My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[bistander]

Right-hand rule

Is our text-book interpretation of the right hand rule correct? What could be wrong on my design then?

Hi Sam,

I haven't seen anything wrong in the video yet. I'll take a closer look on a larger screen. Have you verified your compass hasn't been remagnetized by testing it to point correctly towards geographical North? Also please tell coil resistance and turns. Is the coil isolated from the core (not grounded)?

I've used the textbook right-hand rule thousands of times and never been wrong. Just a few hours ago I put 45 Amps thru an 8 turn air core coil and it attracted the proper end of the compass pointer per the textbook right-hand rule. The books are correct.

Have you got another coil you can test with that compass?

Regards,

bi

[sampojo]

A video demonstration of the violation of the right-hand rule

Nice diagrams and discussion so far guys, but nothing conclusive. We should be able to communicate to each other a physical law of nature, however. Here I think I am showing Ufopolitics diagrams correct again with some fairly solid proof. I think Ufo's diagrams are more like a left hand rule.

Here is the diagram I have used to wind my Baldor with the right hand rule strictly applied.



This is a corrected figure now with bullet 1 properly stating that the winding direction + to - is CCW.

Out of my college physics text Haliday & Resnick, "Fundamental Physics" the rule is stated:

"Grasp the wire with the right hand, the thumb pointing in the direction of the current. The fingers will curl around the wire in the direction of B"

Where B is the magnetic field vector, + is North.

My video demonstrates that my motor is wound exactly in accordance with my diagram, and that putting the fingers in the direction of the current is the same as the thumb. And my video, dis-assembling the coil shows it throwing a South pole as opposed to a North pole. I goofed in the last statement of direction, I should have said COUNTER CLOCKWISE.


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUxOXe_sV8w[/VIDEO]


Looking at Ufopolitics diagram, just the North oriented half for a unipolar design, it is suspiciously oriented in opposition to the strict interpretation of the right-hand rule.



I thought it had a violation of the right-hand rule. I thought the fingers should go in the direction of the current, and and altered my diagram accordingly. At 30% mark, I tested its performance and found it to rotate CCW, when it was supposed to go CW.

Is our text-book interpretation of the right hand rule correct? What could be wrong on my design then?

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

Thank you for the detailed reply. So you admit you made up your own right-hand rule. It never occurred to you to use the conventional rule which has been used for decades and is easily found? You had a 50/50 chance to get it right, but didn't.

I have thought for a long time that you just make it up as you go. This comfirms it.

Regards,

bi

You are welcome Bistander,

The "conventional" Right Hand Rule brings along parameters (Vectors basically) which are not required in order just to find which pole is North and which is South based on your winding turns direction and current flow.

B Fields brings confusions, since it travels (as you wrote previously) on the external of magnet or electromagnet in one direction, to then travel the opposite direction inside magnet or iron core...

Force? We do not need force vectors in order to wind in just specific poles of an armature...

After all these are just "Reference Methods"...nothing more, as they do not give a rational answer nor explanation as to why it takes place "that way"...


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Rules? Who needs them

Bistander,

Look at pic below...I honestly can not put it any simpler than that:

[IMG][/IMG]

In above simple drawing where it applies to any coil on this Planet...it simply means that if you set your Right Hand that way, at the time to start winding any coil...your thumb would be pointing to the North Pole, period.

I meant "Positive wires climbing toward your fingers"

If You start winding by turning wire the other way, (like shown on pic below) in order that positive flowing wires would be "leaving" your fingers, then you will have a South Pole pointing by your thumb.

[IMG][/IMG]

So, basically the reference we use are the positive flow at wound wires and our fingers relations to find which pole we are winding at the face of the armatures...it works and many here used it and work out fine.

P.D: I know perfectly well the symbology related to using the cross and the dot...it actually comes from the "arrow" convention...an old method where the "feathers" of the arrow is reflected with "X" and the dot (.) as the front end sharp point from arrow...

I really and honestly did not mean to create absolutely no conflicts with any other reference methods of Right Hand Rule(s)...like I wrote before, this was created by me, on this specific thread, to guide members who were winding motors, an easy method to go by, to help them wind a North or South Pole guidance reference in their armatures.


That was it. And I only hope it clear your concerns and doubts.


Regards


Ufopolitics

Hi Ufo,

Thank you for the detailed reply. So you admit you made up your own right-hand rule. It never occurred to you to use the conventional rule which has been used for decades and is easily found? You had a 50/50 chance to get it right, but didn't.

I have thought for a long time that you just make it up as you go. This comfirms it.

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Bistander,

Look at pic below...I honestly can not put it any simpler than that:

[IMG][/IMG]

In above simple drawing where it applies to any coil on this Planet...it simply means that if you set your Right Hand that way, at the time to start winding any coil...your thumb would be pointing to the North Pole, period.

I meant "Positive wires climbing toward your fingers"

If You start winding by turning wire the other way, (like shown on pic below) in order that positive flowing wires would be "leaving" your fingers, then you will have a South Pole pointing by your thumb.

[IMG][/IMG]

So, basically the reference we use are the positive flow at wound wires and our fingers relations to find which pole we are winding at the face of the armatures...it works and many here used it and work out fine.

P.D: I know perfectly well the symbology related to using the cross and the dot...it actually comes from the "arrow" convention...an old method where the "feathers" of the arrow is reflected with "X" and the dot (.) as the front end sharp point from arrow...

I really and honestly did not mean to create absolutely no conflicts with any other reference methods of Right Hand Rule(s)...like I wrote before, this was created by me, on this specific thread, to guide members who were winding motors, an easy method to go by, to help them wind a North or South Pole guidance reference in their armatures.


That was it. And I only hope it clear your concerns and doubts.


Regards


Ufopolitics

@All,

This Positive Flow of currents directions from above two images, forms Two different Vortexes or Spirals in each of the different wound Coils...And it happens that according to all my tests... when facing a straight Horizontal line B&W CRT with a North or a South, I obtained exactly the same magnetic spinning direction as the current flow and hand rule shows:


Meaning if you turn that North Pole Coil (or magnet) against the screen of a CRT with just a horizontal line on screen, it will deflect towards the left, or CCW Rotation on screen.

[IMG][/IMG]

However, if you face a South Pole towards same CRT Screen-Line..the rasterized electron beam horizontal line would deflect towards the Right, meaning CW Rotation...:

[IMG][/IMG]

Finally, if you observe the whole thing...would realize both poles, North and South are only turning but in One Direction, and it is just our perception trying to distinguish one from the other...which thinks they are "opposite"...

[IMG][/IMG]

Remember, everything is relative, and depends upon the point of view observing it...


Regards and


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Can not think of a more Simple Drawing...

Ufo,

ps. What does "positive wires climbing up" mean?

Regards,

bi

Bistander,

Look at pic below...I honestly can not put it any simpler than that:

[IMG][/IMG]

In above simple drawing where it applies to any coil on this Planet...it simply means that if you set your Right Hand that way, at the time to start winding any coil...your thumb would be pointing to the North Pole, period.

I meant "Positive wires climbing toward your fingers"

If You start winding by turning wire the other way, (like shown on pic below) in order that positive flowing wires would be "leaving" your fingers, then you will have a South Pole pointing by your thumb.

[IMG][/IMG]

So, basically the reference we use are the positive flow at wound wires and our fingers relations to find which pole we are winding at the face of the armatures...it works and many here used it and work out fine.

P.D: I know perfectly well the symbology related to using the cross and the dot...it actually comes from the "arrow" convention...an old method where the "feathers" of the arrow is reflected with "X" and the dot (.) as the front end sharp point from arrow...

I really and honestly did not mean to create absolutely no conflicts with any other reference methods of Right Hand Rule(s)...like I wrote before, this was created by me, on this specific thread, to guide members who were winding motors, an easy method to go by, to help them wind a North or South Pole guidance reference in their armatures.


That was it. And I only hope it clear your concerns and doubts.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[marathonman]

Plane ignorance.

Bistander'
"And don't you think there is something familiar about marathonman (MM) and MadMack (MM)."

Absolutely stupid and Ridiculous. i live in Texas, was born and raised in California, was in the military and served my Country and have NEVER EVER used or assumed a false identity. so please leave me out of your psychotic screwed up fantasies of deranged conspiracies.

please keep your comments to your self.

SORRY FOR THE WONDERFUL THREAD INTERRUPTION.

MM

[bistander]

conflict

Then it is a clear example that the two images are in conflict...same book?

All I know that any coil you show me the positive wires climbing up towards your right hand fingers, your thumb will point the North pole face, period.

You go ahead and make that test, make a video and post it showing the opposite...simple.

Ufopolitics

Ufo,

The images are not from the same book and not in conflict with each other (as originals). You and your markings on those images are in conflict. It is common convention to use circles to represent conductors perpendicular to the plane of the paper (or screen) on which the drawing is made. If the current is pointed down (into the paper or screen) then an X is marked in that circle. If the current is pointed up or out of the paper or screen, then a dot is placed in the circle. The image labeled figure 4.17 is defined as a generator therefore in the armature current flows from negative to positive (like inside of a battery during discharge). The other image is defined as an electric machine and the direction of the armature currents are defined by the convention of circles with dots and crosses. Note on that diagram, rotation is specified for both motor and generator (being opposite each other).

Regards,

bi

ps. What does "positive wires climbing up" mean?

[Ufopolitics]

Ufo,

In this image the currents in the armature conductors which you have marked with a red + are pointed out of the screen.



In this image, the currents in the armature conductors which you marked with red + are pointed into the screen.



So which is it? Fingers pointed with the current or fingers pointed against the current? Or any which way Ufo feels like doing today?

Regards,

bi

Then it is a clear example that the two images are in conflict...same book?

All I know that any coil you show me the positive wires climbing up towards your right hand fingers, your thumb will point the North pole face, period.

You go ahead and make that test, make a video and post it showing the opposite...simple.

Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Who's confused?

Bistander,...are you wearing your prescription reading glasses?

Have you taken your medications to relax?

Then take another look at your same image on right, except I zoomed it for you to see better (maybe it was too small) which -according to you- is "opposite" to mine...:

[IMG][/IMG]

I see absolutely no discrepancies at all...according to my Right Hand Rule, now on top of your drawing, my fingers are receiving the positive as my thumb is pointing the North Pole towards where you wrote "armature labeled "Y" the North Pole"...forget about "B Fields"...all that brings you is confusione (italian)...big time.

I am warning you, if you do not wear your prescribed reading glasses..You could end up with big headaches...

Take care, we need you here to explain to all of Us what's coming next...


Regards


Ufopolitics

Ufo,

In this image the currents in the armature conductors which you have marked with a red + are pointed out of the screen.



In this image, the currents in the armature conductors which you marked with red + are pointed into the screen.



So which is it? Fingers pointed with the current or fingers pointed against the current? Or any which way Ufo feels like doing today?

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Ufo,

Wrong. The B vector does define polarity. And the direction is N to S outside the source but S to N inside the source, like inside the magnet or coil. As in the diagram I attach below yours.



Note the image on the right. The armature conductors with cross (+) are conducting current into the page (or screen). The armature conductors with the dot (.) are conducting current out of the page (or screen). The B field or B vector of the armature points downwards. That makes the side of the armature labeled Y the North pole of the armature and the upper side of the armature labeled X the South pole of the armature. This is opposite from your diagram.

Also note the difference between the direction of rotation for motor vs generator.

Regards,

bi

Bistander,...are you wearing your prescription reading glasses?

Have you taken your medications to relax?

Then take another look at your same image on right, except I zoomed it for you to see better (maybe it was too small) which -according to you- is "opposite" to mine...:

[IMG][/IMG]

I see absolutely no discrepancies at all...according to my Right Hand Rule, now on top of your drawing, my fingers are receiving the positive as my thumb is pointing the North Pole towards where you wrote "armature labeled "Y" the North Pole"...forget about "B Fields"...all that brings you is confusione (italian)...big time.

I am warning you, if you do not wear your prescribed reading glasses..You could end up with big headaches...

Take care, we need you here to explain to all of Us what's coming next...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

B fields

Ufo,

B Fields are Directional Vectors on the whole magnetic field -according to Lorentz- and so, always travel from North to South, as B Fields do not define specific magnetic polarity.

Wrong. The B vector does define polarity. And the direction is N to S outside the source but S to N inside the source, like inside the magnet or coil. As in the diagram I attach below yours.

[IMG][/IMG]

Note the image on the right. The armature conductors with cross (+) are conducting current into the page (or screen). The armature conductors with the dot (.) are conducting current out of the page (or screen). The B field or B vector of the armature points downwards. That makes the side of the armature labeled Y the North pole of the armature and the upper side of the armature labeled X the South pole of the armature. This is opposite from your diagram.

Also note the difference between the direction of rotation for motor vs generator.

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Ji Ufo,

A response.

The right-hand rule applies to all induced fields by current carrying coils. I have no idea what you're talking about "outer poles" and agreed upon graphics. Please refer to that specific post.

You're wrong again, or still. Look through the book, the pdf in the link. There are many examples of B field direction based on current direction in coils. All agree with me. None agree with you. No other text or article or authority on the subject agrees with your interpretation of the right-hand rule. You're wrong. And you do a dis-service teaching that incorrect "rule" to others like sampojo. Give me a respectful source showing the right-hand rule with fingers pointing into the currents as opposed to pointed with the currents.

Regards,

bi

Bistander,

That Right Hand Rule is mine, and it don't refer to B Fields but to difference between specific North-South Magnetic Poles...I displayed it here to help visualize which pole is North and which is South at the time to wind any motor here.

I have tested this reference method hundreds of times when I start winding any motor or any coil. The Thumb points in the North direction if positive currents are traveling towards your fingers as shown on diagrams...method works and it is just another reference to guide people whenever winding motors or even simple coils.

B Fields are Directional Vectors on the whole magnetic field -according to Lorentz- and so, always travel from North to South, as B Fields do not define specific magnetic polarity.

[IMG][/IMG]

So, on a Single Magnet or in a single Two Pole armature-rotor the B Field travels from N to S within same object...that is why you were looking at images and saying they were correct when they were not, because I was referring to North pointing and not B Field pointing...

Asymmetric Machines are fed separately voltage polarity for each commutator, so, the always positive commutator I have oriented to be the one attached to power take off as reference, and when start winding making sure the Right Hand Rule, MY Right Hand Rule be used in order to be able to predict desired rotation.

It is very useful reference tool, whenever winding any of my motors. Basically if they would be the All North or All South Type.

Take care


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Right-hand rule

Hi Ufo,

A response.

Bistander,

I have no idea why you are posting that Img here?...it is a Static Armature, and center rotor from a Generator, and am just showing the full magnetic links there because it is required to know that for the generator understanding purposes.

In a motor it is not required...as outer poles are not directly related to motor function, that was the very first convention that we all agree on when I started posting my graphics on this thread.

The right-hand rule applies to all induced fields by current carrying coils. I have no idea what you're talking about "outer poles" and agreed upon graphics. Please refer to that specific post.

Bistander,


Look again at that picture...

[IMG][/IMG]

Please take look at the spot where the positive fed wire is coming towards screen...and attaches to positive brush feeding it through commutator.

Now look at a Right hand above DC Machine..:

[IMG][/IMG]

It is exactly like the image I have shown before (except this image is looking from above at machine), where positive is running toward my fingers...

So, that image is perfectly right, it is in complete agreement with mine...so, I am correct...so many thanks Bistander!!

At least you have found one more that agrees with me in all this hundreds of wrong images...

You're wrong again, or still. Look through the book, the pdf in the link. There are many examples of B field direction based on current direction in coils. All agree with me. None agree with you. No other text or article or authority on the subject agrees with your interpretation of the right-hand rule. You're wrong. And you do a dis-service teaching that incorrect "rule" to others like sampojo. Give me a respectful source showing the right-hand rule with fingers pointing into the currents as opposed to pointed with the currents.

Sorry, but I do not have the time to keep arguing with you here...go chase SidL...or BroMikey since you were missing him so much...

But you have time to follow my posts on unrelated threads. SidL and BM are fanboys of you, not me. I see we could add promt to the list. Why don't you reply to him? And don't you think there is something familiar about marathonman (MM) and MadMack (MM). Like MadMack claimed to have a working device and suckered you (and others) into doing a lot of work to no avail and then dropped off the planet. All the while, where is the proof you offer on the ENLIGHTENED MAGNETISM (The Full Proof of Ken Wheeler's Theories) thread? I wonder if Ken knows that you introduced your two new generators on a thread which could be interpreted to be attributed to him. Have you discussed those with Ken? As always, no need for a reply to me. I'll just stand by and see how this plays out.

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

I thought you had come around to the conventional way of thinking when you posted this.

Bistander,

I have no idea why you are posting that Img here?...it is a Static Armature, and center rotor from a Generator, and am just showing the full magnetic links there because it is required to know that for the generator understanding purposes.

In a motor it is not required...as outer poles are not directly related to motor function, that was the very first convention that we all agree on when I started posting my graphics on this thread.

And no, I don't just rely on Google or the internet for my knowledge base.

http://prof.usb.ve/jaller/Fitzgerald.pdf

This is a great reference and text book on which we agreed in another thread. I happened to find it on line for your convenience. I have the 3th edition beside my computer here. See page 3, figure 1.1. It agrees with my interpretation of field polarity with respect to current direction in the coil.

And later it that book, this figure confirming direction of rotation. Note the text above the figure. It is a generator so the indicated rotation is opposite from a motor.

Regards,

bi

Bistander,


Look again at that picture...

[IMG][/IMG]

Please take look at the spot where the positive fed wire is coming towards screen...and attaches to positive brush feeding it through commutator.

Now look at a Right hand above DC Machine..:

[IMG][/IMG]

It is exactly like the image I have shown before (except this image is looking from above at machine), where positive is running toward my fingers...

So, that image is perfectly right, it is in complete agreement with mine...so, I am correct...so many thanks Bistander!!

At least you have found one more that agrees with me in all this hundreds of wrong images...

Sorry, but I do not have the time to keep arguing with you here...go chase SidL...or BroMikey since you were missing him so much...

Take care


Ufopolitics