My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Glen

Greetings:

Well, I took a chance and purchased two P66LR006 Imperial motors. (Kogs, JS, I know you warned me, but I just couldn't resist!)

They came in today and are huge! 50 pounds each.

I took one apart. They are four brush and the rotor has 33 segments. (I was hoping for 36 or an even number.) (Yes Kogs/JS, you warned me....)

It looks like I will have to replace the shafts....but will make that judgement after removing the fan and getting a measurement. Also, will probably use two rear end plates/brush mounts on each motor. (Mounting the brush holder to the front motor cap doesn't look promising.)

An engineer with Imperial was kind enough to send me a sketched diagram and parts list, so there should be no confusion about which parts to order.

Figure to be cleaning armatures this weekend.....

pics below,

glen

Hello Glen,

Well...I did not forget about your 33 Poles Imperial...


[IMG][/IMG]


What I have found out...is that there is a "Repetitive" Specific Sequencing-or may I call it an arrangement- for all Odd Number of Poles...or not divisible by Four.


So far this is the second Model that I do on this type of Machines.

The First one was a 21 Poles:

[IMG][/IMG]


And...I do not want to create confusion here...but if you notice...the way to design/lay out opposed Pairs is exactly the same way in 21 as it is on your 33 poles. And I mean the way they "intersect" in asymmetry on one side with two poles while at opposite end they cross with one pole.

In your Imperial P1 and P18 are the Motoring Pairs being fired, note above how they cross over two poles...while in the opposite/lower end they cross with only one pole...right?

So now take a look at the P21 Diagram...and follow P2 and P12 (Motoring Coils)...they cross above in two poles...and at bottom/opposite end with just one pole...(just like yours)

I just wanted to bring this interesting common attribute...that could lead us to solve a method to wind Asymmetrically, Odd Number of Poles Machines...

The Main Issue when designing a Motor...is to consider the same number of Poles per Coils (in order to keep same magnetic fields 3D Volume)...so, in your case you will be winding/grabbing Nine(9) Poles Coils...or 18 in the Pair....therefore your Coil Magnetic Bisector (Coil Center) would be the Fifth (5th) Pole...that would be your "needle" to guide you when setting the right timing.

You just have to be careful when setting timing, because the opposed Pairs Bisectors are NOT set straight at 180º apart, like in a typical "even"number of poles occur...while your Stators Bisectors are set at 180º apart.

Any questions let me know.


Warm Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

G'day UFO
I do not know how the comm's were set as when I pulled the motors apart it included the comm's and so now I place them wherever I like I will peer into the diagram further.
Does that mean that I can run the motor either way
Thanks for your quick reply
I am now preparing to finish all my motors ASAP and show the results

Thanks a million

Kogs trying hard

Kogs...


I was referring to Brushes positioning related to Stators (Magnets)...NOT Commutators...

Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Rotated Stators

UFO

This is what I have


Midaz

Yes Midaz, that is exactly what I was referring to...

This the way mine is:

[IMG][/IMG]

The Red marker lines are South Poles...Whites are North...

You have same problem as Hitby13kw...or:

[IMG][/IMG]

We are using the Motor Base as reference guide.

Your simplest Solution is to "swap/rotate" also by 90º your Input Gates...meaning to fire linearly/straight from battery P8 and P22 ...so now P8 is your P1, and P15 is now your P22...

Please, understand that you will be energizing P8 as You will do to P1, meaning same polarity as you will feed P1...not reversed like P8 have it...so change cables colors also not to get confused...

Also use this Sequencing when selecting the Quad pulser Channels...

And you will be fine...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Midaztouch]

UFO

Gotcha

Don't worry, I have 2 motors. The second one is ok!

Keep it Clean and Green

[GlenWV]

33 pole rotor

Hello Glen,

Well...I did not forget about your 33 Poles Imperial...


[IMG][/IMG]


What I have found out...is that there is a "Repetitive" Specific Sequencing-or may I call it an arrangement- for all Odd Number of Poles...or not divisible by Four.


So far this is the second Model that I do on this type of Machines.

The First one was a 21 Poles:

[IMG][/IMG]


And...I do not want to create confusion here...but if you notice...the way to design/lay out opposed Pairs is exactly the same way in 21 as it is on your 33 poles. And I mean the way they "intersect" in asymmetry on one side with two poles while at opposite end they cross with one pole.

In your Imperial P1 and P18 are the Motoring Pairs being fired, note above how they cross over two poles...while in the opposite/lower end they cross with only one pole...right?

So now take a look at the P21 Diagram...and follow P2 and P12 (Motoring Coils)...they cross above in two poles...and at bottom/opposite end with just one pole...(just like yours)

I just wanted to bring this interesting common attribute...that could lead us to solve a method to wind Asymmetrically, Odd Number of Poles Machines...

The Main Issue when designing a Motor...is to consider the same number of Poles per Coils (in order to keep same magnetic fields 3D Volume)...so, in your case you will be winding/grabbing Nine(9) Poles Coils...or 18 in the Pair....therefore your Coil Magnetic Bisector (Coil Center) would be the Fifth (5th) Pole...that would be your "needle" to guide you when setting the right timing.

You just have to be careful when setting timing, because the opposed Pairs Bisectors are NOT set straight at 180º apart, like in a typical "even"number of poles occur...while your Stators Bisectors are set at 180º apart.

Any questions let me know.


Warm Regards


Ufopolitics

Greetings Mr. UFOPolitics:

Thank you very much for taking the time to figure out how to wind this motor. I appreciate it.

This is going to be fun!!

The folks that I purchased the P66 frame motors from also had some P56 frame motors, so I have two of those on the way. The idea is to use one as a parts donor and wind one as a generator. Or, make another PM and strip the generator head of a gasoline unit.

There are lots of possibilities here.

Thank you again, sir.

glen

[IndianaBoys]

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[machinealive]

Hey Folks

UFO, I only put 3 rings on the shaft. 2 on imperial end (top end), and one on the bottom. I never thought about the end of shaft. I could have put one more on. If I need to, I can always add one more, I can't believe I missed that.

UFO, I never balanced my imperial. I could see why Midas, or anyone building a vehicle, would want a balanced motor. Did you balance your motors, UFO? I thought you said not to do that once.

Lastly, I thought of another idea, for stators. My plates are 12X12". We could cut new stators, inner-outer, from the new plates. I could drill onto old stators. Or cut a 12X 12 square out and slide new stators in. if the drum could be wound on steel laminations, we would have that too. Maybe I should get aluminum plates and cut stators and drum out of aluninum? What are your thoughts UFO.

Hey Cornboy, sorry to hear about your accident. Too much grape juice?

[Midaztouch]

Today I will begin rewinding like the Japanese do

@all

Like UFO, the Japanese prefer to sand rotors to bare metal.

We prepped the motor. The standard is an electrical clear film and Nomex electrical paper stacked on top. They said its a double safety for long life and wire protection. Between each wire coil Nomex paper is placed. Also, Nomex is places between the north and south coil bisection.

After the coil winding is finished. A semi-clear electrical fiberglass strip will slide between the poles over the wires to hold the wire in place for high Rpms. The fiberglass strips will be held in place with epoxy.

Then the wires will be coated with a deep varnish coating and baked at 180c. 24 hours of cooling. During cooling, continuity tests are done.

Lastly, balancing..

Pic of motor prepped and ready for winding with a strip of electrical fiberglass below.

Time to go to the shop now. 9am sharp!

Enjoy

Midaz

Ps. The supervisor made the jig for me. He was super cool and nice yesterday! Dana, you were right

[Cornboy 555]

Hey Cornboy, sorry to hear about your accident. Too much grape juice?

Naaa, just had my mind on other things, Like building Motors ETC.

Cornboy.

[machinealive]

Hey Cornboy

I wonder how many other farmers, guys working in the woods, are thinking about magnetic fields, the aether, coils. Most of the folks I know, think I'm insane

Isn't that just crazy.

[JohnStone]

I recommend to anybody checking his new wond motor with one single winding first. Unfortunately UFO motors have more degrees of freedom in jamming things together and thus they might run in low level mode.
I had similar problmes with my first motor and got things straight by prcedure below.

Usually we wind motors conforming to UFOs drawing. We wind first coil being placed well aligned with a N pole.

• Check first if brushes in drawing are positioned like at your motor
• Get this coil and solder wires to commutator segments.
• Energize coil as proposed by drawing and check for pole direction.
• Check stator for pole direction
• Insert armature into motor.
• Rotate armature to be positioned pole exactly like in drawing to a N magnet.
• Energize coil again like shown in drawing.
• Check for correct movement.

For a pole checker I stick a small magnet N/S line 90° to tooth pick. Holding the toothpick between two fingers the magnet will rotate freely indicating pole at stator or pole at rotor.
JS

[GChilders]

poles in drawings

@ufoPolitics
hi ufo. I have always had a little trouble telling which way the poles are from the drawings. I know that the red is the south and the blue is the north, but are you saying that the concave side of the magnet is north or the convex side is north, and vice versa on the south? I originally thought that the poles were viewed as north and south from the convex or outside of the motors, but I believe the opposite is true after doing several builds. Just something to keep in mind. Someone did a drawing it may have been dadhav with the magnets split in the center and showing red on the outside of the magnet and blue on the inside of the magnet.

Cheers

Garry

[Cornboy 555]

Hey Cornboy

I wonder how many other farmers, guys working in the woods, are thinking about magnetic fields, the aether, coils. Most of the folks I know, think I'm insane

Isn't that just crazy.

Yeah Machine, the Majority of normal people, are a very strange mob indeed!!.

Cornboy.

[Ufopolitics]

Magnet Convention...

@ufoPolitics
hi ufo. I have always had a little trouble telling which way the poles are from the drawings. I know that the red is the south and the blue is the north, but are you saying that the concave side of the magnet is north or the convex side is north, and vice versa on the south? I originally thought that the poles were viewed as north and south from the convex or outside of the motors, but I believe the opposite is true after doing several builds. Just something to keep in mind. Someone did a drawing it may have been dadhav with the magnets split in the center and showing red on the outside of the magnet and blue on the inside of the magnet.

Cheers

Garry

Hello Garry,

[IMG][/IMG]

The Magnetic Convention on Stators Polarity refers to the Poles Interacting with Rotor.

In general terms We could say that "The Interacting Poles" in either rotor or stators are the ones indicated in Motor-Generator Diagrams.

If You note in Tesla's Patent above, He refers in left Column to Stators, and in Right Column He refers to Rotor Magnetic Polarity positioning during the whole 360º rotation (not shown here, since I Trimmed-Cropped Image)

This Convention goes back as the Electric Motor was invented...
If We limit by saying "The Concave Side"...then for Motors where the Stators are in the Center, and Rotor is in the outer...this terminology tends to confusion.

Now that I have been displaying Dual Asymmetric Machines...then We need to adopt the Real way the Magnets project their fields on both main poles, N and S.


Hope You understood this Convention now...please let me know, thanks


Warm Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Hey...

Hey Folks

UFO, I only put 3 rings on the shaft. 2 on imperial end (top end), and one on the bottom. I never thought about the end of shaft. I could have put one more on. If I need to, I can always add one more, I can't believe I missed that.

Ok Machine, so related to Continuous Slip Rings/Brushes...How many do you have total?

UFO, I never balanced my imperial. I could see why Midas, or anyone building a vehicle, would want a balanced motor. Did you balance your motors, UFO? I thought you said not to do that once.

You could send your rotor to be balanced...is up to you guys...mine is not balanced...and yes I wrote before that asymmetric winding is kind of harder to balance due to its Spiral Design...Symmetrical Coils are easier to do the job since wires are distributed evenly through the whole armature.

For example, in your Imperial, P1 is a small and compacted coil all the way closer to the center of rotor shaft, next quadrant coil is P8, laying in an outer layer from P1...then, sitting at 180º is P15 that would be set at the middle-outer of spiral...while P28 is all the way in the external side...

I particularly like the "Unbalanced Hammering Effect" from small to big weights on rotor.

I hope that when balancing Midaz Imperial...they succeed without taking big chunks out of rotor steel...or adding too much weights on the lighter sides...

I believe that a Torque test should be done "Pre Balanced" and another test "Post Balanced"...then watch if there are differences.

Lastly, I thought of another idea, for stators. My plates are 12X12". We could cut new stators, inner-outer, from the new plates. I could drill onto old stators. Or cut a 12X 12 square out and slide new stators in. if the drum could be wound on steel laminations, we would have that too. Maybe I should get aluminum plates and cut stators and drum out of aluninum? What are your thoughts UFO.

You could cut all Inner and Outer Stators from scratch, that would be better...but NOT in Aluminum plates...Steel Laminations will create bigger-stronger HOT magnetic fields to excite faster/stronger the induced drum coils.

Drum Structure MUST be made out of a "NON MAGNETIC MATERIAL"...Aluminum is a "Paramagnetic" Material...meaning it WILL get magnetized whenever Induced generates a current flow...therefore a magnetic flux.


Warm regards


Ufopolitics

EDIT 1: Machine...just now, after I was going over and editing my post above to Garry on Tesla's Patent...I just got an idea on our Drum design...

Tesla uses the Toroidal Design a lot on His Induced Coils like in the Patent above where He "Fuses" Motor and Generator...

Then why don't we use a Toroidal Coil...wrapped around a very thin and plain Cylindrical Drum?

I You notice Tesla wounded in, Four Coils at Right Columns Diagram/Fig 1a,2a,3a...representing the Generator Induced Coils Toroidal Structure...leaving a space between wraps...space we could use for attachment/fastening to Upper/Lower rotating structures...then you DO could make it in Aluminum...since a Toroid would project its magnetic fields WITHIN and "INTERNALLY" the cylindrical structure...and NOT towards outer space to stators...

How come I did not think about this before?...Idk...and I have been saying over and over, about Tesla Toroidal Generators Induced Coils advantages...

The only thing at risk here is that copper would be exposed between Stators/Exciters steel laminations...and a very tiny misalignment could destroy winding...so, we could use a fiberglass hot temp paper and epoxy them very tight...in order to protect them on both sides, inner-outer.

Regards