Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera

[Elcheapo]

resistors

The input wave-forms to my 2 coils is exactly like that shown in post 973
(original). But the 2 voltages cancel each other. So I get no output.
I am driving these coils with just 2 npn mosfets rated at 50 amps and an
rds (on resistance) of only .022 ohms.
So very little heat is developed. Just about all the power goes to the coils. Ya with 19 awg wire, the coils get a little hot.

Except for those who are unable to build a decent circuit, why would anyone even use these power wasting resistors?

[marathonman]

Resistors

This my friend is the vary thing i have been harping on since i built my first demo device. why use them when they waist power and get hot and that was exactly what i told the fool that bought my demo.

while part G may be a little troublesome at first to get right, i think in the long run it will be to our advantage to explore this avenue. well at least i am already pursuing this avenue regardless if any one else chooses to use resistors or not. without part G's core, the device will never self sustain.

Elcheapo;
Quote
"But the 2 voltages cancel each other. So I get no output."

What do you mean two voltages??? and if they cancel each other they can't be like those wave forms.

[Mario]

MM,

what would you recommend, how much should the lowest point be with regards to the highest field/current be. Half? 2/3?

Mario

[marathonman]

Flucuations

At no time should the currant ever be taken down lower then half way let alone to zero.
at a 1 to 1 ratio, where the secondary is equal to the primary in length, the reduction will be closer to half. with a ratio of 1 to 1.6 it only has to be taken down 1/3rd of the way to clear the secondary, as the secondary is shorter with less space to travel.

if the currant is dropped down to far, the time it takes for the field to build up to full strength is to long to get any beneficial results from it as induction will fall to the peak of the rising electromagnet.

the good news is, if you build part G with a demo, you can use it for your final build if the ratio is kept the same between your primary and secondary with little adjustments.

please keep in mind that part G controls the currant not the primaries, so wind your primaries with as little ohms and induction as possible. if your primaries have high induction, the response time to currant changes will be very slow and will adversely affect the performance of the device.

PS. Hanon, Bistander i very correct about the variac as would be the straight core also.

[Mario]

MM, thanks. I'll keep these directions in mind.

Mario

[hanon1492]

The input wave-forms to my 2 coils is exactly like that shown in post 973
(original). But the 2 voltages cancel each other. So I get no output.
I am driving these coils with just 2 npn mosfets rated at 50 amps and an
rds (on resistance) of only .022 ohms.

As MM asked, I myself do not understand either what the 2 voltages means? I suppose you are just using one induced coil, dont you?

Also I suppose that you are using same poles North - North in the inducers . If for any chance you missed the episode about the right polarity and you were using the wrong one (north-south) then you wont get any output because both signals compensate each other. Please check the polarities. How many turns are you using? Which intensity (max and min) are you feeding to the electromagnets?


MM, Could you give some directions to design a proper magnetic resistance part G as function of the electromagnets used in the system? How many turns should it have? What wire diameter to use with different electromagnets? Which core area is required? Which mass of metal core (or length or diameter) is required? I have read that the energy stored in an inducoir is equal to 1/2•L•I^2, therefore it depends on the inductance and the intensity. How does it relates to the receding electromagnets? Is the same design used for toroidal cores that for straight cores? Any book recommended?

[hanon1492]

Thanks Hanon!

So, if we are working with 50V and 2 Amps that is 100W of power...then resistors must be within that range to play safe...

If we take as design that half of the voltage drop is in the electromagnets and the other half in the resistors, then the whole sets of resistors must support 100/2 = 50 watts. Therefore each of the 7 seven resistor must have a design for a wattage as 50/7 = 7 watts per piece as a quick and roug estimation. I bought my resistors for 25 watt dissipation.

[Ufopolitics]

Making a Diagram Guide?

Hanon and MM,

I think it would be best to build a basic model to start building with some approx spec 's...and anyone of Us could make a full diagram with spec's

If I understand correctly...if I build the Part G Iron Core, its mass must be Greater -at least- than One Primary Iron Core...is this correct?

And as Ohms in Primaries versus ohms at Core I believe the same rule of thumb for single resistors applies right?

I am going to build the core at G Part wired instead of using resistors...you guys are right, do not make sense to even waste the money.

The way I see this is pretty simple, we have at least one side of primaries stored in core, never the two together...so I am supposing its mass should be approx to one primary mass...maybe a bit more to play safe.

I believe what is happening to ElCheapo is that he has the waves correct but they are taking place not off phase, so both fields are collapsing at center instead of moving...as I doubt he is using N-S config...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[marathonman]

stumbled

MM, Could you give some directions to design a proper magnetic resistance part G as function of the electromagnets used in the system? How many turns should it have? What wire diameter to use with different electromagnets? Which core area is required? Which mass of metal core (or length or diameter) is required? I have read that the energy stored in an inducoir is equal to 1/2•L•I^2, therefore it depends on the inductance and the intensity. How does it relates to the receding electromagnets? Is the same design used for toroidal cores that for straight cores? Any book recommended?


This is the only week spot i have, the math to calculate the proper inductance and resistant values for a given size core, given the previous amperage values of the primaries you use those values to calculate wire size, number of winding's ect. to build part G.

i'll use the previous posted as an example, say your increasing is 5 amp and decreasing is 2.5 amp, that is 750 watts plus 500 watts extra head room. so with 1250 va core size in mind you then can calculate from there with the voltage you will be using.

as Doug went completely silent before i could extract the math to calculate it, i have been studying what i can about inductors but it is a slow prospect.

as i gathered from him and my own research, the wire used is thick rectangle wire as the patent says "commutator bars" are actually the wire i just mentioned. so that tells me from that, my own thoughts and from your video that the winding's are few. he used 1/4 " rectangle wire for his part G then adjusted for balance.

and yes the calculations as i was told would be the same for toroidal and straight cores.

when i finish part G, i will have to test amperage to see how close i am. as long as i am near 5 amp i am good to go but if i am off i will have to rewind and that is a frightening proposition because thick rectangle wire is a ***** to wind around a toroid.

that is why i suggested using a straight core because it is easier to wind and adjust.

UFO;

you are correct in your assumption as the mass must equal the Set N high side primary power requirements PLUS the set S low side primary power requirements Plus at least 500 va over as head room. PLUS wire must be thicker than used for primaries.
rule of thumb, power supply must be the sum of all lower branches using power, plus headroom.


MM

[marathonman]

Arg !

So basically what we are dealing with here is a variable inductor that changes the core position that increases the permeability, increasing the magnetic field and the inductance thus the impedance, not from moving the core but through changing the contact points and winding count from the brush movement over time.
V/i is impedance. Maybe you could integrate V/i as a function of time over one period (one complete cycle) to calculate the average impedance of the inductor at a certain frequency. One period = 1/frequency in Hertz but then how to calculate the addition of winding's as the brush rotates thus adding on one side and subtracting on the other.

i know the core i am working on will have multiple taps to increase or decrease the number of turns included in the circuit, to change the inductance/impedance. all i have to do is properly switch the transistors and that will be accomplished as is with the brushed part G.

i must find out as this won't do as it stands.


MM

[Elcheapo]

cancellation

MM,

"What do you mean two voltages??? and if they cancel each other they can't be like those wave forms."

I should have said the two currents going to coils S and N.
The 2 coils are driven in unison in 8 steps of 1 amp. 1 coil up, the other down.

Looking at the wave-form, with one coil up by the same amount that the
other is down gave me good reason to suspect cancellation and
that is why I'm getting no output from my secondary.

But here is the actual coil currents for S and N.

Step 1: s=9 amp, n=2 amp
Step 8: s=2 amp, n=9 amp

Stupid ME suddenly realizes that something else is causing the output problem.

Thanks MM for jogging my stupid mind.

[Cadman]

Part G

Hanon, MM,

I have just finished a spreadsheet to use for a part G. I decided to treat the resistance like a toroid auto-transformer with one end of the winding going to each of two inducer coils. The auto-transformer will have at least 8 taps so will basically be 8 series wound coils on the core. I may use 16 taps just to give a variable range of 8. For switching I will use a separate rotating commutator to feed the supply voltage to one tap at a time, make before break. A solid state circuit could do the switching too.

The formula is from an old book on auto-transformer design:
Practical turns calculation: T = supply volts x 10^8 / in^2 core area x 56,500 x 4.44 x frequency. This gives the minimum number of turns.
56,500 is the flux strength in gauss per square inch. The wire size is determined by the amp load passing through the winding. The formula is for AC current but may work for varying DC.

It will take me a couple of weeks to build & test it since I have yet to build the switch.
Feel free to try it for yourself but keep in mind NO GUARANTEES.

Regards,
CM

[hanon1492]

he used 1/4 " rectangle wire for his part G then adjusted for balance.

1/4" rectangle wire is huge. It has a section (39.0 mm2) similar to awg 1 wire (42 mm2) which may withstand up to 100 amperes !! . This is a lot of power unless the supply voltage from the electromagnets to the part G will be low, as for example 12 volts.

Where is located the change of wire diameter? There is no sense to use certain wire in the electromagnets and then suddenly change to a wire of such diameter in the part G (unless you connect the electromagnets in parallel but I was thinking on series connection). I must be missing something here. Please advice.

I suppose that here the rule for transformers turns ratio to voltage applies for the electromagnets and part G to get the voltage in each side. Not sure anyway.

[Ufopolitics]

That is a pretty good way to go...

Hanon, MM,

I have just finished a spreadsheet to use for a part G. I decided to treat the resistance like a toroid auto-transformer with one end of the winding going to each of two inducer coils. The auto-transformer will have at least 8 taps so will basically be 8 series wound coils on the core. I may use 16 taps just to give a variable range of 8. For switching I will use a separate rotating commutator to feed the supply voltage to one tap at a time, make before break. A solid state circuit could do the switching too.

The formula is from an old book on auto-transformer design:
Practical turns calculation: T = supply volts x 10^8 / in^2 core area x 56,500 x 4.44 x frequency. This gives the minimum number of turns.
56,500 is the flux strength in gauss per square inch. The wire size is determined by the amp load passing through the winding. The formula is for AC current but may work for varying DC.

It will take me a couple of weeks to build & test it since I have yet to build the switch.
Feel free to try it for yourself but keep in mind NO GUARANTEES.

Regards,
CM

Hello Cadman,

I have thought of that arrangement as well...tapping the Toroid G then wiring it to a commutator where the switching takes place.

This way it will avoid to smooth-round the rectangle wires on a heavy iron toroid without a center...plus isolate each space in between them, being perfectly even...it is just like making a huge commutator from scratch!

However, We must realize that the more taps at the Auto-Transformer the smoother the transitions would take place...just like the more resistors we set in the circuit, the smoother. Therefore, the best commutator should be the one which have more elements.

At the same token, since MM said it works the same for toroids as for straight core G...I rather wind a straight, same kind of core geometry as primaries, this way it would be better to calculate area...And as you know, winding a closed toroid with heavy wire is really a struggling and painful process my friend.

If you are doing a closed toroid transformer, just be careful with both end taps to both N-S Primaries, related to a circular rotation at comm... it shouldn't be two High Ends next to each others in the rotation, or it will cause the magnetic field to "jump" from High to High which is never suppose to happen...I believe ...

Just sharing some thoughts with you, since I am working on a similar set up.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Cadman]

Hello Ufo,

There are a few things I want to determine with this part G test, using materials I already have on hand. First of course is to test the formula from the book with AC and then DC, then to see if the turns can be on more than one layer of windings. Plus, if the spreadsheet is accurate then we have a handy tool to use.

Using a straight core is OK but I really think the magnetic circuit needs to be closed.

Using a 16 pole commutator, si steel toroid, 24 vac trafo, and wire on hand each step can be anywhere from 12 to 19 turns for a single layer winding. 19 turns at a time is a whole lot easier to wind than 152 turns.

Regards,
CM

PS. The formula is for a closed magnetic circuit. It doesn't need to be a toroid.