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  • Hello Dear John

    Originally posted by JohnStone View Post
    Hi All,
    here you are! I measured in stall mode: torque [Nm] vs. sweep angle [°] for a single coil pair.


    0 degeree is where the bisector of north magnet and bisector of coil pair match. The odd figures for degrees originate from the measurement jig. (small chain wound around a pulley / 16 chain links correspond to 90°])

    Discussion of results:
    1. Magnets show no homegeneous field over their pole area. The interference between the armature poles passing and the noth magent can be seen in the graph by different amplitudes.
    2. The active area is not symmetrical around the 0 degree area. The area before matching bisectors is grater than after the match point (0°) (-45° ... +33°) Ufo's comments do not match with these values measured. This might so because of additional interactions with south pole of stator.
    3. These results refer to one single coil pair. In real operation there are two coil pairs active (three for very short time) at same time. Another measurement is necesary in order to evaluate exact position of the brushes.
    4. These results may be different if the generator section being active at same time.


    Official lab notes will be posted soon.
    JohnS


    Hello Dear John,

    It is the way to go...TO FIRST Concentrate in just ONE Pair, as P-1 to get timing correct..."The rest of Pairs WILL follow up"

    I Realize NOW, that you are referring to the Bisector from PAIR P-1, and NOT the Bisector for each Individual Coil in the Pair, like I have displayed in my previous explanation of your diagram. Now, the PAIR BISECTOR is just a DEAD MAGNETIC POINT.
    We could use it "AS REFERENCE POINT ONLY" but in "Actual Response" related to Motor behavior it will do absolutely NADA. As it will "Not Exist" in some other Designs like the Pentagons, Star of David or the Three Single Poles...
    The Right Way of looking at this, as also to make everyone understand it right...is referring to EACH COIL BISECTOR IN THE PAIR.
    As it will also apply to ALL MY DESIGNS, and not just to the "P-Series".

    I want You to understand this, before proceeding...

    Now, every time I show a Wiring Diagram for specific poles configurations Armature is Always Set at a "Balanced/Neutral Timing", meaning, we could rotate that motor either CW or CCW, by just reversing Input Polarity and obtain same results both ways. But, I never said that was the strongest set up for motor performance.
    For best "Fine tuning" of performance we MUST FIRST decide our Motor MAIN Operational Direction to test it.

    Now, let's say we want motor to rotate CW (Like it is set up in this drawings). "Pair P-1 Bisector" is at Zero Degree aligned to North Stator Bisector (Balanced/Neutral Timing). Now IF We want Motor to go faster and heavier torque, while keeping same CW Direction, then we should move P-1 Bisector towards the Minus Degrees, by moving brushes CCW in order to "meet" commutator element BEFORE reaching the Zero Degrees.

    Now, let me explain same thing but going by Clock Timing...

    Then let's say, the PAIR P-1 Bisector and North Stator Bisector are aligned EXACTLY at 9 O'clock (Zero Degrees right?)...Then to Increase torque We must move towards 8 O'clock or even 7 O'clock...as long as we DO NOT PASS 9 O'clock WITH the North Coil Bisector in P-1

    In my previous comment you have cited I wrote:

    I got here your drawing that I have added the Bisectors that You MUST consider in order to understand this Tech.
    I have displayed the North and South Coils Angles with an arrow limiting their scope, as well as their respective Bisectors.
    Also have displayed the North Stator Bisector (Magenta).
    Now the closer that you Fire the North Rotor Coil Bisector to the Stator Bisector-At the Start of Commutator Element sweep-The More Torque as throw out range gain (Your Machine would have then more Speed and torque)-... As you would be also approaching South Rotor Bisector to South Stator Bisector...Your timing adjustment will be based MAINLY on Repulsions Interactions here.
    See John, we had this kind of confused... because we were referring to two different Bisectors...

    You were going by the PAIR BISECTOR, which is just the Intersection of both Coils in the Pair..That point-area is actually a DEAD MAGNETIC POINT, so we could use it...just for "reference point" to whole Pair, to arrange timing...but ACTUALLY, who do all the REAL Work related to Real Magnetic Interactions...are the TWO Individual Coil Bisectors in the Pair, as their positioning to the Stators Bisectors

    Therefore Your Graphic makes perfect sense to Me, as also My previous post-description you have cited.

    In Graphic you have:

    1) At -11.25 degrees delivers a High Torque of 0.30 (That is setting P-1 Bisector around eight O'clock)
    2)While when it goes Zero Degrees it collapses to @ 0.23 (Balanced Neutral/Timing)
    3) Then at +11.25 Degrees it goes Up again @0.28 Nm (Here Motor is being aligned MAINLY on Attraction Mode, since SOUTH COIL BISECTOR is closer to NORTH STATOR BISECTOR, and NORTH COIL BISECTOR is further away from N-Stator Bisector.

    So, let me know, John...If now you understand my explanation...


    Thanks and regards


    Ufopolitics
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 10-06-2012, 10:43 PM.
    Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

    Comment


    • wow that took hours

      i can't say i'd like to repeat the stripping of another of these rotors but unfortunately i think its quite likely
      the commutator was entirely free to rotate on the shaft with only the coil wires holding it in position
      stator coils are 0.4 ohm each and 0.8 ohm for the pair ... i hope this will be workable

      Comment


      • Perfect!

        Originally posted by JohnStone View Post
        Now we have additional data with two coil pairs:

        The active area shifts to positive angles. But the maximum torque lives within +-33 degree.

        IMPORTANT:
        Theses measurements refer to static behaviour of the motor only - not dynamic. It is just a narrow view to just one property of this motor.
        The torque generation by the colapsing magnetic field was not accounted here. This happens way after matching bisectors and adds there its torque.

        Hello John,
        But the maximum torque lives within +-33 degree.
        YES, That is perfect!

        1) Up to -33 Degrees Range from Zero (9 O'clock) the North Coil Bisector from Pair is closer to North Stator Bisector.. Here We are using the Main Forces from Repulsion between the two North Magnetic Fields


        2)Up to +33 Degrees from Zero, "P-1 Bisector" will be around Ten(10) to Eleven(11) O'clock, Then P-1 South Coil Bisector will be the one Closer to North Stator Bisector. Here We are using the Main Forces from Attraction between the North Stator Magnetic Field, and the P-1 South Coil Magnetic Field

        Now, since You are energizing two Pairs at same time, in order to do that Input Brushes are contacting the two commutator elements, then P-1/P-2 are BOTH projecting their Magnetic Fields towards Stator (or like Parallel Inductors Energized)
        Then P-1/P-2 Together configure a Dual Pattern Magnetic Field, stronger, BUT with Dual Bisectors per each North-South Set of Coils, a Bit Off Alignment since in design they are overlapping by one pole displacement...This fact creates a Higher Torque Gain towards Zero Degree Point at Graphic, and referring to the "Pair Bisectors Positioning" then P-1 Bisector will be above Zero º, as P-2 Bisector would be below Zero º.


        Regards


        Ufopolitics
        Last edited by Ufopolitics; 10-07-2012, 12:13 AM.
        Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

        Comment


        • Hello Seth
          You explained the matter perfect and understandable Thank you for your help. So far you explained I had understud.What confused me is that: The out put + and input – are together wired (below in the Picture of UFO) Because of that I had tried some wiring samples.
          1-Has this wiring purpose that the CEMF is added to feeding power ?
          2- What you mentioned about angle ;I think you mean the angle between stators dead center line and brushes center line is it correct?
          Kind regards
          selnet
          Attached Files

          Comment


          • Rotor

            Hello all!
            Did i quite understand if i tough i need 2 same motor to take the colector and brush of one and put on the other motor rotor?
            Sorry for my poor english!
            I want to replicate your great asymetric motor with cordless drill 3 pole motor...
            Thank's for your help!

            Did anyone have made a pdf of all the principale tips of this thread?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by selnet View Post
              Hello Seth
              You explained the matter perfect and understandable Thank you for your help. So far you explained I had understud.What confused me is that: The out put + and input – are together wired (below in the Picture of UFO) Because of that I had tried some wiring samples.
              1-Has this wiring purpose that the CEMF is added to feeding power ?
              2- What you mentioned about angle ;I think you mean the angle between stators dead center line and brushes center line is it correct?
              Kind regards
              selnet
              i think in that picture what it is showing in the voltage available from the generator brushes being added to the battery voltage. i don't think there is necesserily battery current flowing through the coils when they are in generating phase.
              the angles i talk about are the angles between the stator magnetic fields and the rotor magnetic fields.
              the brushes as a general rule are not necesserily representative of the magnetic field angles as the brushes depend entirely on exactly how one has wired the rotor coils up to the commutator which cn be done all sorts of ways.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wistiti View Post
                Hello all!
                Did i quite understand if i tough i need 2 same motor to take the colector and brush of one and put on the other motor rotor?
                Sorry for my poor english!
                I want to replicate your great asymetric motor with cordless drill 3 pole motor...
                Thank's for your help!

                Did anyone have made a pdf of all the principale tips of this thread?
                hi Wistiti ... yes exactly...each of Ufopolitics designs have two commutators and two set of brushes.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Wistiti View Post
                  Hello all!
                  Did i quite understand if i tough i need 2 same motor to take the colector and brush of one and put on the other motor rotor?
                  Sorry for my poor english!
                  I want to replicate your great asymetric motor with cordless drill 3 pole motor...
                  Thank's for your help!

                  Did anyone have made a pdf of all the principale tips of this thread?
                  WELCOME Wistiti in our community!!!!!!
                  Yes well you are correct. One DC motor with an identical commutator mouted on the other side of the armature.
                  You can take it from an other motor or as spare part if available.
                  At same time you need a second brush holder with brushes.
                  There are other implications:
                  • The shaft needs to be long enough for 2nd commutator.
                  • The 2nd brush holder needs to fit to the other side of the housing.
                  • The housing needs to be long enough in order to suppert the 2nd brush holder.
                  • The pole count of the armature shall corespond to any of UFOs suggestions. i.e. 8 poles is not recommended

                  You need to take care to not destroy a commutator if you pull it off the shaft. I i.e was successful by clamping the armature in vice and drive the shaft carefully from teh commutator side - through the commutator up to teh point where the commutator slips off the shaft.
                  If you want to get more help you should post what size or type of motor you have. If you read teh thread from teh beginning (strongly recommended) then you will find all advice required because we discussed plenty of motor types and issues related.
                  rgds
                  JohnS
                  Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.

                  Comment




                  • Thank my freinds for your devotion!
                    It's always a plesure to see so many people happy to help freely anyone! I realy think the selfish mind its our biggest planet probleme.... Thank's to all again!
                    Now enuf talking... Let's get to work and try to replicate and understand in real!!!

                    Janick

                    Comment


                    • Hello Selnet

                      Originally posted by selnet View Post
                      Hello Seth
                      You explained the matter perfect and understandable Thank you for your help. So far you explained I had understud.What confused me is that: The out put + and input – are together wired (below in the Picture of UFO) Because of that I had tried some wiring samples.
                      1-Has this wiring purpose that the CEMF is added to feeding power ?
                      2- What you mentioned about angle ;I think you mean the angle between stators dead center line and brushes center line is it correct?
                      Kind regards
                      selnet

                      Hello Selnet,

                      That Diagram was based on a previous Motor we used here from a local U.S Store (Radio Shack) to modify into an Asymmetric Machine.

                      [IMG][/IMG]

                      That Motor once we convert it, the Inputs/Output are in DIAGONAL , NOT Positive In, Negative In in ONE SIDE...Understand?

                      However, the Circuit You have displayed, applies to ALL other Asymmetric Machines. Whether they have DIAGONAL or LINEAR ALIGNED Terminals...

                      1-Has this wiring purpose that the CEMF is added to feeding power ?
                      There is absolutely NO C EMF HERE.
                      I have repeated to exhaustion, that Symmetrical Systems CREATE BY FORCING REVERSAL OF ROTOR COILS THE "FAKE, FALSE" C EMF or Back EMF.
                      My Machines DO NOT FORCE REVERSE COILS at INPUT.
                      My Machines REVERSE VOLTAGE/MAGNETIC POLARITY NATURALLY AND ONLY AT OUTPUT (GENERATOR STAGE)

                      That Diagram of Mine You have displayed, shows the TOTAL ARMATURE VOLTAGE (Effective Voltage=Ev), by Adding in SERIES INPUT PLUS OUTPUT.
                      It Means that is the Total Operating Voltage that our Armature is running with...or the Summation of Input Plus Output.

                      My Machines NEVER REVERSE INPUT OF COILS to achieve rotation, They just SWITCH ON-OFF COILS AT INPUT.

                      Hope you understand better now...


                      Cheers


                      Ufopolitics
                      Last edited by Ufopolitics; 10-07-2012, 01:41 PM.
                      Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                      Comment


                      • Asymmetric Universal Motors

                        Hello to All,

                        I believe We need to define and expand some concepts about Universal Motors...

                        Many of Us here are using Universal Motors to convert them into Asymmetrical Machines.

                        A Universal Motor does NOT have Permanent Magnets at Stators, BUT INSTEAD, They have Wound Fields as a Laminated Frame Housing.

                        Here is a Pic from Wikipedia:

                        [IMG][/IMG]

                        We can find them in Vacuum Cleaners, AC Tools like Drills, Dremel Tools, Washers, and many other home appliances...like blenders, Stirrers etc...

                        Members Prochiro and John Stone are already running Asymmetrically Converted Machines from this type of Motors with DC.

                        There are Mainly Three Ways to Connect Stators with Input Brushes in the ORIGINAL SYMMETRIC UNIVERSAL MOTORS...They are:

                        1:Series Connection, where Stators are connected in series between them and also between brushes...ALL in series there.
                        2:Parallel Connection, Where Stators are connected in Series, and both stator terminals in Parallel with Brushes Input.
                        3:Compound Connect, where is a Combination of Series-Parallel.

                        Now, when converting ARMATURE to an Asymmetrical one, I have suggested to use Number Two Connection, or Parallel Stator to Brushes and Series between the Two Stator Fields...Why?...Simple, less Total Resistance, Less Heating, More Power and more Speed.


                        Must of ALL OF THE ABOVE, I have explained here before...

                        What I HAVE NOT Explained yet...is that this Universal Motors, after converting their Armatures to Asymmetrical Mode, They could also run with AC Currents.

                        Then We have Asymmetrical Universal Machines...That could run with AC or DC.

                        BUT, VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE HERE, PLEASE READ CAREFULLY:

                        DO NOT ATTEMPT TO HOOK AN ASYMMETRIC WOUNDED ROTOR DIRECTLY TO A 120 or 240 Volts WALL OUTLET!!

                        WE MUST FEED THE AC FROM A DOWNGRADE TRANSFORMER WITHOUT DIODE BRIDGE RECTIFIER, THAT WILL BRING DOWN VOLTAGE TO -AT LEAST- 30-24-12 AC VOLTS...THEN TEST IT!!

                        I STRONGLY SUGGEST THAT ANYONE MAKING THIS TESTS TAKES EXTREME PRECAUTIONS WHEN IT COMES TO MANIPULATING THE HIGHER VOLTAGE AC SIDE FROM TRANSFORMER, AND IF YOU ARE NOT EXPERIENCED WITH AC ELECTRICITY HANDLING, PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROCEED WITH THIS TESTS!!

                        I will suggest that ONLY John Stone and Prochiro (Dana) that have build this Models to test them like I have mentioned above.

                        I HAVE DONE, PERFORMED SUCCESSFULLY... this mode of Operation EVEN with the FIBERGLASS STATOR and They Run SMOOTHER than with Pulsed DC...

                        If You have a Factory Build Power Source that will deliver LOW VOLTAGE AC (12/24/36) it will be the perfect set up to test, since the High Voltage AC will be already made from Factory and there will be much less risks.

                        We need Transformer to Output somewhere in the range of 10 to 15 Amps at Output Voltages (Secondaries)
                        Radio Shack Transformers WILL NOT WORK, as they only deliver 2A MAX.



                        So Here... We are "breaking" the Limitations of Asymmetrical Models just to DC Currents...but also to AC.


                        We have NOW, an ASYMMETRICAL UNIVERSAL MACHINE


                        I can not make videos as of now...or Pictures-Diagrams, as I am extremely busy...but I will eventually.


                        Regards


                        Ufopolitics
                        Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
                          ......
                          I will suggest that ONLY John Stone and Prochiro (Dana) that have build this Models to test them like I have mentioned above. ...
                          .....
                          Hi UFO,
                          thanks for those very clear words!
                          I own a variable PSU with DC and AC outputs - secure isolation to mains included. Without such a PSU universal motors are difficult to handle. I will go with DC only first -> 0-60V / 20A. And I will measure the currents into stator separately because compared to PM magnets there are avoidable losses.

                          Regarding your comments related to my measurements:
                          Yea, you are right - my interpretation of bisectors is confusing! I vote to be guilty.
                          I will correct it in my lab note.
                          Due to the fact that two of my lab connectors were faulty I will take new measurements in order to get real torque values.
                          JohnS
                          Last edited by JohnStone; 10-07-2012, 08:24 PM.
                          Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.

                          Comment


                          • Hello UFO
                            Thanks for your explaning and reply .In the meantime I rewound my rotor again with 0,35mm wire and each pair coil 32 turns also in every rotor split 128 turns .Every pair coil has 1,6 Ohm resistance. ( between two commutator leads) Partially I solved the high current issue ;but now at 12 Volts the torq is insufficient and low speed rotation.I think it needs higher voltage I dont know if I started with suitable scrap parts ?.I watched the video of ” min2oly” De-Witched UFO Motor - YouTube He succeeded it with a very small toy motor with three poles ,small amps, torq, and high speed rotation. I admit that I envy his success. But I dont give up easly.Now I think to start either with the Asymmetric Universal motor or with a 3 pole small motor like machinealive1 What would you suggest for start.? Thanks in advance for guiding
                            selnet
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by selnet; 10-07-2012, 07:05 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by selnet View Post
                              ...12 Volts the torq is insufficient and low speed rotation...
                              Hi Selnet,
                              same was my problem until I checked where the north poles were: stator, one coil pair. Your motor wants to turn but is prevented by a problem.
                              • Glue a magnet on a toothpick mark the north side / hold the tooth pick between your fingers and let the magnet rotate
                              • Check the stator poles where the north side point to and mark it
                              • Check all coil pairs of your armature N and S
                              • Mark the electrical + side on one brush segment conforming your test before
                              • Mark the corresponding N and S poles belonging to this marked commutator segment
                              • Get UFO's diagram and assemble the motor in the very same way UFO drew his diagram for your motor
                              • connect + on the brush sitting on your + marked commutator segment
                              • connect - on the opposite brush

                              JohnS
                              Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.

                              Comment


                              • Hello Johnstone
                                I disassamble the motor now and do all what you proposed.Thank you
                                selnet

                                Comment

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