My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Ufopolitics]

Imperial Kit...

Ufopolitics,

Great to hear from you!

Both UFO Kits from Imperial arrived!
https://imageshack.com/i/id4wSDKpj



They could use some help in the packaging department.

Parts just thrown in one of the boxes with little packaging.

Lots of scuff marks/cosmetic damage.

One of the armatures has a little damage.

UFO, will this cause a problem with what we are getting ready to do?
https://imageshack.com/i/f0ogdZYcj



Looking forward to the surprise as well as new winding instructions!

Thanks for all you do,

IndianaBoys

Hello IB!

Great to see your Kit arrived!, you are right, their packaging dept. needs some BIG HELP!

My rotor also came with a small chipped epoxy luckily just in one pole...yes it needs to be re-coated with epoxy covering that section, or you could use the heavy duty paper used for this purposes as rotors insulator and sticking it with some heavy glue, just to hold it during winding.

They just "throw" the commutators loose inside the casing!...no wrapping, or bubble wrap!!...so I got some minor dents on elements that could be sanded/filed down.

No Fragile signs on box...so UPS just, literally just dropped the heavy box at my door making a noise like someone was breaking in at my front steel fence...

Call Dyann friend, and tell her about that poor wrapping!...I did also...so future packaging do not have this issues.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Sorry about that Friend!!

IndianaBoys

Hello, from your neighbor, MichiganBoy. That rotor should be OK once it is cleaned up and re-coated. I thought that we were past the bad shipping from Imperial. Maybe we are getting there seconds. All is well that ends well. I am still waiting for my orders but now even when they come, will have to wait eight week to wind the new rotors. I was crossing a bridge Thursday morning with a wood trailer and it slipped off the side of the bridge with the two left wheels. Got some help with pulling it back on but while doing that, the trailer wheel hit a rock and turned 90 degrees, pushing me into a large rock and breaking my left hand and thumb. Cant wind coils that way as well as do buttons on my shirt. But as I said earlier, all is well that ends well. We will all get there in our time. Good luck with your winding and have fun.
Dana

Oh Dana!!...Got to be MORE careful Friend!!

You are breaking bones all over Man!....and I still do not have ready those Electrodynamic Servo Robotic Exo Skeleton Joints!!...

Sorry about your accident friend!...but think it could have been much worst!

Glad you are recuperating fast.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

Two rotors are one

As I said, your first wind has a rough learning curve but when you add in a double rotor, MAY THE GODS HELP YOU.

Thanks Dana. Fortune favours the brave. My two rotors are now one. Tomorrow I hope to start doing a rough wind.

As you may have seen on UFO's site, I have built a 4 rotor length Goldmine.

I looked at that video and impressive it is too. I’ll maybe get there one day BUT simple is the way for the time being.

Thanks UFO for the excellent advice on coil options. Coincidentally my first sketch of how this was going to go as outlined in my first post

I'm going to try a 3 coil/group 3 pole/coil 4 winds/coil and see if this works.

is your option 4 which gives me confidence to go for it. Unfortunately the brushes on this motor are centred on the magnets and would need to be turned to achieve your design here. I will take a close look and see what I need to do to compensate. I’m going to use the salvaged wire from the two motors for a rough first wind and see how the motor performs. It looks like 0.5mm wire.

The casing is taped with insulation tape at present to check fit and alignment for the rotor. It is around 150mm long and feels nice and heavy in the hand. I hope it turns out to be a strong motor.

Thank you both for the help.

mark

[HuntingRoss]

Thought

I don't think I have to do much adjustment to the design.

If I'm understanding the subject...I just need to make sure that as comm G1 is coming onto the brush that G1 coil 1 bisector is past the centre of the magnet.

Updates to follow

mark

[Ufopolitics]

Thanks UFO for the excellent advice on coil options. ... Unfortunately the brushes on this motor are centered on the magnets and would need to be turned to achieve your design here. I will take a close look and see what I need to do to compensate.

Thank you both for the help.

mark

Hello Mark,

The positioning of the Brushes related to Stators is just a "Relative" issue...all you have to do is "re-consider" the start of G1 Commutator Element, that is all.

I just "re used" the same Diagram and rotated the Commutators and Brushes...it will work exactly the same way:

[IMG][/IMG]

Always try to find/search for the pattern that would lead the way Mark...in this case, notice that the Coil Number One (1) FIRST POLE should match to the exact center of the corresponding commutator element...and this applies to ALL Groups from there on.

This will help you a lot when winding it for real on your work bench....Paint/High Light in Red the top Positive Commutator on that particular G1 Element as your starting guide.

Looking forward to see your progress!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Perfectly Well!

I don't think I have to do much adjustment to the design.

If I'm understanding the subject...I just need to make sure that as comm G1 is coming onto the brush that G1 coil 1 bisector is past the centre of the magnet.

Updates to follow

mark

Hello Mark,


YES!!...You've got it perfectly well!!
That is the MAIN part for Machine to work perfectly timed!

Your Motor is gonna run very smooth and strong.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

It's Alive

WHAT a great day.

I wound my very first motor and it worked first time…I mean. What could go wrong ?

So a couple of photos –

First one is the jig to keep the alignment through the two shafts.

IMG_2732.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

The second one is insulation tape markers on the rotor because the permanent marker wasn’t that permanent. Obviously explains why there was no name on the tin. I did 3 coils per group and 4 winds per coil…and you can see there is plenty of room for more wire. I used the salvaged wire which is approx 0.5mm and just over 4m long. So as it turned out there was just enough for the 12 winds per group. Phew.

IMG_2740.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

The third one is a quick and dirty video but shows the thing kick off first time which is such a thrill…this is MY Frankenstein…It’s alive !! As a bench mark, I pinched the original motor to a complete stop between my thumb and forefinger with no effort. This one took a lot more persuasion but it was possible to stall it this way. The torque needs to be measured but it is higher. I did the current test off screen but it read 1.9 amps but the rpm was way down, so I think something wasn’t correct. The original motor pulled 0.22A @ 5.22V @ 750rpm.

MOV008-Copy.mp4 Video by huntingross | Photobucket

The fourth one is after I jumped the PSU to 12V. The rpm was climbing progressively and went phut at 5600rpm. As you might be able to make out, one of the wires came off the top comm. Causing that coil to unravel in the motor and that was that.

IMG_2742.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

I had to solder the connections because I couldn’t get the tabs open and I guess I hadn’t taken all the enamel off that wire…boo.

I’m going to get a drum of similar wire with the solder through coating and increase the number of turns,

That’s it for now until I get supplies.

Thank you everyone and special thanks to UFO.

[DadHav]

WHAT a great day.

I wound my very first motor and it worked first time…I mean. What could go wrong ?

So a couple of photos –

First one is the jig to keep the alignment through the two shafts.

IMG_2732.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

The second one is insulation tape markers on the rotor because the permanent marker wasn’t that permanent. Obviously explains why there was no name on the tin. I did 3 coils per group and 4 winds per coil…and you can see there is plenty of room for more wire. I used the salvaged wire which is approx 0.5mm and just over 4m long. So as it turned out there was just enough for the 12 winds per group. Phew.

IMG_2740.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

The third one is a quick and dirty video but shows the thing kick off first time which is such a thrill…this is MY Frankenstein…It’s alive !! As a bench mark, I pinched the original motor to a complete stop between my thumb and forefinger with no effort. This one took a lot more persuasion but it was possible to stall it this way. The torque needs to be measured but it is higher. I did the current test off screen but it read 1.9 amps but the rpm was way down, so I think something wasn’t correct. The original motor pulled 0.22A @ 5.22V @ 750rpm.

MOV008-Copy.mp4 Video by huntingross | Photobucket

The fourth one is after I jumped the PSU to 12V. The rpm was climbing progressively and went phut at 5600rpm. As you might be able to make out, one of the wires came off the top comm. Causing that coil to unravel in the motor and that was that.

IMG_2742.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

I had to solder the connections because I couldn’t get the tabs open and I guess I hadn’t taken all the enamel off that wire…boo.

I’m going to get a drum of similar wire with the solder through coating and increase the number of turns,

That’s it for now until I get supplies.

Thank you everyone and special thanks to UFO.

Guys just a quick question, You may know I'm more familiar with brushless motors than I am with brushes and commutators. I always thought you couldn't depend on soldered wires on the commutator pieces because there could be enough heat to melt the solder. Is this not the case?
John

[HuntingRoss]

Also

What I forgot to mention is the amount of wire used was from one motor only...AND...if the wire hadn't detached I would have done a temperature reading. However the increase (if any) was small.

Happy Hunting

mark

[HuntingRoss]

While I was drafting

Guys just a quick question, You may know I'm more familiar with brushless motors than I am with brushes and commutators. I always thought you couldn't depend on soldered wires on the commutator pieces because there could be enough heat to melt the solder. Is this not the case?
John

John...I was just writing my last post coincidentally touching on the temperature thing....

If that scenario is possible it certainly wasn't a cause of failure in this case....BUT...I sure would like to know how to get those troublesome tabs open, it would have saved me a lot of time today.

mark

[prochiro]

John
The NN wind seemingly does not produce any appreciable heat that would unsolder a wire that was well soldered. I don't know why but no spark's and cool running to the end. It probably was just a bad connection and with 5600rpm at 12v that is hauling. Can we all guess what 24v might be (?) or even if mike adds the full amount of wire in his coils.
Mike
Great work and keep notes as you go. Another excited UFO believer, YES?
Now Mike, finish what your doing and just think what an imperial will do. Take the output, measure it and think how to get it back in a battery. You are using a power supply so you cant put it there. Later, when using a battery, See UFO's diagrams to feed the battery. You can also do what RomeroUK did and send it into a cap, convert to DC, then into a DC/DC converter and use it for what you want. Further study will help you understand how to get higher voltage and amps from what you produce.
Dana
Dana

[prochiro]

Mark
The best way to get those tabs open is to take a small set of pliers and grasp the top of the tab on the sides and flip the end up. Then a small screwdriver will lift it easily.
Dana

[Midaztouch]

I guess people are starting to smell & see the smoke around the NN!
Yes, there is a fire!


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[Ufopolitics]

WHAT a great day.

I wound my very first motor and it worked first time…I mean. What could go wrong ?

So a couple of photos –

First one is the jig to keep the alignment through the two shafts.

IMG_2732.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

The second one is insulation tape markers on the rotor because the permanent marker wasn’t that permanent. Obviously explains why there was no name on the tin. I did 3 coils per group and 4 winds per coil…and you can see there is plenty of room for more wire. I used the salvaged wire which is approx 0.5mm and just over 4m long. So as it turned out there was just enough for the 12 winds per group. Phew.

IMG_2740.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

The third one is a quick and dirty video but shows the thing kick off first time which is such a thrill…this is MY Frankenstein…It’s alive !! As a bench mark, I pinched the original motor to a complete stop between my thumb and forefinger with no effort. This one took a lot more persuasion but it was possible to stall it this way. The torque needs to be measured but it is higher. I did the current test off screen but it read 1.9 amps but the rpm was way down, so I think something wasn’t correct. The original motor pulled 0.22A @ 5.22V @ 750rpm.

MOV008-Copy.mp4 Video by huntingross | Photobucket

The fourth one is after I jumped the PSU to 12V. The rpm was climbing progressively and went phut at 5600rpm. As you might be able to make out, one of the wires came off the top comm. Causing that coil to unravel in the motor and that was that.

IMG_2742.jpg Photo by huntingross | Photobucket

I had to solder the connections because I couldn’t get the tabs open and I guess I hadn’t taken all the enamel off that wire…boo.

I’m going to get a drum of similar wire with the solder through coating and increase the number of turns,

That’s it for now until I get supplies.

Thank you everyone and special thanks to UFO.

Great Mark!

So, do you believe in UFO's now?...

Excellent and very fast work, and I know it was done with the scrap wire from old motor...and not even a secured casing...but it worked, and that's what matters.

When the commutator elements tabs are fused with an Electric Fusor it is kind of hard to get them open...but as Dana said, by slightly twisting tab, side ways (towards both, right and left neighboring elements) with some needle nose pliers will crack the fusing, then some fine and sharp blade or small flat screw drive will open them.

I particularly feel more secure by attaching elements to wires mechanically and not using solder...although the NN does not arc/spark and no heat, so it can afford to be soldered. However guys, we must realize in longer times of operation, just the mechanical friction between brushes/commutator copper, will do raise temperature. On the other hand, adding too much heat to each element individually could weaken the mica that holds them together.

I also noticed you did not used wire retaining hedges at slots, between two poles...and this motors blow the original speed they were designed for...I believe that is what happened in your case...wire come out through slots, get tangled between stators and rotor metal and pull its way from element or just brake apart. I did it with my first Imperial run.

With my small 5 Pole Radio Shack Motor I have reached over 40,000 RPM's with the NN winding...and that motor was conceived to go top 20,000... I had to add hedges on slots...otherwise, wires would have come out of rotor.

For next winding, you could use a bit finer wire and add as many turns as you could fit there per each coil in the Group.

Also could add several strands of even finer wire and that would strengthen your rotor magnetic fields without high amp draw.

Please check on each group as you attach them at both commutator elements (upper-lower) with a continuity meter for ground short with the rotor metal between any of the two elements. They must be isolated from ground.

I really enjoy seeing members like you!...that just get the hints, no matter what, goes for it... and get it DONE, and on top of that it runs excellent...it means a lot, it means you clearly understand the main principle and set up of this asymmetrical methodology.

I am pretty sure your next models would be even better and so on...


Thanks a lot for sharing your results!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[DadHav]

John...I was just writing my last post coincidentally touching on the temperature thing....

If that scenario is possible it certainly wasn't a cause of failure in this case....BUT...I sure would like to know how to get those troublesome tabs open, it would have saved me a lot of time today.

mark

Hi Dana, Mark, don't take me wrong, I wan't suggesting the solder might be the reason wires came loose. I was just saying in general for all brushed motors it might not be a good idea to depend on solder as a long term solution. I've soldered worn out crimps on the commutator myself and felt safe because my application was lower speed and lighter duty. If the NN runs cooler that's a good thing especially if the effect is constant while drawing the higher current. I have some dental tools and one of them is like a little scoop. I sharpen the end almost like an exacto blade and I can dig right under the little tabs and pry them right up but on some bigger motors you have to get them with pliers.
Take care
John