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  #61  
Old 04-03-2012, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by lamare View Post
You got that 100% correct, bro

He is using the water as the conductor.

That is why he using a boat and not a car on rubber wheels...
Are you sure he's using the water as a conductor between transmitter and receiver, because I can't see any wires going into the water, and he explains the water as being the "return path to earth". That is, he is describing it in conventional terms. He's not saying the energy is coming in from the earth/water, he is saying it's returning to earth through the water?? Like a normal circuit. And in this case, why is his terminal capacitance sphere so high in the air? If it was working properly then he could make it a lot neater than that, no need to have a big mast on the boat sticking up in the air.

If he was "cheating" then he could use something like an AV plug and employ the water as a virtual ground, not needing any connection between transmitter and receiver. This way the water would be the "return" path like he describes.
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  #62  
Old 04-03-2012, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lamare View Post
I really do not care about an idealized example of an electric charge.

I am talking about a charge that is moving not static and you really should quote what you feel is the pertinent part.

You arent off the hook yet with that tem business either.
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:15 PM
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so tm is something other than tem?
Yes, the tm mode is actually short for TM,LD mode, whereby the magnetic component is perpendicular with respect to the propagation direction of the wave, and the electric is in the same direction as the propagation direction of the wave, hence longitudinal.

With the TEM mode, both are perpendicular with respect to the propagation direction of the wave and in that situation both are spiralling around the propagation direction of the wave.

Note that in all cases the electric field and the magnetic field are perpendicular with respect to one another.

Quote:
how can you have tem modes if you cancel the tem?
When you cancel them, they cease to exist. Just like you can cancel sound with anti-sound.

Quote:
again you are presuming the lmd somehow comes into existence and or is proven as a result of the tem mode. I have seen nothing to that effect.
No, the lmd is a distincly different propagation mode from the TEM. It is one and the same as the TM,LD mode whereby you have the magnetic perpendicular with respect to the propagation direction of the wave and the electric longitudinal with respect to the propagation direction.

This is the mode used commercially these days by Elmore, as I posted some time ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lamare View Post
Interestingly, at this Wikipedia article, we find a reference to the so-called E-Line, which refers to the article I posted before, which shows that you can actually do without the dielectric, but you need those launchers/catchers ( http://www.corridor.biz/FullArticle.pdf ) :

And since we like a picture, here's one, linked from E-Line:Technology :

Source: Animation of modeled E-fields for a TM mode wave propagating on a perfect conductor

So, it looks like it is possible to transfer the energy using a single line, provided everything is tuned correctly.

The E-Line stuff suggests you may need these kinds of launchers in order to accomplish what Tesla wanted "I do not permit the energy to go out":

So, it appears that if you use the earth as a transmission line by bringing it into resonance using a TMT, it works because of the presence of the atmosphere, while when using one wire to connect transmitter and receiver, you have to take extra steps in order to prevent radiaton into space.


Update: Coming to think of it, it may be worthwhile to try and take a coax cable for the one-wire connecting transmitter and receiver, provided everything is tuned correctly. IIRC, in the article about the E-line, they explained their e-line basically as a coax cable with the shield being somewhere at infinity.... So, you should probably be able to prevent radiation using a coax cable instead of an uninsulated wire.

Update 2: Found some patents by Elmore, which show a.o. the construction details of the launchers/catchers: Directory contents of /pdf/Patents/Elmore/

What is confusing, is that with a coil you have multiple modes being present at the same time:

1) You have the TEM mode propagating more or less around the coil; and
2) the LDM or TM,LD mode propagating more or less in the length direction of the coil.

These two together result in an energy flow spiralling around the coil. At low frequencies (below the natural resonance frequency of the coil), the LDM mode is insignificant, so all you see then is the TEM mode.

At much higher frequencies, the LDM mode sticks its head out of the dirt, and you get a mix of both.

ONLY in the specific situation that the TEM mode spiralling around the coil cancels itself out, you are left with a pure longitudinal mode, whereby all magnetic fields are cancelled out.
  #64  
Old 04-03-2012, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
Given that its a time variant property that is a static field description. if the charge was to move a current would be induced, and since the plates of the capacitor are parallel to each other there is a perpendicular B field induced.

this is why geometry is everything.
and whenever you have a moving charge you have an intrinsic magnetic counterpart. I have seen lots of talk around it but not direct on target.

So once you have a current you cannot get rid of its magnetic counterpart, the only thing you can do is absorb as much as possible back into the system.
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:18 PM
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You got that 100% correct, bro



He is using the water as the conductor.

That is why he using a boat and not a car on rubber wheels...
I've been thinking about this, we are all familiar with the counterpoise needed for wave propagation of hertzian fields, hence a ground. Tesla did indeed mention flying so that rules out an earth ground.

It may be a case of 'virtual' ground, but the ground is the ether, dark matter what ever one wants to call it, counterpoised against the dielectric in counter-space. If that is possible then it doesn't matter what your location is, I come to this theory due to the wave nature of matter. matter like the earth is a counterpoise to the dielectric and if matter is a wave function then we should theoretically be able to create a ground anywhere we like in space. also has implications as to what gravity is, it's not a matter of shielding gravity but altering the field effect.
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  #66  
Old 04-03-2012, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Kokomoj0 View Post
and whenever you have a moving charge you have an intrinsic magnetic counterpart. I have seen lots of talk around it but not direct on target.

So once you have a current you cannot get rid of its magnetic counterpart, the only thing you can do is absorb as much as possible back into the system.
If the B field is perpendicular to E field due to the geometry of the line it will always be that way. what is interesting to notice is that it can be manipulated but this requires creating a resonant wave with a geometry where the phase shift rotates the B field to a as I see it a singularity. once this occurs then you'll have a LM wave. the Extra coil is also a key feature in that it is a load and virtual termination point for the originating transverse wave at resonance, if the extra coil was not in place then any circuit added to the secondary would alter the resonant point and no pure longitudinal wave would be possible. I could be wrong but it's purely based on the effect of series circuits,the secondary coil starts the transformation and the extra coil magnifies the wave by being the end termination for the transverse wave to maintain resonance, if there is a load placed upon the circuit.
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  #67  
Old 04-03-2012, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by lamare View Post
Yes, the tm mode is actually short for TM,LD mode, whereby the magnetic component is perpendicular with respect to the propagation direction of the wave, and the electric is in the same direction as the propagation direction of the wave, hence longitudinal.

With the TEM mode, both are perpendicular with respect to the propagation direction of the wave and in that situation both are spiralling around the propagation direction of the wave.

Note that in all cases the electric field and the magnetic field are perpendicular with respect to one another.



When you cancel them, they cease to exist. Just like you can cancel sound with anti-sound.

How do you cancel them since as you can see from your picture that they simply superimpose?


No, the lmd is a distincly different propagation mode from the TEM. It is one and the same as the TM,LD mode whereby you have the magnetic perpendicular with respect to the propagation direction of the wave and the electric longitudinal with respect to the propagation direction.

This is the mode used commercially these days by Elmore, as I posted some time ago:




What is confusing, is that with a coil you have multiple modes being present at the same time:

1) You have the TEM mode propagating more or less around the coil; and
2) the LDM or TM,LD mode propagating more or less in the length direction of the coil.

These two together result in an energy flow spiralling around the coil. At low frequencies (below the natural resonance frequency of the coil), the LDM mode is insignificant, so all you see then is the TEM mode.

At much higher frequencies, the LDM mode sticks its head out of the dirt, and you get a mix of both.

ONLY in the specific situation that the TEM mode spiralling around the coil cancels itself out, you are left with a pure longitudinal mode, whereby all magnetic fields are cancelled out.

you talk about that as if it were an absolute fact do you have any data on that? tem is set up as a result of a boundary condition so I am not sure what you are driving at.



Quote:
Types of modes

Transverse modes are classified into different types:
  • TE modes (Transverse Electric) no electric field in the direction of propagation.
  • TM modes (Transverse Magnetic) no magnetic field in the direction of propagation.
  • TEM modes (Transverse ElectroMagnetic) neither electric nor magnetic field in the direction of propagation.
  • Hybrid modes nonzero electric and magnetic fields in the direction of propagation.
Some authors use an alternate notation;
  • H modes have a magnetic field component in the direction of propagation. H modes are equivalent to TE modes.
  • E modes have an electric field component in the direction of propagations. E modes are equivalent to TM modes.
you have not posted any evidence of the existence of an LD mode
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Last edited by Kokomoj0; 04-03-2012 at 09:47 PM.
  #68  
Old 04-03-2012, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by garrettm4 View Post
Forewarning, what you are about to read is HIGHLY theoretical, full of personal bias, and is likely to contain numerous errors, read at your own risk.

Lamare,

I don’t wish to create an argument, but I thought I would give a few comments to the reply you gave to my recent post.
Don't worry about arguing about this stuff. It is only by exchanging our points of view that we can learn from one another and gain new insights. That is what scientific debate is supposed to be...


Quote:
It is plain to for all to see that we both use different types of analysis and we also rely heavily on different systems of electrical engineering. I get the feeling that you are more of a “physicist”, deeply concerned with material and “immaterial” PARTICLES and “quantum madness”, rather than a “electro-mechanical engineer”, who is deeply concerned with electrical forces, fields & gradients along with mechanical forces and gradients. I would say you’re like a Richard Feynman type “quantum physicist”. I would like to say (if I may be so bold) that I am more of a (lesser) Steinmetz type of engineer. The two distinct logic systems used by both parties are usually not compatible, they overlap on many levels and appear on the “effective level” to be the same, BUT at the “fundamental level” they are vastly different.

Yes, I think i am more of a “physicist” than an engineer in that sense that I try to understand the fundamentals of what I see. I need a deep understanding of the fundamentals behind the stuff I work with in order to make sense of what is going on. I cannot take a mathematical equation and just stay with the logic expressed in the math. I need to visualize what the math means in order to understand it.

But I am definitely not a “quantum physicist”. I am an aether physicist.

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In the standard “Maxwellian Electrodynamics” as used and taught today, which has been turned into Ensteinian dogma, the “electric field vector” is E (volts per meter), the “magnetic field vector” is H (amperes per meter) and the Poynting vector (electro-magnetic energy) is S (volt-amps per meter square). This is only a SMALL PART of what is going on, there is NO WAY THAT THESE ALONE CAN DESCRIBE PURE LONGITUDINAL ENERGY, (most transverse situations can be described by the above though). Let’s continue this topic further on, after we cover a few pertinent points.
I agree with that. And since the electromagnetic propagation modes that are described in the textbooks contain some longitudinal modes, whereby the other component is by definition transverse, you can describe these by the Maxwell equations.

Quote:
Let’s look at the STEINMETZ POINT OF VIEW. Steinmetz came up with his OWN IDEA OF REALATIVITY and DISCARDED MAXWELL, quite interesting if you ask me.
I discard BOTH relativity AND the current Maxwell equations:

Tuks DrippingPedia : Ruins 96 Years Einstein Relativity

Quote:
Steinmetz also incorporated large amounts of Heaviside’s work (which had many disagreements with maxwells theory) and developed a new type of engineering perspective of the Electric Circuit and Transmission Lines. Steinmetz had a more advanced (in my opinion) way of looking at things because he was an engineer that ACTUALLY MADE THINGS and ACTUALLY DELT WITH VERY LARGE POWER SYSTEMS (multi-megawatt). This is something we all take for granted, we each believe a book can teach us everything, well experience cannot be taught via paper, it is something that only blood, sweat, and tears with actual application can produce.
I also make things, most notably my attempt to perform a longitudinal moonbounce. And I also ran into significant problems that taught me a lot...


Quote:
From the portions I have read of his various books, Steinmetz has built his own “sand box” a system of logic and mathematics separate from Maxwell (but does contain some Maxwellian concepts). In this system we have the Electric Field as POWER not Volts per Meter, using the Dollard symbolism it is denoted with Q (which is actually the “electric flux” of the field and does not necessarily denote any one specific vector), where the Poynting vector S denotes the TEM PORTION of the Electric Field. The Dielectric Field is denoted with G (that’s right CAPITAL G, lowercase g was for conductance). Dielectric energy isn’t necessarily VOLTS (e, proportion) it can also be AMPERES (I, induction) this is a fundamental point that separates it from the “electric field vector E” used today. Also Magnetic energy isn’t necessarily AMPERES (i, proportion) it can also be VOLTS (E, induction) once again this is different from “magnetic field vector H” used today. With these differences, we slowly develop the “QUADRA-POLAR” view of electricity starting with Steinmetz’s and carried further with Mr. Dollard with incorporation of the Bewelly transformer theory. This is also where the four distinct co-effients L, M, K & C come into play.

Now back to the first topic, the orthogonal E, H and S vectors as used today CANNOT describe the WHOLE SITUATION.
That is what I have been saying also....

And ALL theories trying to incorporate a union of the dielectric and magnetic fields CANNOT describe the WHOLE situation either, because magnetism is in essence the rotational form of the dielectric.


Quote:
There are TWO counter ROATATING S vectors. Also, the orthogonal E & H vectors don’t directly represent the Dielectric and Magnetic fields. The USUAL understanding of these vectors ONLY GIVES THE TRANSVERSE portion of whats going on.

Yes, and that is because you in essence describe a union of one single phenomenon with a particular shape of this same phenomenon that happens to run around in circles, that rotates.



Quote:
If the two counter rotating S vectors sum to a Zero-Vector what does it mean to modern “physics”? What does the NON-orthogonal alignment of the E and H vectors mean to modern physics? What does non transverse propagation mean to modern physics? To be honest I don’t know, but it would seem (to me) that we can’t use modern physics to describe these things.
It is essence simply defined away. Non transverse propagation is undefined and therefore cannot exist according to modern "physics".


Quote:
The “Electric Field” as taught to day has little to do with anything Steinmetz or Mr. Dollard have written about, it mostly pertains to the MAXWELLIANS who insist on its use. Furthermore, THE ELECTRIC FIELD ISN’T JUST TRANSVERSE ENERGY it contains LONGITUDINAL ENERGY as well.
Exactly. And as soon as you insist on a union of the electric field with it's rotating shape, you loose the whole longitudinal part in your equations.


Quote:
I am not saying I have an answer to the problem of the non-periodic solution of a “longitudinal dielectric wave” (or the significance of the Electric Field when in the pure Longitudinal Mode). What I am saying, is that just as with TEM waves (TE, TM & TEM), THERE IS MORE THAN ONE MODE OF PROPAGATION with longitudinal waves (LD, LM & LMD). The Magnetic Field is present in TWO of the longitudinal modes; only in ONE mode is the longitudinal dielectric field “free” or independent of the (transverse) magnetic field.
Exactly. And it is that ONE mode that is missing, because everyone insist on the union of the electric field with it's rotating shape, the magnetic field.

The magnetic field is just a special case of the electric field, because the electric field is nothing other than the pressure of the aether, a fluid-like medium, which can obviously rotate, which is what magnetism is.

Quote:
If your focus is solely on the LD wave, what you say makes more sense, but REMEMBER it ISN’T the only Longitudinal mode of propagation. I wish you luck in your endeavors, and hopefully someone can tidy up the confusion around longitudinal waves WITHOUT involving “quantum madness”, “scalar insanity” or other absurd farces.
I was aware there was a distinction, but thanks to the discussion today, it has become much clearer to me today.

Thanks to the comments here, I realized that the Tesla transmitter most likely actually transforms the LMD mode in the secondary into a LD mode in the "extra" coil, while being driven from a TEM mode in the primary...

I hope to be able to have some simulations made of the pancake coil in the near future, because if that is operating in LD/LMD mode, one should be able to simulate it just fine with current software...
  #69  
Old 04-03-2012, 09:58 PM
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Kokomoj0, are you looking for physical proof? or mathematical theory?
I view that the videos of the radio reception are proof of tel-uric currents, however the pics of experiments Eric did with the extra coil are downright baffling and would point to longitudinal waves as TEM waves can not exhibit those behaviors.

The mathematical theory has basic structure but is not fully finished.
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
Tesla did indeed mention flying so that rules out an earth ground.
I'm stumped when it comes to flying. With big enough capacitances and receiving plates it's possible to get some power without any physical connection (and unmatched coils), but the power drops off very quickly using the grounded side as coil output. So I have no idea how he intended to do that. This video shows someone achieving flight, but we all know that if he moved further away from the coil then it would come crashing down to the ground.

Worlds's 1st wireless Flight of A Tesla Coil powered helicopter(no batteries) - YouTube

And I assume this thing is powered with the radiated (wasted) field (not to mention the construction is wrong but ignoring that). Then seeing as Tesla could bias the ground currents vs radiation depending on how it was set up, it doesn't look like that one transmitter would have been capable of doing everything he proposed all at the same time. Unless I'm missing something very important
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  #71  
Old 04-03-2012, 10:15 PM
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NFG Coming!

The following is from Alternating Current Phenomena, Fifth Edition, C.P. Steinmetz, Art. 50

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  #72  
Old 04-03-2012, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dR-Green View Post
I'm stumped when it comes to flying. With big enough capacitances and receiving plates it's possible to get some power without any physical connection (and unmatched coils), but the power drops off very quickly using the grounded side as coil output. So I have no idea how he intended to do that. This video shows someone achieving flight, but we all know that if he moved further away from the coil then it would come crashing down to the ground.

Worlds's 1st wireless Flight of A Tesla Coil powered helicopter(no batteries) - YouTube

And I assume this thing is powered with the radiated (wasted) field (not to mention the construction is wrong but ignoring that). Then seeing as Tesla could bias the ground currents vs radiation depending on how it was set up, it doesn't look like that one transmitter would have been capable of doing everything he proposed all at the same time. Unless I'm missing something very important
Honestly I hadn't given it much thought until I related to the counter-space of the dielectric and how I see it the B-field rotation to a singularity.
In simpler terms, theoretically a perfect setup as Tesla more than likely designed do not radiate any hertzian waves, this would mean that a grounded counterpoise or at the least a single wire connection is no longer needed, a true wireless system comes into existence. The 'stress' if we call it that in the dielectric would be everywhere and everywhen, the ether would become the 'link' not sure if it's a conductor or collector but it would indeed be the 'link'. then anywhere a receptive antenna is put it would collect the 'signal' or power of the transmitter regardless of distance or spacial location. the receptive antennae connects to the transmitting antennae thru counter-space. The transmitter would need a ground if starting with a conventional TEM wave, an air to air setup would require the use of starting with an 'electrostatic' LD wave, much like the phenomenon of cloud to cloud lightning.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dR-Green View Post
I'm stumped when it comes to flying. With big enough capacitances and receiving plates it's possible to get some power without any physical connection (and unmatched coils), but the power drops off very quickly using the grounded side as coil output. So I have no idea how he intended to do that. This video shows someone achieving flight, but we all know that if he moved further away from the coil then it would come crashing down to the ground.

Worlds's 1st wireless Flight of A Tesla Coil powered helicopter(no batteries) - YouTube

And I assume this thing is powered with the radiated (wasted) field (not to mention the construction is wrong but ignoring that). Then seeing as Tesla could bias the ground currents vs radiation depending on how it was set up, it doesn't look like that one transmitter would have been capable of doing everything he proposed all at the same time. Unless I'm missing something very important

I don't think that saucer is powered by the Tesla coil, we can see the
resonant receiver beside it and the effect of motor connected to it, it's hardly
turning. He has batteries in it I think. The others are powered by solar panels,
induction ect. It is possible the saucer is somewhat charged by the Tesla coil
but in my opinion it is not powered by the Tesla coil and it is a trick or he
would have proved it better. I also don't think it can work quite like that.

Tesla intended to power planes did he have that capability ? Or was it
something he envisioned and was planning to sort out the details later?

The planes (if they had no storage/accumulators) would need to draw a lot of
energy constantly or they would drop, if they had accumulators they would
only need draw energy at intervals. I don't think batteries in a plane are a
good idea though.

Tesla does show receivers with two aerial plates spaced at the correct
distance to give a potential difference. think that is the path to take for
aerial vehicles and cars could use a capacitive link to the ground maybe.

If two plates are placed at an odd multiple of the 1/4 WL distance apart then
they will show a potential difference which can power stuff.

Cheers
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Last edited by Farmhand; 04-03-2012 at 10:33 PM.
  #74  
Old 04-03-2012, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
Honestly I hadn't given it much thought until I related to the counter-space of the dielectric and how I see it the B-field rotation to a singularity.
In simpler terms, theoretically a perfect setup as Tesla more than likely designed do not radiate any hertzian waves, this would mean that a grounded counterpoise or at the least a single wire connection is no longer needed, a true wireless system comes into existence. The 'stress' if we call it that in the dielectric would be everywhere and everywhen, the ether would become the 'link' not sure if it's a conductor or collector but it would indeed be the 'link'. then anywhere a receptive antenna is put it would collect the 'signal' or power of the transmitter regardless of distance or spacial location. the receptive antennae connects to the transmitting antennae thru counter-space. The transmitter would need a ground if starting with a conventional TEM wave, an air to air setup would require the use of starting with an 'electrostatic' LD wave, much like the phenomenon of cloud to cloud lightning.
That's interesting But like Farmhand says I wonder if it was something he planned and hadn't actually achieved/confirmed experimentally yet. A high altitude test like that wouldn't be easy to set up.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Farmhand View Post
I don't think that saucer is powered by the Tesla coil, we can see the
resonant receiver beside it and the effect of motor connected to it, it's hardly
turning. He has batteries in it I think. The others are powered by solar panels,
induction ect. It is possible the saucer is somewhat charged by the Tesla coil
but in my opinion it is not powered by the Tesla coil and it is a trick or he
would have proved it better. I also don't think it can work quite like that.
Lol, yeah maybe you're right. As far as the plates are concerned, how would you take off and land, because the distance would change. And I expect the plates would need to be pretty massive, would the plane itself even be big enough I wonder.

Does anyone know of any more information from Tesla besides the fact it was a part of the overall plan for the ideal system to power things?
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  #76  
Old 04-03-2012, 11:25 PM
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Back to the C.S.I., these are the data files of the results of the test a few weeks ago. The .txt files contain the scope data, channel B is below channel A, and the Excel file is the same data plotted on charts. All files are compressed into a single .rar file.

telluric_vs_hertz_results-01.rar

The transmitter is 84.78km away, measured using UK Grid Reference Finder
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  #77  
Old 04-03-2012, 11:37 PM
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The following is from Alternating Current Phenomena, Fifth Edition, C.P. Steinmetz, Art. 50


so then as I said the conductance IS in fact the reciprocal of the resistance and in the case of reactance must include the phase angle.
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Old 04-03-2012, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
Kokomoj0, are you looking for physical proof? or mathematical theory?
I view that the videos of the radio reception are proof of tel-uric currents, however the pics of experiments Eric did with the extra coil are downright baffling and would point to longitudinal waves as TEM waves can not exhibit those behaviors.

The mathematical theory has basic structure but is not fully finished.

But we can receive telluric 60 cycles from california light and power too. So now what?

That last part makes no sense to me.

Yeh you cant just state something exists because you "think" it exists. You need to support it with some sort of empirical evidence, and a "double bump" resonance does not provide any sort of positive evidence it exists. sorry I have graphic equalizers with a 1/60 octave Q and I can put them side by side too, proves nothing.

I have not seen what I would classify "new" math, or anything that I could not figure out without adding extra quadrants. Thats my problem with all this and as we go those very pointed questions that I put up here that go unanswered are stacking up.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokomoj0 View Post
I have not seen what I would classify "new" math, or anything that I could not figure out without adding extra quadrants. Thats my problem with all this and as we go those very pointed questions that I put up here that go unanswered are stacking up.
Go build an Alexanderson network or a TMT base on Eric's dimensions and prove/disprove it to yourself. You will get nowhere by asking a bunch of questions and saying everybody here is wrong.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by lamare View Post
I discard BOTH relativity AND the current Maxwell equations:

Tuks DrippingPedia : Ruins 96 Years Einstein Relativity

Until you have something "fully functional" that replaces it you cannot. At lease not legitimately.

The magnetic field is just a special case of the electric field, because the electric field is nothing other than the pressure of the aether, a fluid-like medium, which can obviously rotate, which is what magnetism is.

Sure but a charge is only a charge, a scalar potential that sits there like a pretty princess doing nothing.


As soon as that charge does something (moves or is directed to move) there is that pesky intrinsic magnetic field that sets up right with it as a result of flow, current.


Thanks to the comments here, I realized that the Tesla transmitter most likely actually transforms the LMD mode in the secondary into a LD mode in the "extra" coil, while being driven from a TEM mode in the primary...

I hope to be able to have some simulations made of the pancake coil in the near future, because if that is operating in LD/LMD mode, one should be able to simulate it just fine with current software...

Yeh if I have time I will set up my spice program also. Dont have much use for it now days LOL
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Web000x View Post
Go build an Alexanderson network or a TMT base on Eric's dimensions and prove/disprove it to yourself. You will get nowhere by asking a bunch of questions and saying everybody here is wrong.

no, what you do not understand is that I disagree with much of what is being said here based upon my own education and personal experience. Because I pose it in the form of a question does not mean that I do not already know (or presume) an answer just as you all are doing.

I have no need to be a "TPU" tard with a coil winding obsession to prove to myself what every engineer learns in second semester. (to be blunt)

When I see something that has promise to fulfill my expectations of a successful project then I will start winding coils. I am willing to experiment but not until I can at least reasonably get a working theory on how the stuff is supposed to work and most questions I pose are either felt to be unimportant or are too difficult for promoters to answer. It usually takes about 1 - 3 years before others start asking the same questions, so I just consider myself a seed planter
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokomoj0 View Post
I am willing to experiment but not until I can at least reasonably get a working theory on how the stuff is supposed to work
There is no theory without observation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikola Tesla
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.
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  #83  
Old 04-04-2012, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dR-Green View Post
There is no theory without observation.

You know several years ago there was this kid who obviously never spent a day past the 8th grade in school who had this gigantic rats nest of coils and he made all kinds of noise about overunity and was in every magazine looking for investors for his marvel.

He even attracted the attention of the local power company who came out made a few measurements and they were kind to the kid they just shrugged and said no thanks. Then again from a long term standpoint maybe they were not so kind to the kid.

Anyway like most of these fabulous inventions the ole bear craps in the buckwheat when us old timers come in and want to disect what they have done or make a precise copy for testing.

Its amazing how they get sick, they lent it to a friend and they will have any number of excuses to make sure you will never test or replicate their unit.

Just goes to show you that they know what they have does not work as advertised

So now today that game has changed its colors like a chameleon since there is the internet they have to contend with now days. You know what I mean? Do you recognize it when you see it?

The standing presumed principles have gaping holes in them, just look at my previous posts, feel free to answer the questions I pose or respond.

We can start from the beginning. How does an electric charge that (is moving) flows not have a current and hence not have a magnetic field intrinsic to that flowing current?

The problem is not what I observe but the claims that are being made without any observation or standing, and of course my old time favorite, cherry picking and wordsmithing..(in some cases)
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  #84  
Old 04-04-2012, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokomoj0 View Post
But we can receive telluric 60 cycles from california light and power too. So now what?

That last part makes no sense to me.

Yeh you cant just state something exists because you "think" it exists. You need to support it with some sort of empirical evidence, and a "double bump" resonance does not provide any sort of positive evidence it exists. sorry I have graphic equalizers with a 1/60 octave Q and I can put them side by side too, proves nothing.

I have not seen what I would classify "new" math, or anything that I could not figure out without adding extra quadrants. Thats my problem with all this and as we go those very pointed questions that I put up here that go unanswered are stacking up.
That part should read, "would point to longitudinal waves, as TEM waves can not.."

I can think of anything I want, I know it doesn't mean it's reality. adding extra quadrants to what?

the imaginary term is where the 'new' application would be, it is normally utilized as rotational marker. the big question is why? what is that term really representing? That is what Eric has been talking about, the power of the square root of -1, the imaginary j operator of counterspace rotation.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
That part should read, "would point to longitudinal waves, as TEM waves can not.."

I can think of anything I want, I know it doesn't mean it's reality. adding extra quadrants to what?

the imaginary term is where the 'new' application would be, it is normally utilized as rotational marker. the big question is why? what is that term really representing? That is what Eric has been talking about, the power of the square root of -1, the imaginary j operator of counterspace rotation.

So what is longitudinal about running an ac generator through the ground, say to a motor?
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokomoj0 View Post
So what is longitudinal about running an ac generator through the ground, say to a motor?
whats that got to do with the price of cheese?
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:39 AM
garrettm4 garrettm4 is offline
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Things that Needn't be Said

Kokomoj0,

I don't want to be "that guy", but it would seem I need to. Your nitpickery, condescending quiffs, rebukes and over all negative tone have caused me to write this.

If you feel that there is nothing to be found here other than to promote "valid" arguments with others I suggest doing something else with your time. Try participating in another thread, plant a garden, read a book, go to the gym, or maybe smoking weed. These might give you the desired "fulfillment" that you are looking for.

There is nothing wrong with posting questions and there is nothing wrong with getting annoyed when they are not answered but you take your "seed planting" to an over zealous level. Much like a Knights Templar killing innocent Arabs because "god wills it".

I honestly believe that you think you are actually helping and are doing a good thing, much like Eric Cartman on the South Park episode "Fishsticks", where he believes he's the one who came up with the joke.

I don't want to seem like some sort of naysayer and I don't think ALL of your post were over the top but it is the incessant nature of your posting habits, if one were to divide this (newly created) thread's posts into a pie chart, an overly large portion would be yours rebuking what everyone else has posted. While this isn't wrong it gets a bit tiring so PLEASE, show some restraint or find a better outlet for your time.

With your current fervor you are exponentially approaching the status of "Forum Troll".



Your last known position, at the time of this writing, was at time constant 1, "Baby Troll" (I would say you are the one in the center of the above pic).


Garrett M
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  #88  
Old 04-04-2012, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
whats that got to do with the price of cheese?

so then from your inference; if it can pass through the earth it must be longitudinal....or something other than tem.

therefore 60cycle ac is not a tem wave correct
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  #89  
Old 04-04-2012, 02:54 AM
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Quote from Tesla on transverse and longitudinal waves...

Quote:
"I have read the article, and I quite agree with the opinion expressed - that wireless power transmission is impractical with present apparatus. This conclusion will be naturally reached by any one who recognizes the nature of the agent by which the impulses are transmitted in present wireless practice.

"When Dr. Heinrich Hertz undertook his experiments from 1887 to 1889 his object was to demonstrate a theory postulating a medium filling all space, called the ether, which was structureless, of inconceivable tenuity and yet solid and possessed of rigidity incomparably greater than that of the hardest steel. He obtained certain results and the whole world acclaimed them as an experimental verification of that cherished theory. But in reality what he observed tended to prove just its fallacy.

"I had maintained for many years before that such a medium as supposed could not exist, and that we must rather accept the view that all space is filled with a gaseous substance. On repeating the Hertz experiments with much improved and very powerful apparatus, I satisfied myself that what he had observed was nothing else but effects of longitudinal waves in a gaseous medium, that is to say, waves, propagated by alternate compression and expansion. He had observed waves in the ether much of the nature of sound waves in the air.

"Up to 1896, however, I did not succeed in obtaining a positive experimental proof of the existence of such a medium. But in that year I brought out a new form of vacuum tube capable of being charged to any desired potential, and operated it with effective pressures of about 4,000,000 volts. I produced cathodic and other rays of transcending intensity. The effects, according to my view, were due to minute particles of matter carrying enormous electrical charges, which, for want of a better name, I designated as matter not further decomposable. Subsequently those particles were called electrons.

"One of the first striking observations made with my tubes was that a purplish glow for several feet around the end of the tube was formed, and I readily ascertained that it was due to the escape of the charges of the particles as soon as they passed out into the air; for it was only in a nearly perfect vacuum that these charges could be confined to them. The coronal discharge proved that there must be a medium besides air in the space, composed of particles immeasurably smaller than those of air, as otherwise such a discharge would not be possible. On further investigation I found that this gas was so light that a volume equal to that of the earth would weigh only about one-twentieth of a pound.

"The velocity of any sound wave depends on a certain ratio between elasticity and density, and for this ether or universal gas the ratio is 800,000,000,000 times greater than for air. This means that the velocity of the sound waves propagated through the ether is about 300,000 times greater than that of the sound waves in air, which travel at approximately 1,085 feet a second. Consequently the speed in ether is 900,000 x 1,085 feet, or 186,000 miles, and that is the speed of light.

"As the waves of this kind are all the more penetrative the shorter they are, I have for years urged the wireless experts to use such waves in order to get good results, but it took a long time before they settled upon this practice.

"Although the world is still skeptical as to the feasibility of my undertaking, I note that some advanced experts, at least, share my views, and I hope that before long wireless power transmission will be as common as transmission by wires."
"Nikola Tesla Tells of New Radio Theories"

Tesla states many many times, in all of his work, that his wireless transmission is utilizing longitudinal waves, and infact that transverse waves do not exist in nature...
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garrettm4 View Post
Kokomoj0,

I don't want to be "that guy" but I would seem I need to. Your nitpickery, quiffs, rebukes and over all negative tone have caused me to write this.

thats the same kind of dissmissalist thinking like those who say if you are unhappy with the government fix it by getting out of the country.

If you feel that there is nothing to be found here other than to promote "valid" arguments with others I suggest doing something else with your time. Try participating in another thread, plant a garden, read a book, go to the gym, or maybe smoking weed. These might give you the desired "fulfillment" that you are looking for.

Thats is your conclusion.

There is nothing wrong with posting questions and there is nothing wrong with getting annoyed when they are not answered but you take your "seed planting" to an over zealous level. Much like a Knights Templar killing innocent Arabs because "god wills it".

I honestly believe that you think you are actually helping and are doing a good thing, much like Eric Cartman on the South Park episode "Fish Dicks", where he believes he's the one who came up with the joke.

I don't want to seem like some sort of naysayer and I don't think ALL of your post were over the top but it is the incessant nature of your posting habits, if one were to divide this (newly created) thread's posts into a pie chart, a fair portion would be yours rebuking what everyone else has posted. While this isn't wrong it gets a bit tiring so PLEASE, show some restraint or find a better outlet for your time.

Garrett M


Killing arabs? Dont you think thats a bit over the moon dramatic?
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