Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera

[Cornboy 555]

This is all helpful for folks coming to this thread for information on the Figuera device.

It is Great to read discussion like this without the personal stuff clouding every sentence.

Well Done All.

Best Regards Cornboy.

[bistander]

System

Bistander;

Ok, lets try a different point of view or direction.
lets say that their really is no such thing as a closed system on earth or the Universe but just two separate system working in tandem for easier understanding.

The primaries, second secondary and part G is one system and the secondary and the load is another system. the first system influences the second but at no time is the power in the first used or transferred into the second and in no way can the second system influence the first. the two systems are completely separate and remain that way.

MM

OK MM, Let's forget "closed systems". Then I think I understand what you're saying.

A) First System: Consists of primaries (one pair), second secondary*, and part G.

B) Second System: Consists of a secondary and load.

Good so far? Then you go on to state the following:

1. A influences B.

2. No power from A is transferred into or used by B.

3. B can not influence A.

4. A & B are completely separate.

That is what you said, right? Then I have a few questions.

Q1.) Doesn't the second system (B) include primaries?

Q2.) Aren't the primaries powered by part G?

Q3.) Since part G is in the first system (A) and is used to excite the primaries needed by the secondary in the second system (B), violation of 2 occurs (power transferred from A to B). Doesn't it?

Q4.) Since B will not function without primaries, and all primaries are connected together at part G, aren't both A and B influenced by each other in the electric circuit?

Q5.) Since the coils in A and B have significant magnetic path lengths in air (not confined to an iron core), and A & B are in the same vicinity, would you not expect magnetic coupling, mutual inductance or influence of some degree?

*I don't understand why it is called the 'second' secondary. Will the device run with only one secondary? Self run with only one secondary and no load?

Regards,

bi

[Cornboy 555]

OK MM, Let's forget "closed systems". Then I think I understand what you're saying.

A) First System: Consists of primaries (one pair), second secondary*, and part G.

B) Second System: Consists of a secondary and load.

Good so far? Then you go on to state the following:

1. A influences B.

2. No power from A is transferred into or used by B.

3. B can not influence A.

4. A & B are completely separate.

That is what you said, right? Then I have a few questions.

Q1.) Doesn't the second system (B) include primaries?

Q2.) Aren't the primaries powered by part G?

Q3.) Since part G is in the first system (A) and is used to excite the primaries needed by the secondary in the second system (B), violation of 2 occurs (power transferred from A to B). Doesn't it?

Q4.) Since B will not function without primaries, and all primaries are connected together at part G, aren't both A and B influenced by each other in the electric circuit?

Q5.) Since the coils in A and B have significant magnetic path lengths in air (not confined to an iron core), and A & B are in the same vicinity, would you not expect magnetic coupling, mutual inductance or influence of some degree?

*I don't understand why it is called the 'second' secondary. Will the device run with only one secondary? Self run with only one secondary and no load?

Regards,

bi

Hello Bistander, i hope Mm doesn't mind me butting in here, but from the nature of your questions, it seems you are either missing what has been discussed already on both Figuera threads, or you are deliberately trying to confuse the issues involving the building of this Device.

Looking at some of the help you have offered other people to understand electronics and electrical things in general i take it that you are classically trained,{ unlike me }, and want to Help others understand.

All i can say, or offer you, is the advice, to build and then understand yourself.

If you do not attempt a practical, hands on build, and discover for yourself what is fact, or not, you will always be in limbo, not understanding fully what is attempting to be shown or disclosed.

You don't have to spend a fortune, you can, with a small effort and some will, scavenge parts for near nothing to build this device.

Used and discarded UPS'S have toroids, microwave ovens have transformers, etc,etc.

Just don't ever loose sight of the era this devise was built, No silicon switches or tiny micro controllers, to fizzzz out, just a down to earth approach to back engineer a classic generator of Electricity.

Regards Cornboy.

[Ufopolitics]

Different views...General and Detailed

Hi Ufo,

See the femm diagrams done by CadMan. It sure looks to me like all the flux going thru the secondary is the same flux going thru the primaries.

Regards,

bi

Hello Bistander,

Well, obviously you are just following the flux path then reaching your conclusion above...

Yes it is the same flux going from primaries to secondary...But, that is a very general -meaning, not detailed- observation of what is taking place there.

1-First, the Flux from Primary N (Left Side of Secondary) is moving -according to arrows- from Left to Right.

2-The Flux from Primary S (Right of Secondary) is moving -according to arrows- from Right to Left.

3- The Secondary is receiving two completely opposite flows -according to arrows- from both Primaries.

Conclusion: None of the Three components contain the same type of Flux Directions.

Hope you could be able to observe this scenario the way I am describing it above.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[marathonman]

Impedance

Cifta;

YES !

Cornboy;

Thank you, but it does take all involved to accomplish said task. and of course i don't mind fellow builder.

Bistander;

While a second secondary can be used to power the device connected to part G i might of mixed two different patent.... in that case we will use just one for clarity.

Part G controls the currant through the primaries and recycles the power through that system, this is one system.
the second system is the secondary and the load in which a fraction of that is used to replace losses in the first system and power the motor to spin the brush. very little is used in this process so a majority is used for the load.
these two systems are separate, system A causes induction in system B but has NO electrical connection to it so basically A influences B but B has NO influence on A because the field is out side the core of the primaries. at no time does B have any interaction with A but Both A primaries interact with each other maintaining pressure between them.
Note;
if the impedance in B system drops system A will dump more currant to the field causing system B to have more power in it's system but this is the only influence B has on A.

if the unison between the primaries is lost or the pressure between them is taken down to far the induction between A to B will drop to the peak of the rising electromagnet in which is 50 % reduction of the original 100 %, both primaries added together.
the field in the secondary is a spatial mix of both primaries....ie induction but the secondaries field does not influence the primaries as both there magnetic field is outside their respective cores.

UFOP;

Quote;
"3- The Secondary is receiving two completely opposite flows -according to arrows- from both Primaries."

I tend to disagree with this statement because while we do have two different primaries influencing the secondary we need to look at the Lenz law in which is what is maintaining the pressure between the the two primaries. since we have two separate primary magnetic fields opposing that is not what is maintaining the pressure between them, that is from the lenz law because one primary is increasing and one is receding both induced are in the same direction and this is what is causing the double strength E field. if unison is not maintained or reduction is to low the pressure between them will drop to the peak of the rising electromagnet.

The lenz law is what is keeping the two field from combining maintaining the pressure between them while the E field do combine causing the double strength E field.

I hope this makes sense to you and all.

This is just my two cents my friend, no harm intended.


MM

[Ufopolitics]

OK MM, Let's forget "closed systems". Then I think I understand what you're saying.

A) First System: Consists of primaries (one pair), second secondary*, and part G.

B) Second System: Consists of a secondary and load.

Good so far? Then you go on to state the following:

Hello Bistander,

Please allow me to answer your questions...

On A) Not necessarily the term "primaries" need to be just one pair...as it could be many sets.

1. A influences B.

2. No power from A is transferred into or used by B.

3. B can not influence A.

4. A & B are completely separate.

That is what you said, right? Then I have a few questions.

That's correct

Q1.) Doesn't the second system (B) include primaries?

Nope!, the First System is just the "EXCITER" System as in any Electric Generator.

If you wanna refer to the term "Generator" then it does includes both, Exciter and Generating Fields...a simple "Two Part Generator".

Q2.) Aren't the primaries powered by part G?

Not necessarily, Part G basically "Controls Currents" disbursed to both Primaries...it is more of a "Controller" than a Source. And actually the "Source" (who powers the whole Exciter System would be first done by an external source, like cited by Figuera. After operational speed takes place then the "Second Secondary" would take over self sustaining the Exciter System...same way as the Exciter Stator Fields in any Self Excited Generator takes over after reminiscent magnetism starts the first "priming feed" to Rotor Field.

Q3.) Since part G is in the first system (A) and is used to excite the primaries needed by the secondary in the second system (B), violation of 2 occurs (power transferred from A to B). Doesn't it?

Then the same "violation" occurs in Electric Generators...where the Exciter System is in charge to -not only- auto or self excite itself, but also it excites the Generating Fields which are to be loaded...right?

The "Power" transferred from A to B is exactly done the same way as it takes place in an Electric Generator Exciter's System to the Generating Fields to Mains...And it is transferred through a very well known principle called "Electromagnetic Induction".

Q4.) Since B will not function without primaries, and all primaries are connected together at part G, aren't both A and B influenced by each other in the electric circuit?

They are "influenced" exactly the same way as an Electric Generator Exciter System "Influences" the Generating Fields...

Q5.) Since the coils in A and B have significant magnetic path lengths in air (not confined to an iron core), and A & B are in the same vicinity, would you not expect magnetic coupling, mutual inductance or influence of some degree?

I will ask you the same question related to an Electric Generator (and I am pretty sure you could answer it yourself)...

Does the Exciter Field and the Generating Field have "magnetic coupling" or "mutual inductance" of some degree?

*I don't understand why it is called the 'second' secondary. Will the device run with only one secondary? Self run with only one secondary and no load?

Regards,

bi

Second Secondary term applies exactly the same way as it does in an Electric Generator Exciter Stator Fields...which are in charge -by being directly connected- to feedback the rotor field coils , therefore, keeping the Magnetic Field ON at Rotor Field at all times.

Clemente Figuera Patent does not tries to make absolutely ANY RADICAL Changes to the "Two Part" Existing Electric Generator Structure...but only to the fact of making the "Field Changes" cited in Faraday's First Law of Induction, based on Currents Fluctuations which MIMICS, the needed Physical Movement Method of the Exciter Field utilized so far in all Electric Generators.

Other than above fact, or not requiring any physical movement of the Exciting Field(s), the rest remains exactly the same ways and structures used in any Electric Generator.


Hope this post helps You understand what we are all doing here...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Facts

... it seems you are either missing what has been discussed already on both Figuera threads, or you are deliberately trying to confuse the issues involving the building of this Device.
...

Hello Cornboy,

Thanks for the civil reply. First, how can facts confuse the issue. You should welcome facts. Only those with something to hide prohibit facts from the discussion.

And I am missing something from these threads. Answers to my questions can help fill in the blanks.

I fully intend to build a device, or buy one at such time it can be demonstrated to my satisfaction by test or theory and appropriate specifications of operation assigned to it.

The 'whole' assembly, or complete Figuera machine is claimed to do something unique which defies wisdom. On these threads we see the components develop. Do not these components adhere to rules and laws of our knowledge base? Is a coil not a coil? Is its inductance not the same as any other coil built with the same parts? Why does flat wire have more inductance on a Figuera coil when it makes no difference in inductance on every other coil it has ever wound? Why have I been belittled, insulted, and scorned for asking these reasonable questions?

I understand that some people prefer just to build and see. Good for them. I, on the other hand, prefer to understand what I build or buy. I have stayed off the 'build' thread but do follow and read it. When I come across falsehoods I point those out on this thread. Those interested in the truth and the facts may see my comments on this thread. Those not interested in knowledge can ignore me. I try hard to stay on topic and deal only with what is written and not be judgemental or insulting or name-call.

Good luck with your project and I wish you success.

bi

[Ufopolitics]

UFOP;

Quote;
"3- The Secondary is receiving two completely opposite flows -according to arrows- from both Primaries."

I tend to disagree with this statement because while we do have two different primaries influencing the secondary we need to look at the Lenz law in which is what is maintaining the pressure between the the two primaries. since we have two separate primary magnetic fields opposing that is not what is maintaining the pressure between them, that is from the lenz law because one primary is increasing and one is receding both induced are in the same direction and this is what is causing the double strength E field. if unison is not maintained or reduction is to low the pressure between them will drop to the peak of the rising electromagnet.

The lenz law is what is keeping the two field from combining maintaining the pressure between them while the E field do combine causing the double strength E field.

I hope this makes sense to you and all.


MM

Hello MM,


I am sorry, but I do not see it that way...I actually do not mix Lenz Law here with the receding primary field...

The receding Field (which is deliberately executed by Part G and not by Lenz Law) allows the increasing Field to displace spatially (by gaining space path) through secondary core...while keeping the same pressure at their common intersected High Pressure Repulse Field

Other words...receding field "grants room" for the increasing Field to advance forward through secondary core, while keeping same pressure at Main Repulse Field formed by the two primaries fields.

The main cause for Induction here is just The Generated and Spatially Compressed Repulse Field by both Primaries.

And I rather don't talk about the E Field...since we both have different concepts between Electric Field and Magnetic Fields...

To me, the main Field to be observed and played with here is the Magnetic Field...while the Electric Field is just a "consequence" of the first.

I know you do not see it this way though...but it is ok to agree to disagree.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[seaad]

Some pictures from reality. Far from OU anyhow! A Total power factor of some % is possible.

Pic 1) Note the input Power value DC & output Power value AC

Power factor AC alone about 80% !!

Pic 3) Zero line, Pic 4) Only AC injected Pic 5) AC and DC input (Oscilloscope pictures from input to N,S coils)

Regards / Arne

[Ufopolitics]

Some pictures from reality. Far from OU anyhow! A power factor of some % is possible.

Note the input Power value DC & output Power valueAC

Regards / Arne

Seead,


No OU would be shown until you start reproducing primaries-secondaries sets.

It is very simple math...you use the same Exciting Field Power (V & A) to excite several secondaries which output is connected in series...just like it is done in a typical Electric Generator.

If you build an Electric Generator, where the Output Coils would just be one pair of coils, exactly the same as the Exciter Field Stator Coils...then you will have approx a 1:1 ratio...you spend 400W, then you get 400W minus losses...So, no "OU" either.


Ufopolitics

[seaad]

Ok UFOP let's build some 100 pairs then. . . BUT!
Arne

[Ufopolitics]

Ok UFOP let's build some 100 pairs then. . . BUT!
Arne

With my small motor, plus the rotary switch assembly...that only spends like 17 Watts ...I could "spin" not just 100 Primaries-Secondaries...but 1000's and more and more if I wanted to...as there are absolutely no limits. And so, Motor and Switch will keep spending EXACTLY same power...no matter what loads are applied...or how many sets are involved on the whole system...

This principle is so simple...

Say I could literally replace any farting machine attached to any Generator Head...with my small motor-rotary switch...and still output same power as if the ICE would be at work...but only spending 17 Watts in "Mechanical Motion"...

All I have to do is build a Static Rotor Field Core-Coil set which MIMICS the Magnetic Field Rotation that farting ICE Shaft does to Exciting Magnetic Field, with same intensity, same rotational angles-speed...without actually moving any mass...except that of the small motor and brush...same 17 Watts...


That simple of an "Analogy"...but why is it so hard to understand?

Maybe because of the "frustrations implied" that would represent such demonstration?

It would be a REAL HISTORICAL EMBARRASSMENT wouldn't it?

Then, So be it...and by all means be ALL My Guests...


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Primaries

Q1.) Doesn't the second system (B) include primaries?

Nope!, the First System is just the "EXCITER" System as in any Electric Generator.

Thanks for the reply Ufo. Refer to the diagram below. Each secondary has its own pair of primaries. So how can you say "Nope" to any system (actually a subsystem) which includes a secondary not having a primary (pair)?
bi

[IMG]
[/IMG]

Above is the same exact image from original patent...except for the color lines and numbers are mine.
...

[Ufopolitics]

Thanks for the reply Ufo. Refer to the diagram below. Each secondary has its own pair of primaries. So how can you say "Nope" to any system (actually a subsystem) which includes a secondary not having a primary (pair)?
bi

My pleasure Bistander,

Listen friend, bottom line is that ALL your previous questions would be answered only if you establish an Analogy with any existing and Comparable Electric Generator.

Like I wrote before...ALL Figuera does is to MIMIC the Exciting Field Mechanical Rotation by a simple controller and small motor design, which is in charge to fluctuate currents feeding primaries by weakening and strengthening at unison to the Exciting Magnetic Field.

I have realized the Terms "Primaries" and "Secondaries"...or "Second Secondaries" tend to big time confusion since NONE of these terms APPLY to Electric Generator Vocabulary...but only utilized in Transformers.

As a matter of fact, Figuera NEVER USES ANY OF THOSE TERMS on ABSOLUTELY ANY of his Patents.

He refers to Inductor and Induced and that's all...no "Primary", no "Secondary"...much less "Second secondary"

So, I rather refer to EXCITING SYSTEM and to GENERATING SYSTEM...Which DO, relate DIRECTLY to ANY TWO PARTS Electric Generators.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Simple analogy

..
That simple of an "Analogy"...but why is it so hard to understand?
...

Hi Ufo, pardon me seaad,

That is simple to understand. It is your (referring not to just you Ufo) explanations of the methods which present difficulty in comprehension. Especially when such methods are based on obvious falsehoods.

But if you (again, not just Ufo) can assemble a collection of ordinary parts and do something extraordinary with the contraption, more power to you.

Regards,

bi