Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera

[bistander]

Vectors

...BUT, In your example picture about Repulsion...I see Two Arrows, facing each others...is this one Single B Vector to you? with Two directions?

Can there "exist" a Vector with Two Directions...a "Bi-Vector"?

...

Good catch Ufo,

I interpret that center line in the diagram running between the N pole of each magnet to represent a series of B-vectors at every point on that line. Vectors to the left of the center point have a direction per the arrow head (pointing to the right) and vectors to the right of the center point have a direction the other way, to the left. At the exact center is a vector with zero magnitude therefore direction is irrelevant (ie. a null vector, I think they call it). So, if the magnets were indeed 100.0000% identical and you placed a test charge exactly midway between them, that charge would experience zero force from the magnetic field.

{2nd edit} I've been thinking more about this "center line" and have decided that it must be an error by the originator of the diagram. I much prefer to see the representation as done by Cadman in his femm where there is no center line shown. The lines in these drawings are often thought as lines of flux and therefore are convergent, meaning they close on themselves. Lines which exit the drawing boarder are expected to re-enter and close upon themselves. This doesn't seem possible with that N-N centerline so I suggest it doesn't represent anything real and should not be drawn.
{end of edit}

So no, a vector has a single magnitude and single direction at every instant in time. The vectors are used to define the field at every point. In real fields, this vector can change from one point to other point in the field. The directions of these changing vectors throughout the field is represented by the lines and arrow heads in those diagrams. In femm diagrams, they use colors to represent the magnitudes of the vectors at different points throughout the field.



{edit} I added that femm for reference. It was done by Cadman and posted on this thread earlier. He also has 2 more nice images. Lately I noticed those images have disappeared from his post. Too bad. I want to use them. If he reads this, please post those again. They can be helpful to us understand Figuera. Thanks.

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

>No, they don't. Lots of them do, but not all. The homopolar dynamo is an excellent example, as hannon mentioned a few posts ago.

Hello Bistander,

Again, my bad...I meant "Most Popular, Most Utilized Dynamos or Generators" which are -still- in use in our Home or Industrial Applications...Is it ok now?

Or else, I could also bring up the De Palma N-Machine here...

>Not exactly. When working with magnetic machinery, I seldom considered or even thought about N and S poles. I worked with the fields and more specifically the flux. The North and South pole references help some people visualize magnetics. The N and S poles are defined by the B field (vectors) entering or leaving the surface of a volume (magnet) and not the other way around.

It would be very useful to know that all the time, the B Field Vector comes out the North Pole of every single magnetic field.

>There is a magnetic field around and through an electromagnet. Each one. When multiple electromagnets are in the same vicinity, those fields combine into a resultant magnetic field and that resultant field has a single valued vector at every point representing B in magnitude and direction. You cannot have more that one B vector at any point in space at any point in time.



Notice on these 2 field maps of pairs of magnets that each of the diagrams specifically labels it as a "field" as is singular, not plural, although that "field" is obviously the combination or resultant of the 2 fields, one from each magnet.

>I'll refer again to the Wikipedia article sited above. If you continue reading it into the section about calculating magnetic force you will see this sentence. Notice that there is no differentiation between method of calculating force between attraction and repulsion.

I suspect this will be counter intuitive to most who have played or even measures forces with 2 magnets attracting and repelling each other. I'd attribute that to this qualifier in the article. Until the gap is sufficiently small to satisfy that statement, the repelling situation develops more fringing than attraction.


>Thanks.

Regards,

bi

Then, let's use a very simple example...we have two IDENTICAL MAGNETS...not only based on "Physical Spec's" BUT based on Strength Measurement Testing from both, which completely demonstrates both are IDENTICAL IN FORCE AS WELL.

Now, whenever we face their TWO LIKE POLES, according to you there should be just One Single B Field Vector...correct?

And so, if both magnets have identical strengths, then each B Vectors "should" CANCEL, based on the simple math formula where two identical vectors of force when they are opposed at IDENTICAL FACING ANGLES (say a straight 180º)...then RESULT would be a big ZERO...

Then your "Single" B Field Vector here would be zero?

Now a "Zero B Vector" value would mean there is "No Field" there...

Like I said before...on Attraction, I do agree there is One Single B Vector...BUT, In your example picture about Repulsion...I see Two Arrows, facing each others...is this one Single B Vector to you? with Two directions?

Can there "exist" a Vector with Two Directions...a "Bi-Vector"?

And don't get me wrong...I understand IF One is weaker than the other, then the stronger Vector would prevail on its arrow direction...but My Example was Identical Forces, opposite directions.

Anybody could easily FEEL, in those two identical magnets, with identical Forces...there is absolutely no "Zero Value" there, but a very strong and increasing force, the more we get them closer to each others...

And to perform such simple tests there is no need to be a "Scientist" then get to simple conclusions.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Reply to Ufo

Hello Bistander,

I guess I did not expressed myself properly...sorry for that.

What I meant was that all known generators work based on alternating North and South Poles...or as you see it, changing the B Field Directions.

>No, they don't. Lots of them do, but not all. The homopolar dynamo is an excellent example, as hannon mentioned a few posts ago.

As you understand it, the B Field Vector comes out of the North Pole correct?

And so, B Field "enters" through the South Pole...

All the above is how Classic Magnetism explain B Field Vectors...isn't it?

>Not exactly. When working with magnetic machinery, I seldom considered or even thought about N and S poles. I worked with the fields and more specifically the flux. The North and South pole references help some people visualize magnetics. The N and S poles are defined by the B field (vectors) entering or leaving the surface of a volume (magnet) and not the other way around.

You meant that each Electromagnet have its own B Field direction and Magnitude...and I agree...

>There is a magnetic field around and through an electromagnet. Each one. When multiple electromagnets are in the same vicinity, those fields combine into a resultant magnetic field and that resultant field has a single valued vector at every point representing B in magnitude and direction. You cannot have more that one B vector at any point in space at any point in time.



Notice on these 2 field maps of pairs of magnets that each of the diagrams specifically labels it as a "field" as is singular, not plural, although that "field" is obviously the combination or resultant of the 2 fields, one from each magnet.

But now above... you are applying the "All Included" to come up with a Single Vector...

And so, I do not agree with your inclusion of all the above...

As I understand the Classic approach...when a North and a South Pole are facing each others Spatially (meaning not contacting, but with an air gap)...I can see that it becomes a Single Vector which goes from North Pole to South Pole...

But I can not, and so Classic Magnetism does not apply the same concept above whenever we have Two Like Poles, a North to North or a South to South. This contains TWO Vectors which does not "add up" to a Single Vector like with N-S approach, but contains Two Vectors Opposed in Direction, Magnitude could be the same or different...and so accordingly both Fields would react...but both vectors never add up, but repel each others...this is Classic Magnetism Theories...nothing new here Bistander.

>I'll refer again to the Wikipedia article sited above. If you continue reading it into the section about calculating magnetic force you will see this sentence.

Calculating the attractive or repulsive force between two magnets is, in the general case, an extremely complex operation, as it depends on the shape, magnetization, orientation and separation of the magnets.

Notice that there is no differentiation between method of calculating force between attraction and repulsion.

I suspect this will be counter intuitive to most who have played or even measures forces with 2 magnets attracting and repelling each other. I'd attribute that to this qualifier in the article.

The equation is valid only for cases in which the effect of fringing is negligible and the volume of the air gap is much smaller than that of the magnetized material.

Until the gap is sufficiently small to satisfy that statement, the repelling situation develops more fringing than attraction.

I completely agree with the above, YES, there is Only ONE FIELD between both Primaries...a called REPULSION FIELD, which is formed by TWO Opposed Direction Vectors of Force and Magnitude, or you could call them TWO OPPOSED B FIELDS if you like...

NOW, following the Figuera principle, whenever One of this Vectors falls below the magnitude from the opposed one...then this weaker vector retracts by the force impinged by the strongest one. And so the opposed actions take place alternatively as they change magnitudes constantly...

AND SO, this Hi-Lo fluctuations, generates a back-forth Displacement of the Repulsion Field, formed by the two alternating forces from two vectors of opposed directions.


Sorry, but I can not just conclude the same way you are doing above...that "simple" as just "it's all about flux" would never give all the definitions and explanations above...

>OK. Another difference of opinion. Imagine that?

And please realize that I have not even mentioned the words "spin" or "vortexes of force, nor "magnetic pressures" at any point of my post above...just to "speak your same language"...

>Thanks.

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Ufo,

The standard generator doesn't work on "Attract" "Classic N-S". It moves conductors through a magnetic field (flux at the air gap).

Hello Bistander,

I guess I did not expressed myself properly...sorry for that.

What I meant was that all known generators work based on alternating North and South Poles...or as you see it, changing the B Field Directions.

As you understand it, the B Field Vector comes out of the North Pole correct?

And so, B Field "enters" through the South Pole...

All the above is how Classic Magnetism explain B Field Vectors...isn't it?

Both Ufo & hannon,

The field vector represents the flux (magnitude & direction) at each point (the field).

You meant that each Electromagnet have its own B Field direction and Magnitude...and I agree...

That vector can be the resultant or combination of several sources, poles or fields, but will be a single vector.

But now above... you are applying the "All Included" to come up with a Single Vector...

And so, I do not agree with your inclusion of all the above...

As I understand the Classic approach...when a North and a South Pole are facing each others Spatially (meaning not contacting, but with an air gap)...I can see that it becomes a Single Vector which goes from North Pole to South Pole...

But I can not, and so Classic Magnetism does not apply the same concept above whenever we have Two Like Poles, a North to North or a South to South. This contains TWO Vectors which does not "add up" to a Single Vector like with N-S approach, but contains Two Vectors Opposed in Direction, Magnitude could be the same or different...and so accordingly both Fields would react...but both vectors never add up, but repel each others...this is Classic Magnetism Theories...nothing new here Bistander.

So I see just one field where the y coil is. That field changes as the mmf in the primaries change, but is a single valued field at any point in time.

I completely agree with the above, YES, there is Only ONE FIELD between both Primaries...a called REPULSION FIELD, which is formed by TWO Opposed Direction Vectors of Force and Magnitude, or you could call them TWO OPPOSED B FIELDS if you like...

NOW, following the Figuera principle, whenever One of this Vectors falls below the magnitude from the opposed one...then this weaker vector retracts by the force impinged by the strongest one. And so the opposed actions take place alternatively as they change magnitudes constantly...

AND SO, this Hi-Lo fluctuations, generates a back-forth Displacement of the Repulsion Field, formed by the two alternating forces from two vectors of opposed directions.

So it is all about flux. And changing of that flux.

bi

Sorry, but I can not just conclude the same way you are doing above...that "simple" as just "it's all about flux" would never give all the definitions and explanations above...

And please realize that I have not even mentioned the words "spin" or "vortexes of force, nor "magnetic pressures" at any point of my post above...just to "speak your same language"...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Faraday's Law

Then, please explain us the induction in homopolar generators where there is no change in flux. Later , if you solve it, do not forget to ask for a Nobel prize.

There is a change in the conductor position or material composition relative to the flux. I thought that was well understood. There is, or are, example(s) which appear to defy this effect to some degree. Perhaps that is what you're talking about. I think Wikipedia for Faraday's Law shows this. I don't claim to know everything about the subject as it is very deep even into theory of relativity. But I do understand the science associated with induction and generation.

You have not listened carefully to Mr. Feynman. I guess that you think that you understand perfectly induction and I am afraid that you dont see the meaning of both induction equations and their differences. Mr. Feynman can help you!. Bye.

Mr. Feynman isn't the only source of knowledge on the subject. That which you claim I do not understand, I, in fact, do understand very well. You must be misinterpreting what I relate on this forum or have preconceived opinions.

bi

[hanon1492]

So it is all about flux. And changing of that flux.

Then, please explain us the induction in homopolar generators where there is no change in flux. Later , if you solve it, do not forget to ask for a Nobel prize.

You have not listened carefully to Mr. Feynman. I guess that you think that you understand perfectly induction and I am afraid that you dont see the meaning of both induction equations and their differences. Mr. Feynman can help you!. Bye.

[bistander]

Understanding

Bistander;
it sounds like you are starting to understand the Figuera device.

MM, I've understood it from the time I first read about it. It is just that you have not been listening to me.

BTW, thanks for the absence of insults today.

Regards,

bi

[bistander]

Change

as for the flux, it is not about flux strength it is about movement.

And changing of that flux.

"Changing of that flux" includes "movement".

[marathonman]

Primaries

Bistander;

That is very good assumption. the primaries even though they have opposing fields their Field vector is in the same direction acting as one strong vector potential to the secondary and because the opposing fields (Lenz law maintains this opposition) are present they are what push the secondary field from side to side.

as for the flux, it is not about flux strength it is about movement. sure the movement can be caused by intensity change but Figuera figured out that all one needs to do is have movement in the field vector all while the cores retain 80 to 90 % of the magnetic potential. this is why the long air path is present, it aids in minimizing the currant change. the primaries are only reduced in relation to the secondary not them selves.

it sounds like you are starting to understand the Figuera device.
and this is a good thing.

MM

[bistander]

To Ufo & hannon

Remember this is not "Classic N-S" Attract and Standard Generator deals anymore...

Ufo,

The standard generator doesn't work on "Attract" "Classic N-S". It moves conductors through a magnetic field (flux at the air gap).

It is not about the Flux, but about Field Directional Vectors from both poles.

Both Ufo & hannon,

The field vector represents the flux (magnitude & direction) at each point (the field). That vector can be the resultant or combination of several sources, poles or fields, but will be a single vector. So I see just one field where the y coil is. That field changes as the mmf in the primaries change, but is a single valued field at any point in time.

So it is all about flux. And changing of that flux.

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Ufo, If you remember the last Buforn's patent in 1914 he piled many sets to use both poles of each electromagnet. But he piled them linearly. For some reason I do not understand he did not close the loop to form a full toroid. Intriguing... Have a look to the drawing of that patent to see what I refer.

Yes I do remember that Patent from Buforn...

What he did was to align each ending pole to the next in kind of an array, like:

S/N-y-N/S-y-S/N-y-N/S-y-S/N-y-N/S...and so on, where N/S or S/N are the electromagnets orientation and N-N and S-S are the Repulse Interactions with y secondaries at center.

but leaving the two ending poles at the row loose (not looped)

I agree is some how much better than leaving all south poles loose when making only N-N Interactions with secondaries.

Other thing: IMHO, I think that between cores may be needed a kind of insulator to separate the poles of the electromagnet, which never reverse, from the poles in the induced coil, which are reversing in AC style, every cycle.

Sorry Hanon, but an insulator between cores won't do nada...this is an Spatial Interaction that would jump through everything to reach iron and copper windings on it.

In the beginnings I thought also that a gap and insulation would be required ...but after testing...we can build everything mounted on a common single core.

The BEST WAY, is like I posted before...using Two Closed Looped by Diodes Big and Fat Coils (like Brushless type does) to be the ones that do the direct facing against secondaries, and so they are being Induced by smaller pulsating coils I refer to as "P1". I already tested that option and it even "cleans up" the signal from commutator noise.

Secondaries will "kick back" on this Isolated P2 Induced Coils, but not on the originating pulse signaling Coils (P1) therefore will not reflect/ nor interfere on Source nor on electronic pulsing device.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[hanon1492]

I disagree. The middle E leg is short enough to leave an air gap for the secondary conductors just like the air gap and armature conductors in a standard rotary generator. And those conductors are oriented properly. So all you need to do is get flux to move back and forth via the opposing primaries.

Bistander, Ufo is right. If you want move the magnetic lines further and closer to each electronagnet you need an air path which will be different in each point of collision of the field. There are two forces fighting and in order to move the collision plane the high reluctance path need to have some relation with the distance to the electromagnets. If constant then there wont be any movement because both fields will take the shorter air path to return to the other electromagnet pole and movement will be null.

Ufo, If you remember the last Buforn's patent in 1914 he piled many sets to use both poles of each electromagnet. But he piled them linearly. For some reason I do not understand he did not close the loop to form a full toroid. Intriguing... Have a look to the drawing of that patent to see what I refer.

Other thing: IMHO, I think that between cores may be needed a kind of insulator to separate the poles of the electromagnet, which never reverse, from the poles in the induced coil, which are reversing in AC style, every cycle.

[Ufopolitics]

I disagree. The middle E leg is short enough to leave an air gap for the secondary conductors just like the air gap and armature conductors in a standard rotary generator. And those conductors are oriented properly. So all you need to do is get flux to move back and forth via the opposing primaries.

Bistander,

Sorry, but here we are dealing with a Repulse Field right at center leg (previously Image shows that at center bar)...say they are two Norths...well, then your E Core would be shorting out that N-N Repulsion by bringing the two S-S and delivering right at center of the N-N. It will completely Cancel repulse field.

Remember this is not "Classic N-S" Attract and Standard Generator deals anymore...

And flux has little difficulty with corners in steel circuits. Look at all the square transformers. Rounded corners are a bit better in that there is less core material, shorter magnetic path and less leakage. But for the sake of available parts, reuse of E-core is the way to first test.

Regards,

bi

It is not about the Flux, but about Field Directional Vectors from both poles.

Sorry, but...If, in my test I would have set all coils at Angular Steel cores, even rounding them up...they would never generate what they did in a straight line.




Take care


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

E-core

Hello Bistander,

It should work only if you take off the center leg of the "E", which is completely interfering or best said "absorbing" the center N-N Fluctuations, weakening them.

Another thing is... that when we use a closed Squared pattern then add on each ends the primaries, then secondaries at each side, the field directional and strongest "face to face" repulsion is gone...weakening induction.

The best choice would be a "rounded" geometry, like a Toroid, where the directional field will suffer less losses within core.

Magnetic Fields don't make left or right turns...much less a "U" Turn...and yes, we could "redirect" them...but with losses included.


Ufopolitics

I disagree. The middle E leg is short enough to leave an air gap for the secondary conductors just like the air gap and armature conductors in a standard rotary generator. And those conductors are oriented properly. So all you need to do is get flux to move back and forth via the opposing primaries.

And flux has little difficulty with corners in steel circuits. Look at all the square transformers. Rounded corners are a bit better in that there is less core material, shorter magnetic path and less leakage. But for the sake of available parts, reuse of E-core is the way to first test.

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Lenz on Figuera...

More about my previous Tests...

Another thing I wanted to add is how the Lenz Forces manifests on the Figuera Generator...

Simply whenever we load or short out the main secondaries at Center Coils, where full repulsion is fluctuating...this repulse field increases pressures to the point that if they are somehow loose...they will fly away from Secondaries space.

IMHO...this is Lenz acting here...

But, if all coils are holding tight together (like they are supposed to be, I had them loose to observe reactions...)...then there would be a "slight" increase on amperage AS a slight decrease on voltage from the main source being pulsed.

This "slight" fluctuations take place whenever System is at high Operating speed pulsing...if we are slower...then is no longer a "slight" but huge fluctuations.


Regards


Ufopolitics