about the Ferrocell (ferrolens)

[dyetalon]

Regards

Beg to differ. Take for example a DCPM motor, PM field stator with wound armature rotor. Like the Imperial from Ufo's Asymmetrical thread. The backiron is the outer steel tube and has a static (unchanging) magnetic field or flux in it. There is zero loss in the backiron. bi

What about path length for the field? There's probably a .15mm gap between one pole and the rotor, but the other pole has to go thru the backiron, bearings, shaft, half the rotor and then to the rotor tip. Doesn't sound very balanced, does it?

Similar example. Magnet stuck to refrigerator. Magnetic field (flux) from the magnet completes the path through the steel panel on the fridge. Does the steel panel get hot? Is there power loss in that magnetic circuit (magnet and steel)? bi

Magnets don't generate heat sitting still. I said something to that effect in an earlier post.

Most all the typical motors (excluding transverse flux and homopolar) are double air gap machines meaning they do use both a N and S stator pole, both facing the air gap, magnetically connected through the stator by the backiron.

Regards,

bi

You need to look at one of mine: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140125154A1/en

It's by no means typical. No magnets in this one. Its a switched reluctance design. when the price of neo's went up I had to come up with a new plan.
Switched the magnets out to Hiperco and reversed the drive logic.

It sucks instead of blows

(as in attraction vs. repulsion)

[bistander]

Backiron

While I'm steering this thread (even if its off topic) there is a lot to be said about UFO's comment. Plenty of energy is lost in the 'back-iron' of a conventional motor (as heat). That's because they are thinking LINEAR - like iron filings.
When you utilize BOTH poles simultaneously, very little is lost to heat and you end up with a more magnetically-balanced and quiet running motor.
Guess what's in the middle between both poles:?

NOTHING !

Regards

Beg to differ. Take for example a DCPM motor, PM field stator with wound armature rotor. Like the Imperial from Ufo's Asymmetrical thread. The backiron is the outer steel tube and has a static (unchanging) magnetic field or flux in it. There is zero loss in the backiron.

Similar example. Magnet stuck to refrigerator. Magnetic field (flux) from the magnet completes the path through the steel panel on the fridge. Does the steel panel get hot? Is there power loss in that magnetic circuit (magnet and steel)?

Most all the typical motors (excluding transverse flux and homopolar) are double air gap machines meaning they do use both a N and S stator pole, both facing the air gap, magnetically connected through the stator by the backiron.

Regards,

bi

[dyetalon]

Nope. Don't get it now. Didn't know motors and generators had inner and outer poles. But off topic here. Please drop it and return to ferrolens discussion.

Thanks,

bi

While I'm steering this thread (even if its off topic) there is a lot to be said about UFO's comment. Plenty of energy is lost in the 'back-iron' of a conventional motor (as heat). That's because they are thinking LINEAR - like iron filings.
When you utilize BOTH poles simultaneously, very little is lost to heat and you end up with a more magnetically-balanced and quiet running motor.
Guess what's in the middle between both poles:?

NOTHING !

[bistander]

Don't get it

Ok Bistander,

This is to what am referring to...

Say it is a Motor...PM or wound Stators...no matter what pulses-feed it...PWM...AC DC
Look at STATORS MAGNETIC FIELD arrangement...then realize their armature-rotors interact only with 50% OF INNER STATOR POLES...while all outer poles are shunt to a steel housing...

That's what I meant...Got it now?


Ufopolitics

Nope. Don't get it now. Didn't know motors and generators had inner and outer poles. But off topic here. Please drop it and return to ferrolens discussion.

Thanks,

bi

[dyetalon]

Ok Bistander,

This is to what am referring to...

Say it is a Motor...PM or wound Stators...no matter what pulses-feed it...PWM...AC DC
Look at STATORS MAGNETIC FIELD arrangement...then realize their armature-rotors interact only with 50% OF INNER STATOR POLES...while all outer poles are shunt to a steel housing...

That's what I meant...Got it now?


Ufopolitics

Not my motors. They use 100%. No back-iron, either. Its called a dipolar motor- here is the first one:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US9190949B1/en

Remember, it was just our first prototype and evolved from there.

The 'motor people' didn't like that so I changed it to 'Transverse Flux' motor. Crap, getting off topic here (on my own post, too!).

[dyetalon]

Now that sounds much much more acceptable than blatantly attacking the filings experiment.. like its all wrong.. this is what I'm trying to point out to markoul and ufo..
They might show different geometry but it doesn't mean one is lying, it simply show how complex magnetism is, I do believe there is more than what the filings show, and so is the ferrolens, people should build models that comply to both experiment depictions..

I'm really amazed by that last video I posted by brian (prism like arrangement), I never really imagined the light would depict the classical model of magnetism by that experiment. I keep watching it..

Yes, its very fascinating. It's kept my attention all these years. More than one brain can handle, for sure. That's why I'm here. To get all of our brains humming along with the same tune and make some leaps forward !

Please remember a lot of the members here are in other countries and speak other languages. Sometimes what we take as hostility and aggression gets twisted during translation.

These guys are trying to make a point and as an English speaking person, I can't imagine what all this looks like in Greek or Russian

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

You are mistaken. A well designed electric machine will use practically all of the magnetic field. Like in the high 90% range.

And then, if as dyetalon points out, the machine utilizes a PM field, there is no ongoing cost (power loss) associated with the unused field.

Regards,

bi

PS: Ufo,
As I've mentioned to you before, if not for our electric machinery, you'd be living in the dark age. I don't know why you badmouth it so much. The electric machinery doesn't burn the oil or coal. And when combined with batteries charged by renewables, electric machinery can replace and eventually obsolete the carbon burners on our roads and highways.

Ok Bistander,

This is to what am referring to...

Say it is a Motor...PM or wound Stators...no matter what pulses-feed it...PWM...AC DC
Look at STATORS MAGNETIC FIELD arrangement...then realize their armature-rotors interact only with 50% OF INNER STATOR POLES...while all outer poles are shunt to a steel housing...

That's what I meant...Got it now?


Ufopolitics

[ricards]

I don't want to speak for Markoul, but we haven't used iron filings as a model to build magnetic devices but to try and understand how a magnet works.

The Ferrocell isn't a replacement for iron filings, but another method of seeing the effects of magnetism on matter. Now we can view from zero (parallel-iron filings) to 90 deg (perpendicular-cell). It's just a different point of view.

The filings show us what the greatest potential of the field looks like and the ferrolens shows us the least potential.

Now that sounds much much more acceptable than blatantly attacking the filings experiment.. like its all wrong.. this is what I'm trying to point out to markoul and ufo..
They might show different geometry but it doesn't mean one is lying, it simply show how complex magnetism is, I do believe there is more than what the filings show, and so is the ferrolens, people should build models that comply to both experiment depictions..

I'm really amazed by that last video I posted by brian (prism like arrangement), I never really imagined the light would depict the classical model of magnetism by that experiment. I keep watching it..

[dyetalon]

Hi dyetalon,

...I was referring the the classic "model", like expressed by FEMM.

bi

Don't forget FEMM is a program. And a program will generate whatever algorithm it was written with.
You could program the computer to generate anything (look at movie special effects).

Here's a bad story.
About 10 years ago I came up with a new idea for an electric motor.
I made a great running prototype and began looking for investors.
Ended up with a bunch of patents and many demonstrations of this new method of spinning a rotor to government, businesses and manufacturers.

When it came time to up-scale the thing to high horsepower, I needed an engineer with the brains to make it so (sorry, but I'm not that smart).
Well, seems there are no computer simulation programs that can be configured to duplicate my field patterns in the arrangement I use.

Why? Because I got my ideas from viewing thru a cell.

No computers, no up-scale. We 'winged it' and made a 10 hp, but its efficiency is lagging behind the small prototype.

Moral of the story?
It would cost lots and lots of $$$ and many programming hours to re-design a FEMM program from its primary functions and to describe (visually) from a different set of rules.

[bistander]

... all this machines do is only use less than 50% of Magnetic Fields capability...

Hi Ufo,

You are mistaken. A well designed electric machine will use practically all of the magnetic field. Like in the high 90% range.

And then, if as dyetalon points out, the machine utilizes a PM field, there is no ongoing cost (power loss) associated with the unused field.

Regards,

bi

PS: Ufo,
As I've mentioned to you before, if not for our electric machinery, you'd be living in the dark age. I don't know why you badmouth it so much. The electric machinery doesn't burn the oil or coal. And when combined with batteries charged by renewables, electric machinery can replace and eventually obsolete the carbon burners on our roads and highways.

[bistander]

Magnetic fields

I don't want to speak for Markoul, but we haven't used iron filings as a model to build magnetic devices but to try and understand how a magnet works.
...

Hi dyetalon,

I am well aware. I spent many years in the industry, and a few in academia. I was referring the the classic "model", like expressed by FEMM.



But it is curious (not) how iron powder or filings seem to follow the simulation field lines.

Image from: http://www.energeticforum.com/310239-post1082.html

Regards,

bi

[dyetalon]

Screenshot_2018-05-16-15-09-18.png

Thats where I've seen waves cancel out-in the double split experiment.

I'm a decrepit farmer and my days are numbered, I'd just love to see 100%
proof on this one.
I had no intention of belittling Timm's work, I just thought it would be an
excellent demonstration of relativity!!

I'm not easily offended, no worries here. I've been on forums since the 80's (BBS's) and have chatted and argued about trivial stuff for months on end.

Yes, like I mentioned earlier; to get any more details we need to go quantum.

Think about this for a minute-
The particles inside a cell begin to form microscopic 'chains' when influenced by a magnetic field (see pix).
Notice these chains all seem to be about the same length?
They stop growing when they reach domain size. WHAT?

Now imagine billions of these chains with light passing thru them (like the double-slit, only a billion-slit).
You are right on the mark, dude.

Another interesting fact:
Look closely- see the chains have formed into pairs?
That's Superparamagnetic for ya !

Image made by Laszlo Vadkerti last year. Another happy Ferrocell user.

[Iamnuts]

EM
Hello EM,

As I understand it, you say we have used a totally incorrect model of magnetic fields to design the billion or so electric motors, generators, actuators and transformers, and the countless magnetic memory devices. Isn't it odd these machines and devices function so very well?
Yes Bi I totally agree, we have a Tesla car and it goes like a rocket and a couple of
days ago my Makita drill nearly ripped my hand off, and what a tiny motor that
has. Big pity is the battery is such a weak link.

[Iamnuts]

Screenshot_2018-05-16-15-09-18.png

Thats where I've seen waves cancel out-in the double split experiment.

I'm a decrepit farmer and my days are numbered, I'd just love to see 100%
proof on this one.
I had no intention of belittling Timm's work, I just thought it would be an
excellent demonstration of relativity!!

[dyetalon]

Nope, it is not "odd"...if we all have in mind that all this machines do is only use less than 50% of Magnetic Fields capability...reason why NONE has been able to reach full (100%) efficiencies...much less OU.

As most of all this machines really work with the "rough field knowledge" we all are tought.
Here I will cite -again- the "solenoid" usage in industry...how does it uses the field?...does it cares if we reverse voltage polarities it will not "function" properly?

Of course not.

And so the AC FIELD based machinery...same deal...

In overall look at the Electric Industry...it has only served as an "auxiliary supply" for the Main Energetic Industry...which is Oil Based up to now.

You could "bluff" about our electric machinery...only the day when we are producing electromagnetic plasma small self running turbines...Antigravity Engines...self run generators...etc,etc...where Oil Tech won't be needed any more.

Only then you could bluff and be proud of what we have achieved.


Regards


Ufopolitics

Actually, modern PWM electric motors (>5hp) are between 95 and 98% efficient. It's the little motors that need improvement.

New types of rotors (99% copper) and magnetic materials (like Hiperco-50) have pushed efficiencies up a lot. We can be a little proud of this.
I worked in the motor business for a few years and the manufacturers and EPA don't care about the efficiency of small motors. Collectively they don't use much energy. It's the big muthers that suck up the juice. In the USA, there are new laws in effect concerning horsepower vs efficiency that the manufacturers must abide to or they can't sell their products here.

It's a bit off topic, but isn't it interesting that a coil of wire with electrons running thru will create a magnetic field at the expense of heat, but a magnet just sits there, all magnetic like but COLD. If we could actually build a working all-magnet motor (rotor and stators) we would eliminate the heat and get pretty close to 100% efficiency. After all, that's the problem: heat reduces efficiency.

This fact has always bothered me.
Is it just a matter of domain alignment? I doubt it...and what is so special when all the domains align in the same direction? Are we 'opening a doorway' into another dimension?