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  • researching a bigger operation

    Hi Ufo,

    Found a 3kva Mecce Alte, 2001. Not supposed to be over used. I know how you raved about the brushless design on you 2010 model. Not as much wattage. Do you think the design of their earlier models will be as efficient? And no prob on finding coupling mechanisms?

    thanks again.

    Joe
    Last edited by sampojo; 06-05-2013, 05:14 AM.
    Up, Up and Away

    Comment


    • I think that's a good Generator...

      Originally posted by sampojo View Post
      Hi Ufo,

      Found a 3kva Mecce Alte, 2001. Not supposed to be over used. I know how you raved about the brushless design on you 2010 model. Not as much wattage. Do you think the design of their earlier models will be as efficient? And no prob on finding coupling mechanisms?

      thanks again.

      Joe

      Hello Sampojo,


      Yeah, I think that is a good machine...is it brushless?

      On another issue...but related to Generators...I have been reading the Clemente Figuera Patents...and I highly recommend to read them...I find excellent ideas to build a very "soft/easy" to rotate machine...as it will produce High Outputs.

      The principle He goes by is not too complicated...but very smart...and "No Laws Violations"...Faraday/Lenz...are present there.

      http://imageshack.us/a/img18/4147/fi...patent3037.jpg

      He, very smart, rotates only the Generating Fields Coils and their Insulation frame...non of them magnetic (Copper/Plastic/Mica, etc...while the center steel core is not movable...nor the outer exciting coils and cores...He explains even a "weak" motor could turn this generator...and IMHO...I believe it could be done.
      I am very tempted to CAD and replicate this old Patent (1908) concept...and of course...adding some new tech improvements...non existing in those years...

      Faraday concept is very clear..."Moving a copper conductor cutting the lines perpendicular to a magnetic field, will induce a current in such conductor..."

      As we all know...Faraday never mentioned we have to also move "THE WHOLE HOUSE" along with the wire coils passing the magnetic field(s) in order to obtain an induction...

      The Patent Diagrams are "very generally displayed"...as per the "Legal Establishment" requires...in order to be properly "protected".

      But We can CAD them and make them awesome...after all... that patent is "very" Public Domain by now.

      And of course I will not be posting about this Issue here...don't want to deviate from your tests and related fields...I will be doing it on that Thread...

      That concept is "scalable" to any size...so starting at a small scale...would be great to prove a point.


      Regards


      Ufopolitics
      Last edited by Ufopolitics; 06-06-2013, 12:35 AM.
      Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

      Comment


      • thinking about the winding for 10-pole Quad Pent

        Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
        There are a total of Ten South Coils on the Ten Poles Config. ...and You are NOT supposed to start winding the North Coils...till done with the Ten(10) South Inner Coils.
        I dunno Ufo but I think you can easily put in 5 South half coils, and then start winding the North coil of your first coil over pole 3-4, no? Then you never have more than 5 spools dangling around. kinda wild if you do 10 S poles with them all dangling around... Crazy, man, as Maynard G. Krebbs used to say on the Doby Gillis Show.

        The "swapping" of Commutator order to start winding...could be easily corrected by feeding positive through the starting commutator, no matter if at top or bottom...and yes, feeding as graphic shpws...will rotate opposite to diagram...no biggie.
        I am switching the wires, I don't know which way to bend the "Y" now, and if that matters either. Then I have no idea which way to turn the brush plate for tuning, either... Gonna dupe your diagram just the way you made it!

        On the Mecce Alted 3kva, don't own it yet. I was hoping it would be brushless like yours even if its a 2001 model. Guess I better find out...
        Last edited by sampojo; 06-06-2013, 01:10 AM.
        Up, Up and Away

        Comment


        • It's coming along. I'm up to coil #20.


          Comment


          • Good Job.

            Great job Machine ,looks great, the higher resistance of your coil pairs should be interesting, testing.

            I believe you are right about your 9000 RPM run burning your coils, i would be quite certain, that you achieved a resonate point, with extra energy incoming.

            It will be Great to see it up and running again.

            Regards Cornboy.

            Comment


            • That's gonna be an awesome "Machine Alive"...

              Originally posted by machinealive View Post
              It's coming along. I'm up to coil #20.


              Hey Machine,

              I love the 0.7 ohms per Pairs...remember as they "warm up" resistance increases...so that's perfect friend!...they may end up in like 0.8-1.0 ohms when top operating temperatures prevail...

              Yeah, looking forward to see that Beast sequenced pulsed by the Arduino-Monster Pulsers!!

              You are gonna love it even more.

              Regards


              Ufopolitics
              Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

              Comment


              • I finished the rotor, want to see? Now I have to fix drivers, and spin this baby.



                It's a rainy day, and all my chores are finished, so I have 2 days to play. Hopefully, I'll will start testing tonight.

                Machinalive

                Comment


                • Machine,

                  Your winding looks really nice, neat and tight! I see you have red tape on the comms. Did you epoxy your motor? How many hours did it take to wind it this time?

                  Looking forward to your testing. Keep hammering along, buddy.
                  Last edited by Midaztouch; 06-09-2013, 12:26 AM.

                  Comment


                  • N&t @

                    That's a very neat and lively looking Spiral you have there Machine, good job!!.

                    Regards Cornboy.

                    Comment


                    • The kids left me alone long enough to get the motor assembled, and all 4 drivers are working.
                      I ran each gate, one at a time, with 24 v dc, not pulsed.

                      ---------- RPM.. AMPS
                      GATE#1. 1074. 9.8
                      GATE#2. 1230. 7.8
                      GATE#3. 1130. 8.6
                      GATE#4. 1314. 7.2

                      Notice gates 1 and 3 draw higher amps and less rpm. They have been my main input brushes, with #1 the most used. Brushes must be started to degenerate already, slightly. I'm going to check coil #1 on all 4 gates to see difference in ohms. No biggie.
                      I'll hook up 12 v and try pulsing tonight. Down to last few fets, really hoping it was just the motor that cause fets to fry.

                      @UFO

                      I am going to have to someday wind a motor with slightly less then four ohms/coil, so they would be just less then 1 ohm with 4 in parallel, I gotta see. Maybe we could get back to one switch, it would be same copper mass. If amps stayed low.

                      @ midaztouch
                      I used a clear spray epoxy, to just secure the wires, in case there is another accident. I used a red epoxy spray resin to touch up rotor. After that picture above, I sanded the comms a little on the lathe.
                      I seem to get 2-3 coils/hr, but one screw up, and its a long hr/coil. It a 12-14 hr job, not counting cutting wedges, setting up, assembling motor.
                      If I do have to do another rewind, I may try getting coils pre wound, and sliding into place, if that worked, production time would go way down.

                      @ cornboy
                      Thanks cornboy, I want to ask if you were going to try your stators/or just one pair, wired in series with complementary brushes, like the Russian dudes. I really want to build a wound stator frame and put one of these rotors in it, hooked up in series.

                      Machine

                      Comment


                      • Easy to swap.

                        Hey Machine, great to see you up and running.

                        On the MAG3 build, i will test every combination possible, so when it comes time, just ask, if you have any ideas you would like to see tested.

                        The stators will be terminated to insulated screw fittings on outside of motor, so it will be easy to change everything.

                        It wouldn't be to hard to have UFO design a laminated stator system to fit inside a standard DIA aluminum pipe housing, to suit the imperial rotor, the rest would be easy, including adjustable output brushes. (He's Really GOOD at that stuff you know.)

                        Just for an idea of price, the stator laminations for MAG3 were $1.00 each, but i needed 600 of them, because cores are 200mm long, the imperial would require a lot less than that.

                        The imperial rotor and comms etc are cheap as, in relative terms.

                        Hope to see you pulse that beast soon.

                        Regards Cornboy.

                        PS. Which Russan dudes?
                        Last edited by Cornboy 555; 06-09-2013, 02:38 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by machinealive View Post
                          The kids left me alone long enough to get the motor assembled, and all 4 drivers are working.
                          I ran each gate, one at a time, with 24 v dc, not pulsed.

                          ---------- RPM.. AMPS
                          GATE#1. 1074. 9.8
                          GATE#2. 1230. 7.8
                          GATE#3. 1130. 8.6
                          GATE#4. 1314. 7.2

                          Notice gates 1 and 3 draw higher amps and less rpm. They have been my main input brushes, with #1 the most used. Brushes must be started to degenerate already, slightly. I'm going to check coil #1 on all 4 gates to see difference in ohms. No biggie.
                          I'll hook up 12 v and try pulsing tonight. Down to last few fets, really hoping it was just the motor that cause fets to fry.

                          @UFO

                          I am going to have to someday wind a motor with slightly less then four ohms/coil, so they would be just less then 1 ohm with 4 in parallel, I gotta see. Maybe we could get back to one switch, it would be same copper mass. If amps stayed low.

                          @ midaztouch
                          I used a clear spray epoxy, to just secure the wires, in case there is another accident. I used a red epoxy spray resin to touch up rotor. After that picture above, I sanded the comms a little on the lathe.
                          I seem to get 2-3 coils/hr, but one screw up, and its a long hr/coil. It a 12-14 hr job, not counting cutting wedges, setting up, assembling motor.
                          If I do have to do another rewind, I may try getting coils pre wound, and sliding into place, if that worked, production time would go way down.

                          @ cornboy
                          Thanks cornboy, I want to ask if you were going to try your stators/or just one pair, wired in series with complementary brushes, like the Russian dudes. I really want to build a wound stator frame and put one of these rotors in it, hooked up in series.

                          Machine

                          Hello Machine,

                          That's great you've got her running so fast!!

                          You should check Gates 1 and 3 spring pressure...maybe cause of so much use...heat fatigued spring steel...
                          also measure brush sizes...make sure they are all equal.

                          And try "optimizing" the Timing there...you should do a bit higher RPM's at 24V...

                          But no matter what...your amperage is beautifully low...

                          Before you pulse it with Monsters...I would first try to get all gates as close as possible...to avoid accidents with FET's...


                          Regards and good luck and great testing my friend!!



                          Ufopolitics
                          Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                          Comment


                          • Governor Essential for basic prime mover/generator combo?

                            Dana, et al.

                            Originally posted by prochiro View Post
                            Hello All
                            In the past there has been much talk about which Arduino and now even another choice from outside Arduino that also looks good. We have a saying that goes(You don't always get more for paying more). Specific Arduino boards may cost more but they do more that you know. In the case of what I am doing, working on the Governor, I see that (interrupts) is a vary important thing.Now what a interrupt is lets say that we are using the Quad Monster just as we are doing currently. Now we want to add the ability to govern the RPM to keep 60 HZ in the generator at all times. This is not a hard addition but but if we want to keep up P1 ----P24 pulses at an exact rate, this takes micro-controller time. When we let on or off a load from generator, that causes the need to make adjustments in RPM to change duty cycle. This sensing also takes time from micro-controller and the two can not use the same microseconds of time. Arduino has given us the interrupt. It is a pin location that simply operates aside of the normal P1----P24 pulse time. The future governor will take two of the interrupts at minimum and would better do with three. We are maxed out at this point because of this info from Arduino. This is also not using the LCD also which is handy.

                            "Most Arduino boards have two external interrupts: numbers 0 (on digital pin 2) and 1 (on digital pin 3). The Arduino Mega 2560 has an additional four: numbers 2 (pin 21), 3 (pin 20), 4 (pin 19), and 5 (pin 18).

                            Boardint.0int.1int.2int.3int.4int.5 Uno, Ethernet23 Mega25602321201918 Leonardo32017 Due(see below) The Arduino Due board has powerful interrupt capabilities that allows you to attach an interrupt function on all available pins. You can directly specify the pin number in attachInterrupt()."


                            Now what this comes down to is we can do what we want to do with the Imperial up to and including the governor but that's it using two interrupts. To read temp, volts, current, and more we need at least one more interrupt for each of these even if we use a second Arduino to do the sensing for the first.
                            When choosing an Arduino or other controller, PLEASE take into account the number of Interrupts available.
                            Yes there are internal interrupts as well but so complicated and not exactly do what we want as these are canned interrupts for specific things.

                            Dana
                            \
                            Hi Dana, first I heard about the idea of a governor. Yes it could be a very important and useful advancement. However on small end machines say used to supplement grid power, I was thinking in the back of my mind that this machine should just run flat out, and when the generator load started dragging the rpm below the optimal, it would of course, reduce loading and the rpm would eventually stabilize. So a first version without a governor could be very feasible? Of course I am not an authority on generator head performance and can only infer it from something I may have read that Ufo posted somewhere about its performance.
                            Last edited by sampojo; 06-09-2013, 05:18 PM.
                            Up, Up and Away

                            Comment


                            • Hi friends,
                              Yes, we will get a PID gouverner with Arduino. There is a SW library available and it consumes not much ÁP power. I had a glance to this lib and was amazed how many exceptions they cover. I did not knew thy exist. There is a roule of thumb that 80% of code covers exeptions and 20% covers the function expected.
                              The major implication is to get the correct parameter for tuning. Hence we need to know our system under test.
                              My opinion is still to start with simple control like I suggsted recently. This will not inhibit any chance to get a governer industrial grade!


                              BTW: Just leaving vor vacation - 2 weeks in high Alps - some of you might remember our discussion last year.

                              JS
                              Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.

                              Comment


                              • Hi folks

                                I tried running new motor, pulsed, 12 v. I get one loop, then arduino resets. Does not spin. I will have to recheck the fets. Has anyone else had this happen, Dana, hitby? It ran the lights in sequence fine, but not motor.
                                Leaving for a few hrs, when I get home I'll check everything, I was tired last night.

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