My Asymmetric Electrodynamic Machines

[sampojo]

RE: Imperial asym at Imperial dyno; Truly Exciting

what will be the reaction of this corporation when they see you using all their components and beating the snot out of all their configurations?

So all balanced at Imperial's subcontractor I assume?

Hows your Monster controller? Any plans to introduce it? That would be a real eye-opener for the engineering department!

I am on the edge of my seat!

you da man Midaz!!!

[Midaztouch]

Motor is on the Dyno test bench

@Team

Our motor is at Imperial. As soon as they get the negatives and positives in order, the testing will begin!

Here is the E-mail I sent Imperial. If I've made any mistakes or missing something please let me know.

.......
Imperial ,

The UFO motor looks good on your bench. Time to explore what our motor is capable of doing in its raw prototype stage.

1.) There are 4 channels/pairs of negative and positive (P1, P8, P15 & P22). Each "Pair" is independent from each other. Let's check for the neg and pos for each pair. Start with P1 then P8... end with P22. Step 1 establishes the Negative & Positive and that each pair is independent.

*Please note the rotation of the shaft. This motor is set up to spin counter clockwise.*

2.) Pair Grouping of P1, P8, P15 & P22.
The groups are set at 180 degrees. Group 1(P1 & P15)/inputs ....Group 2(P8 & P22)/outputs

Group 1 is ran in parallel. Group 2 can be run in series or parallel.(series=Eco Mode, parallel = full power)

3.) Testing amps, volts, rpms, torque, HP & efficiency. There are many combinations for testing.

A.) One channel/pair testing if for emergency. For example, damage to the motor that causes three channels to malfunction.
Will there be enough power to make a safe emergency stop or get to a service area for assistance?

B.) One group testing independently; Group 1(P1 & P15)/inputs ....Group 2(P8 & P22)/outputs
Can the motor run efficiently?
Is the motor running smoothly during testing?
Is the non excited group producing a current?

C.) Both groups together; Group 1(P1 & P15)/inputs in PARALLEL ...Group 2(P8 & P22)/outputs in SERIES/Eco Mode
a.) Both groups excited simultaneously
b.) adding groups. First excite group 1 then "add" group 2(touch and take off repeat)

Does group 2 have a generator effect?
What's the rpm and torque?
Charge back the power supply capability?
When adding, does the amperes decrease?
When adding, does the rpm increase?
Efficiency?

D.) Both groups is Parallel. Full power
a.) Both groups excited simultaneously
b.) adding groups. First excite group 1 then "add" group 2(touch and take off repeat)

When adding, does the amperes decrease?
When adding, does the rpm increase?
Effeciency?

E.) ADD all channels/pairs one at a time.
"Adding" will help you to find peak performance for firing sequence.




I know you and your team will have your own questions and tests. What I've stated above is just a good starting point. Throw your best at the motor and see what it can do? If damage happens, don't feel bad, we can build another one

.... The quad pulser/controller will take you to a new level of efficiency and performance for the Ufo motor.... That's later

Keep it Clean and Green
Midaz

[RandyFL]

DisAssembly and Assembly of R/S toy ( Motor )

Hello All,
I have enjoyed looking at this place from the outside...
Is there a Disassembly and Assembly pdf or video of the radio shack motor...
Do I need a laser cutter or a hack saw or dremel ( tools )...

Oh btw hows the weather where you're at...

Love and peace and Namaste
the other Randy

[µHenry]

Hi Cornboy

@Cornboy,
thanks for anwering. The Imperial is definitely on the wishlist, and I sincerely hope they keep the UFO kit available for some time as my household can ill-miss the 500 or so euros at the moment (shipping to the EUSSR comes at a price I gather). But I eventually will go that route,I'd like to. I've seen most vids I think. Very nice most of them, and very helpful/instructive. Myself I think wants to go the slow route, caminando, to take in the scenery as it were. Much to learn and experience, vou see, I'm new at this game. I see you old hands and very much respect and envy your experience, insights and craftmanship. I was like that as a kid, repairing tellies by 12. Then life got the better of me and I kinda buried the play/experiment side of me. This forum reawakened something in me,so, lots of catching up to do.
As of now I only tackled a few crappy toy 3 poles, so my conception of more exotic windings is still hazy. My first goal for real use (down the line would be a modest 250W motor. Low RPM high torque preferably for bicycle. Any tips and leads more than welcome.
Regards. µH

[Cornboy 555]

Hi there,
went to the only motorshop in the area. They have double coated magnetwire. Comes in 20kg reels. Bit much methinks. They don't do brushed DC no more. Out of fashion they say. They know of no brand which sells bare rotors or separate commutators. So this forum and internet at large will be my only resource I guess, since recycling is a big thing here right now and dumpster diving became all but impossible .
Any chance of doing a transformation with a DCSM or IPM? These are available. I've read here about automotive motors. Does anyone know about the right european brands to look for? (eg long shafts etc?)
Thanks.

Hello uHenry, welcome here, after being with UFO's threads from day one, if you are looking for the best value for money replication, that can have a practical use down stream, you won't find better than the UFO Imperial kit.

This kit includes a bare, brand new rotor ready to wind and two new commutators, along with everything you will require.

You normally can't even buy a rotor for the price of the whole kit.

Others here that have these kits can give you contact details.

Regards Cornboy.

PS. UFO has made excellent videos on how to wind and build the Imperial on his utube chanel, and his website.

[µHenry]

Hi there,
went to the only motorshop in the area. They have double coated magnetwire. Comes in 20kg reels. Bit much methinks. They don't do brushed DC no more. Out of fashion they say. They know of no brand which sells bare rotors or separate commutators. So this forum and internet at large will be my only resource I guess, since recycling is a big thing here right now and dumpster diving became all but impossible .
Any chance of doing a transformation with a DCSM or IPM? These are available. I've read here about automotive motors. Does anyone know about the right european brands to look for? (eg long shafts etc?)
Thanks.

[sampojo]

Making some progress on Baldor commutators

Sorry pics soon. At intermediate state, 75% of wires on commutator successfully brazed. Put the commutator in a pan of water so it would not overheat. used an acetylene torch. Micro butane not up to the task with wired attached to big-heat sink comm.

Stripping all insulation a slow job on the 80 wires. To be absolutely sure it was all gone on a wire I ended up tinning them with the verbotten (forbidden, by UFO!!) solder. I found that it acted like flux during the higher temp brazing process, and alloyed to probably make a slightly lower temp melting point so I have less of a chance to burn my commutator hopefully. I did not want to chance carbonized insulation interfering with the weld process. After I apply connectors next, that will be the last time heat will have to be applied to the commutator as it becomes completely reusable (Waiting for when I convert the Baldor into a 4 stator, or build a double long generator, )

I had to develop a technique for inserting new wires as one commutator segment that had lost its wires during my haphazard removal process when I thought I was going to dremmel out all wires and redo the slots. I doubled up on the 19ga original wire about 1", brazed it together to make it a little wider and flatter to completely fill the slot after the last manufacturer's piece was removed. I left the wide rounded tip stick out on the surface on the slot. and then I hit it with a flat nosed punch to simulate the manufacturer's process. The protruding copper head of the new doubled wire compressed tightly on one end and the gaps closed up nicely the entire length. Victory!

back to nursing my hips big snow storm coming New Jersey

[µHenry]

muzings on gear

Hi there,
it works to get the pics up, phew...
so there you go. In this pic the small rotor in front is a 22p22c2b2s universal from a cyclone vacuum cleaner. 1800W zillion RPM like. I"m buggered if I can get the windings off of it. Sealed plastic frame of sorts, wedges and all. Any ideas? Can hardly put it in the chimney, can I? Thought it might be interesting, maybe using 21 poles in 7 formation and one pole wired short upon itself for improved selfstarting or such.
Who knows if I don't try it?
The other one, the biggy is some AEG universal with nice brushes 18p18c2b2s from a washing machine. 2kW? The thing even comes equiped with a sensorcoil and had some ferrite ring or magnet on the shaft, no doubt for rpm control. Can I use this?
The poles being angled, non aligned with rotoraxis, can do or no go for UFO style conversion?
Of course I'll have to tackle the bearings and such...I'm lousy at these things: I ruined the shaft of the small one trying to dislodge the bearing.
Some help from a machine shop is in order here if I'm serious about it all. But the thing looks promising to me. Sturdy. And already unwound! Was easy, this one.
I could pulse it (would have to).
I have one of them old Purple Ray Machines,and was thinking that I could maybe accommodate it as the needed pulser. It's an electrotherapy device from the twenties. Impressively unsafe device with mains all over the thing.
When used, if the violet ray doesn't cure you, the uninevitable electroshocks most surely would. Anyway, that's just me ramblin about...
UFO,Kogs and all, you got me going, thanks. And hello erfinder, glad to see you back on these pages too in such high mood.Thank you too, for adding to the rich high quality of this thread. Wading through it all was enthralling, like a thick and very good book with lots of characters. Definitely worth it. Working on the other UFO threads now. And discovering the rest of the forum. Great job, great place. I love it. Regards to all. µH

[µHenry]

some pics of replication motors

Hi Kogs, thank you for your wise words. You are right of course. So here are some pics I just took. On the left in first one the two conversions. These motors are very small and fiddly to work on. Brushes are flimsy copperfoil.
I rewound the original wire onto them: 185cm of 0.2mm giving 0.6Ohm thereabouts in 60T. CCW Coils connected to opposite commutatortabs.
The original motor draws like 200mA (no load; no idea how much under load)..
Modified I get anything from 250mA no load to beyond 1A at stalling.
Less sparking at brushes, much higher RPM (no measures), some more torque and most of all less heat production (subjective, no measurements).
I am ashamed of the poor craftmanship (that's why I didn't want to publish the pics really, seeing the beautiful realisations you guys are capable off). Tuning is extremely fussy. Short shaftlength reduces further testing possibilities. One of the shafts has been exchanged for a slightly longer one from a defunct shaving device. I attempted coupling them by means of some plastic tube from a pen but shaftlength prevents this. But in the few seconds that I got it working I was able to interconnect them as per UFO graphs.
So next I plan converting the slightly bigger 12V version (shown in pic) when I find a 2.24mm shaft of sufficient length. These have carbon brushes.
Can't seem to find 5 poles around here. So after that I will be forced to deal with 8,12,18or22 pole designs, as that's what's available around here from universal motors. But then I'll have to pulse the stators...so I'll have to make me a pulser...later on. Meanwhile (given correct shafts) I'd like a measurement setup with a bunch of the 12V-ers. They'd have slight variations like bifilar etc. to try to get to the gist of it all before moving on to bigger ones. I am impatient to get big ones going, but I see easily a year of testing small ones as the better option to gain that needed hands on experience and insight. I own an old Tektronix 453 scope so I could dig some deeper and post results and pics.
By the way, does anyone here have access to a Power (Quality) Analyser?
Fluke have nice ones, bet they cost a fortune. Just curious what the results would look like: these analysers are made for the symmetry world. Could we learn something from their results? They might help us tune our motors by showing more of the electrical side of things internally. Just wondering. I know nothing, that much I do.
That'a about it for now.
Hope this works with the pics. Bit convoluted... let's see if we see...

Anyway thanks Kogs,I hope this answers what you asked.
Kind regards. µH

http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...1&d=1391959234
http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...1&d=1391959265
http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...1&d=1391959332

[iankoglin]

G'day uHenry
Nice to have you come here, even though you may not have excellent results it is good to load some pictures so everyone active or just lurking may benefit from what you have achieved or where you may not have so good results remember there is a saying ""every picture is worth a thousand words"" so please borrow a camera and take some pictures post them here and explain exactly what you have done.

Kindest regards Is it Henry

[µHenry]

First contact

Hi UFO et all,
Just a quick message to let you all know that another lurker who found his way to this thread has started replication. I'm new to all this. I converted two motors (starting with four) to assymetry. Small 1$ ones 3V. Interesting to say the least. I'm not into videos and uploading stuff and such, but I can corroborate most of what has been posted here. I will post and upload new findings, measurements etc if I think it will add something usefull or new to the material presented here. If I don't, it's because most has been said and done already and I don't want to add bloat to this amazing thread.
Also, a word of thanks to ALL involved in posting on this thread. I've read through all of it, wading through murk and beauty. Very interesting; the beauty and smallness of the human condition exposed side by side. Quite some characters around here. UFO not in the least. But I understand. Quirky, intelligent people thinking for themselves and interacting...can give quite some sparks. (free energy anyone?) I felt instantly at home kinda.
So keep up the good work. I'll go on with bigger gear and try to make some useful item like reworking a cordless drill or something before trying to make me a good bicycle motor (250W max according to regulations here).
Anyway, big thumbs up to all involved here, early birds and followers.
The machinealives, dadhavs, kogs, sampojos, midaztouchz, prochiros, johnstones etc etc. Awesome!!! Count me in. If I come across something worthwhile I'll let you all know. I'll even learn to make vids and upload them.
Meanwhile, I crawl back into the woodwork following you all from a distance.
Main problem round here is machining. Have to glue cases, have to find shafts etc. I took apart most of the fans, blenders, vacuum cleaners, pumps, hairdryers around the house but no immediate success so far.(have some time cause out of job right now, but no money whatsoever). Will check automotive brushed DCs later on. Keep it up you all! Cheers.

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Sir,

Namaste.

I could find a service provider here who makes circuits. I assigned them the job of making the Driver Circuit. But some components are not readily available here. It seems it takes about a week's time to get them and complete the circuit.

Meanwhile I want to add one more set of brushes to the existing commutators or add another commutator and two sets of brushes and power the stator coil with that. I have enough space on the shaft to mount one more commutator. I want to power the stator and rotor simultaneously. Hope this also amounts to pulsing the stator. But don't know how far this is effective when compared to pulsing the machine with the driver circuit?

And in the meantime, in the last 2 days I got a design ready completely in fiberglass and acrylic.

I made a 3 pole rotor with 85mm dia and 120mm length and one more rotor with the same dia (85mm) and 480mm length with 12 poles - both in fiberglass. I kept a space of 20mm dia in both the rotors, at the centre, for shaft.

I bought an acrylic tube with in inner dia of 90mm with a length of 600mm. I want to use it as stator.

The shaft length is 1 meter and dia is 14 mm and it is a Bright Bar. I want to mount both the rotors on a single shaft.

Hello Kumar,

It would be great if you could put all this text into graphics, CAD's or even a hand sketch...so we get the whole idea of your project...adding some measurements will help as well...

I want to run the 3 pole as motor-generator and let the 12 pole thing be a pure generator. I want to use the design you suggested to Turion - making one-half coil to more number of coils to get better voltages.

Using a Three Pole design as a motor is a good idea...but, about the design I suggested to Turion...I do not think that he ever finished it...at least I never saw it running.

This design was "Hypothetical, Theoretical"...I do not believe it was ever built by other members here.

Commutators also I am making. They will be ready by tomorrow.

I bought Nylon bearings to mount these rotors. The supporting walls ( to hold the bearings) also I am keeping in fiberglass.

Thought of going for a fiber shaft as well. But 14 mm dia shaft was not available. I found 12.5mm and 16mm dia rods. But my turner didn't recommend them as while turning - he is suspecting - it might bend because of its length. So only for shaft I went for Bright Steel.

In case keeping a coupling between these two rotors is ok, then I can replace the shaft also with fiberglass or acrylic, if you recommend to go for a non-metallic shaft.

In such case, only metal in the machine will be copper in windings and commutators and brass in carbon brushes holders.

Tomorrow by noon, everything will be ready for winding sir.

Sounds great Kumar!...waiting to take a look at it soon...

Please guide me regarding the wire gauge in SWG, single or bifilar ( for both rotors and stator) and desired resistance in the windings.

Kumar...please...you make questions on help...without giving me the power source Voltage and Amperage you are planning to use on this motor(s)...?

Ohms Law could help you keep the "Equation Balanced"...as far as resistance for stators...having V and A to be utilized at source...

Stator wire gauge must be finer than rotor, (higher resistance) in order to lower amps/heat, other words, balance "equation"...since Stator Coils will not be "refreshing/switching" between higher number of coils per turn...as Rotor does.

Stators Coils Number= 2?...4?
Rotor Coils= 12?...15?

So, even if you are pulsing them with low voltages...Stator Coils must be of higher resistance than rotor coils.

There is another balance that you must do also Kumar...Magnetic Field Strength balancing between Stators and Rotor Coils...in order to achieve a robust rotation/force (talking about motors though)...it is understood that if you have wound stators...things are more complicated for balancing/testing purposes.

I tried to understand how many strands of coil(19 SWG / 18 AWG) can be put in a single pole of 12-pole rotor. I was able to keep more than 70 strands. And one turn length is coming to one meter.

I got lost here Kumar, strands/turns...what is this?

After you read my previous post from Turion Generator design...you may change your mind...but, anyways...the multiple strands of wire I spoke once here...was dedicated to Motors...not Generators, Kumar...and of course...if you are using so many strands...then, a much finer gauge than 18-19 AWG must be utilized....as it would be impossible to get many number of turns with 18 awg.

Please, do not confuse strands with number of turns...use a "T" for Turns.

About the 3-pole rotor, I didn't try how many strands of wire sit? But can say that 1 pole is at least 3.5 times more in space against 1 pole space of 12-P rotor. So might accommodate about 250 strands ( of 19 SWG / 18 AWG). And one turn is coming to 25 cm in length. So 4 turns are making a meter.

Now, I did get confused here..."How many strands the wire sits"?!...250 strands?... ...OR did You mean TURNS?

Here also till the driver is ready, I want to power the stator and rotors with different commutators.

Hope you will enjoy seeing the machine sir.

Regards and Namaste

Kumar

On a final note Kumar, I see you are using plastics and soft materials for this build...so, am hoping it would be just a Testing Model for demonstration purposes ...and NOT some everyday use application you are going to be using this machines for... right?

And please Kumar...re read/re check your posts before pressing your "Submit Reply" button...Your posts are full of questions Kumar...on machines that are built "from scratch" and for the first time on this Thread...there are parameters missing required to get you right answers...on top of that Kumar, you are trying to make a "Fusion" of Two Machines (Motor and Generator) with a common shaft...plus the Fiberglass Stator Design...resuming here...I believe you did not read a reply I gave to a member here (Shylo)...:

Hello Shylo and thanks,

Shylo, sorry but it is NOT recommended to start on a high end pole motor configuration like a 16 poles, (guessing , cause you did not mentioned it...with Four Stators and Four Brushes) without even building a simple and inexpensive Five Pole miniature motor from Radio Shack or any other place like Gold Mine Motors site.

Once that you Build a Five Pole (P5 SERIES, NOT Single or Dual Pentagon Type) which have extensive material on my site and on this Thread...Then You will get the "Asymmetric Modular Pair Sequencing Basics"...and this experience would be required and fundamental to expand into any P# Series Winding, including a P28 Imperial.

It is very difficult and not guaranteed that you could jump right into a P16 and expect to do it perfectly well the first time...besides, you will be taking very precious time from many experienced and working members in more advanced models at this point...plus filling the thread with already displayed/existing old material.

But, then again, we are all "grown up" here right?......and You could do as you please...besides, everybody is different...you may have a lot of previous experience in winding motors from before...or maybe you are just brilliant in making "something" from scratch...only YOU know your capabilities friend...

Now, Shylo "only" wanted to make an Asymmetric 16 poles permanent magnet motor...just like the one Turion built...NOT such complicated set up like you are building here Kumar...So, mathematically speaking...I will dedicate to you, Kumar, same response as above to Shylo...but elevated to the 10th exponential.

I just can wish you good luck friend.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[ajaya999]

Some questions on pulsing the stator with another commutator

Hi Sir,

Namaste.

I could find a service provider here who makes circuits. I assigned them the job of making the Driver Circuit. But some components are not readily available here. It seems it takes about a week's time to get them and complete the circuit.

Meanwhile I want to add one more set of brushes to the existing commutators or add another commutator and two sets of brushes and power the stator coil with that. I have enough space on the shaft to mount one more commutator. I want to power the stator and rotor simultaneously. Hope this also amounts to pulsing the stator. But don't know how far this is effective when compared to pulsing the machine with the driver circuit?

And in the meantime, in the last 2 days I got a design ready completely in fiberglass and acrylic.

I made a 3 pole rotor with 85mm dia and 120mm length and one more rotor with the same dia (85mm) and 480mm length with 12 poles - both in fiberglass. I kept a space of 20mm dia in both the rotors, at the centre, for shaft.

I bought an acrylic tube with in inner dia of 90mm with a length of 600mm. I want to use it as stator.

The shaft length is 1 meter and dia is 14 mm and it is a Bright Bar. I want to mount both the rotors on a single shaft.

I want to run the 3 pole as motor-generator and let the 12 pole thing be a pure generator. I want to use the design you suggested to Turion - making one-half coil to more number of coils to get better voltages.

Commutators also I am making. They will be ready by tomorrow.

I bought Nylon bearings to mount these rotors. The supporting walls ( to hold the bearings) also I am keeping in fiberglass.

Thought of going for a fiber shaft as well. But 14 mm dia shaft was not available. I found 12.5mm and 16mm dia rods. But my turner didn't recommend them as while turning - he is suspecting - it might bend because of its length. So only for shaft I went for Bright Steel.

In case keeping a coupling between these two rotors is ok, then I can replace the shaft also with fiberglass or acrylic, if you recommend to go for a non-metallic shaft.

In such case, only metal in the machine will be copper in windings and commutators and brass in carbon brushes holders.

Tomorrow by noon, everything will be ready for winding sir.

Please guide me regarding the wire gauge in SWG, single or bifilar ( for both rotors and stator) and desired resistance in the windings. I tried to understand how many strands of coil(19 SWG / 18 AWG) can be put in a single pole of 12-pole rotor. I was able to keep more than 70 strands. And one turn length is coming to one meter.

About the 3-pole rotor, I didn't try how many strands of wire sit? But can say that 1 pole is at least 3.5 times more in space against 1 pole space of 12-P rotor. So might accommodate about 250 strands ( of 19 SWG / 18 AWG). And one turn is coming to 25 cm in length. So 4 turns are making a meter.

Here also till the driver is ready, I want to power the stator and rotors with different commutators.

Hope you will enjoy seeing the machine sir.

Regards and Namaste

Kumar

[Ufopolitics]

@ UFO and Erfinder

Awwww. It's nice to see you two kiss and make up. I almost cried.... Not!
Go get a room!..... And make some motors!

Midaz...You are a very funny guy...

All kidding aside. What did you think about Warren's vids I posted?

Keep it Clean and Green

Midaz

What do I think about Warrensk videos?

I believe Warrensk is gonna end up suing you for Videos Copyright violations...He will get the FBI, CIA and the SWAT Team...all the way to Japan...and put a Levy on your Radiance CBR...

All kidding......I believe they are awesome!, thanks for the links.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Aaron]

moderating

As I don't sense any of the forum's guide lines were infringed, I take this as a silent way to announce a ban, undeserved especially when the thread initiator was welcoming the intervention.

Personally I would have listened to the wise ancestors which have advised: "Do not speak unless you can improve the silence".

Yet, when you say "we'll keep you..." who is there, beside you, to form a "we"?

Regards.

When the moderators receive multiple complaints for certain posts that are said to be disruptive, we usually ask them to stop or move their comments to their own thread.

Erfinder took it upon him/herself to say they won't post here anymore, which looks like it is obvious that he has already been communicated to about this issue by other members that are in this thread. If Erfinder agreed to leave, then it also looks obvious that he/she possibly recognizes that they're not welcome in the thread.

As a moderator, I get all kinds of complaints dealing with this kind of thing and it simply is not possible to go through and read every thread to know the entire context of what is happening. When I do get multiple complaints about the same person in any particular thread, it is practically guaranteed that they shouldn't be in that thread any more and are disrupting it.

Erfinder took it upon himself without any moderator intervention to say he won't post here anymore - when someone says that regardless of what the issues are, then they should honor what they said unless they're being invited back in.

When I say we, there are 3 other moderators besides myself. I'm not the only one here even though some think I make all the decisions here - far from the truth.

There is no such thing as a silent ban so you are taking this the wrong way. If someone is going to be banned, they will simply be banned without playing games.

If Erfinder is invited back or whatever and it looks like he/she is, then great. More times than not, when someone is asked by a moderator to leave a thread it is because the person who started the thread requested it and anyone that starts a discussion on anything has some say in who is considered to be disrupting things or not.

Since Erfinder looks like he/she is welcome here after all, then there is nothing here for me to do.