Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera

[bistander]

Tpu

Hello Bistander and again, thanks for your analysis.

Your explanation does make sense to me from the plain, single layer coil setup...but this is not what I am trying to reach here...

See, like I wrote before, my goal is to be able to generate mainly, a very Strong Magnetic Field expansion and contraction within same core, no matter its geometry and with static coils.

And the way I am planning to build this is not necessarily by a single layer coil with taps like Part G operates....What I am looking for is to build a more complex series of coils in sequence based on several layers and many A/T, in order that when it turns on, it generates a stronger magnetic field which is immediately attached to the previous one, because of its N/S>N/S>N/S chain arrangement...and so on.

This sequenced coils will expand and retract the magnetic field very accurately through the iron core geometry (whichever we choose) by their stepping back-forth ON-OFF action, while never collapsing the main field which is retained always at the "Minimal Retracting Coil" which would be always ON and would be based on a "workable resistance value" allowing coil not to heat up.

Then the "Approach" and "Recede" of the Magnetic Field related to the Induced...would be very "Physical" and accurately taken by the turning on-off of the sequenced coils.

I believe -not sure though- that a DC linear motor works similar to this related to the static coils which turn in sequential series actuation to move the "lineal rotor"...well, if this is the case, then we will have something similar to Two Linear Motors Stators facing each others in a synchronized back-forth movement of their fields-sequence.


Hope you understand now what I am trying to achieve.



Regards



Ufopolitics

Hi Ufo,

I believe I understand what you're trying to do. Guess I don't think it will work like that. But ---- ? Remember earlier on this thread where a member connected 2 bulbs and a DC source to a variac and was able to flash them at the end of strokes of the wiper moving back and forth? He posted a short vid. Forget who that was. But it does demonstrate a possibility of some type of induction coming from changing turn count on a coil with fixed DC source.

In your diagrams you show 2 primary coils (or windings). Both are in the same orientation which surprised me since you are such a big fanboy of repulse fields.

I seem to recall having seen numerous motionless generator attempts over the years (in the literature only). A search might might give you insight as to what has been tried.

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

You are correct that the increase in impedance does restrict the current flow. And yes no matter how many amps are available they cannot enter the circuit.

There are 3 ways you can overcome this problem. The first way is of course to just reduce the speed of the brush which will of course lower the frequency. Since you want an output of 60 hz this is not a good option. Another way is to lower the inductance of the part G. This will allow you to operate at a higher frequency with lower impedance. You can either reduce the number of turns on part G or remove some of the core material by using less ferrite material by using only 2 ferrite rings instead of 3 or what ever way you can find to do that.

Another thing you can do as you surmised is to raise the voltage as you increase the frequency. This will of course increase your power input requirement some but remember you are only increasing it enough to get the current to the level you need. The increased impedance at the higher frequency is still going to limit the amount of current so the current is not going to go any higher that what you allow by the amount of voltage you apply.

Sorry for the slow response but I was out of town all day yesterday.

Hope this info helps a little.

Regards,
Carroll

Thanks Citfta, that was really helpful!

Yes, lowering speed/frequency won't do as I/we need the operating frequency of 60 Hz...reducing the Core either, since I only have a part 120 Single toroid which is 1800VA.

On my previous tests with the cylindrical comm the system (primaries-part g=exciting system) was rising voltage on its own back to the power source as I raised speed , unfortunately the bad mechanical connection and source (PSU was 18V and 3 A) I was using will not allow me to go into the 3600's...but now I would be able to with the flat comm plus different brush and using the switching PSU that goes up to 60V and 10 Amps...so am ready to go there.

Second issue I am having is that due to the low resistance at the exciting system...I can not raise voltage above ten volts (amps I can drive to top=15A)...even with the old Agilent linear PSU I am using...and so Member Lota told me to add a 3-5 AC Cap between both positive terminals at Part G...may allow me to rise V properly...

Meaning, I still need to conclude my build then test all these possibilities...we would see.


Thanks again for your answers, very kind of you!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[citfta]

Hello Citfta,

Referring just to the bold out statement above...I understand Impedance as a type of resistance against current flow, developed because of the changing currents directions...and as I interpret your comment above...the higher the speed the higher this resistance/impedance "grows"...therefore, the less currents allowed to Part G, so, no matter how many amps at source, they will not be allowed in...Am I right so far?

The reason why I made this specific post, is because you are perfectly correct and dead on what is happening on my set up...and that I have addressed before...as I see it in the Magnetic Field Decay in the Max Deflecting Angles at higher speeds.

When system is at lower speeds the max deflect angles are perfectly spread to max screen position as the low field declines also properly...resulting in very good and strong induction at secondaries.

But instead of having an increase when I accelerate towards the required operating speed (3600 RPM's) system reduces induction considerably. As I notice the fluctuation angles decrease.

My question is...Is there a way to avoid or at least to minimize this Impedance effect from happening?

I thought that by rising Voltage and Amperage at Power Source will drive it to the correct deflect Max Angle...and I have not tested that option yet...still putting together comm switch wirings...but according to your post...even if I reach the right deflections...I would be spending too much power to drive it properly.


Thanks in advance


Regards


Ufopolitics

Hi Ufo,

You are correct that the increase in impedance does restrict the current flow. And yes no matter how many amps are available they cannot enter the circuit.

There are 3 ways you can overcome this problem. The first way is of course to just reduce the speed of the brush which will of course lower the frequency. Since you want an output of 60 hz this is not a good option. Another way is to lower the inductance of the part G. This will allow you to operate at a higher frequency with lower impedance. You can either reduce the number of turns on part G or remove some of the core material by using less ferrite material by using only 2 ferrite rings instead of 3 or what ever way you can find to do that.

Another thing you can do as you surmised is to raise the voltage as you increase the frequency. This will of course increase your power input requirement some but remember you are only increasing it enough to get the current to the level you need. The increased impedance at the higher frequency is still going to limit the amount of current so the current is not going to go any higher that what you allow by the amount of voltage you apply.

Sorry for the slow response but I was out of town all day yesterday.

Hope this info helps a little.

Regards,
Carroll

[hanon1492]

RELATION BETWEEN GEOMETRY AND MAXIMUM/MINIMUM CURRENT

Figuera device : two electromagnets oppossing forces in balance (in unison) moving along the induced coil length .

Electromagnet force equation:


This post describes how two electromagnets forces are balanced and how the plane of magnetic lines collision is moved depending on the ratio of max/min currents used and the length ratio of inducer/induced coils. In order to achieve a change in the electromagnet force two factor are needed: current change (I) and air path change (x). If air path (R+x for one inducer and R+1+x for the other inducer) is constant then no movement is achieved because the force is then independent of the air path between the poles of the electromagnets and then no relation exists between the forces and the spatial dimension. Note that the electromagnet force equation just takes into consideration the air path between its poles because the air path is the high reluctance step compared to the low reluctance step along the magnetic steel. In fact both electromagnets forces search for balance and find the spatial point "x" where both forces are equal and then move the collision plane to that point "x" as response of the diference of current intensities applied in each electromagnet.

The movement along the induced coil is just the response to search for equal forces: F_1 = F_2



At lines movement reversals the near balance forces are then completely balanced in order to provoke the movement reversal ( F_1 = F_2 ). Being R the length ratio of inducer/induced ( R = Length_inducer / Length_induced ) , the equation which relates the currents in the electromagnets with the movement along the induced coil length is:

I_1 / (R+x) = I_2 / (R+1-x)

Which at max/min limits (x=0 or x = 1, the geometrical limits of the induced coil) we get:


I_max / I_min <= ( R + 1 ) / R




Under the ideal conditions assumed to get this result if the current ratio is higher than that limit, (R+1)/R, then the magnetic lines are moved outside of the induced coil extremes and then induction is stopped. Therefore, as a guideline, the current max/min ratio must be always below that value to guarantee that magnetic lines are always inside the induced coil limits.


Link to this image in PDF format

If the lengths in inducer and induced are the same (Length ratio, R = 1) then the limit value for current ratio is (R+1)/R = = (1+1)/1 = 2 . If we take as reference the 1908 patent drawing dimensions where inducers are longer than induced coils and aprox. R = 2, then the limit value is (R+1)/R = (2+1)/2= 3/2 = 1.5

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

This is quite different than the straight open core version. However I see what I think is unintended consequence that may throw a ringer into your pot.

From designing coils which would operate from a fixed voltage supply, often referred to as shunt coils, I learned that simply changing the number of turns did not change the excitation (mmf). I see this as the case with the coils on your toroid cores.

Probably the easiest way is to use example. Say your coil has 25 turns (T). 5 T are in the minimum area leaving 20 T in the brush sweep area. 10 taps means each tap has 2 T or 2 T/tap. Assume each T (turn) is 1 Ω. Then the total 25 T coil is 25 Ω. Assume a constant 50 V supply. Now that yields 2 A per Ohm's Law. The excitation, mmf is then 25 T * 2 A = 50 AT (Ampere Turns). Pretty straight forward steady state calculation.

Now the brush moves by 5 taps on the commutator. Those 5 taps or 10 T are now unused or can be considered as cut off the coil leaving 5 taps or 10 T plus the 5 T in the minimum area for a total of 15 T active in the coil. At 1 Ω per T, the active coil is 15 Ω. Keeping the 50 V supply, we see 3.33 A in the active coil. Excitation or mmf = 15 T * 3.33 A = 50 AT. That is the same as the full 25 T coil before we moved the brush. In fact, the brush position makes no difference in the excitation (AT) just in the current and inductance.

Before we get into inductance, the constant excitation regardless of the comm brush position means there is a constant flux in the toroid core. I suspect that you will disagree with the constant flux statement, so it would (will?) be very interesting to see a model and test.

On the subject of inductance I think I'll just post up an excellent reference which helps me visualize the situation. The change in the inductance may provide interesting profiles on the current but the the constant flux precludes induction. Whether or not you can manage to excite in such a way (primarily by frequency) to cause changing flux to cut the secondary is doubtful in my opinion. But like I said, I'd love to know for sure.



Regards,

bi

Hello Bistander and again, thanks for your analysis.

Your explanation does make sense to me from the plain, single layer coil setup...but this is not what I am trying to reach here...

See, like I wrote before, my goal is to be able to generate mainly, a very Strong Magnetic Field expansion and contraction within same core, no matter its geometry and with static coils.

And the way I am planning to build this is not necessarily by a single layer coil with taps like Part G operates....What I am looking for is to build a more complex series of coils in sequence based on several layers and many A/T, in order that when it turns on, it generates a stronger magnetic field which is immediately attached to the previous one, because of its N/S>N/S>N/S chain arrangement...and so on.

This sequenced coils will expand and retract the magnetic field very accurately through the iron core geometry (whichever we choose) by their stepping back-forth ON-OFF action, while never collapsing the main field which is retained always at the "Minimal Retracting Coil" which would be always ON and would be based on a "workable resistance value" allowing coil not to heat up.

Then the "Approach" and "Recede" of the Magnetic Field related to the Induced...would be very "Physical" and accurately taken by the turning on-off of the sequenced coils.

I believe -not sure though- that a DC linear motor works similar to this related to the static coils which turn in sequential series actuation to move the "lineal rotor"...well, if this is the case, then we will have something similar to Two Linear Motors Stators facing each others in a synchronized back-forth movement of their fields-sequence.


Hope you understand now what I am trying to achieve.



Regards



Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Load Secondary affecting primaries fluctuations...

OK UFO, understand that, what about when you load the secondaries heavy, being on the same core, would that effect the primary induction?.

Regards Cornboy.

Hello Cornboy,

The way a Toroid Transformer works may help to answer your question...even though I understand in a basic design the secondary goes below primary...but there are many other options when it is the other way around.

As me...I do not have an answer to your question until I test it myself. I have been trying to make a fusion between Cook's device (related to primaries-secondaries structures) and Figuera switching Controller driving it.

Cook's device have primary at inner core and secondary is at outer...

Within the testing possibilities I am also looking at making the Cook's Dual Cores, where inner is just a rod where primaries are, and outer a cylinder tubing for secondaries.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Analysis

Same Concept as shown on previous post but applied just to a Toroid Core...and a twenty (20) element commutator:

Cycle 1, Upper Brush Rotation:

[IMG][/IMG]

Cycle 2 Lower Brush Rotation:

[IMG][/IMG]

For simplicity of understanding of the drawings...Two Toroids and Two Sets of Windings are shown on each toroid...but it is ONLY ONE TOROID...and Four Sets of Primaries Interacting with each others...same Interlaced-Overlapped method...


Understanding Two or more sets of Secondaries will be wound on top of each pair of primaries, comprehending the length given by the Fields Displacement...

On above two images we are moving fields at unison at both ends...and all depends where we set the 1-10 terminals...as it could be opposite fluctuations of the two fields on each side of toroid core...


I ordered and I have it already...a second Toroid Core to wind it this way...


That is how much I trust all these diagrams would work out...


Regards


Ufopolitics

Hi Ufo,

This is quite different than the straight open core version. However I see what I think is unintended consequence that may throw a ringer into your pot.

From designing coils which would operate from a fixed voltage supply, often referred to as shunt coils, I learned that simply changing the number of turns did not change the excitation (mmf). I see this as the case with the coils on your toroid cores.

Probably the easiest way is to use example. Say your coil has 25 turns (T). 5 T are in the minimum area leaving 20 T in the brush sweep area. 10 taps means each tap has 2 T or 2 T/tap. Assume each T (turn) is 1 Ω. Then the total 25 T coil is 25 Ω. Assume a constant 50 V supply. Now that yields 2 A per Ohm's Law. The excitation, mmf is then 25 T * 2 A = 50 AT (Ampere Turns). Pretty straight forward steady state calculation.

Now the brush moves by 5 taps on the commutator. Those 5 taps or 10 T are now unused or can be considered as cut off the coil leaving 5 taps or 10 T plus the 5 T in the minimum area for a total of 15 T active in the coil. At 1 Ω per T, the active coil is 15 Ω. Keeping the 50 V supply, we see 3.33 A in the active coil. Excitation or mmf = 15 T * 3.33 A = 50 AT. That is the same as the full 25 T coil before we moved the brush. In fact, the brush position makes no difference in the excitation (AT) just in the current and inductance.

Before we get into inductance, the constant excitation regardless of the comm brush position means there is a constant flux in the toroid core. I suspect that you will disagree with the constant flux statement, so it would (will?) be very interesting to see a model and test.

On the subject of inductance I think I'll just post up an excellent reference which helps me visualize the situation. The change in the inductance may provide interesting profiles on the current but the the constant flux precludes induction. Whether or not you can manage to excite in such a way (primarily by frequency) to cause changing flux to cut the secondary is doubtful in my opinion. But like I said, I'd love to know for sure.



Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Impedance issue at High Speed.

OK, Now I understand what you mean. The inductance of part G is acting as a choke to limit the current through the primary windings. Of course this means that part G is going to be affected by the frequency of the changing signal which is set by the speed of the brushes. As the speed of the brushes goes up the current allowed through part G will go down because of the increase in the impedance of the circuit. Is this the way you understand the circuit?

Respectfully,
Carroll

Hello Citfta,

Referring just to the bold out statement above...I understand Impedance as a type of resistance against current flow, developed because of the changing currents directions...and as I interpret your comment above...the higher the speed the higher this resistance/impedance "grows"...therefore, the less currents allowed to Part G, so, no matter how many amps at source, they will not be allowed in...Am I right so far?

The reason why I made this specific post, is because you are perfectly correct and dead on what is happening on my set up...and that I have addressed before...as I see it in the Magnetic Field Decay in the Max Deflecting Angles at higher speeds.

When system is at lower speeds the max deflect angles are perfectly spread to max screen position as the low field declines also properly...resulting in very good and strong induction at secondaries.

But instead of having an increase when I accelerate towards the required operating speed (3600 RPM's) system reduces induction considerably. As I notice the fluctuation angles decrease.

My question is...Is there a way to avoid or at least to minimize this Impedance effect from happening?

I thought that by rising Voltage and Amperage at Power Source will drive it to the correct deflect Max Angle...and I have not tested that option yet...still putting together comm switch wirings...but according to your post...even if I reach the right deflections...I would be spending too much power to drive it properly.


Thanks in advance


Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Closed vs open

This pic is for some people that are still fuzzy in their pursuit in the figuera device.
while the drawing is crude and the Part G is a closed core it still gets the point across between the exciting system and the Generating system.


Exciting within BLUE lines.
Generating within RED lines.

MM

The part G in the diagram appears not to be closed core.

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Bistander,

The main purpose of analysis is intended to be from the Magnetic Field and Inductance stand point...as resistance in all the short coils is almost negligible.

About current reversing...please take another look at it...

Looking at the Coils Circuit only (not at commutator), it is basically two negative feeds (same negative, from same source) on each extreme end coils, which are longer and have more turns...from there it derives into short coils which have no end connection, but only fed momentarily by positive brush displacement...and so, the brush movement would be turning ON some sequential coils, while turning OFF some other coils in the opposite rail.

I thought that when brush turns off a coil, by passing its tap to next coil...current will not keep traveling towards that "Dead End" where there is no connection to negative??

Isn't that turned Off Coil really Off?



First, I believe you are jumping in your analysis when starting by setting brush at the "in-betweens" contacts...before analyzing behavior when at each solid segment...but it don't matter...let's do it like that:

You are putting Brush at 5-4 (12 O'Clock), yes and so positive travels downwards to contacts 12-13 through jumpers.

[IMG][/IMG]

Then you wrote:



So, according to your analysis above, Equal currents would be traveling left and right on both gold and green circuits?

Bistander, please take a second look at the Coils Circuits again...

The Green Circuit does NOT have a negative connected at its Left End, it is open.

The Gold Circuit does not have a Negative connected at its Right End, it is open.

Why then current should travel towards those two dead ends with same intensity (equal) as if they have a negative "waiting" like the other end which does have a negative connected?

Let's see a Detail of that position of brush at 5-4/12-13:

[IMG][/IMG]

Ok, this is the way I interpret this connection...

The Red Coils on both Circuits means they are ON...all others still with green-gold colors are OFF.

The Red Arrows (top towards Left and bottom towards Right) is the way I see the currents displacement towards the Negative Voltage Potential.

Sorry, but I do not see Currents flowing towards a dead end where there is no Voltage connection.

The Blue Circle is where the Repulse Field is located with that brush positioning.




Let's first analyze the previous positioning of brush (5-4) and get to an agreement before getting to this one above...


Regards and thanks


Ufopolitics

Sorry Bistander, please disregard my previous post (the quoted post above)...my bad, I failed to see the negative connection through the jumped terminals...so they are at no "dead ends"...sorry!!

I will go over it again and repair that...the point is to make it a real dead end, so coils DO turn OFF and ON.

No good like this and thanks for your analysis


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

Looking at it from the standpoint of resistance only; that is as a series of voltage divider circuits as the brush rotates, current reverses through some of the coils at certain positions of the brush on the commutator. I think that would rule it out for the intended purpose.

Hello Bistander,

The main purpose of analysis is intended to be from the Magnetic Field and Inductance stand point...as resistance in all the short coils is almost negligible.

About current reversing...please take another look at it...

Looking at the Coils Circuit only (not at commutator), it is basically two negative feeds (same negative, from same source) on each extreme end coils, which are longer and have more turns...from there it derives into short coils which have no end connection, but only fed momentarily by positive brush displacement...and so, the brush movement would be turning ON some sequential coils, while turning OFF some other coils in the opposite rail.

I thought that when brush turns off a coil, by passing its tap to next coil...current will not keep traveling towards that "Dead End" where there is no connection to negative??

Isn't that turned Off Coil really Off?

For instance: Put the brush on comm segments 4 and 5. Then positive voltage is conducted to taps 4, 5, 12 & 13. Taps 1, 8, 9 & 16 are all at equal potential lower than supply positive but above supply negative. You get a symetrical divider network with equal currents flowing to the right thru both gold and green coils and to the left thru both gold and green coils.

First, I believe you are jumping in your analysis when starting by setting brush at the "in-betweens" contacts...before analyzing behavior when at each solid segment...but it don't matter...let's do it like that:

You are putting Brush at 5-4 (12 O'Clock), yes and so positive travels downwards to contacts 12-13 through jumpers.

[IMG][/IMG]

Then you wrote:

You get a symetrical divider network with equal currents flowing to the right thru both gold and green coils and to the left thru both gold and green coils.

So, according to your analysis above, Equal currents would be traveling left and right on both gold and green circuits?

Bistander, please take a second look at the Coils Circuits again...

The Green Circuit does NOT have a negative connected at its Left End, it is open.

The Gold Circuit does not have a Negative connected at its Right End, it is open.

Why then current should travel towards those two dead ends with same intensity (equal) as if they have a negative "waiting" like the other end which does have a negative connected?

Let's see a Detail of that position of brush at 5-4/12-13:

[IMG][/IMG]

Ok, this is the way I interpret this connection...

The Red Coils on both Circuits means they are ON...all others still with green-gold colors are OFF.

The Red Arrows (top towards Left and bottom towards Right) is the way I see the currents displacement towards the Negative Voltage Potential.

Sorry, but I do not see Currents flowing towards a dead end where there is no Voltage connection.

The Blue Circle is where the Repulse Field is located with that brush positioning.

When the brush sits on segments 7 & 8, then current reverses thru green coils between 7 & 6 and 6 & 5.

See the issue?

bi

Let's first analyze the previous positioning of brush (5-4) and get to an agreement before getting to this one above...


Regards and thanks


Ufopolitics

[Cornboy 555]

Thanks Cornboy, but I do understand, better than he does, and I think that is his problem. He can't BS me with technobabble. Like inductance of flat wire. I hope you didn't fall for that one, or at least didn't spend a lot of effort and money on it.

bi

Bistander, what i do or don't do, is of my own choosing, i am completely responsible for my own actions, you come across to me like a child boxed into a corner.

I will be using flat wire, for my G and for my primaries, and one of my secondaries, it is my choice for a number of reasons.

Regards Cornboy.

[bistander]

Bistander, i think he really want's you to understand, hence the change.

Regards Cornboy.

Thanks Cornboy, but I do understand, better than he does, and I think that is his problem. He can't BS me with technobabble. Like inductance of flat wire. I hope you didn't fall for that one, or at least didn't spend a lot of effort and money on it.

bi

[Cornboy 555]

Nope friend...only if they be attract fields...not NN or SS

Regards

Ufopolitics

OK UFO, understand that, what about when you load the secondaries heavy, being on the same core, would that effect the primary induction?.

Regards Cornboy.

[Cornboy 555]

Why then did MM attempt to change the wording from 'onto' to 'into'?

Sorry I ever brought it up. I guess you just have to expect sloppy writing from him.

Bistander, i think he really want's you to understand, hence the change.

Regards Cornboy.