Use for the Tesla Switch

[ldissing]

[QUOTE=Unlike a load a battery the load on the rectifier will reduce the voltage availible at the bridge and give a good indicator of how much more you can pull. 0 volts you have full load for your rectifier.MAtt[/QUOTE]

I don't understand what you are saying here. Will you please restate or be more specific for me?


Thank you,

L

[Matthew Jones]

Looks like actually the amperage to and accross the battery banks is higher do to the caps. Which would make sense because the caps are and easier load to fill than the batteries would be.
Interesting stuff

I don't understand what you are saying here. Will you please restate or be more specific for me?

When you measure the voltage availible on the bridge rectifier (BR) it will go DOWN as you add loads. Normally a battery will drop but not like the bridge does in a Tesla Switch.
Point being,(And this is just example from my head the numbers act differentk\ly) if you had say a 20 volt availible on the BR and added a 12 volt load, you might drop to 7 -8 volts. You could then add 2, 4 volt loads in addition and the BR would then read of 1-2.
The Voltage is incremental to the load that is on it.
You wouldn't usually see that the case of a power supply or battery. You would see an increase in Amperage from the source to the load but the voltage would remain the same, or slight variation on a battery

You'll find 12 volt lightbulbs don't really take 12 volt. Most I have used (Autobulbs) use about 3volt at 1/2 amp to run.

Its a neat thing to see.
Matt

[Tehnoman]

[..]
You wouldn't usually see that the case of a power supply or battery. You would see an increase in Amperage from the source to the load but the voltage would remain the same, or slight variation on a battery
[..]

Well, in case of a battery, the variation can be in full scale, it means - if load active resistance is very high, voltage on the battery poles will be close to it's EMF or rest voltage, I don't know how you call it. But if load active resistance is about zero, then the voltage across battery poles will be about zero, because all voltage drop will be on batteries internal resistance. Current will be pretty big.

Similar behavior shows induction coils or transformers - windings in these devices are not ideal, meaning have active resistance. So if we want to pull to much amperage out of it, voltage that we acquire is quite low, because most part of it is lost on winding's internal resistance.

In case of power supplies - they have overload protection. These devices are designed to give constant voltage, and when they can't do it anymore, they just turns off.

Just couple of things to think about. Cheers. And Happy New Year!!!

[ldissing]

Whacky current and other things

So, I finally got the SS tesla switch working, thanks Jetijs. The optoisolators work like a champ.

When I put a small motor on the bridge, with a big cap, it runs. Interestingly, when I put a small panel current meter in series, it pegs the meter (it is only a 500ma meter). The motor should not be drawing more than 250 ma, though, so this is very strange. If I put a small bulb in there, it says 200ma which seems high, but I don't know the true draw for that bulb, so I need another bulb with specs. When I put a 12V 20 watt halogen, it does not even start to light up. Interesting to say the least.

If I increase the time between switching, the transistors get really hot, so I have to keep the switching time pretty fast, which limits the voltage on the cap, which limits the type of load I can put on the "system" too.

If I leave the motor in there, but keep the switching time fast, the transistors do not get really hot, maybe 85-120F, which seems to be fine.

Anybody have any suggestions regarding the strange current reading when a motor is in there, the switching time, etc.?

I read somewhere that John Bedini was saying that it only switched 10-20 times per second, and other places where I've read about 100-800 times per second is correct. Anybody have experience with something they have working?

Thanks,

L

P.S. Relays seem to work infinitely better, as I can draw what I expect from the load, no transistors to get hot, and timing doesn't seem to be as critical. The relay method also works at 12 V, because of the way the circuit is connected, so any 12V load will work just fine.

[Matthew Jones]

I have gone as fast as 200 times per second (hz). I don't use transistors though.

I would reckon that at some speed you will start hydrolisis on the battery. probably around 350 - 400. Not sure where it at though.

Where did you read JB say 10 - 20 switches per second? Could you point me to that?

Matt

[ldissing]

Peter Lindemann said it on this forum or it is in the Mueller.pdf document in these forums. Just do a search for it.

I believe this is the link to the pdf.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa....html#post7525

The other link - > 100 hz for efficiency

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post22489

L

[ldissing]

I am pretty sure that same logic (on caps) does not apply to battery or a power source.

Also the component will only pull what it needs, you cannot force more through it, like hooking straight to battery. Thats a funny thing, but the best I can tell its the truth.

I agree with the battery/cap response. They are different.

If the motor hooked to a 12V battery pulls only 250 ma, then why or why would my panel meter peg over 500 ma?

This does not make sense. Where was the current coming from and where was it going? I believe this high current is also the reason that the transistors get hot. It is shoving a TON of current through the circuit and the only way I can limit it is to switch it more often. Maybe I could put some resistor in there with a high wattage and measure the voltage to see the current going though the bridge?

L

[Matthew Jones]

@ldissing

I've read both those several times and have not run accross Bedini talking about the speed of the switching action in either one. In fact one was written by Patrick Kelly and the other wrote by Tom Bearden.
Kelly mentions the electrodyne tests in an earlier version of DOC but they recomended No Higher than 200hz.

Also the AMP draw on a Tesla switch and Battery may be quete a bit different in the case of motor.

The reason primarly is the BEMF on the motor. When you ground a motor to run it both poles will create BEMF. This energy has to be disapated before current will flow. Reducing your actual flow time, and amount of flow. Also reducing the amount of energy actually doing work.

Running on a tesla switch you are only using either pole to run the load and nothing is grounded. BEMF is still being produced. but on a smaller scale and I suspect only on one pole. The pole that is opposite the polarity your on.
So if you are running on the ground side of the battery the North pole attracted part of the motor is making BEMF. This is my Theory I am still building up for testing. A Unipole motor may solve BEMF all together.

I have seen limited amounts of this on my scope in one way tests.
When watching the OUTPUT side of the motor on tesla switch you'll see 2 occilations. One is clear and obviously an ON/OFF wave. The other rises then falls but has both positive and negative spikes indacating BEMF. Depending on what side of the motor I power and what polarity of current I use the wave changes.

Also running test for the long term I have seen My batterries do not maintain the charge.
I have 4 Walmart lawn and Tractors. Hook the motor up straight to the batteries (all 4) in parrallel the motor will run the batteries down in 56 hours. Thats from 13.00 volt to 12.00 volt.
If I run the tesla switch till the batteries are dead (and they do die) it takes about 432 hours.
Thats about 8 times longer of a run.
I've tested the motor and gots docs on it its about 65% efficient when running under 12 volt.
I figure if the Tesla Switch is allowing for 8 time more runtime then I am recollecting about 85 - 90 % percent of the energy, I'm passing through. I know batteries loose maybe 5% percent because they are lead acid. The rest is lost through BEMF in the motor. This is what I am attempting to solve NOW.

So back your question why 250ma one way and 500 the other. Well you have dramatically reduced the amount of BEMF in the way.

The reason it does not feel any more powerful is because of the same thing I do not beleive that Both poles in a conventional motor are doing a full amount of work. So the motor runs slower or less powerful.


Matt

[Sephiroth]

@ldissing

The reason primarly is the BEMF on the motor. When you ground a motor to run it both poles will create BEMF. This energy has to be disapated before current will flow.

I am completely confused by this bit

I assumed you are refering to back-emf as the induced voltage generated by the coils passing the stator magnets or the self inductance of the coils opposing the change in current as the coils charge (ie. not flyback voltage)

but then I read this

has both positive and negative spikes indacating BEMF

and realised you ARE refering to the flyback voltage (I am guessing those are the spikes from the motor's brushes)

could you explain what you are saying in those first few paragraphs please I don't understand how "back emf" (flyback) has anything to do with this circuit.

also in this bit are you refering to the magnetic or electric poles?

and I suspect only on one pole. The pole that is opposite the polarity your on.

and if you have scope shots I'd love to see those as well (if it isn't too much hassle)!

Cheers!

[Matthew Jones]

I have tendancy to do that to people..

I assumed you are refering to back-emf as the induced voltage generated by the coils passing the stator magnets or the self inductance of the coils opposing the change in current as the coils charge (ie. not flyback voltage)

Thats some of Back EMF, but not all of it. After the motor switch's polarity in the coil, and starts to move away from the magnet (or stator), And is completly shut off, you still have charge on the wire. This charge is induced from the pulse of current to the coil. It very well the same thing you see in a bifiliar pulse motor with the secondary not on the power source.
You know what I am talking about.

You probably watched this already, but this is the example of the energy I am talking about.
YouTube - Simple Motor 2

What you call, FlyBack Voltage, is a bi product of BEMF. If you have flyback voltage it because you have BEMF on your coil, from the previous charging.
The BEMF is charged opposite of the EMF and what would normally flow to ground now wants to flow to HOT and you have to disapate OR remove it from the coil, to get any work done.

Listen to the motor in the movie. When the spark stops, although I don't show it, amperage draw goes up, and the speed of the motor goes up.

Why? ............ No BEMF in the way.

This energy reduces the flow of current in a motor. That what I was trying to explain. Why his motor drew more amperage under a tesla switch than while running straight off a battery.

When I say pole I'm refering to the Coil. My mistake. I type faster than I think somtimes.

SO what I should have said is...

If you running a motor using a ground (Conventionaly) the energy flowing through the motor will create BEMF on both coils that are charged at the time. When they make it around the next charging position the energy has to be disapated before it will flow through the coil. Less tyime flowing equals less flow.

But in Tesla switch both coils do not produce adverse BEMF. Only one coil does. (My hypothisis still). Both produce extra energies that linger on the wire but one side is charged (do to the polarity of the energy you putting in) the same as the energy you are running through the motor. This energy can get swept out as the the current passes through and can be deposited into the charging bank. It does not get in the way.

But the other coil doesn't do this. It makes an energy that is polarized opposite than the energy you are putting in and therefore you have to disapate it before you get any work out of the coil.

The cause for this I have NOT fiugred out a good way to write.
But the best I can say is when the energy you put in is from the NEGATIVE of your battery then repulses from the SOUTH magnet(stator) the byproduct energy, flows out nicely the next time the coil gets powered into the charging bank. Or maybe its opposite. I am not really sure about the finite details. But I know for sure its doing somthing like this.

Remember in most symetrical motors you have 2 poles (2 magnets) so one of your coils is charged to the south and one to the north while pulling into alignment then the polarity of your coils is flipped to push away.
This is where the BEMF is created. The repulsion cycle.

If you have descent motor you should see on the scope what I have seen.

But I'll have to draw it for you from memory. I'll post it in the morning

I am packing to move to North Carolina. My scope and all my stuff got taped up an hour or so ago.
I can hear it now , "Ya Right"

CHeers
Matt

[ldissing]

NC

Where in NC? Perhaps I could come and see what you are up to and we could discuss some things...I'm in SC.

If what you are saying is correct, then you should be able to run the monopole motor from the Tesla switch because there is only one pole. The spike could be used to charge another battery or cap and it should run for an extremely long time.

I was thinking about your getting 8 times the run length over a single battery. Actually, I think you'd have to say only 2 times as you are using 4 batteries total. Still, a nice improvement over a single battery. It is still not what we are looking though. Keep at it, you have still done a fine job.

This is the problem I'm having with all of these "technologies". Some things do look promising, but the gurus are still closed mouthed. We are trying to make things work, working hard at it too, and when we get lost because of lack of knowledge, we just have to stay ignorant. How many different things can one person try with a limited budget. I don't know if it is because they are just greedy, afraid, or they don't have what they say they have. It is a real drag to have to figure it out mostly by yourself. If it wasn't for these groups, everybody would be lost.
How many marriages have failed because of the hope of this stuff working and we men spending so much time on it? I know my wife is not happy with me!

L

[Matthew Jones]

Where in NC?

PM me ...

I was thinking about your getting 8 times the run length over a single battery. Actually, I think you'd have to say only 2 times as you are using 4 batteries total. Still, a nice improvement over a single battery. It is still not what we are looking though. Keep at it, you have still done a fine job.

4 batterries in Parrallel = 56 hours of runtime
same 4 batteries in a Tesla switch = 432 hours of runtime
432 / 56 = 7.714 times longer runtime.
Motor runs at or up to 100 watts AND PROVIDES SHAFT POWER.
Under Tesla the same motor only cost you 12.96 watts to get the same work done.
How much free energy do you want? And what the heck is it your looking for?
Me I'm trying to get off cheap. Maybe have a surplus in the end of somthing for free.
Gaurentee it don't get much better than that, unless you for some reason understand and can implement some high level physics.

Matt

[ldissing]

4 batterries in Parrallel = 56 hours of runtime
same 4 batteries in a Tesla switch = 432 hours of runtime

Sorry, I was remembering differently, thought it was for one battery. Congrats on that performance.

L

[ashtweth]

Thanks to Nick, more is coming on these tests, all will be added to the PDF tonight.

Tesla Switch - updated December 12 2008
Panacea University

Dave, Matt and Murray will also be looking over these and adding input, we will be building and adding ASAP. There is also a new Solid state design being added in there.

In the order Nick wanted them posted
ImageShack - Image Hosting :: mullerdc1.jpg
ImageShack - Image Hosting :: teslaswitchjp2.jpg
ImageShack - Image Hosting :: teslaswitchmod1mm7.jpg
ImageShack - Image Hosting :: teslaswitchmod2hp3.jpg
ImageShack - Image Hosting :: teslaswitchmod3aj7.jpg
ImageShack - Image Hosting :: teslaswitchmod4qt5.jpg
ImageShack - Image Hosting :: overunityxu1.jpg
ImageShack - Image Hosting :: joneswm9.jpg
ImageShack - Image Hosting :: jonesmod1zw4.jpg


Ash

[redeagle]

I can understand that you need an even duty cycle for each flip-flop. But wouldn't it make more sense to rotate every battery in and out of the charging slot in a 25%charge/75%discharge. it would only take four tpdt relays and commutator which can be driven by an ssg with the output coupled to the charge circuit. i have a manual switching setup that i can do just this i am currently driving my imhotep style simplified radiant oscillator. two of the poles switch the battery from a parallel to series loop. The third pole bypasses the series section when the battery is out of phase. This setup will put every battery in charging rotation. The commutator could be transfered to be driven by any dc motor that is being powered by the circuit. or to hard to tune be done electronically. If you can capture enough radiant energy to produce a significant gain then you can run alternating battery banks which can also be done automatically based on bank voltage. This way you can run an inverter without having to worry about radiant spikes ruining your devices. Capturing this radiant energy and feeding it back into the system might be the idea behind calling it a tesla switch.