see similarities with Turion's device here; recycling charges. Plus there is the possibility that additional charge may be extracted from the ground. This an open system.

    You've made your point. So give it a rest, OK?

    Respectfully
    Hello Cadman. This is not about 'whether OU can be measured', and never has been, as of course over unity is capable of being measured. If you are getting more power out than the total input power to a system, then that would be over unity. There is nothing complicated or mysterious about that at all.

    What is of interest here is what is really going on in a B&L setup of this type. If you had bothered to actually read what I wrote above and considered what is being said, you would realize there is a very apparent problem with Clarence's latest setup. It performs great when connected to the mains, but Clarence stated that it causes the current limiting on his inverter to kick in when trying to power larger loads. That is a big warning sign. Let's not mislead people here. Clarence was suggesting that the high current on his ground wire (18A to 25A) when connected to the mains was not coming from the mains, and that is why he felt he had something special this time. If you have any doubts about this, go back and read Clarence's previous comments on this.

    Anyone who cares to look will see that Clarence's latest setup has the hot phase wire going to one side of his load, and this phase current then returns through his ground rod array through the ground back to the grounded neutral on the utility box. In other words it is just another mains ground loop setup. That would appear to be why it performs great when connected to the mains, but apparently can only power light loads when connected to a battery and inverter.

    I have suggested some very simple tests that Clarence can do to easily confirm where the power is really coming from in Clarence's setup, whether he is connected to the mains or to a battery and inverter. A person who is genuinely interested in trying to understand what is really going on would of course not hesitate to do these kind of basic tests because their goal is to get a better understanding.
    The problem here Cadman is this latest setup by Clarence appears to be no different than any of Clarence's earlier setups other than this setup not having the high current 'captor loop', so chances are it is going to perform about the same as his earlier setups. I encourage Clarence to do some proper testing and confirm this for himself and report his results back here, as I would hate to see a bunch of people shelling out large sums of money on batteries and inverters and toroids and a whole pile of ground rods if this latest setup is really no different than Clarence's previous setups.


    Last edited by level; 08-13-2017, 03:47 PM.

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