My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[Ufopolitics]

Once Upon a Time...

Hello to All,


I have repeated this here to exhaustion...but, I will do it again.

In a Symmetric Motor "World", a closed looped motor, having High RPM's does NOT means -AT ALL- motor have also a Higher Torque, BUT the opposite 'applies' in this old technology.

In Symmetry RPM's and TORQUE are completely "INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL"...which means you can ONLY have either one Parameter 'seating' at High levels, while 'sacrificing the second.

Asymmetry wipes out this VERY OLD Concept in Motors, demonstrating Both Parameters can be completely and DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL.

Which means that a Higher RPM Motor DOES MEAN it has a Higher Torque included in the package.

Therefore, We can NOT MIX old concepts and apply them to Asymmetry Machines testing results.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

The purpose of an electric motor is to convert electrical energy into mechanical energy as efficiently as possible. The measure of that output is torque.

As a novice builder some months ago, I was under the impression that revs equals torque. However. High revs does not necessarily equate to high torque.

There is a belief that calculating RPM/W is a good guide to the motors performance against a benchmark, usually the unmodified OEM baseline.

Over the past few days I have been Prony testing all the motors on my kitchen table. A few are presented here using my theory on percentage comparison :

No load figures for Watts and RPM on a 10v PSU (using ~ as a separator) -
OEM ~ 3.29W ~ 1492rpm
SC7 ~ 5.35W ~ 2823rpm
SC10 ~ 4.84W ~ 3160rpm

Taking the OEM as 100% -
OEM ~ 100% ~ 100%
SC7 ~ 163% ~ 189%
SC10 ~ 147% ~ 212%

%RPM/%W (result should be 1 'one' or higher to out perform the OEM) -
OEM ~ 1
SC7 ~ 1.16
SC10 ~ 1.44

Both motors out perform the OEM on the assumption that 'no load' RPM/W is a comparison.

Prony results - Torque output and Watts input -
OEM ~ 25.2Ncm ~ 40.26W
SC6 ~ 31.5Ncm ~ 102.52W
SC7 ~ 23.9Ncm ~ 69.84W
SC10 ~ 27.6Ncm ~ 84.2W

Taking the OEM as 100% -
OEM ~ 100% ~ 100%
SC6 ~ 125% ~ 255%
SC7 ~ 95% ~ 174%
SC10 ~ 110% ~ 209%

%Torque/%W (again, result should be 1 'one' or higher to out perform the OEM) -
OEM ~ 1
SC6 ~ 0.49
SC7 ~ 0.55
SC10 ~ 0.53

Two of the motors produce higher torque but all at the expense of higher watts. Accordingly, none of the motors have a high Torque/W ratio.

It's my assertion that the best method of comparison is Torque/Watt ratio. Not RPM/Watt ratio which can mislead.

Happy Hunting

mark

Mark,

Are all your Asymmetric Motors done right now?... for the Tests shown above?

Meaning, you are still having ON the leaving/disconnecting coil, while it was passing the South Stator Bisector?

According to your latest post discussion with me...the geometry of your motor would not allow to switch OFF the leaving coil while it was passing South Stator Bisector.

That is a Killer for Performance...and if you still have all those wrong time settings, all those tests are not valid.


Keep Hunting...


Ufopolitics

[HuntingRoss]

Mark,

The 21 Amps means 'Max Current Limit Settings' which is set up at PSU, which means they were regulating Voltage while Amps was fixed to Max Output.

It could be done the other way around, which is the proper way I think, meaning to set Amps Output 'Floating' (not fixed) so, depending on Voltage increase the PSU will do 'the math' automatically according to amps demand from machine.

It seems too many amps applied for such low voltage at start up, eg:1.9V X 20A...but Machine does take it well...

The advantage of an Asymmetric Machine is that since they are Open Circuits, closing up only for nano seconds when each coil is fired, there is NO time enough for Amps to fully develop within energized circuit, since Amps in order to 'populate' in an ascending and steady curve require a full time closed circuit. Actually the proper reading needs to be done with a DC Pulsed Amp Meter, (have no idea if that kind of tool has been designed yet...) that would calculate 'an average' operating amps per fraction of time.


Cheers


Ufopolitics

1.9volts @ 21amps... 40 watts starts RPMs. Start of vid
20Volts @ 21apms... 420 watts vid's peak RPMs at the end(did you hear those RPMs increasing to 20 volts)

Thanks UFO.

That confirms my assumption based on the low starting volts, and it has been confirmed now that the power consumption at 20v is 420W.

This seems very high to me for a 'no load' test. Perhaps I'm just used to smaller motors.

Hunting

mark

[HuntingRoss]

My thoughts on Motors and Testing

The purpose of an electric motor is to convert electrical energy into mechanical energy as efficiently as possible. The measure of that output is torque.

As a novice builder some months ago, I was under the impression that revs equals torque. However. High revs does not necessarily equate to high torque.

There is a belief that calculating RPM/W is a good guide to the motors performance against a benchmark, usually the unmodified OEM baseline.

Over the past few days I have been Prony testing all the motors on my kitchen table. A few are presented here using my theory on percentage comparison :

No load figures for Watts and RPM on a 10v PSU (using ~ as a separator) -
OEM ~ 3.29W ~ 1492rpm
SC7 ~ 5.35W ~ 2823rpm
SC10 ~ 4.84W ~ 3160rpm

Taking the OEM as 100% -
OEM ~ 100% ~ 100%
SC7 ~ 163% ~ 189%
SC10 ~ 147% ~ 212%

%RPM/%W (result should be 1 'one' or higher to out perform the OEM) -
OEM ~ 1
SC7 ~ 1.16
SC10 ~ 1.44

Both motors out perform the OEM on the assumption that 'no load' RPM/W is a comparison.

Prony results - Torque output and Watts input -
OEM ~ 25.2Ncm ~ 40.26W
SC6 ~ 31.5Ncm ~ 102.52W
SC7 ~ 23.9Ncm ~ 69.84W
SC10 ~ 27.6Ncm ~ 84.2W

Taking the OEM as 100% -
OEM ~ 100% ~ 100%
SC6 ~ 125% ~ 255%
SC7 ~ 95% ~ 174%
SC10 ~ 110% ~ 209%

%Torque/%W (again, result should be 1 'one' or higher to out perform the OEM) -
OEM ~ 1
SC6 ~ 0.49
SC7 ~ 0.55
SC10 ~ 0.53

Two of the motors produce higher torque but all at the expense of higher watts. Accordingly, none of the motors have a high Torque/W ratio.

It's my assertion that the best method of comparison is Torque/Watt ratio. Not RPM/Watt ratio which can mislead.

Happy Hunting

mark

[Midaztouch]

I have a question

We have the RPMs and weight of the rotor increasing the torque.


Should we even care about Horsepower anymore?!

[Midaztouch]

No, 18ga is fine for what you're doing. A lack of heat means your motor is not loosing energy from your rotor windings, but I wonder what losses are incurred by the brushes? I assume you ran it for at least 5 minutes.

420 W is a little over 1/2 horsepower. Too bad you didn't have access to a dyno while you were there to measure shaft horsepower. You could compare its output power to input power and calculate efficiency.

I think you did a great job building a homemade motor.

Don't forget, there was a strand of 18awg wedged between the rotor and magnets during the check. Plus the bearing is rubbing heavily on the front end plate. The wire was the ping and I stopped the testing. I'm just happy it ran like a normal motor on DC power supply. That was my focus.

At 48v, this unbalanced motor is well over 7000rpms with the vibrations to match! The frame is built for 3000rpms with no vibrations.

Today, I loaded up my bicycle and peddled 2 hours to the electric motor company. No appointment, no phone call, no email, no nothing.... just showed up! with the A1MoGen, a 12V battery and jumper cables. Told the secretary I needed my motor checked on the DC power supply, then connected the motor up in the main hallway entrance.... Then got a cup of cold green tea and waited.

The A1MoGen worked fine on a DC Power Supply.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz "The Negotiator"

[dyetalon]

It was room temp before and after. I had to carry it on my shoulder with my face on the case around that huge building trying to keep up.

Is 20 amps a lot of current for 18awg wire?
From my calculations the motor should be able to handle 32 amps with no problems

No, 18ga is fine for what you're doing. A lack of heat means your motor is not loosing energy from your rotor windings, but I wonder what losses are incurred by the brushes? I assume you ran it for at least 5 minutes.

420 W is a little over 1/2 horsepower. Too bad you didn't have access to a dyno while you were there to measure shaft horsepower. You could compare its output power to input power and calculate efficiency.

I think you did a great job building a homemade motor.

[Ufopolitics]

UFO Imperial Kit

Hi UFO,
Thanks a ton for all you've done. Imperial Kit info please? Almost bought one when i read this. If you posted the Kit-path Rx before in this massive thread, please link it Kind Sir.

Besides EV Everything-ExpensiveDOTcom's 24VDC 750W Bosch alternative, any other 24VDC Candidate replacements discovered without going to 36VDC?

Is there an Asymmetrical application for Cole-Bedini Window Motor's 90 degree Generator Coil? This 3rd question does not fit this thread, so please PM me if you can point me to succeed with the Lockridge 90 degree coil configuration. Coil shorting and/or un-shorting will be my next focus.

Thank you All for posting about Fiber-Fix for binding small motor bodies together.

-Ward

Thanks Ward,

Below is the only "UFO KIT" available...that I could find...

[IMG][/IMG]

































Just kidding...


The Info is at page 97 and you could see direct link post below:

LINK TO UFO KIT

Now, the "already wound" Rotor is NOT Asymmetrical...so, make sure rotor is NOT wound, however, Dyann knows exactly what this is all about.

Thanks for your interest in Asymmetrical Machines


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

I note you have corrected the 60W to 40W, which is fair enough...but I don't understand what you're saying about the 21 amps...

What was the power at 20v ?

Presumably it was 420W no load.

Hunting

Mark,

The 21 Amps means 'Max Current Limit Settings' which is set up at PSU, which means they were regulating Voltage while Amps was fixed to Max Output.

It could be done the other way around, which is the proper way I think, meaning to set Amps Output 'Floating' (not fixed) so, depending on Voltage increase the PSU will do 'the math' automatically according to amps demand from machine.

It seems too many amps applied for such low voltage at start up, eg:1.9V X 20A...but Machine does take it well...

The advantage of an Asymmetric Machine is that since they are Open Circuits, closing up only for nano seconds when each coil is fired, there is NO time enough for Amps to fully develop within energized circuit, since Amps in order to 'populate' in an ascending and steady curve require a full time closed circuit. Actually the proper reading needs to be done with a DC Pulsed Amp Meter, (have no idea if that kind of tool has been designed yet...) that would calculate 'an average' operating amps per fraction of time.


Cheers


Ufopolitics

[JC4me]

Hello Sam,

Hey Bistander, thanks for posting that forklift armature!

...
...

I tell you it is NOW a piece of cake to get an Imperial Kit and just put it together and wind it...

...
...
Regards

Ufopolitics

Hi UFO,
Thanks a ton for all you've done. Imperial Kit info please? Almost bought one when i read this. If you posted the Kit-path Rx before in this massive thread, please link it Kind Sir.

Besides EV Everything-ExpensiveDOTcom's 24VDC 750W Bosch alternative, any other 24VDC Candidate replacements discovered without going to 36VDC?

Is there an Asymmetrical application for Cole-Bedini Window Motor's 90 degree Generator Coil? This 3rd question does not fit this thread, so please PM me if you can point me to succeed with the Lockridge 90 degree coil configuration. Coil shorting and/or un-shorting will be my next focus.

Thank you All for posting about Fiber-Fix for binding small motor bodies together.

-Ward

[Midaztouch]

Did you take any temperature measurements of the motors case before and after you did the 420 W run? I'm curious as to the amount of heat generated within the windings with so much current.

It was room temp before and after. I had to carry it on my shoulder with my face on the case around that huge building trying to keep up.

Is 20 amps a lot of current for 18awg wire?
From my calculations the motor should be able to handle 32 amps with no problems

[dyetalon]

The vid finally up on YT. Take a look and tell me what you think.

1.9volts @ 21amps... 40 watts starts RPMs. Start of vid
20Volts @ 21apms... 420 watts vid's peak RPMs at the end(did you hear those RPMs increasing to 20 volts)

Remember, this motor is handmade. It's not balanced and it has a lot of Mechanical drag loses.

If you listen carefully, you can hear a wire scraping under the magnets under low RPMs. It got stuck under the magnets doing transporting.


Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

This place is huge. We were in a tiny back office. The front main testing lab is all white with ALL state-of-the-art equipment $$$$$$$$. This is an old picture, it bigger! It covers Almost all of the land.

Did you take any temperature measurements of the motors case before and after you did the 420 W run? I'm curious as to the amount of heat generated within the windings with so much current.

[Midaztouch]

The vid finally up on YT. Take a look and tell me what you think.

1.9volts @ 21amps... 40 watts starts RPMs. Start of vid
20Volts @ 21apms... 420 watts vid's peak RPMs at the end(did you hear those RPMs increasing to 20 volts)

Remember, this motor is handmade. It's not balanced and it has a lot of Mechanical drag loses.

If you listen carefully, you can hear a wire scraping under the magnets under low RPMs. It got stuck under the magnets durng transporting.

[VIDEO]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xwcPckoSbtA[/VIDEO]




Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

This place is huge. We were in a tiny back office. The front main testing lab is all white with ALL state-of-the-art equipment $$$$$$$$. This is an old picture, it bigger! It covers Almost all of the land.

[Midaztouch]

I note you have corrected the 60W to 40W, which is fair enough...but I don't understand what you're saying about the 21 amps...

What was the power at 20v ?

Presumably it was 420W no load.

Hunting

Before the testing started, the engineers set the machine on 20 Apms... From their test results of thier New EV Switch Reluctant/SR motor, 20amps was the baseline for thier motor.

It seems like they wanted used 20amps for a comparison of their SR motor in RPMs... They didn't want to do the test RPMs test, torque test was out of the question! The CEO of Sales made the staff do the RPMs run. The head engineer didn't bother to leave his desk when the CEO asked him to start the power supply run... Or look at me, when I walked past him and said "Thank you" went starting and leaving.

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[HuntingRoss]

Originally Posted by Midaz
Lowest setting = 1.9volts @ 21amps... 40watts starts RPMs
Highest setting = 20volts @ 21amps
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuntingRoss View Post
I make that 39.9W and 420W respectively.

420W seems high for a no load test ?

Hunting

The DC Power Supply was set on 21 Apms. It was the baseline for amps.

I note you have corrected the 60W to 40W, which is fair enough...but I don't understand what you're saying about the 21 amps...

What was the power at 20v ?

Presumably it was 420W no load.

Hunting