My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[HuntingRoss]

OK.

A question to those that have undeniably invested heavily in this thread.

If my SC posts offend or detract from your work, please ask me to remove the SC work to my own thread.

Obviously Midaz has excluded himself from the vote on the basis that he has an interest in his A1MoGen.

Happy Hunting

mark

[Ufopolitics]

Sc7?

OK.

A question to those that have undeniably invested heavily in this thread.

If my SC posts offend or detract from your work, please ask me to remove the SC work to my own thread.

Obviously Midaz has excluded himself from the vote on the basis that he has an interest in his A1MoGen.

Happy Hunting

mark

Hello Mark, hello to all,

We exchanged pm's before related to your design, and I said it is OK to post it here, it is an interesting and different research end, that still does not move away completely from Asymmetry.

I like the way you have set your output brushes related to rotation sense, which gives a wider angle to take induction and add it to the one carried/stored within coils from input.

I would like you to do a future complete Asymmetric Model (2 comm) with Five Pole Coils...to test it against your SC6...or another one with Five Poles Coils Group...maybe a SC7?

I believe your SC6 is 4 poles per coil right?

Thanks for all you work Mark!


Regards to All


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

Thank you UFO.

Yes. SC#6 is 4 poles per coil / 3 coils per group. And the angle is certainly picking up some effect I can not explain. The output voltage is exceeding the input voltage at voltages above 10v. This is demonstrated in the higher wattage output driving an OEM 450w motor.

My last 2 comm test on the Beast still couldn't out torque the OEM. I tried all sorts of permutations to no avail. But never say die...

I have a few more mods on the SC model to enhance torque and output before it either proves itself or is abandoned. It has also been a useful learning platform.

Happy Hunting

mark

[YahwehisSpirit]

Your welcome!

Also, I had changed my original plan halfway into it from using 2 motors to make one. I decided instead to use 3 armatures, pushing 2 shafts until they meet in the middle armature. (I can only hope the middle armature laminates don't come apart under the vibration.)

Instead of using the motor casings, I may try to build an open frame to hold the magnets, so you can see everything. My only issue is time.

Im doing pretty much what you did but with two!! what kind of epoxy do you think i should use to insulate and bind the whole thing? while putting them together some of the armatures metal pices came off..... or do i need to at all?? i would also like to know if its a bad thing for the commutator to be between the magnets in the motor???? Here are some picks im just waiting on my commutators and my fiberfix ^_^

[HuntingRoss]

i would also like to know if its a bad thing for the commutator to be between the magnets in the motor????

It's unlikely to be bad as they're always in close proximity, but I would be surprised that there was sufficient room for that to happen.

Happy Hunting

mark

[HuntingRoss]

SC#6 Schematic added and SC#7 3 coil 5 pole groups in Pairs 20 turns per coil commenced http://www.energeticforum.com/271717-post7384.html

[brian516]

Hello Brian516 and Welcome aboard,

Don't worry about your previous confusion, it is not your fault.

As you could see this guy is not there to help anyone, just to insist/push his "design" of single poles Imperial as "his own idea"...however, he is using ALL my CAD's and all my designs to run that thread.

He has never wound any other motor than the Imperial he has been working on for over two years...

Never has put together a small motor as the one you have.

One of my first Diagrams here on post#96 written on 7/14/2012 was about a SINGLE COIL THREE POLE MOTOR and Diagram below:

[IMG][/IMG]

And as I wrote there, this type of winding is applicable to other configuration in bigger machines.

But hey, let's talk about your five pole and forget about all 'counterfeit material'

First do not listen to that guy about winding your motor with a HEAVIER GAUGE, pure nonsense, you use the SAME or FINER GAUGE and motor will run perfectly smooth and fine.

The Imperial he is working on is originally wound with 16 awg and NOT with 18 awg like he is doing it right now...so, forgive him, he is full of it to the top of his head, and it does not allow him to think properly.

About the Mechanical Set Up:

To remove all epoxy resin and separate plastic fan, you will need a very sharp and fine blade and be very careful with fingers. try getting blade in between without damaging the epoxy on rotor metal.

After fan out and all epoxy in slots, between poles taken out, you need to spread open each commutator hook, going from above to brake them apart to be able to pull wires out with a fine needle nose pliers, do it to both motors commutators. Do not apply heat with a soldering gun, as you may brake the comm copper elements from mica, then commutator is not good anymore.

To pull one commutator out to use it on main motor you have to do it EVENLY FROM BELOW, meaning, DO NOT PUSH ONLY from one element or it will brake apart. Do not try to turn commutator while on shaft either, shaft has straight splines and you will brake it if forcing to turn it.

This motors have enough room to add second commutator, but you may have to force shaft a bit up (towards shaft take off power), leaving less space at bottom of motor (back) enough to get shaft inside rear bushing...just measure distances.

The other part to do is to 'elongate' or extrude the Main outer casing...where you may have to cut a ring off the end of second motor where brushes are mounted, it is all about doing the right measurements where to cut. At Main Motor you have to cut rear end to solder or glue the brush ring and use the housing and brushes from second motor. When you do all this cutting and soldering is better to remove magnets from casing. I have a 175 Watts Soldering Gun that could do that job easily. If you do not have that kind of gun, you could use epoxy or other glue compounds to 'weld' metal.

Make sure before soldering the whole ring , tack it first and test freedom of shaft movement (not binding) by assembling the whole motor together with magnets and all brushes.

When pressing the second commutator, make sure it is perfectly aligned to bottom one (the original that came with motor), meaning, aligning element to element in a linear fashion, as well as when you solder the casing ring, make sure it will hold brushes seating identical above and below.

About the winding:

Once you have all mechanical structures finished...the easier part is to wind it.

The first winding on this Five Pole Motor was displayed here
and CAD below:

[IMG][/IMG]

Here you could use different type of windings, including the Pentagon type or the 'Single Coil' unbelievable idea of this guy..., and I have all drawings to follow up the winding method of your choice.

[IMG][/IMG]

However, I recommend to wind the All North Type, where all coils (no matter if single or pairs) are wound all in same direction, like I have shown on the post I cited link above, on the three pole first motor I have shown here.

Below is a video on a five pole where I test/compare the North-South Pairs versus the All North Pairs.

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diY96XR76Fg[/VIDEO]


Cheers and remember to be careful with blade.


Good luck friend.


Ufopolitics

Hi there UFO and all,

Sorry I didn't follow up directly after my last post and UFO's reply, I got a bit busy. Picked up an O-scope and had to clean it and get it functioning properly, and learn the basics of getting stable traces. I've never used a scope before, so it ate up all my time at first, but now I'm close to the point where I have a little more free time to spend on actual projects, too. I'm going to get started on my 5-pole build soon, but first I'm going to do a little more research into what type of windings I will go with. I'm just going to use the wire that I have available. The new wire that I have that is close to the factory size is 22awg, but for used, I have a decent variety. (just have to make sure I don't use any that has left-over epoxy stuck to it!)
I'm open to suggestions for every aspect of this build.

As for bonding the cases together, I could use JB weld, or, if my friend over at the machine shop isn't too busy, I could have him weld it for me. In that case, he has the proper tools available to get a perfectly straight cut on each case and get it aligned correctly for the weld.

both shafts are a little bit short for my liking, and would leave very little room for me to use it as a prime mover for other projects later on, and also for any kind of testing, so I'm probably going to see if any of the local shops have SS rod of the correct size that I can grab. Usually they give me their small scraps for free, and bigger scraps for the price by weight of recycled metals.
The other option I have would be to pull off some of the laminations and free up some more room on the shaft.

Brian

[YahwehisSpirit]

It's unlikely to be bad as they're always in close proximity, but I would be surprised that there was sufficient room for that to happen.

Happy Hunting

mark

Lol deff sufficient room and deff happening. Again is there a certain epoxy to get to re insulate my rotors as one. Ill post some picks later today reading UFO's post worrys me that i might not beable to use one.....

[YahwehisSpirit]

Stator not Rotor lol

Sorry i've been saying rotor and I've been reffering o the stator. A few Laminations came off on one stator. is that ok? do i need to re apply epoxy to reinsulate the stator???

[MagnaMoRo]

Sorry i've been saying rotor and I've been reffering o the stator. A few Laminations came off on one stator. is that ok? do i need to re apply epoxy to reinsulate the stator???

I think you mean "A few lamination came off you armature".
The armature rotates. A stator is a motionless part.

Not being critical, just helping.

I would just press them together on the shaft and apply a thin cote of epoxy on the inside of the armature wire canals.

use non-conductive epoxy. And be shure not to use something like a clear nail polish, as it may contain Acetone and could take off insulation on Coil wires.

[YahwehisSpirit]

Thankyou for being Critical it helps ^_^

I think you mean "A few lamination came off you armature".
The armature rotates. A stator is a motionless part.

Not being critical, just helping.

I would just press them together on the shaft and apply a thin cote of epoxy on the inside of the armature wire canals.

use non-conductive epoxy. And be shure not to use something like a clear nail polish, as it may contain Acetone and could take off insulation on Coil wires.

Thankyou!! So the many laminations epoxyed together make up the armature? Thankyou much!! ive been waiting to find out what kind to get!!!

[YahwehisSpirit]

???

Do i understand right? will gorilla glue work?

[MagnaMoRo]

Thankyou!! So the many laminations epoxyed together make up the armature? Thankyou much!! ive been waiting to find out what kind to get!!!

Your armature pics look good.

I used the flat side of a metal file to sand the pre-existing epoxy off of the sides of the armatures so that they fit snug together.

I have no idea if gorilla glue will work, but I would recommend a fast curing two part epoxy. For this small job you can probably find small tubes of the stuff in your local hardware store.

But, its all about experimentation in the open source community, that and sharing your results (good or bad).

Keep going with it and let us know!

[YahwehisSpirit]

Most deffinately!!

Your armature pics look good.

I used the flat side of a metal file to sand the pre-existing epoxy off of the sides of the armatures so that they fit snug together.

I have no idea if gorilla glue will work, but I would recommend a fast curing two part epoxy. For this small job you can probably find small tubes of the stuff in your local hardware store.

But, its all about experimentation in the open source community, that and sharing your results (good or bad).

Keep going with it and let us know!

Yeah lol i was using my box cutter to scrape at it... i think ill file it some more. Its not completely flush though because some of the laminations are bent ona corner pushing up in a small area..

my fiber fix came in ^_^ and i got gorilla glue 2part 5min bond epoxy im going to use a small paint brush to paint the thin layer on the armatures and im going to put a coat between them to bond them as one...

Im so excited about this but my damn commutators dont get here from china till the 26 of this month to the 20th of Freaking APRIL!!! and i cant seem to find anywhere else to get them... Ufo made a vid of m as king a commutator but where do you get the mica and stuff??

Yeah im deff gunna keep posted so i gethelp and advice on the way!!!

[HuntingRoss]

Hybrid Sym / Asym Motor (Continued from #7384)

Continued from Post #7384 http://www.energeticforum.com/271717-post7384.html

SC#7 Build and Tests

3 coil 5 pole groups in Pairs. 20 turns per coil @ 0.425mm wire. Schematic at the bottom and photos to follow.

This is bordeline to not being able to complete. The last coil of one group overlaps the first coil of the other group causing a bump. This is compounded by the 5 pole coils cross the horizon of the shaft causing the wires to stack at the centre of the rotor. This makes the wires rise quickly at the centre making it difficult to avoid the commutator and the final coils are too level with the tabs to make an easy contact. I was just able to complete the wind at 20 turns per coil but had to devise a way to prevent the coils from falling out of the slots. I bound the wires in place by cotton thread by winding around the poles and thereby jumping from pole to pole at the top and bottom of the armature.

5.38v PSU no load
SC#7 - 5.06v @ 1.15A @ 1197rpm @ 3.75v out (5.82W)
Connect SC#5 to SC#7 output
SC#7 - 4.97v @ 1.98A @ 932rpm @ 1.82v out (9.84W)
SC#5 - 1.82v @ 1.50A @ 684rpm (2.73W)
Connect OEM 450W to SC#7 output
SC#7 - 4.97v @ 2.04A @ 932rpm @ 1.75v out (10.14W)
450W - 1.75v @ 1.48A @ 26rpm (2.59W)

10.35v PSU no load
SC#7 - 10.24v @ 1.10A @ 2676rpm @ 8.49v out (11.26W)
Connect SC#5 to SC#7 output
SC#7 - 10.08v @ 2.21A @ 2429rpm @ 6.35v out (22.28W)
SC#5 - 6.35v @ 1.73A @ 3478rpm (10.99W)
Connect OEM 450W to SC#7 output
SC#7 - 10.09v @ 2.21A @ 2461rpm @ 6.37v out (22.30W)
450W - 6.37v @ 1.63A @ 118rpm (10.38W)

25.7v scooter controller no load
SC#7 - 24.9v @ 1.59A @ 6772rpm @ 20.9v out (39.59W)
Connect SC#5 to SC#7 output
SC#7 - 24.1v @ 3.07A @ 6448rpm @ 24v out (fluctuating)
SC#5 - 24v varies @ 2.53A @ 9165rm
Connect OEM 450W to SC#7 output
SC#7 - 24.1v @ 3.17A @ 6486rpm @ 17.9v out (76.40W)
450W - 17.9v @ 2.21A @ 351rpm (39.56W)

Scooter no load rear wheel 1149rpm

Tether test 7.5kg 88% (approaching the OEM 8.5kg)

[IMG][/IMG]

--S--

So, it's been bothering me how to compare different motor configurations. Some dismiss themselves but many have certain qualities which look like they may be useful. I've started to express outputs in Watts because the Volts/Amps readings vary wildly sometimes. But that still doesn't crystalise it for me.

Now this may not be new, it may even be flawed, but the following does seem to bring a certain sense to the process.

For me a motor must possess torque for the least expenditure of power to set itself above its competitors. As a baseline they must equal or better the OEM.

(apologies if this doesn't tabulate very well - also I will call my static tether test 'torque' as it is a basis to compare the strength of motors by simply hitching it to a spring balance expressed in Kg.)

24v motor tests :

OEM~1.13A~3840rpm~27W~8.8kg
SC5~3.60A~13128rpm~90W~5.7kg
SC6~2.13A~8506rpm~53W~5.9kg
SC7~1.59A~6772rpm~40W~7.5kg

Expressing all of that as a percentage of the OEM :

OEM~100%A~100%rpm~100%W~100%kg
SC5~318%A~342%rpm~333%W~65%kg
SC6~188%A~221%rpm~196%W~67%kg
SC7~140%A~176%rpm~148%W~85%kg

And for simple maths if a motor doubled the Watts and doubled the RPM then the nett result would be comparable to the OEM and would be expressed as %RPM divided by %Watts (%RPM/%W) which would equal One (1) in this example. If the result is more than 1 there is a nett advantage over the OEM.

So for the above :

SC5~342/333=1.03
SC6~221/196=1.13
SC7~176/148=1.19

That puts SC7 ahead of the OEM as the RPM increased more than the Watts but this doesn't consider all three motors are under torque.

With gearing the revs can be turned into torque. For example, halve the revs to double the torque. Assuming there is no change to the Watts, then :

SC5 needs to be geared by 54%, SC6 by 49% and SC7 by 18%

Applying those percentages to the motors will bring the revs down and bring the torque up to 100% :

SC5~8525rpm
SC6~5701rpm
SC7~5758rpm

OEM~100%A~100%rpm~100%W~100%kg
SC5~318%A~222%rpm~333%W~100%kg
SC6~188%A~148%rpm~196%W~100%kg
SC7~140%A~150%rpm~148%W~100%kg

%RPM/%W :

SC5~0.67
SC6~0.76
SC7~1.01

On a strictly theoretical analysis of the figures, SC7 can be geared to compensate for the shortfall in torque and the remaining RPM advantage is not gained by excessive power draw.

Happy Hunting

mark