Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Elcheapo View Post
    You say my 12 volt is too small. So if I jack it up to your 36volt level
    total power consumption would go up also, from 144 watts to 432 watts.
    What we're trying to do here is to increase our output power and not increase the input power.
    So maybe what you mean is I should jack up my voltage to 36volts and cut my maximum amperage down to 4 amps to give me the same input power. So goodbye to a strongly changing magnetic field.
    You are saying the voltage is too low to be able to move the magnetic field around. Well wherever did you read that a higher voltage will move a magnetic field. I'd like to see that article.
    Hello Elcheapo,

    Cheer up friend, life is beautiful...

    What I was trying to say is to BALANCE Volts versus Amperage, exactly as you have said on the above bold out part.

    You are wrong as not having a strong field anymore if you cut amperage and increase voltage, let me example that:

    In a 4400 Watts small Home Generator, the required Exciting Field must be around the 400 Watts...

    HOWEVER, the way Wattage is disbursed is: 175V and 2-2.5 Amps.

    And above fact is understandable because this exciting DC field runs ON AT ALL TIME during Operation, so Coil is built with fine wire (like 26-28 awg) and a whole of Amp-Turns, where resistance is around 65 ohms.

    On Figuera concept, since we are switching the field to Hi-Lo, then we can afford a lower Voltage from the 175V and a bit higher amperage...just balancing out in order not to have too much impedance so it does not affect fast pulsing.

    For example, I have consistently used 386 feet of 16 awg wrapped into many different coil geometries as the exciter part and that allows me to pulse-supply up to 50V and like from 1 to 4 amps max. And this is for testing purposes only, so, do not mean it would be the final device.

    Originally posted by Elcheapo View Post
    Your concept of voltage is out of kilter. Voltage is a pressure, as you say
    but it only serves to get amperage up to your required level, no more.
    There are circuits of course that require HV operation, but this is not one of them.
    A strong magnetic field is totally dependent on higher amperage only. The voltage is there only to get that higher amperage and no more.
    Sorry about that...but I disagree above...

    Voltage and Amperage must be BALANCED OUT for every different application...

    In our Figuera case, we need a very well balanced Power (Watts) and that directly relates to the type of coil configuration(understand basically wire gauge plus number of Amp-Turns) we are using.

    Let me example that...

    You have one gallon of water (One Amp) to run at a 386 feet pipe line and in order to get from one end to the other...you apply One PSI of pressure...what happens?...nothing...water will move but will never reach the end...much less if we wrap that line into a coil serpentine shape.

    I applied your "ratio" of 1:1 based on 12 Amps and 12 Volts...But based on 1 unit.

    Originally posted by Elcheapo View Post
    And yes you're right when saying that varying the resistance on your setup
    will vary the voltage as well as the amps.
    Exactly, and if you remember on Buforn He mentioned 100V and 1 amp ratio...And I am pretty sure when Figuera was talking about "currents" he was referring to BOTH...Volts and Amps as One Flow together.

    Originally posted by Elcheapo View Post
    You say "If magnetic fields change there would be induction emf at output."

    No, you're wrong on that as I've already tried it on my circuit.
    I am pretty sure there should be some induction there...very small because of the way you are doing it...but there MUST BE some flow...millivolts-milliamps...but some.

    And that "change" is not the only dependent aspect to generate EMF Induction...but also based on the "Rate of that Change" (interpret it as repetitions of that change)


    Originally posted by Elcheapo View Post
    I have a 20 amp meter in series with the main 12 volt line and when set up for 12 amps there is no variation whatsoever on the meter. A volt-meter
    shows no variation as well. Tried 60hz and 400hz: same thing.
    And that is why my output coil shows zero volts.
    Try to read it by "portions" (nodes) of the circuit and not just from the main source, example:

    Try putting an amp and a volt meters on each one of the Exciter Coils, then it should read the ALTERNATING changes (In Voltage and Amperage) taking place there when you start switching...or the two Scope Probes while running. If there are no changes...then that is why you are not getting any induction.

    Originally posted by Elcheapo View Post
    A couple of questions:
    Do you believe that the total amperage between the 2 coils should always remain the same?
    Again...why look at the TOTAL Amps or Voltage from PSU, when the ACTUAL CHANGE-FLUCTUATION of POWER is taking place between the two Exciting Coils?

    You have a very small generating coil CORE of 0.75 In (3/4")...and if you build a too high DOUBLE VOLUME FIELDS with your LONGER Exciter Cores...this fluctuation will never be "seen" by the small length core...So I will try either a longer core and spread wire along...or simply and much easier...lower your power down until the Field becomes smaller in volume and it can travel from one extreme to the other of your 3/4 inch core.

    Remember, you do not want the retractions and expansions of the two fields to get into their own exciter coils-cores...otherwise you will be sending this self induction back to your source.


    Originally posted by Elcheapo View Post
    Where do YOU think the extra energy is coming from.

    Regards
    Elcheapo
    Wow...good question...But basing it on who we are here...we are builders, experimenters here and not tinkerers..or theorizers...

    I know what the answer you would like is..."The Aether"...but that's too "general speaking"...

    Extra Energy is coming from many places...we just have to make the right set up to process it.

    The day that we all get to see that a Magnetic Field contains A SINGLE Flow Spin, which will NOT progress unless we MOVE it through SPACE/TIME coordinates...and that such Spin moved through S/T will IMPINGE an Electron Flow on any Conductor of wire, specially shaped ACCORDING to that Field VOLUMETRICAL DISPLACEMENT...then we will have Extra Energy in so many forms and shapes...that the whole picture will change rapidly.

    First we must set this FIELD SPATIAL VOLUMETRICAL DISPLACEMENT CORRECTLY (like I told you above...to travel through your generating CORE properly)...And then....then it is just a matter to "REPEAT THE PROCESS" through TIME...Or as Faraday Law: INCREASING that RATE of CHANGE.

    Resuming...it is GREAT to have a STEADY Output from Source...and just by swinging-playing with the fluctuations between two facing coils-cores...we get extra energy above what we are putting in, by increasing that rate of change.


    Hope I have answered all your questions satisfactorily...as also I wanna read that you are having power out of your generating coils





    Ufopolitics
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 07-08-2017, 06:18 PM.
    Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

    Comment


    • Hi UFO,

      You are wrong as not having a strong field anymore if you cut amperage and increase voltage, let me example that
      Yes, that was my mistake.
      We need to use the ampere-turns formula to compare field strength of
      different coils. And notice that in every reference to this formula 'volts" is never mentioned. It's only applied in ohms law to get the right amount of current and then it's job is done.

      But you still think that coils using a higher voltage will move that spatial
      field better.
      The space between the coils is strictly magnetic and not movable by any voltage. But don't worry UFO, I'll be working on some method to prove it for you.

      Voltage and Amperage must be BALANCED OUT for every different application...
      The only thing we need to balance out Voltage and Amperage is ohms law.

      I am pretty sure there should be some induction there...very small because of the way you are doing it...but there MUST BE some flow...millivolts-milliamps...but some.
      If I had gotten even 1/2 a volt, I would be thinking, well maybe I need a stronger magnetic field but no, zero volts got me to realize that because there was no change in current or emf then that was the reason and something else was necessary.
      Had this same problem last September sometime when using larger 5" long coils wound with #14: Secondary coil I think was 2" long. Got zero.
      I mentioned it to MM and he said "well you won't get anything out if you have no change in current or voltage".
      Ya, we've all become brain-washed over the years and have a hard time to
      change our way of thinking.
      In the mean time if you want to use your resistor switching system, be sure to get those nichrome resistors set up so there is no change in total amps and emf. Then when I change mine using TWO pickup coils which I think will work then you can do the same.
      Very few real experimenters on this thread except for you, so always glad to hear from you, even if we don't agree.

      Cheers
      Elcheapo

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Elcheapo View Post
        Hi UFO,

        But you still think that coils using a higher voltage will move that spatial
        field better.
        The space between the coils is strictly magnetic and not movable by any voltage. But don't worry UFO, I'll be working on some method to prove it for you.
        Hello Elcheapo,

        I never said that Higher Voltage ALONE will move Field better.

        Applying it to your case (your set up) friend, yes, you get a very strong field by using 12 amps...but then, using 12 volts to displace that HEAVY AMPS FIELD around, from one end of coil to the other Terminal, or from side to side of core...12V is NOT ENOUGH Voltage.
        Voltage is in charge to pressurize, (push-pull) that amp volume flow across conductor LENGTH.

        Originally posted by Elcheapo View Post
        The only thing we need to balance out Voltage and Amperage is ohms law.
        I already had this discussion with Bistander before...Amps-Turns in the equation should relate to Voltage and NOT amps in the Ohms-Magnetic Equation he brought in.

        Originally posted by Elcheapo View Post
        If I had gotten even 1/2 a volt, I would be thinking, well maybe I need a stronger magnetic field but no, zero volts got me to realize that because there was no change in current or emf then that was the reason and something else was necessary.
        Had this same problem last September sometime when using larger 5" long coils wound with #14: Secondary coil I think was 2" long. Got zero.
        I mentioned it to MM and he said "well you won't get anything out if you have no change in current or voltage".
        Ya, we've all become brain-washed over the years and have a hard time to
        change our way of thinking.
        The Variation of Volts-Amps ONLY needs to take place at each of the exciting coils...Source should be the same at all time. Maybe small variations in milli units.


        Originally posted by Elcheapo View Post
        In the mean time if you want to use your resistor switching system, be sure to get those nichrome resistors set up so there is no change in total amps and emf. Then when I change mine using TWO pickup coils which I think will work then you can do the same.
        I am no longer using resistors at all...that was just a Phase of Experiments, done deal by now.

        Originally posted by Elcheapo View Post
        Very few real experimenters on this thread except for you, so always glad to hear from you, even if we don't agree.

        Cheers
        Elcheapo
        True and agree, same here Elcheapo, hopefully many more will join in once we put up a working device up front...no matter how many things have been changed around it...

        Couple of suggestion on your setup:

        Could you either repeat or expand (increase) the ON TIME AT PEAK LIMITS for each signal? (meaning Top and Bottom)...this will give EXPANDING Field a bit more time to DEVELOP while the Low one stays also more time on Minimal RETRACTION stage.

        Also, try lowering your Amps and increasing Voltage...say around 30V and like 4-6 amps total from source. Play with different combination ratios...


        Regards


        Ufopolitics
        Last edited by Ufopolitics; 07-12-2017, 01:38 PM.
        Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

        Comment


        • Coil current

          Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
          ...
          I already had this discussion with Bistander before...Amps-Turns in the equation should relate to Voltage and NOT amps in the Ohms-Magnetic Equation he brought in.
          ...
          The magnetic circuit sees current (in the mmf, Amp Turns), not voltage. The electric circuit needs the voltage to satisfy Ohm's Law considering the coil resistance.

          Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
          ...
          ...
          Also, try lowering your Amps and increasing Voltage...say around 30V and like 4-6 amps total from source. Play with different combination ratios...
          He would have to rewind the coil to alter the current and voltage as you request, or perhaps change the temperature (but his wire insulation would fail before resistance got high enough to take 30V/5A).

          Regards,

          bi

          Comment


          • Originally posted by bistander View Post
            The magnetic circuit sees current (in the mmf, Amp Turns), not voltage. The electric circuit needs the voltage to satisfy Ohm's Law considering the coil resistance.



            He would have to rewind the coil to alter the current and voltage as you request, or perhaps change the temperature (but his wire insulation would fail before resistance got high enough to take 30V/5A).

            Regards,

            bi
            Hello bi,

            What you said is all very true although there is one other way to raise the voltage and lower the current without rewinding the coil. That is to raise the frequency to a few kilohertz. Then the inductive reactance would lower the current. I think this is what MM kept claiming the part G would do but of course the part G as built by some on this forum had much too small of inductive reactance at the frequency they were wanting to use.

            The only real problem with raising the frequency is the inductive heating losses that will occur in the core unless the core is made of the proper materials.

            So for all practical purposes the coils would need to be rewound to allow for higher voltage and lower current. Just thought I would throw that other idea in there for those that might want to see how inductive reactance works since some on this thread seem to be pretty confused about all that.

            Later,
            Carroll
            Just because someone disagrees with you does NOT make them your enemy. We can disagree without attacking someone. This means YOU especially BroMikey.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by bistander View Post
              The magnetic circuit sees current (in the mmf, Amp Turns), not voltage. The electric circuit needs the voltage to satisfy Ohm's Law considering the coil resistance.
              Hello Bistander,

              Honestly Bistander, at this stage, I really do not care what they say...

              I know Voltage has been taken out -completely- from the Magnetic Equation of a Coil...However, no electromagnetic device will work with an UNBALANCED Voltage-Amperage either too low voltage and Higher amperage or the opposite...high Voltage with too low amps.

              And yes, I know -as I understand as well- it is stated in Ohms Law...what I really do not understand is why voltage has been taken completely off magnetism.

              Voltage and Amperage go by the hand (in a relation as Ohm's Law) anywhere we need a specific flow of ELECTRICITY.

              Example: Get a BRUSHED Motor which requires 24V and 15 Amps MAX, then supply only 2 Volts with same amps or less (+/-15A)...Let's see if it barely makes an attempt to move.


              Originally posted by bistander View Post
              He would have to rewind the coil to alter the current and voltage as you request, or perhaps change the temperature (but his wire insulation would fail before resistance got high enough to take 30V/5A).

              Regards,

              bi
              That depends upon his resistance at the coils, for example, my exciters are based on 386 ft of 16 gauge, and no matter what shape (Amps-Turns), it will ALWAYS HAVE around 2.0 Ohms Resistance. Which means I could make ANY GEOMETRY I like...and you must realize that Geometry dictates number of Turns. Resuming, I can add easily 50 Volts and up to four Amps to that Coil being pulsed by my mechanical rotary switch...AND it will BARELY get WARM.

              At the same token...IF My Geometry is TOO LONG and TOO SMALL in COIL THICKNESS...even with FULL POWER Magnetic Field would be very weak, why? because of area of Field distribution ALONG A LONGER IRON CORE REQUIRED...and guess what?...Both, working (Shorter Core) and not working (Longer Core) same core thickness Geometries would have EXACTLY SAME number of turns......Please explain that one

              Any Coil with too low resistance (say below One Amp) will NEVER allow Voltage to rise on ANY given PSU, Linear or Switched...HOWEVER, amps could go Sky High...But it would do ABSOLUTELY NADA...NO INDUCTION.

              So, I highly recommend for those experimenting with Figuera...to use around 2.0 Ohms resistance on their exciters and basically if providing power with a Regulated Linear or Switched PSU...Only then you would see results.


              Regards


              Ufopolitics
              Last edited by Ufopolitics; 07-12-2017, 03:04 PM.
              Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

              Comment


              • Originally posted by citfta View Post
                Hello bi,

                What you said is all very true although there is one other way to raise the voltage and lower the current without rewinding the coil. That is to raise the frequency to a few kilohertz. Then the inductive reactance would lower the current. I think this is what MM kept claiming the part G would do but of course the part G as built by some on this forum had much too small of inductive reactance at the frequency they were wanting to use.

                The only real problem with raising the frequency is the inductive heating losses that will occur in the core unless the core is made of the proper materials.

                So for all practical purposes the coils would need to be rewound to allow for higher voltage and lower current. Just thought I would throw that other idea in there for those that might want to see how inductive reactance works since some on this thread seem to be pretty confused about all that.

                Later,
                Carroll

                Hello Carroll,

                Definitively yes, whenever we increase speed (frequency) of the switching, amps will lower down...and it really do not need to go into the kilohertz to see that...for example, when I set current limit to 2.0 amps and start at low speed it would oscillate around those 2.0 amps...However, when I increase speed I have to keep rising amps to reach the 1.5 levels, because it tends to go below one amp.

                The point here is that I need to reach the operating speed (@60Hz) to then set the current limiting on PSU that I want to work with.

                As, when I apply a load at output the PSU Voltage will definitively come down (Amps will remain the same by C.L.)...not much, but Voltage will, since it is the parameter which is set as Variable on PSU.

                Very good point there Citfta!!


                Regards


                Ufopolitics
                Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                Comment


                • @ Bistander and Citfta

                  @ Bistander and Citfta,

                  Now, since I got both of you here...I would like to ask some questions as how do you want me to FILM and SET the Circuit for the measuring of Volts and Amps IN versus Volts and Amps OUT from my device?

                  For example:

                  If I have a NO LOAD test, I could read FULL VOLTAGE OUT, plus FULL VOLT/AMPS INPUT (understanding at operating frequency)...BUT as I add a LOAD, Out Voltage Drops as OUT Amp meter will show a measure...As INPUT Voltage will also drop, while I keep IN amps steady by current limiting at PSU.

                  So, which measurements are the FINAL here?

                  Say I brake this TESTING into three stages:

                  NO LOAD FULL OPERATING FREQUENCY

                  1- Full Volts/Amps Input Readout

                  2- PLUS ONLY Output Voltage. (no load, no output amps)


                  LOADED OUTPUT AT FULL OPERATING FREQ.

                  1- INPUT Volts DROPS PLUS STEADY AMPS by CL

                  2- OUTPUT Volts DROPS and Amps could be read.


                  FULL SHORT CIRCUIT AT OUTPUT TERMINALS

                  By shorting out the generating coils terminals with the AMP METER it should show what I call "MAX SURGE AMPS"...Am I correct here guys?...while Voltage -of course- drops, but NEVER to zero nor negative values...


                  Thanks in advance


                  Regards


                  Ufopolitics

                  EDIT 1: Is understandable that I would be using a Diode Bridge at Output to convert to DC Volts-Amps, since PSU is delivering DC V and Amps at Input...and yes, forget about Diode losses here...they are considered "as disregarded" related to the output values...
                  Last edited by Ufopolitics; 07-12-2017, 03:52 PM.
                  Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                  Comment


                  • Reply

                    Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
                    ...
                    At the same token...IF My Geometry is TOO LONG and TOO SMALL in COIL THICKNESS...even with FULL POWER Magnetic Field would be very weak, why? because of area of Field distribution ALONG A LONGER IRON CORE REQUIRED...and guess what?...Both, working (Shorter Core) and not working (Longer Core) same core thickness Geometries would have EXACTLY SAME number of turns......Please explain that one

                    ...
                    Hi Ufo,

                    The explanation lies in the magnetic circuit and relationship of flux to mmf and reluctance. In your example the mmf remains the same but return path reluctance goes up.

                    And citfta,

                    Yes. I assumed (without stating so) that frequnecy was constant.

                    Regards to both of you,

                    bi

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by bistander View Post
                      Hi Ufo,

                      The explanation lies in the magnetic circuit and relationship of flux to mmf and reluctance. In your example the mmf remains the same but return path reluctance goes up.

                      bi
                      YES!!...Bistander...You are BRILLIANT friend!!, no matter what they say about you...

                      It EXACTLY bolts down to the return path of the coils, and as a matter of fact, my BEST set -on Generating Coils- is based on very short return paths coils, while building up higher layers (coil thickness I call it, but it could be coil height)...similar to PANCAKE COILS but with more than just one turn per layer, say like 10 to 15 turns of 16 awg.

                      I am also using steel strips (22 gauge) of about same length of those short coils, insulated by tape, rolled as a "clock spring" in between each coil or at "strategic positions" like center and extremes of core...they act as small magnetic field amplifiers between coils...

                      However, I would like to add (and I believe Elcheapo brought this issue a bit back) about core geometries versus coil geometry...if the coil geometry does not satisfy the core amount of mass for either ways...as either being too small or too big...it will not do the job to build the required field either.

                      If coil is too small for a big amount of steel...field would be absorbed by iron mass with very little or none Spatial projection outwards...and so, if coil is too big for too small mass of iron...then Field would not have the required strength.


                      Regards


                      Ufopolitics
                      Last edited by Ufopolitics; 07-12-2017, 04:10 PM.
                      Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                      Comment


                      • Test measurements

                        Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
                        @ Bistander and Citfta,

                        Now, since I got both of you here...I would like to ask some questions as how do you want me to FILM and SET the Circuit for the measuring of Volts and Amps IN versus Volts and Amps OUT from my device?

                        For example:

                        If I have a NO LOAD test, I could read FULL VOLTAGE OUT, plus FULL VOLT/AMPS INPUT (understanding at operating frequency)...BUT as I add a LOAD, Out Voltage Drops as OUT Amp meter will show a measure...As INPUT Voltage will also drop, while I keep IN amps steady by current limiting at PSU.

                        So, which measurements are the FINAL here?

                        Say I brake this TESTING into three stages:

                        NO LOAD FULL OPERATING FREQUENCY

                        1- Full Volts/Amps Input Readout

                        2- PLUS ONLY Output Voltage. (no load, no output amps)


                        LOADED OUTPUT AT FULL OPERATING FREQ.

                        1- INPUT Volts DROPS PLUS STEADY AMPS by CL

                        2- OUTPUT Volts DROPS and Amps could be read.


                        FULL SHORT CIRCUIT AT OUTPUT TERMINALS

                        By shorting out the generating coils terminals with the AMP METER it should show what I call "MAX SURGE AMPS"...Am I correct here guys?...while Voltage -of course- drops, but NEVER to zero nor negative values...


                        Thanks in advance


                        Regards


                        Ufopolitics

                        EDIT 1: Is understandable that I would be using a Diode Bridge at Output to convert to DC Volts-Amps, since PSU is delivering DC V and Amps at Input.
                        Hi Ufo,

                        A valid test in my mind for a device with only electrical inputs and outputs is, for all conditions:

                        Input Volts,
                        Input Amperes,
                        Scope shot of Volts and Amps (so we can tell if phase shift enters into power calculation),

                        Output Volts,
                        Output Amperes,
                        Scope shot of Volts & Amps.

                        All of the above simultaneously.

                        No load: should be zero amperes output (=open circuit output terminals).

                        Loaded conditions: place resistor (used as load) across output terminals. Output current is Amps thru resistor and output Volts is measured across the resistor terminals.

                        Short circuit: should imply zero output voltage. Placing an ammeter across output terminals will essentially satisfy zero output volts due to negligible ammeter resistance. If a clamp style ammeter is used, short output terminals with a short large gauge copper wire and clamp around it.

                        As with any test, date, time, temperature, personnel, place and other pertinent information should be noted.

                        Should be good for starters.

                        bi

                        PS. Note the power used by any additional devices contributing to the function of the test subject (like a motor turning a switching commutator).

                        PPS. Take measurements in a steady-state to eliminate dealing with transients. Simply insure the inputs and outputs remain unchanged for several seconds before and after the readings.
                        Last edited by bistander; 07-12-2017, 04:27 PM. Reason: Typo

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by bistander View Post
                          Hi Ufo,

                          A valid test in my mind for a device with only electrical inputs and outputs is, for all conditions:

                          Input Volts,
                          Input Amperes,
                          Scope shot of Volts and Amps (so we can tell if phase shift enters into power calculation),

                          Output Volts,
                          Output Amperes,
                          Scope shot of Volts & Amps.

                          All of the above simultaneously.
                          Hello Bistander,

                          I need a bit of info here, please, How can the scope show currents (Amps) in either Input or Output?

                          I believe have to use a specific resistor of 100 ohms or something like?

                          Simultaneity of I/O Readings : Now, one problem here...I only have one Scope and it only have two channels...to give all four parameters simultaneously that's impossible.

                          Originally posted by bistander View Post
                          No load: should be zero amperes output (=open circuit output terminals).
                          Correct.

                          Originally posted by bistander View Post
                          Loaded conditions: place resistor (used as load) across output terminals. Output current is Amps thru resistor and output Volts is measured across the resistor terminals.
                          I have used a small automotive bulb (1157) from the high amps filament (shorter and thicker tungsten) as a resistor, since at the same time it shows brightness gain as I speed up rotary switch...I have also used a Headlamp Bulb which requires also higher amperage to lit up.

                          Originally posted by bistander View Post
                          Short circuit: should imply zero output voltage. Placing an ammeter across output terminals will essentially satisfy zero output volts due to negligible ammeter resistance. If a clamp style ammeter is used, short output terminals with a short large gauge copper wire and clamp around it.
                          It should imply zero voltage on a complete short of the output terminals right?...that's exactly what I thought...however, guess what?...it don't go to zero at all, as a matter of fact with latest tests it shows around 4.23 - 4.40 Volts DC at FULL SHORT from amp meter.

                          I have also used my EXTECH Clamp for AC and DC Amps right at one of the coil wires...identical results as the inline meter...

                          Originally posted by bistander View Post
                          As with any test, date, time, temperature, personnel, place and other pertinent information should be noted.

                          Should be good for starters.

                          bi
                          Correct

                          Originally posted by bistander View Post
                          PS. Note the power used by any additional devices contributing to the function of the test subject (like a motor turning a switching commutator).
                          Of course, they would be shown, however, we would be considering only for calculations here the full Input from the PSU feeding the Exciter Coils versus the Full Output from Output Coils correct?

                          On this testings am using Three PSU's...

                          #1- The Linear one with analog meters backed up by two digital EXTECH showing Volts-Amps feeds the Exciting Coils via brush-commutator on rotary switch.

                          #2- The Rotary switch motor is fed by a switching PSU and spends at full speed around 27.0 V and like 0.8 Amps

                          #3- The brushless cooling fan for the small motor and switch assy (brushes-commutator, etc) uses the third PSU and uses like 11.V and 0.08 amps.

                          The last two PSU's (#2,#3) are steady at those wattage values during operation.

                          Originally posted by bistander View Post
                          PPS. Take measurements in a steady-state to eliminate dealing with transients. Simply insure the inputs and outputs remain unchanged for several seconds before and after the readings.
                          My EXTECH Meters go all the way to the 0.000 decimals, or the mills values...and sorry Bistander but the decimals are never steady during operation for either volts nor amps...However, if we are talking about the main number in front of the point (solid or whole number >1)...yes, I understand what you mean.

                          As also the following decimal right after the point does not fluctuate much unless when it changes from 1.499 to 1.500


                          Thanks and regards



                          Ufopolitics
                          Last edited by Ufopolitics; 07-12-2017, 05:16 PM.
                          Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
                            I need a bit of info here, please, How can the scope show currents (Amps) in either Input or Output?

                            I believe have to use a specific resistor of 100 ohms or something like?
                            Yeah, 2 channels are needed. Use a common ground on the two, say power supply negative. Then the V trace probe goes on power supply positive. You have a current viewing resistor connected to power supply negative and then to the device being tested. Connect the other probe to the shunt on the connection to the test subject.

                            Current viewing resistor is often called a meter shunt or just "shunt". They are available in low resistance (milli or micro ohms) such that the current range of intetest is measured in millivolts. Your scope can surely handle millivolts. A reasonable shunt for this test might be one rated at 50mV for 10A. So when the scope shows 5mV it is reading 1A. 10mV is 2A, 20mV is 4A and so on.

                            I fail to see how you get ~4V on a short circuit. Try the shunt across the output. That will keep it essentially to zero (millivolts).

                            Regards,

                            bi

                            Comment


                            • Ufo,

                              Don't worry about fluctuations in the thousandths decimal place and even a bit in the hundredths is acceptable.

                              Got to go.... later.

                              bi

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by bistander View Post
                                Yeah, 2 channels are needed. Use a common ground on the two, say power supply negative. Then the V trace probe goes on power supply positive. You have a current viewing resistor connected to power supply negative and then to the device being tested. Connect the other probe to the shunt on the connection to the test subject.
                                If I understand you correctly, shunt resistor should have one terminal as a common ground by connecting to Scope probes ground and PSU negative, as the other terminal from shunt resistor to one Output terminal?
                                To then add the second channel Probe trace to the other resistor terminal and also to the other output terminal?

                                Understood correct?

                                Originally posted by bistander View Post
                                Current viewing resistor is often called a meter shunt or just "shunt". They are available in low resistance (milli or micro ohms) such that the current range of intetest is measured in millivolts. Your scope can surely handle millivolts. A reasonable shunt for this test might be one rated at 50mV for 10A. So when the scope shows 5mV it is reading 1A. 10mV is 2A, 20mV is 4A and so on.
                                I believe I have one...have to look for it.

                                Originally posted by bistander View Post
                                I fail to see how you get ~4V on a short circuit. Try the shunt across the output. That will keep it essentially to zero (millivolts).

                                Regards,

                                bi
                                Bistander, even if I literally joint both output terminals wire to wire...I get the same results.

                                As the Scope trace on output will not go flat line either...but similar to a square wave above zero.

                                EDIT 1: Only way I could understand this...is that GENERATING COILS keeps sourcing A VOLTAGE with the Max Surge Amps, no matter if short circuited.

                                If we do that on a battery...well, besides all the heat and sparks...it will drop to zero...as in any other CONSTANT AND LIMITED SOURCE OF POWER.

                                Other interesting result is that coils will not even get warm by shorting them out...Iron Core will get warm... though.

                                Amp meters say this short test could not go above 15 minutes at 10 Amps...guess it will blow their fuse.


                                Regards



                                Ufopolitics
                                Last edited by Ufopolitics; 07-12-2017, 06:57 PM.
                                Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X