Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera

[Dwane]

Hi Guys,
I have been wondering about the efficiency of the armature field coils. Using uniform fields in the armature might not be giving us a maximum definition of flux at the primary coils. I also wondered if they need to be rewound so as to reflect the change in induction possible anticipated by Clemente. The object that keeps springing to my mind is the notion that what Clemente specifically wanted was a change in field strength that deliberately forces a gradual structural change to the magnetic flux created. That is, the "G" rotor is where all the action is. The field coils of the primary are all fixed, whether there is one coil or 20 coils. The flux coming from the "G" rotor is what creates the field dynamic. I hope I have made myself clear.

My Washing machine motor is in the post!

Regards

Dwane

[seaad]

Part G different principles

https://vimeo.com/178144785

[bistander]

Field coils on partG

...

Take a look at below image:



Now you are very familiar how these motors work...but I will add some details:

When these motors run with DC, their brushes are fixed positive and negative, or could be a Positive PWM, to obtain a constant speed...When running on AC, brushes swap polarity at cycles, BUT ALSO the Stator Fields, reason why they run on both currents.

However on Citfta's Design as above, adding the two stator coils in series to each brush, brushes ALTERNATE POTENTIALS between Hi-Lo Positives, AS WELL as Stator Coils...and in my "rough" opinion about this circuit...

I believe by using this diagram-circuit, we would be switching the interacting flux from one half of the stator to the other...which is all about same flux...just displacing through air gap at high RPM's.

Do you think motor-controller above should run?, lousy but move in order to "assist" prime mover?
...

Hi Ufo,

I don't think it'll work well to energize field coils (or use PM field) on an armature modded to run as partG. Doing so will generate voltage and "extra" current in the primary coils not consistent with the tone of Figuera, and cause shaft torque and load current in the prime mover of partG which is intolerable IMO. The steel poles in the stator complete the magnetic circuit around the armature so contribute to high inductance in the armature coils, which you want.

I think for a good partG you need high inductance and low resistance. When citfta shorted his stator coils he likely effectively increased the reactance of the armature coils giving him a favorable outcome.

There may be a mechanical means to increase the inductance of this modded arm partG. Motors run the stator and armature fields in quadrature. Since our machine doesn't use the stator field, the steel structure position isn't critical for field interaction. A reposition could significantly reduce reluctance in the modded armature magnetic circuit which then will increase inductance of the coils. To easily test this, simply rotate the brush holder plate 90° (for 2-pole machine).

FWIW, I can't envision a re-wind being helpful at this stage of development.

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Bi and Ufo,

I like my modified motor because it lends itself so well to a lot of different experimental ideas. One idea I tried yesterday was to short out each of the field coils by just connecting the leads together. What really surprised me was that when both field coils were shorted the output went up slightly more than double what it was when the coils were just idly sitting there. And as far as I could tell without connecting some good meters the input power to the slip ring did not go up at all. And the input power to my driving motor did not go up either. Unfortunately before I could continue working and studying on this result I had to stop and go help my son on some projects.

Later,
Carroll

Hello Citfta,

I like it too...and yes, there are way more possibilities to enhance and test...

Your result above, just by shorting stator coils (or field coils) were beyond ANY simple explanation!!

Just need to find a good starting universal motor to work with...and yes, I will eventually look for one easier to take off winding (that is NOT SOAKED IN RESIN) and redoing it according to our requirements.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Series Stator Coils added...

Hello Bistander,

Yes, I understand your concern...however, a good way to see this is by considering one brush would be "more positive" than the other when is nearer or contacting the directly positive element, which makes other brush to be "less positive" or "more negative"...understand?...but you've said that : "potential difference".

Anyways wanted to add more material to your thinking (hoping not stressing your laundry...)

Take a look at below image:



Now you are very familiar how these motors work...but I will add some details:

When these motors run with DC, their brushes are fixed positive and negative, or could be a Positive PWM, to obtain a constant speed...When running on AC, brushes swap polarity at cycles, BUT ALSO the Stator Fields, reason why they run on both currents.

However on Citfta's Design as above, adding the two stator coils in series to each brush, brushes ALTERNATE POTENTIALS between Hi-Lo Positives, AS WELL as Stator Coils...and in my "rough" opinion about this circuit...

I believe by using this diagram-circuit, we would be switching the interacting flux from one half of the stator to the other...which is all about same flux...just displacing through air gap at high RPM's.

Do you think motor-controller above should run?, lousy but move in order to "assist" prime mover?

I understand it is all about getting the right polarizations and timing...etc,etc.


Regards, and hope you had finished your laundry by now.


Ufopolitics

EDIT: OH!!...Almost forget!!!...What about Generation of Energy (to Figuera's Primaries) from above design when rotated by prime mover?...I could also keep going by adding a small magnet to one of the armature bars...to act as magnetic reminiscence...plus a Capacitor instead of a battery, etc,etc...

Anyways, All this... I want to TEST in a near future...only way to find out the correct answers.

[Dwane]

Hi Dwane,

I am not sure what you mean. The picture of my modified motor connected to the MY scooter motor is still there in post number 2781 of this thread.

Carroll

Hi citfta,
My apologies, I have had a bad weekend. Things are a bit clearer today. I have confused this with something else I think.

Anyway, I personally appreciate the contribution you have made to my understanding on this device.

Regards

Dwane

[bistander]

Modded arm partG

...which travels through armature via one wire.
...

I don't think so.

Hi Ufo,


Referring to figure (b), as you say "Citfta sends the source positive through a wire from slip ring to just one element of commutator...", which could be at 12 o'clock or where the blue arrow is. There are two paths for the current to flow in the armature from that comm bar; thru coils a & i to brush at 3 o'clock, and thru coils b & c to brush at 9 o'clock. Each brush is connected to opposite ends of the primary coil assembly.

So there are at least two armature current paths resulting from citfta's mod. And that is desired; 2 paths, like partG should have. My concern is the third path* thru the modded armature, thru coils d, e, f, g, and h, from brush to brush. The two brushes will have differing potential or voltage except at one or two positions per revolution, so current will flow in this third path. How will this affect the output voltage function?

To stop current in this third path, I wonder about cutting coil f. Easy enough to try I guess.

I see citfta and Ufo have posted while I've been composing this (and doing laundry). So I'll put this up and address some other items after I study what those guys say.

Regards,

bi

{edit} * third path. Member seaad has posted a diagram depicting the 3 paths. I added it here for clarity. Thanks seaad. Also thanks to Ufopolitics for his excellent graphics.

[citfta]

Hello Bi and Ufo,

Yes Bi, as Ufo has posted that is the correct way I have modified the motor. That was only an idea to test to see if I thought it might work in place of building a part G from scratch. I think it would probably be improved by rewinding the armature to more conform to the original configuration Figuera used. But even if you rewound the armature that would still be much easier than starting from scratch I think.

I am curious as to what you might think could be an issue with this. My testing so far has shown that it does in fact produce an alternating rough sine wave with 180 degree phase difference. There probably needs to be another inductor in series with the input power lead in order to reduce some of the spiking seen in my scope shots. The idea Ufo suggested of using the existing field windings as individual inductors for each primary coil may be the solution for the spiky signal. Although I am not so sure the spikes are even a problem because when I load down the secondary the secondary signal shows no spikes.

I like my modified motor because it lends itself so well to a lot of different experimental ideas. One idea I tried yesterday was to short out each of the field coils by just connecting the leads together. What really surprised me was that when both field coils were shorted the output went up slightly more than double what it was when the coils were just idly sitting there. And as far as I could tell without connecting some good meters the input power to the slip ring did not go up at all. And the input power to my driving motor did not go up either. Unfortunately before I could continue working and studying on this result I had to stop and go help my son on some projects.

Later,
Carroll

[Ufopolitics]

A Quick drawing about Citfta's Part G

Hello to All,

Guess you all would be lost without my graphics...

Here is a quick drawing of Citfta's Part G:



OK, now you guys must realize that all coils in the armature of a Universal Motor (like in any other brushed motor) are "typically" OVERLAPPED, and not like represented on diagram above, I did it like that for purposes of clarity in the whole graphic.

Whole Armature is contained within the black circle.

On the center the gold smaller ring is the CONTINUOUS SLIP RING, where the Small Positive Brush is connected to Source Positive.

We could see a gold wire running from Slip Ring to just ONE ELEMENT of the Commutator, that I painted RED with a + sign within.

Commutator is based on a 16 elements as in Figuera's Patent from 1908, brushes are contacting Two Elements as also directed by Figuera, not allowing Field to Collapse.

Say we are rotating whole armature in a CW direction or as represented by "R"...Then, Primary 1 would start the short period of MAX ENERGIZING, while Primary 2 would be at it LOWEST ENERGIZING...

Advancing rotation 180º then the opposite will take effect, like seen below:



Hope is clearer now.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Hi citfta,

Still thinking about your armature partG idea. I found a diagram of a 2-pole armature which can help visualize the operation and modification.


From: https://www.nidec.com/en-EU/technolo...r/basic/00014/

Diagram (b) is best help. It is depicted as a motor armature with brushes connected to a battery. For use as partG, replace the battery with the 2 primary coils in series, with the power source connected to the junction of the 2 primary coils. Now the other power source lead connects to commutator bar where armature coils a & b are connected. Right?

I think I see an issue but would like to get your agreement with the above before diving into it. I wish I had computer graphics software and skills, but I think the diagram above will suffice for now. I think most of these cheap universal motor armatures will have more comm bars and probably even counts. That really doesn't matter, the diagram can still apply.

Regards,

bi

Hello Bistander,

I think you've got it right...

Citfta sends the source positive through a wire from slip ring to just one element of commutator...which travels through armature via one wire.

I honestly do not see any issues with this design, exactly SAME thing as rotating one positive brush through a fixed commutator.

On previous part G there was an issue with Inductance balancing and I believe on this design could be erradicated if we use one side stator coil en series with one brush as so the other brush in series with opposite stator coil...this way magnetic flux will be forced to stay at the active side only (high).

Just my 2 pennies...


Regards



Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Diagram

Hi Dwane,

I am not sure what you mean. The picture of my modified motor connected to the MY scooter motor is still there in post number 2781 of this thread.

Carroll

Hi citfta,

Still thinking about your armature partG idea. I found a diagram of a 2-pole armature which can help visualize the operation and modification.


From: https://www.nidec.com/en-EU/technolo...r/basic/00014/

Diagram (b) is best help. It is depicted as a motor armature with brushes connected to a battery. For use as partG, replace the battery with the 2 primary coils in series, with the power source connected to the junction of the 2 primary coils. Now the other power source lead connects to commutator bar where armature coils a & b are connected. Right?

I think I see an issue but would like to get your agreement with the above before diving into it. I wish I had computer graphics software and skills, but I think the diagram above will suffice for now. I think most of these cheap universal motor armatures will have more comm bars and probably even counts. That really doesn't matter, the diagram can still apply.

Regards,

bi

[citfta]

Hi Dwane,

I am not sure what you mean. The picture of my modified motor connected to the MY scooter motor is still there in post number 2781 of this thread.

Carroll

[Dwane]

Missing photo

Hi guys,
I come back in to look at the layout using the MY motor and this has disappeared.

So what is serious here?

Dwane

[Dwane]

Hi citfta,
I spend today looking at the patent and my design options. It has occurred to me that you have actually deciphered Clemente's design! With the exception of the dual pole rotor on the "G". What the original patent shows is a switch and coils, literally a commutator and armature coils from a series wound motor!
F...ing brilliant! No wonder he stated that he used parts lying around.

What he has done by removing his field coils and using the armature is to remove the Lenz impediment.

You are a very clever person!!

Regards

Dwane

Dwane

[Dwane]

Yes, that is the kind of motor you want. You will of course need to go back and read my post on how to modify it to work as a part G. The field coils are not used.

Carroll

Hi citfta,
Thanks for the heads up. I can organise one of these motors and follow your instructions. Might take a few days getting one delivered.

Just out of interest, we are not looking for any radiant spikes are we? Just smooth sailing: the ambience being sucked into the secondary coil by the load?

Regards

Dwane