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  • Hi Machine,
    you might remember to extract the grease (by solvent) out of the bearings like they recommend at rotoverter. In your setup bearings do not suffer on maximum specified load therefore you can operate them with oil. Especially the big ones travle a lot distance and consume excessive power.
    Bearing greese is a non Newtonian (tixotropic) substance. It liquifies by being stressed (oil!) by ball and solifies behind the ball passing (grease).
    You might have good results with full synthetic car oil 0W-xx because it was made especially for low shear force when being operated.
    JS
    Last edited by JohnStone; 09-16-2013, 04:41 PM.
    Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.

    Comment


    • Hey Johnstone

      Yea, those were real cheap bearings, but the same type I've been using. Ya takes chances taking apart and cleaning bearings, likely not something I will do. But I am going to turn that coupling just a little more, maybe the big bearing is not needed, it was mainly to align and steady shaft. Then we move to more expensive ideas. Also, the imperial wires seem to push harder on one side, and may be slightly skewing shaft. In terms of bearings, here's the cats ass.

      Active magnetic bearings - SKF.com/Products

      If I had of went the engineering route in school, this was what I was hoping to work on. Magnetic, frictionless bearings. Big bucks, and big Improvements.
      I bet we could build our own.

      Lets get the drum finished, and spinning, then start refining our setup, with bucks. If it seems worth it .A few truckloads of wood will buy some nice equipment.

      BTW, can't wait for some updated pics of your machine. How's the wiring going, getting sore fingers yet?

      Anyway, today I'm gonna double up those fets and who knows how low amps will go once we start pulsing, and lathe the coupler, tell it just slides in easy.

      Machine

      **If you're reading this, you are the resistance, now fight for your freedom and build victory.**

      Comment


      • Originally posted by machinealive View Post
        .... In terms of bearings, here's the cats ass.

        Active magnetic bearings - SKF.com/Products

        If I had of went the engineering route in school, this was what I was hoping to work on. Magnetic, frictionless bearings. Big bucks, and big Improvements.
        I bet we could build our own.

        BTW, can't wait for some updated pics of your machine. How's the wiring going, getting sore fingers yet?
        ...
        Unless you inted to build a turbomolecular vacuum pump you do not need magnetic bearings. They are not glad if you have any imbalance. For heavy rotors they add active magnetic balancing at run time!!! Just replace grease with oil and you will be more than happy. Oiled bearings you can push easily to 50K rpm and more with pressured air (don't do that yourself !!!!!!). I once saw one escaping and running along the workshop ascending a wall and traveling along ceiling with an unconceivable speed (about ten times your chain saw).
        Regarding my motor I am stuck now because of execessive work. Still not got the new shaft manufactured. No wiring yet. Hope to get monsters from oshpark soon.
        John
        Last edited by JohnStone; 09-16-2013, 06:20 PM.
        Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.

        Comment


        • Hey John

          I'll try to re-lube the other big bearing, and then replace the one I have in now. That is a good idea. Once the inner stator is in, I'm sure we're going to need that big bearing to keep things aligned.

          Comment


          • A few truckloads of wood will buy some nice equipment.

            Ohhh, ya gotta love it, with Machine it's a few loads of wood, and me it's a few extra rows of Garlic, Zuccinis, corn etc.

            We are truely lucky folks.

            The next new model is just around the corner!!.

            Warm Regards Cornboy.
            Last edited by Cornboy 555; 09-17-2013, 03:02 AM.

            Comment


            • Hello Friend

              Originally posted by machinealive View Post
              I got the imperial installed in generator frame.

              motor ran at 36v dc, 11-12 amps, 2900 rpm, with no gen.

              motor ran at 36v dc, 19-20 amps, 2200 rpm, installed, with bearings and coupling.

              Prime mover - YouTube
              Hello My Friend!

              Nice fit Man!

              Now, the fact that by just by installing bearings and coupler...it increases Amps that much (almost twice)...as reducing RPM's by 700...means that you still have serious friction or misalignment there between coupler, bearings and Imperial Shaft ...(It shouldn't be that much increase) however, that "comes with the territory"...of setting extra bearings and couplers within a short shaft length...so, your machining to more precise center is highly required my friend.

              I recommend, since Imperial has a Shaft with centered alignment holes on both ends...to set just the rotor on Lathe...attached to all connecting bearings and couplers to Chuck or to a fixed clamping and spin it to rectify whole assembly...if that is possible in your Chuck and Lathe settings capabilities.

              On the other hand...I believe you could pull way more RPM's from that Imperial with 36V...like you mentioned before, it could be timing settings.

              What is your resistance per Pair?

              Though, Amperage draw, to be linear feed is awesome!

              Now, some things to remember from the Generator side...

              Figuera's Generator does NOT requires such strong Motor...

              And...If you have a Four Pole Generator (Understand Four Poles as Stator Poles)...the RPM's would be Half of a Two Pole like your Mecc Alte requires, meaning, just 1800...Mecc Alte have Two Poles on its Brushless Rotor... therefore, it is a 3600 RPM's drive to generate the required 60 Cycles or Hertz.

              I don't know, but if Canada is set to 50 Hz on AC like Europe...then you just need 1500 RPM's.




              Warm Regards


              We will get there...no sweat.


              Ufopolitics
              Last edited by Ufopolitics; 09-17-2013, 03:34 AM.
              Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

              Comment


              • There will come a Time...

                Originally posted by machinealive View Post
                Hey Johnstone

                Yea, those were real cheap bearings, but the same type I've been using. Ya takes chances taking apart and cleaning bearings, likely not something I will do. But I am going to turn that coupling just a little more, maybe the big bearing is not needed, it was mainly to align and steady shaft. Then we move to more expensive ideas. Also, the imperial wires seem to push harder on one side, and may be slightly skewing shaft. In terms of bearings, here's the cats ass.

                Active magnetic bearings - SKF.com/Products

                If I had of went the engineering route in school, this was what I was hoping to work on. Magnetic, frictionless bearings. Big bucks, and big Improvements.
                I bet we could build our own.

                Lets get the drum finished, and spinning, then start refining our setup, with bucks. If it seems worth it .A few truckloads of wood will buy some nice equipment.

                BTW, can't wait for some updated pics of your machine. How's the wiring going, getting sore fingers yet?

                Anyway, today I'm gonna double up those fets and who knows how low amps will go once we start pulsing, and lathe the coupler, tell it just slides in easy.

                Machine

                **If you're reading this, you are the resistance, now fight for your freedom and build victory.**
                Hello Friend,

                Do not worry Machine, my friend...There would be a time...when we will not need bearings anymore...

                The same Technology that this Company applies to maintain Stators and Rotors within bearings keeping a magnetic precise gap...we all could do it with Asymmetrical Magnetic Interactions...We will just need more than just two repulsions at 180...but, starting at 3 for 120...even better Six every 60...and... about "Radial" and "Axial"...We can have both within same Stator-Rotor Configurations...or (( Alignments...copy?

                There will only be required a "Take Off-Landing Mechanism" to start from Zero RPM's and to "Land" when stopping Machine...then, they will "retract" or "extend"...just like a Landing Gear in a Plane does...once required RPM's and Magnetic Balancing Pressure are achieved...

                Everything is possible...We are the ones who decide... If or If Not it could be made...

                **I am reading this...so We are "The Resistance"...Let's fight!...**


                Warm Regards


                Ufopolitics
                Last edited by Ufopolitics; 09-17-2013, 03:59 AM.
                Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                Comment


                • Hello UFO comrade

                  Yes we still might get everything working at 1800. I just took the shields off bearing and that made quite a difference just by itself, I'm gonna clean the bearings out tomorrow and put some chain or gear oil on. The bearing is pretty much enclosed, so I am gonna leave shields off. Thanks for the push Johnstone.

                  Ufo, I also wondered how a tiny little asymetric motor would look as a bearing.

                  I didn't look at the fets tonight, because I can't stay away from this generator. UFO, have you been thinking about winding this drum. What about a compound wind, big wire few turns for current, in series with load, and a lots smaller turns for voltage, in parallel? We should be able to get lots of wire on this drum, eh UFO.

                  Comment


                  • Yes We Can...

                    Originally posted by machinealive View Post
                    Hello UFO comrade

                    Yes we still might get everything working at 1800. I just took the shields off bearing and that made quite a difference just by itself, I'm gonna clean the bearings out tomorrow and put some chain or gear oil on. The bearing is pretty much enclosed, so I am gonna leave shields off. Thanks for the push Johnstone.

                    Ufo, I also wondered how a tiny little asymetric motor would look as a bearing.

                    I didn't look at the fets tonight, because I can't stay away from this generator. UFO, have you been thinking about winding this drum. What about a compound wind, big wire few turns for current, in series with load, and a lots smaller turns for voltage, in parallel? We should be able to get lots of wire on this drum, eh UFO.
                    Hey Machine, awake this late?...welcome to the Club...

                    Yes, think about a tiny asymmetrical Motor...36 poles...dual rotors...as bearing..

                    OR...A Shaft-less Asymmetrical One...where Stator Hollow Center is the Inner Diameter (ID) fixed mount to shaft, where bearing used to fit...

                    And, yes...a combined winding...that could be...

                    I believe the best way to set windings on Drum...in order to get more copper within a more reduced profile...plus a more robust and constant E-flow...would be "Overlapped" Coils...or ////...just like we wind the Imperial Coils...Another Spiral like winding.


                    Regards


                    Ufopolitics
                    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 09-17-2013, 05:17 AM.
                    Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                    Comment


                    • Reply to UFO's Question p5428 on my QP410P-AC Gen setup

                      Originally posted by Ufopolitics Post 5428 View Post
                      Hello Sampojo,

                      Yes, definitively pulsing the small Pentagon Motor would bring better results than linear feed...but as you said...and as I wrote before...there must be a balance in the Armature/Rotor Mass of both machines, I wrote that when we were attaching Imperial to Meccalte...I have not seen your set up pictures of this late tests...so can not tell you about being too small for the job.

                      Related to the Enhanced Pentagon...I remember that further on I posted something about this design...something that for some reason did NOT worked out the way I expected in certain arrangements...can not remember at this point what 'exactly' was ...

                      The Enhanced Pentagon does not require other spools for its winding...just first Pair and then second Pair...and so on...just watch the vertical wire build up...keep pressing it down, compacting wires.

                      The Baldor with the 5 pole as the RS Motor would be an excellent and simple choice....very strong and fast machine for a prime mover...I suggested to widen the gaps between joint commutator elements...but do not do this first...run it first AS IS...and observe if there are too much sparking/heating on commutator brushes...I, honestly believe that due to the size of armature and big commutator...heat would be dissipated fine.

                      Also I recommended to make higher resistance values per Coils/Pairs above 2.0 Ohms.


                      Kind regards friend


                      Ufopolitics

                      Hi Ufo,

                      So here is my setup where you can see both my Quad Penatagon 10 Pole Asymmetric motor and the converted shade-pole generator together.



                      So I hope that once pulsed, my QP410P can drive it. But probably not at 12v, since my test run on 2 motor brush sets only produced about 1400 rpm. Maybe pulsed it can take 24v. So since the shaft is getting very warm also, would it be the commutators heating it alone or is heat being dissipated from the rotor in these motors. But never really see any significant temp rise on the coils... Where do you find the most heat being generated in these motors? I maybe should look for a smaller AC gen, as a little side amusement.

                      Regarding the CONVERSION OF AN INDUCTION MOTOR TO A GENERATOR, notice I just threw in the polarized cap and it did the trick as for as triggering in the AC generation (after shocking the motor with 110v AC to get the residual magnetism). The cap is in parallel with the AC-out leads. There seems to be connections for a starting cap? but it didn't seem to help start generation.

                      On the Baldor, I guess I would want to be more sure of the performance of the winding pattern and would go to my experience on the Dual Pentagon 5-Pole Y pattern. That would be better than the standard Radio Shack Hobby Motor winding pattern for a prime mover, right? You had some high praise for this pattern in Post 1470. And shoot for higher ohms there too, maybe 3 or 4 ohm right?

                      I dream about finding another Baldor at my local motor goldmine builders supply store, and making asymmetric generator, and Wow, the idea of putting 2 rotors together on one shaft. Wouldn't the standard RS winding be a good choice to your generator directions (with the Baldor rotor have more poles per coil) about making sub-coils, Post 3398, then the Dual Pentagon winding?

                      Un milione de grazie, amico
                      Last edited by sampojo; 09-17-2013, 06:40 AM.
                      Up, Up and Away

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cornboy 555 View Post
                        A few truckloads of wood will buy some nice equipment.

                        Ohhh, ya gotta love it, with Machine it's a few loads of wood, and me it's a few extra rows of Garlic, Zuccinis, corn etc.

                        We are truely lucky folks.

                        The next new model is just around the corner!!.

                        Warm Regards Cornboy.
                        Yes @cornboy and @Machine and @All, you guys are all lucky in that way. As our lucky day, we all might be even more luckier now, since

                        Wave goodbye to global warming, GM and pesticides
                        Radio wave-treated water could change agriculture as we know it. Its Irish pioneers meet Tom Prendeville


                        Wave goodbye to global warming, GM and pesticides - Independent.ie

                        (Sorry it is little off topic but I thought it is matter of great importance)

                        The technology radio wave energised water massively increases the output of vegetables and fruits by up to 30 per cent. Not only are the plants much bigger but they are largely disease-resistant, meaning huge savings in expensive fertilisers and harmful pesticides.

                        Extensively tested in Ireland and several other countries. ...

                        I hope this proves useful.

                        Mean while, I am trying to reduce noise on ACS712 Low Current Sensor. I hope this is soon completed and integrated into the main sensor program.



                        Description: This current sensor gives precise current measurement for both AC and DC signals. These are good sensors for metering and measuring overall power consumption of systems. The ACS712 current sensor measures up to 5A of DC or AC current. SparkFun added an opamp gain stage for more sensitive current measurements. By adjusting the gain (from 4.27 to 47) you can measure very small currents.


                        Warmest regards

                        light

                        Comment


                        • Good to hear from you lightworker, glad your still with us. yes, electro horticulture was all the rage once, eh Cornboy.

                          Hey, I re packed the bearings, used nice light gear oil. Did 2400rpm, @ 36 v and 14 amps . So we're doing really good. This was roughly what meccalte did with no load. Also, got the imperial to fit a little better, now coupler is a hair too large, but oh so straight. So will need to put a set screw in. So we can now move on to slip rings and drum. I think a three brush slip ring at least, with one for large ga. asymmetric coil 1-5 winds, and one or more for small ga. Asymmetric coil, for high volts. Then combine them. I was gonna make slip out of copper, but why not aluminum.

                          Nice work sampojo.

                          Machine

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by machinealive View Post
                            Good to hear from you lightworker, glad your still with us. yes, electro horticulture was all the rage once, eh Cornboy.

                            Hey, I re packed the bearings, used nice light gear oil. Did 2400rpm, @ 36 v and 14 amps . So we're doing really good. This was roughly what meccalte did with no load. Also, got the imperial to fit a little better, now coupler is a hair too large, but oh so straight. So will need to put a set screw in. So we can now move on to slip rings and drum. I think a three brush slip ring at least, with one for large ga. asymmetric coil 1-5 winds, and one or more for small ga. Asymmetric coil, for high volts. Then combine them. I was gonna make slip out of copper, but why not aluminum.

                            Nice work sampojo.

                            Machine
                            Glad you got your bearings velocity cured

                            I bet you never have seen bare aluminum. What you see is aluminum oxide as aluminum is extremely active with oxygene and covers and protects itself instantly - else it would burn instantly. As this oxide layer is gas thight it can't grow more than some atoms in thickness and we get good electrical contact (static!). We know this layer to be thicker at anodized parts - extremely good insulator - employed for electrolitic caps as well (DC!).
                            OK so far! But using as commutator?
                            Rubbing oxide from surface again and again! If that oxide gathers at the active brush surface it will isolate any current flow or get the brush it to higher impedance. At least it is not semiconductive like tin oxide - a big problem at vibrating tinned contacts.
                            JS
                            Last edited by JohnStone; 09-17-2013, 08:23 PM.
                            Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.

                            Comment


                            • yes, electro horticulture was all the rage once, eh Cornboy.

                              Hey Machine, Et al, i have used radionics, with growing plants and animals, some years back, and have come to the conclusion, that there is no substitute, for proper treatment of the soil life, via good soil Fauna and Flora feeding principles.

                              When the Bio-Dynamic preperations are correctly made and stored, and then placed into warm, pure water and stirred rythmically, CW till a deep vortex is created then collapsed, and stirred CCW and collapsed etc etc, it enlivens the mix, and when sprayed out as droplets, not mist, below 10PSI, so as not to damage any of the precious life you have created, it is a catalist for an enlivened soil life environment.

                              With such an environment, along with good soil husbandry, you can grow crops one after another with no fertiliser inputs whatso ever.

                              I have done this for 5 yrs now without any inputs, on my cropping fields, and the soil seems to be getting better and better!!!.

                              Now the beauty of this is that with some knowledge of the process anyone can grow healthy plants and animals, without being plugged in to fert companies and chemical resellers.

                              Also, you can make , store and apply this on a small scale by hand, with hand stirring!.

                              Regards Cornboy.

                              Comment


                              • Question on reusing commutators on the big motors

                                Hi gang,

                                Looking a my Baldor comms, notice how they machine pressed the comm gap closed over the wire. How is this corrected and with what tools short of taking it to a machine shop?



                                Can the wires be yanked out? Use a little pry tool as in Ufo's Imperial winding video to get the gap open? maybe a small file next? Can a drill bit be used? Any and all of these things? I guess use my drill press to drill the gaps out a bit with a smallish bit, less than the diameter of the selected gauge I would use?

                                Here is Ufo's Imperial commutator.



                                I guess you see the doubled wire bc Ufo said the gaps on his comm was for 16 ga so the second wire is 16 ga to lock in his 18 ga. and then cross into the next half comm segment to tie them together, as even the Imperial commutator has 56 segments for a 28 pole motor, just a my baldor has 40 segments for a 20pole motor. (I guess they do this for some benefit of that symmetric winding?)

                                So if you try to put some taper in the slot, just shove the wire up into it and press it in, gap it over to the second half segment, cram it in and thats it? Retap the gap with a flat punch to maybe smash the gap down again a little bit?

                                Since I will be making a giant RS motor , eight of these comm (half) segments must be wired together.

                                Hey Ufo,

                                You mentioned widening a gap between comm segment groups to cut sparking maybe on the comm designed this way since it would be in contact with one coil so long. What about just leaving one segment out and wiring only 7 together?

                                Thanks, Sam
                                Last edited by sampojo; 09-18-2013, 02:29 AM.
                                Up, Up and Away

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