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Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera

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  • Originally posted by Mario View Post
    Hi guys,

    remember one of the first simple experiments we tried? I mean sliding a coil back and forth on a core rod with two strong opposing magnets on its ends?
    Ok, do it again, then short circuit the coil and do it again. Lenz IS at work big time.

    Mario
    Your experiment is a moving generator. Figuera generator is motionless, and therefore it will not suffer from the cogging you are feeling.

    The key on this device is that Figuera achived to create motional induction into a motionless device, without any Lenz effect typical in generators (cogging)

    If you instead of using permanent magnets you had sustitued them by electromagnets at constant field and move them equally as your permanent magnets you would not have detected any increase in the exciter current. The effect of increase i the exciter current is found in transformers when a load is attached: Lenz is shown in transformers by an opposite field which increase the primary current. But generators do not increase the exciter current: just suffer from cogging. Do a motionless generator and you would have skipped this cogging effect...

    Boguslaw: A video identical to the one described by Mario is this one: https://vimeo.com/155371838
    Last edited by hanon1492; 09-14-2016, 02:14 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by hanon1492 View Post
      Your experiment is a moving generator. Figuera generator is motionless, and therefore it will not suffer from the cogging you are feeling.

      The key on this device is that Figuera achived to create motional induction into a motionless device, without any Lenz effect typical in generators (cogging)

      If you instead of using permanent magnets you had sustitued them by electromagnets at constant field and move them equally as your permanent magnets you would not have detected any increase in the exciter current. The effect of increase i the exciter current is found in transformers when a load is attached: Lenz is shown in transformers by an opposite field which increase the primary current. But generators do not increase the exciter current: just suffer from cogging. Do a motionless generator and you would have skipped this cogging effect...
      Sorry Hanon, but that is just not true. Cogging is NOT equal to Lenz or CEMF. Come on, How many pulse motors have you built? Cogging is the braking effect of the PM passing the core. CEMF is the magnetic field created by the current flowing in the induced that counters the inducing field. While you have both in a motor, in a solid state you still have CEMF, and this, if you do the little test is true here as well.

      Mario

      Comment


      • Do you really have an increase/decrease in the exciting current in the electromagnet located in the rotor of any car alternator when the load is increased? Or do it just show a cogging effect that you have to supplement with more mechanical power in just the same amount that the power of the load have increased? Just curious to know ...
        Last edited by hanon1492; 09-14-2016, 03:08 PM.

        Comment


        • Hanon,

          I'm not sure I understand your question correctly. In any PM based motor or generator there is cogging, even if the winding is left open and no current is moving through it. Cogging is due to the effect of the magnet approaching the iron core which it is attracted to, and then it is the effect of the magnet leaving the core, which tries to retain it. So in theory the attraction equals the repulsion, but in reality that isn't true, especially with strong magnets and small gaps. You will get a braking effect. There are ways to smooth it out or reduce it but that's another subject.

          Now if you add a load to the winding of a generator, the counter-electro-magnetic-force (CEMF)will kick in thanks to Lenz's law, and this will be added to whatever is already there in cogging effect.

          Mario

          Comment


          • Alternator question

            Originally posted by hanon1492 View Post
            Do you really have an increase/decrease in the exciting current in the electromagnet located in the rotor of any car alternator when the load is increased? Or do it just show a cogging effect that you have to supplement with more mechanical power in just the same amount that the power of the load have increased? Just curious to know ...
            Hi hanon,

            You can see some some increase in the alternator's field current when the load current is increased due to the regulator which will increase it on purpose to offset the increased voltage drop in the armature due to increased armature (phase) current. But without the voltage regulator, no, increased load on the armature will not change field (exciting) current.

            And as Mario says, cogging is the incorrect term to use for the torque opposing rotation in a generator due to load current. The classical meaning of cogging in motors and generators is solely due to the core (steel) and magnets. So more load current requires more shaft input torque (more mechanical power) per Lorentz.

            Regards,

            bi

            Comment


            • Originally posted by bistander View Post
              Hi hanon,

              You can see some some increase in the alternator's field current when the load current is increased due to the regulator which will increase it on purpose to offset the increased voltage drop in the armature due to increased armature (phase) current. But without the voltage regulator, no, increased load on the armature will not change field (exciting) current.
              Hi,

              I refered to the alternator without regulator, at constant excitement. Thanks bistander for your post full of expertise. You may watch how I interpret the induction in transformers and generators in this video. Two different kind of induction.

              https://vimeo.com/155371840


              Transformers ---> Flux Linking induction ----> E = -dB/dt (Faraday) ; Lenz Law manifest as an opposing field to the inducers

              Generators ----> Flux Cutting Induction ----> E = v•B (Lorentz) ; Lenz Law manifest as a dragging/cogging effect opposing to the motion

              .
              Last edited by hanon1492; 09-14-2016, 07:31 PM.

              Comment


              • Pics

                Hanon/UFO;

                How do you guys post pics in the actual post itself separate from the thumbnail.???


                MM

                Comment


                • Originally posted by marathonman View Post
                  Hanon/UFO;

                  How do you guys post pics in the actual post itself separate from the thumbnail.???


                  MM
                  When posting there is an icon/botton in the top bar which is like a yellow mountain to link images

                  What I do is to attach the image file. I send the post. Later I open the image and it pops up as a jpg or png link. I edit the post and I put that link using the "yelow mountain" bottom This way I convert a thumbnail into a goog looking image.

                  I have found recently a site https://postimage.org which allow to upload images without any registration, and it creates a jpg or png link which may be linked here.

                  Comment


                  • Cogging

                    Originally posted by hanon1492 View Post
                    Thanks bistander for your post full of expertise.
                    ...
                    You're welcome. I try to help where I can. And I've seen that video a while ago.


                    A common misconception is that cogging is caused by the interaction of the magnets with the coils. In reality cogging will also be present in the case of an empty stator core, without any windings in them. It has absolutely nothing to do with the coils. Cogging is caused only by the unequal attraction of the magnetic rotor to the iron of the stator.
                    FROM:
                    https://www.scribd.com/mobile/docume...ng-Tutorial-V1

                    Comment


                    • Cool

                      děkuji, merci, grazie, gratias ago, спасибо, gracias, Thank you.

                      i will try.

                      isn't there an insert image url button in top bar also???

                      ps. well that didn't work.

                      Pick is coming up as link not full pic.

                      what is a GOOG LOOKING IMAGE. HA, HA HA. that's funny.


                      MM
                      Last edited by marathonman; 09-14-2016, 07:05 PM.

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                      • Image post trial

                        lets see if it works.


                        How elves make cookies.

                        Ahhhhh, success at last.

                        Thank you HANON.


                        MM
                        Last edited by marathonman; 09-14-2016, 07:20 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Just wanted to make a quick post, trying to listen and learn instead of talking. MM, after spending some serious time thinking about my ideas it became clear to me why you are correct. There is no point in trying to use permanent magnets with a coil wrapped around them, the permeability of the magnetic material itself is so low that the coil design to modulate the field by an appreciable amount is totally impractical. Much better to use an iron core and copper windings. Also, to maximize output it will be desirable to get close to the saturation region of the iron core. Trying to achieve anything like this level of induction with permanent magnets is again, completely impractical. The idea of using two windings with one as a bias is equally impractical: they will act as a transformer and the DC supply feeding the bias winding would appear as a load to the AC feed, not at all working as the experimenter might wish. No, the only practical design choice appears to be the one under discussion, controlling the two primary coils with the "Part G" controller that recycles the energy.

                          Thankfully time thinking is faster and cheaper than buying parts and wasting time building. My apologies, sorry to have muddied the waters.

                          Comment


                          • No apology needed

                            We are in this experience together, an exchange of ideas and knowledge is the basis of life and the advancement of this device whether you contribute a little or a lot. company much appreciated to aide in the spreading of truth and knowledge. remember to tell a friend, 6 degrees of separation.


                            below is common characteristic behavior of hysteresis curve of pure iron but similar to silicon iron with silicon iron being slightly wider. results are similar as the primaries remain very efficient in operating in the knee of the curve.



                            MM
                            Last edited by marathonman; 09-14-2016, 08:55 PM.

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                            • posting of pics

                              Hanon;

                              easier to click post reply.
                              type reply.
                              go to website, upload pic.
                              click pic, right click, copy link.
                              click yellow mountain
                              paste URL in post.
                              submit reply.

                              TA- DAAAAA. ! mission accomplished.


                              MM
                              Last edited by marathonman; 09-14-2016, 09:01 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Lenz force

                                @Mario
                                Hi , well my thoughts were along the same line as you about the Lenz force when I first tried the experiment that was given . I used two coils with a NN on one and a SS on the other and had a magnetic closed circuit . With moving the rods through the coils I got a induced voltage as described . I used only one coil and had the same result . Then I thought that as you to short circuit the coil and see if I could detect Lenz force . I could not , with either setup , single or dual coils .
                                After reading your post I thought hat maybe I was mistaken so I tested it again and again I could find no indication of Lenz force .
                                I must say that this is a crude test but with more accurate testing you my be correct . But for with what I have here it is not showing .
                                I don't have a finished device to test with so I can give no affirmative answer as to the complete function of the generator . But MM version that he built and tested with results would indicate that it is not present on the input side of the device .

                                So I would say that it is not confirmed that Lenz is present
                                In this device without more tests . And I plan to continue with it . Others can make up there own minds and act in accordance . You may disagree with this , but I replicated he experiment with very strong neo magnets and could not reproduce your results .

                                Jeff

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