My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[bistander]

However, it is not that easy to conceive a "negative or positive amperage" of just a "point" in a conductor...

Hi Ufo,

It is easy for me to conceive the direction of the current in a circuit or through a point in a conductor. This is assigned a mathematical sign (+ or -). Then current in the opposite direction assumes the opposite sign. This is pretty basic in the circuit analysis. Just as the polarity of a potential difference is assigned.

Do you also have difficulty in conceiving the direction of flow in a pipe? No need to answer that. I think we're straying off topic.

bi

[Ufopolitics]

I'll wait for you to tell me.

I will tell you one simple reality...

In this "phenomena" about the coils voltage reversals and currents transitions it has always being disregarded the true magnetic field behavior. It just has being said "field collapses"...or "field is generated"...however, no one has responded "How does field -exactly- do both "operations"?"

As an example...In another Thread You could not conceive nor accept that magnetic field in a Coil is generated exactly from the center of that coil toward both extremes to form the known "poles"...no matter the size, length, width or any other spec's...Then much less I will expect you to accept it also collapses right towards that same exact point where it was generated...the gravitational center.

If this fact is not understood properly, not even accepted "as a possibility"...even to try to open your mind, just a bit...then any "electrical consequence" due to generation or collapse from any coil's magnetic field...would be based from parameter's reading with whatever we have available "on hand" -which is absolutely not enough instrumentation- plus some mathematical equations trying to reconcile the obtained results...but very far from reality.

This is the very truth about "our situation" so far...Bistander.


Honestly.


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

reversal Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Hi Ufo,

Reversal is the act of changing... And constant means non-changing or unchanging. So reversal is definitely not constant. Maybe not opposite, but something reversing is not constant.

You seem to want to imply an unchanging magnitude would qualify as constant when that quantity also has a direction or sign as in a vector. Would +20ºC changing to -20ºC be a constant temperature? Would a northbound 60mph changing to westbound 60mph be a constant velocity? I don't think so. And +30Amps changing to -30Amps is not a constant current.

Regards,

bi

See Bistander, I want to say I do understand your point of view...and up to a point your examples on temperature and MPH, makes sense to a first glance...

Now let's think of Vectors of Force...same Force Value, but in different directions ...isn't it the same force no matter what direction vectors take? ...isn't it a constant force in different directions? (and not necessarily meaning "opposite" as in a 180º line, since I know this way both vectors will cancel to zero)...

In electricity you and I know, as many here... that we could reverse any parameter like V&I at exactly Zero Time.
However, we can not do that with temperature changes like in your example.

Now, related to speed...or your example of 60 MPH...let me ask you:
Isn't that Vehicle traveling at the same speed/time as a constant...no matter what direction is following?

Let me add this example:

You are traveling in a 45 MPH Zone at your 60 MPH...You travel North bound then West bound...while a Trooper is following you and turns lights up in his roof...He stops you...and what happens?

Do you think the Trooper cares what direction you were traveling?......OR the fact you were doing it Over the speed limit at a CONSTANT Violation of 15 extra MPH?

I see the problem you have to understand my point is that you are looking at the "range" or "interval" between a Plus and a Minus...but not at the maintained value to admit it is a constant value.

Let me remind you that amperage, current or Intensity (I) in Electricity means Electron Population at a (one(1)) point of conductor over time and not like Voltage or Potential which is measured in specific conductor length between two (2) points.

Based on the above paragraph is easy to understand a Voltage reversal between two points...or... two terminals of a Coil.

However, it is not that easy to conceive a "negative or positive amperage" of just a "point" in a conductor...

Anyways, resuming here about my answer to Sampojo...and all this discussion between you and me here...let me say that the main point which -I believe- it answers Sam question...is not about current "trying" to remain constant, but about voltage reversal in that coil example compared to asymmetric motors.

It is a very old question, which always leaves some doubts...:

If an Inductor terminals reverses Voltage when it is disconnected...does it changes magnetic polarities?

And We all know that if we reverse the voltage input of any coil...we will be reversing its magnetic polarities as well...right?

Could it be demonstrated it does or it doesn't in a way that everyone (skeptics and free energy minds) be satisfied?

So far -that I know off- what really happens has not been able to be demonstrated...

Maybe someone will...very soon...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Trick question?

Let's say a Constant I = 1 Amp and a swapping Voltage from plus to minus Signal (in a Square Wave like shown below) is fed to a Coil:

[IMG][/IMG]

That Coil is receiving a V Reversal over time, while Current Value is constant...this means this Coil is swapping Magnetic Fields Polarities over time as well.

Now, how do you think Current behaves here during Up-Down V Cycles?

And by the way...I am making that video related to the CRT Imaging Magnetic Fields...so, that is why I have been away from posting...but am almost done, so get ready...


Ufopolitics

I'll wait for you to tell me.

[sampojo]

I dug out my copy of "Basic Electricity" Navy Personnel Training Manual

brought it to my nuke boat electrician buddy and had him walk thru things.....

From Chapter 10 on Inductance:

"If a battery is connected across a pure inductance, the current builds up to its final value ... When the battery is disconnected, the lines of force collapse, again cutting the turns of the inductor and building up an emf that tends to prolong the current flow."

After all current and voltage (CEMF) in a coil is generated by CHANGING magnetic fields. The book has some great descriptions of this. CEMF is generated in any coil as current changes. Something like that anyway...

So just envision the operation of the brushes connecting and disconnecting the battery from the coils. So the coil turns into a source instead of a sink when the battery is disconnected and must be trying to keep the current going, as my nuke boat buddy tells me, by collapsing the field. It takes 5 time constants, L/R. So the field can be seen to be maximized and stable (Constant?) and then collapses (Changing) feeding the lines EMF which drives the current. No field reversal just a field transitioning from Constant to Changing-(Collapsing).

Thats a nice link Inductive Kickback.

[bistander]

Changes

Now, related to "Reversal" versus "Constant" meanings...

Reversal is not the opposite of constant, ...

what is reversal: the act of changing or making something change to its opposite

reversal Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Hi Ufo,

Reversal is the act of changing... And constant means non-changing or unchanging. So reversal is definitely not constant. Maybe not opposite, but something reversing is not constant.

You seem to want to imply an unchanging magnitude would qualify as constant when that quantity also has a direction or sign as in a vector. Would +20ºC changing to -20ºC be a constant temperature? Would a northbound 60mph changing to westbound 60mph be a constant velocity? I don't think so. And +30Amps changing to -30Amps is not a constant current.

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

You are mistaken about the above statement. I have never seen a text book, legitimate reference or lecturer claim current in a coil reverses when it is disconnected. I have also never seen it happen in real life or the lab.

The statement of yours is a contradiction in and of itself. Attempting to keep constant would not indicate reversal. Reversal means opposite and therefore far from constant.

reversal Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Changing is opposite from keeping constant. Therefore your statement is a contradiction.

bi

Thanks Bistander,

I knew my answer will trigger some "BEMF"...

Ok, what I meant (related to Classic Explanation) you all know how it goes...right?
And, yes, I meant "Current TRIES to keep being CONSTANT, while Voltage REVERSES".

Now, IF Coil has been completely disconnected it means no further supply of either voltage nor current would be available. So, this means that no matter how much current "attempts" or "tries" to keep a Constant Value, it could not be possible to maintain this constant through time...Then it means current will have absolutely no other recourse but to start falling down as originated magnetic field collapses.

Now, related to "Reversal" versus "Constant" meanings...

Reversal is not the opposite of constant, it does not say so in the link you've cited. That link only tries to explain what a reversal is.

For example: A Current VALUE could keep being CONSTANT (The Same Amp Value), while it COULD change directions, therefore, Current REVERSES and its value remains CONSTANT

Let's say a Constant I = 1 Amp and a swapping Voltage from plus to minus Signal (in a Square Wave like shown below) is fed to a Coil:

[IMG][/IMG]

That Coil is receiving a V Reversal over time, while Current Value is constant...this means this Coil is swapping Magnetic Fields Polarities over time as well.

Now, how do you think Current behaves here during Up-Down V Cycles?

And by the way...I am making that video related to the CRT Imaging Magnetic Fields...so, that is why I have been away from posting...but am almost done, so get ready...


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

reverses - not

Now, the Classic Explanation says:

When Coil is disconnected from source, the current tries to keep being "CONSTANT"...so it REVERSES its flow ....

Hi Ufo,

You are mistaken about the above statement. I have never seen a text book, legitimate reference or lecturer claim current in a coil reverses when it is disconnected. I have also never seen it happen in real life or the lab.

The statement of yours is a contradiction in and of itself. Attempting to keep constant would not indicate reversal. Reversal means opposite and therefore far from constant.

what is reversal: the act of changing or making something change to its opposite

reversal Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Changing is opposite from keeping constant. Therefore your statement is a contradiction.

bi

[SisMika]

Short memory?

Are you having memory problems UFO? Don't you remember just a couple of years ago Farmhand and citfta had this same discussion with you and proved you were wrong about the current changing direction? The voltage reverses because the coil becomes the source. The current continues in the same direction. Do I need to show you some scope shots that prove you are wrong?

sampojo, here is a link to a thread that has plenty of discussion and scope shots that show exactly what happens when the coil discharges:

Inductive Kickback

Your electronics friend is correct.

SisMika

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

Hope you check in and see this.

But of course my friend...I always "check in"...

I have a question on the transition phase between the charge or on cycle to the disconnected phase of a coil in these motors.

As a coil hits a powered brush set, the current and voltage flow into the coil to give it the power stroke. The coil is acting as a sink to the battery current.

When the coil rolls off the brush set, getting completely disconnected from the battery, this would trigger the BEMF reaction in the coil at this point, but since it is disconnected here, the battery never has to fight the BEMF as in a symmetric motor.

Yes, that is correct...so far.

I am trying to understand what mother nature is doing when the BEMF is triggered on a coil. I have a friend, an ex nuke sub electrician, who is trying to school me. He says the coil at this point tries to keep the current flowing in the SAME direction by now acting like a battery source by discharging the coil's fields until about 5 time constants later it is collapsed. In this operation, the fields are now REVERSED.

Your friend explanation is "quite correct"*...it is based in the "Classical Explanation" he has learned in school.

Now, the Classic Explanation says:

When Coil is disconnected from source, the current tries to keep being "CONSTANT"...so it REVERSES its flow "trying" to prevent for magnetic field to collapse (and here we could add that current is so smart...it has almost an "artificial intelligence......by not allowing field to collapse.)
But the main FACT here is that whenever Current DOES REVERSE, it brings as a Consequence that the Coil Terminals Voltage also REVERSES, so, where there was the Positive Coil Terminal, NOW is negative...and viceversa...the Negative before, NOW is Positive.

The above swapping of Voltages is a FACT, is REAL, and it is the main reason why the Boost/Buck as the SEPIC Inductor's Converters work...as it is thanks to this V Reversal that electrical flow through the Gate Diode to Output Caps takes place.

Another possible interpretation is the current and voltage polarity become is reversed to reverse the fields.

YES, exactly what I wrote before...Voltage reverses at the Coil Terminals, due to Current (I) trying to keep Constant to avoid Field Collapse.

Do you know what happens with all your testing, especially on the other "My Motors got me..." thread? Maybe I need to do your examples there...

TIA

Sam

Classic Explanation -as I described above- is concerned on V & I only...They do not care what happens to Magnetic Fields, except to write it is a "Collapsing Field". And I understand magnetic fields do absolutely nothing on the circuit board of any switching power supply...

Now, in my World...as in the Logic and common sense world...ANY ELECTRIFIED/MAGNETIZED Coil which terminals VOLTAGES are REVERSED...AUTOMATICALLY reverse their Magnetic Field Polarities for the period of "On Time" the V reversal stays "On".

Meaning, that if no further Input is re-applied to Coil...Coil then "dies" or collapse field with magnetic polarities reversed.

In Asymmetrical Machines (Motors) as you wrote above...after Coil is disconnected it reverses Voltage...and understood it also reverses magnetic polarity until that Coil hits the next sequential brush input, where it swaps back to new Input spec's.

It will do help somehow to review that Thread and the experiments done with a standing still coil...being turned on and then off.

Do also some research on the Boost/Buck Converters...check out the Inductors circuit/terminals to output via diode...it will help a lot, believe me.
SEPIC (single-ended primary-inductor converter) is kind of more complex...since it uses Dual Inductors to alternate between them generating a more consistent/robust output...so check this one after going through the simple ones.

Kind regards friend, and nice talking to you again!


Ufopolitics

[sampojo]

Question on coil operation and BEMF in asymmetric motor

Hi Ufo,

Hope you check in and see this. I have a question on the transition phase between the charge or on cycle to the disconnected phase of a coil in these motors.

As a coil hits a powered brush set, the current and voltage flow into the coil to give it the power stroke. The coil is acting as a sink to the battery current.

When the coil rolls off the brush set, getting completely disconnected from the battery, this would trigger the BEMF reaction in the coil at this point, but since it is disconnected here, the battery never has to fight the BEMF as in a symmetric motor.

I am trying to understand what mother nature is doing when the BEMF is triggered on a coil. I have a friend, an ex nuke sub electrician, who is trying to school me. He says the coil at this point tries to keep the current flowing in the SAME direction by now acting like a battery source by discharging the coil's fields until about 5 time constants later it is collapsed. In this operation, the fields are now REVERSED.

Another possible interpretation is the current and voltage polarity become is reversed to reverse the fields.

Do you know what happens with all your testing, especially on the other "My Motors got me..." thread? Maybe I need to do your examples there...

TIA

Sam

[wantomake]

Many thanks

Ufo,
Thanks for this thread and great heart that you have in giving us this revelation and all the hard work you put into it.

I enjoyed replicating the 3,5, 7 slotted and especially the large old car generator that was very educational and still waiting for more experimenting.

There is always more to a replication than just numbers,results, more out than in. It's about trying to improve the world around us by finding an alternative power. I enjoy this device and strange anomaly I saw up close building and testing.

Many thanks ole friend,
wantomake

[SisMika]

Jazzzyro,

Maybe you should watch this video and read the comments before you waste a lot of time and money on a fantasy motor.

https://youtu.be/zQ7G54PzyKM

[jazzzyro]

Great Motor Jazzzyro!

That is correct, I had to cut just a "ring" off from the "sacrificed" motor housing, once that I did all the correct measurements from armature clearance with second commutator already mounted.



It was welded with a wire feed MIG Welder, but before you go full welding, just tack it (spot weld) in like four spots evenly apart so you could check free spinning with just small shaft play and rectify any adjustments.



By pressing commutator very evenly, so try to find a socket that seats preferably on the closest , metal if available at the closest end near shaft.

Never press commutator at outer copper elements, nor at the outer mica (insulator)



I used shop air tools, but it could be done with just electric ones, like die grinders (carbide cutting disc) and angle grinders, to even metal/welds out...plus all the required fasteners drivers, vise grips, players, etc,etc . There is actually not much to cut and grind...and if you are good with hand tools, like hand saw and files it can be done as well...only thing is will take you longer to complete.

The procedure must follow first to get all mechanical work done before starting to wind it, like putting together first rotor and housing with magnets mounted to check for binding or some rubbing because off center etc...



My pleasure.



I would recommend Imperial P56...but unfortunately the UFO Kit that we put together a while is no longer available at the very low prices we negotiated. Now a third party "new negotiator" got in the middle and charging a stiff profit which I consider is too much.

A few pages back you will find the info, as I believe someone here was selling one of them.

Good luck and please share back your progress.


Thanks and regards


Ufopolitics

Thank you very much Ufo!

Some more questions:

1. how do you align the two commutators rings one with another? Do you use a specific tool?
2. do you remove magnets when soldering "the ring" of housing? I know that heat may damage the permanent magnets.

Please let me know if you finalize the discussions with the "new negotiator" regarding the Ufo motor kit. I am interested in buying a kit.

A BIG THANK YOU!

Regards,
Jazzzyro.

[Ufopolitics]

Hello again,
I am planning to use a motor similar to the Bosch 700W you used already. I noticed that you soldered a second part of the housing (probably adapted from a second motor jeopardized in order to adapt the principal one).

Great Motor Jazzzyro!

That is correct, I had to cut just a "ring" off from the "sacrificed" motor housing, once that I did all the correct measurements from armature clearance with second commutator already mounted.

What kind of soldering did you use? Simple flux? or a stainless steel solder? I guess that must be something strong enough to resist to the motor torque.

It was welded with a wire feed MIG Welder, but before you go full welding, just tack it (spot weld) in like four spots evenly apart so you could check free spinning with just small shaft play and rectify any adjustments.

How do you fix the second commutators ring? by pressing? by sticking with some glue?

By pressing commutator very evenly, so try to find a socket that seats preferably on the closest , metal if available at the closest end near shaft.

Never press commutator at outer copper elements, nor at the outer mica (insulator)

What tools do you use for these conversions? Probably a small video about the tools you use for these conversions would be helpful for many. For me, for sure!

I used shop air tools, but it could be done with just electric ones, like die grinders (carbide cutting disc) and angle grinders, to even metal/welds out...plus all the required fasteners drivers, vise grips, players, etc,etc . There is actually not much to cut and grind...and if you are good with hand tools, like hand saw and files it can be done as well...only thing is will take you longer to complete.

The procedure must follow first to get all mechanical work done before starting to wind it, like putting together first rotor and housing with magnets mounted to check for binding or some rubbing because off center etc...

Once again, a big thank you for all your efforts and investments! You are very inspiring for me and gives me a BIG TASTE to go ahead with replications from your work.

My pleasure.

I am planning to make a first conversion with a smaller motor (say 500-700W) and later to convert one to be used for an electric car. What symmetric power motor do you recommend to be converted to asymmetric, in order to move easily a medium car?

Thanks a lot!

Best regards!

J.

I would recommend Imperial P56...but unfortunately the UFO Kit that we put together a while is no longer available at the very low prices we negotiated. Now a third party "new negotiator" got in the middle and charging a stiff profit which I consider is too much.

A few pages back you will find the info, as I believe someone here was selling one of them.

Good luck and please share back your progress.


Thanks and regards


Ufopolitics