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  #841  
Old 06-26-2012, 02:20 PM
jpolakow jpolakow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
Making several Posts here as I have been talking off line and now coming back with more detail about the basic Math to be used here with regard to the Extra Coil.

My conclusions on Tesla at Colorado Springs agree with Eric in some aspects and differ in others and the reason for these Posts.

Crystal Set Initiative Data:
AM Radio Frequency = 1557 Khz
Diameter Primary/Secondary = 488mm
One Turn = 1533mm
30645/1533 = 20 Secondary Turns but best at 17 as proven by empirical means.
Wire Length = c/2piF

Extra Coil:
MULTIPLY: Where my Math is with a working TMT.
1.557*(pi/2) = 2.4457 Mhz
2.4457 * 4 = 9.7829 Mhz = Full Wave = 30.645 meters

DIVIDE: Where Eric's Math is with a non working TMT.
1.557/(pi/2) = 991.2 Khz
991.2 * 4 = 3.9649 = Full Wave = 75.612 meters

Extra Coil detail:
Diameter = 195.2mm
One Turn = 613.24mm
Turns = 30645/613.24 = 50
Length of Extra and Secondary are the same.

Tests I did in the Lab are similar to the previous day's with regard to comparison of the 3 Extra Coils.
Instead of having the 'Intensity Meter' connected to the pick-up head, I connected it direct to the end of the Extra Coil and kept the Sig Gen level constant and measured response at the meter as I changed the Coils after first peaking the signal.
Turns in brackets is maximum on the coil and my #1 and #3 need slight trimming.

Ecoil #3 - 11 awg Turn 42 best (56) 1146 Khz 44uA - close to expected
Ecoil #1 - 14 awg Turn 49 best (55) 919.4 Khz 38uA - close to expected
Ecoil #2 - Erics Turn 125 390.8 Khz 14.5 uA 21 awg - way too low and signal dies with load from added C and L - parasitics.

Note please that Sig Gen level was the SAME for all 3 tests.

What I expected to happen here is that the frequency would peak at around the 990 Khz point and that is exactly what happened with my two but not with Erics.

You will note from yesterday's Post - I didn't Post yesterday but have the data here - that my peak frequency on #1 & #3 was close to the 'C omega' of 2446 Khz ABOVE (Multiply) where Eric's was down at 1024.9 Khz BELOW (Divide).

What my drawing is showing that there are two operating points, one ABOVE and one BELOW and to use the point below is difficult as this is where all the inductance/capacitance problems arise with small wires, long number of turns and operating at a point BELOW the frequency of concern, in my case the 1557 Khz.

What is required in lay terms is for the frequency of concern to become established before you can begin working at the 'C omega' point and my MULTIPLY method allows this to happen where Eric's DIVIDE method doesn't as he is attempting to generate a standing wave before the frequency of concern can establish itself.
That's what my drawing is showing and hope this can be understood.
Been messing with too many coils and real bad electronics over the years and this just makes pure sense to me.

I Posted this at 'n6kph' that I thought Tesla may have realised this problem but due to equipment limitations he chose to work on the 'difficult' side but then again I ask, why did he not just drop his frequency down where he could work at say 60 Khz centre vice the 95?????
He wasn't aware there were/are two sides to everything, not being critical just observant?

There is no 1/4 wave involved with any of this as we are working fully with the FULL WAVELENGTH of the 'C omega' calculated standing wave and that is why my method peaks at the 2446 Khz (1557 * pi/2 = 2446 Khz).

The only way I see anyone comprehending the Math here is to build using my method as it will give you a working TMT and all that detail is given in my simple little 'Multiply/Divide' drawing - it is GOLD, value it please.
Imagine now what is going to happen when we power this device?
It is already magnifying as I have previously explained and being a 'sensitive' you can feel the energy radiating out of this coil with the palm of the hand.

Smokey
Any chance you could show a diagram of connections/schematic, response curves, and coil dimensions?
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  #842  
Old 06-26-2012, 02:58 PM
Nhopa Nhopa is offline
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Images

Quote:
Originally Posted by dR-Green View Post
No idea. Are you sure you didn't upload any dodgy pictures by accident?
Copying the graph from Excel seems to have worked. The image is a bit small though. It might help if you resize the "canvas" in Paint. Do that by moving the almost invisible little square that's on the lower right of the white canvas, then the actual picture should be the whole image without white around the edges.
If the graphs are tiny through being copied from Excel "internally" then the print screen option will let you have it the size it is on your screen, but with a couple more minutes editing required.
Hi dR-Green:
I don't keep "dodgy" pictures on my computer so that is not it.
I have contacted Imageshack via email but I got no satisfactory answer so in a second email I explained to them the process I go through posting and asked them to tell me what am I doing wrong, i.e. illegal. So far no answer.
After my last posting I myself thought the image was a bit small so I went back to "Paint", resized the image and re-posted to the forum, but the size was identical as before so I removed the second post via edit/delete. I think Imageshack is screwing with me some ways because I used the same process before as of now yet the images are smaller.
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  #843  
Old 06-26-2012, 05:31 PM
Nhopa Nhopa is offline
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Programing

Quote:
Originally Posted by jake View Post
@ Mad,

Care to make an excel sheet to provide all the data that we can from our experiments? I was going to give it a try but I am still a little shaky on the calculations and don't have the confidence to post something like this yet.
Hi jake:
I am willing to take a shot at it. I was thinking to have all the coils design material on the program so one only provides the frequency as an input and the program would calculate the rest. I would need moral support from you guys and "proof reading" the results. It would also be nice to have Eric's calculation included in another program but just like dR-Green I got stuck at a certain part of the calculation. I hope Imageshack will not mess with Excel calculations.
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  #844  
Old 06-26-2012, 06:33 PM
Nhopa Nhopa is offline
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Excel program

Hi jake:
I just posted and then deleted an Excel calculation program because it would not open. I guess when it is converted into jpg it lost it's Excel abilities. Still, I will try to make a program, we just have to figure out how to put onto the forum.
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  #845  
Old 06-26-2012, 07:05 PM
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jake jake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nhopa View Post
Hi jake:
I am willing to take a shot at it. I was thinking to have all the coils design material on the program so one only provides the frequency as an input and the program would calculate the rest. I would need moral support from you guys and "proof reading" the results. It would also be nice to have Eric's calculation included in another program but just like dR-Green I got stuck at a certain part of the calculation. I hope Imageshack will not mess with Excel calculations.
Mad and Nhopa,

This is pretty much my thought. The experimenter would have to put together their response curves. Then they would enter all of their build data and other needed data and hopefully get as much information as possible.

This way we are all using the same calculations and no one gets thrown for a loop because they misunderstood something.

Its also convenient to look at a calculation and be able to see where the data is coming from. Easy to fudge with numbers and see what happens.

Besides where would we be without RLC calculators.

Give me a day or two to put together a template and try and get it posted here in an Excel file (with a doc extension). I saw them do it on another post. This will give me a chance to test my understanding of the recent calcs Eric posted.

I have not tried the most recent round of calculations on my coils yet. Schools out kids are wild and work is......etc etc...


Thanks,

jake
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  #846  
Old 06-26-2012, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
Instead of having the 'Intensity Meter' connected to the pick-up head, I connected it direct to the end of the Extra Coil
That would have brought the frequency down loads. My extra coil tests were based on deliberately trying to get the highest possible frequency, taking things further away until nothing seemed to be improved. Assuming I've understood you correctly then I would suggest doing the test with at least 25cm between the end of the extra coil and the pickup to allow the extra coil to resonate freely and get up to maximum frequency.
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  #847  
Old 06-26-2012, 08:11 PM
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dR-Green dR-Green is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nhopa View Post
Hi dR-Green:
I don't keep "dodgy" pictures on my computer so that is not it.
I have contacted Imageshack via email but I got no satisfactory answer so in a second email I explained to them the process I go through posting and asked them to tell me what am I doing wrong, i.e. illegal. So far no answer.
After my last posting I myself thought the image was a bit small so I went back to "Paint", resized the image and re-posted to the forum, but the size was identical as before so I removed the second post via edit/delete. I think Imageshack is screwing with me some ways because I used the same process before as of now yet the images are smaller.
I wouldn't think that you've done anything wrong, maybe just some strange error in their system. I don't think you've given them any reason to deliberately take action.

I sometimes make mistakes, upload an image then realise it needs fixing, delete it, then upload another with the exact same file name within minutes, never had any problems like this.
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  #848  
Old 06-26-2012, 09:35 PM
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dR-Green dR-Green is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
Did that exercise on my Extra Coil #1 and here are the results:

Carrier AM Radio Station = 1557 Khz
F Carrier = 2443 Khz (pi/2*1557 = 2446 - Multiply)
F LSB = 2423
F USB = 2458
Delta = 35 Hertz
35/2443 = 1/0.014326647 = 69.8
David/Smokey, I don't know about anyone else but I'm always confused by your posts. Would it be possible to give INDIVIDUAL coil specs with results, one at a time? All being lumped together along with additional numbers makes it very confusing to know what's what.
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"Once men died for Truth, but now Truth dies at the hands of men." - Manly P. Hall
  #849  
Old 06-27-2012, 03:59 AM
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So far I've borrowed the inductor (1 metre of wire) with ferrite rod from a basic crystal radio kit. I'm unable to get anything to happen with an incandescent or the fluorescents I have. Incandescents tested were a 3V torch bulb and a Mini Maglite AA bulb both measuring 0.8-1 ohm, fluorescent was a dismantled CFL, 4W and 6W tubes. I might need to make a simple (transistor) amplifier out of parts I have around to get a bit more power than the signal generator can provide.
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"Knowledge is cosmic. It does not evolve or unfold in man. Man unfolds to an awareness of it. He gradually discovers it." - Walter Russell

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  #850  
Old 06-27-2012, 05:21 AM
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t-rex t-rex is offline
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Dr. Green Coils

The secondary winding is the prime mover of this transformer. Here the system operating frequency is established , and then locked in place by a primary resonator. This in itself establishes a telluric transmission network, a basic resonant transformer with a mono-polar connection at the secondary neutral. Another transformer can be constructed, identical in every way except wound in an opposite direction to the first coil. Interlinking the neutrals of these two counter-wound transformers enables a one wire transmission between the two units. This is the basic telluric system. No more is needed than this.

The extra coil is employed in order to magnify the potential to much higher values than possible with only a secondary winding*. This however involves ratios of refractions and reflection that are difficult to calculate or even understand. Hence its complications are best avoided in basic telluric resting.

*This will increase receiving sensitivity, or "gain"

Two modes are possible for extra coil in relation with the secondary coil. Both involve quarter wave resonant rise, this the fundamental of resonant transformation. Its also known as constant potential to constant current transformation. A constant potential is a zero impedance (short circuit) a constant current is a zero admittance (open circuit). Departure from these zero values alters the coil distribution to something other than a quarter wave.

This quarter wave can exist in a distinct pair of manifestations. The first mode is when the quarter wave is distributed over the length of both extra and secondary windings as a whole, a pair of eighth waves let us say. This is the <b>TANDEM</b> mode. A multiplication in potential is derived hereby since the extra coil exhibits a higher transmission impedance thereby giving rise to a greater EMF between turns and thus a higher termination potential. All photos of my Bolinas and Integratron setups operated in this mode. It is the easy one to achieve.

The second mode of the extra coil and secondary coil connection involves two quarter wave distributions, one on each coil. This is not to be considered a half wave however. This mode is the <b>CONCATENATED</> connection.It compounds the quarter wave resonant rise of the secondary coil with another quarter wave rise in the extra coil, hence a concatenated resonant rise. This is the holy grail of resonant transformer design and unheard of potentials may be gained in this manner. To derive this analytically is extremely difficult, it is an advance transmission line problem. It might not even be possible to calculate or even achieve this mode of resonance, but we are going to give it a try. Tesla dreamed of this mode but electrical knowledge was in its infancy in Tesla's Colorado years. Also note that D. Dawson has become a zealot in drawing us back into the tandem mode of operation, which he claims to have mastered. It has come to pass that he is now becoming a detractor, his denouncements abound. I hereby ignore his posts and caution others that a confusion may develop here for the beginner in this un-charted territory.

In reviewing the Dr. Green material it can be seen that this extra coil is too large, or the wire is too long. Its resonant frequency, even with the lightest coupling, is far below that of the standardizing secondary frequency.

Extra Coil Direct: 2695 Kc/sec
Secondary, rings: 3670 Kc/sec
Frequency ratio: 72% lower
Wavelength ratio: 136% longer

Here seen is that a smaller coil is needed. However to start with, turns can be removed from the existing extra coil. But this shortens the coil, counteracting the turn removal by lowering the velocity and hence lengthening the wavelength of the coil. As a side note, both the secondary and existing extra coil should be tested independently over a wide frequency range to determine if other modes exist. All odd harmonics are resonant modes. Using the information gained from the design and construction of the existing extra coil it is possible to design and construct one for 3670 Kc/sec.

Constructing a pair of counter wound magnification transformers and connecting their neutrals can help minimize the burden of transmission to earth, a significant distorting influence. When possible this should be done. It must be remembered that this effort is really for the experienced transmission engineer, not the HAM operator, and surely not for the beginner. But Tesla was a beginner also, and through systematic experimentation made great progress with what little knowledge of standing and travelling waves in compound circuits that existed in his day. And of course he got no assistance from the pedants like Pupin. Just for fun take this problem of resonance to your local university E.E. professor, but make sure he does not see your license plate number. Is not this the way of modern society, the ones who are supposed to help are useless at best and hostile at worst? Then we have the shills?

73 DE N6KPH



An excellent addendum to this is the John Miller Paper "Electrical Oscillations in Antennae and Induction Coils" provided with Eric Dollard's paper "Introduction to Dielectric and Magnetic Discharges in Electrical Windings". It can be seen here:
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Eric_Dollard_...0remake%29.pdf
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  #851  
Old 06-27-2012, 06:35 AM
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IndianaBoys IndianaBoys is offline
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"X Antenna"

Eric,

Checking with you to see if you remember this?

There is an antenna I came across searching 5 years ago called the "X Antenna". I had pulled it down as a file but with loss of a hard drive over the years and repeatedly looking thorough all the files i have, I have not been able to locate it and thought it may be appropriate on this thread to describe it and maybe someone would know of it or have access to search information related to this antenna as I can only assume it has been scrubbed from the net.

Two brothers that were repairmen for commercial radio stations.
They would go out and repair radio antennas and equipment.
They came up with an antenna they called the "X Antenna" as it was in the configuration of an "X".
From what I remember, a 5,000 watt transmission would be like putting out a 50,000 watt transmission using their special "X Antenna".

Thanks for any help locating this,

IndianaBoys
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  #852  
Old 06-27-2012, 07:01 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Crystal Set Initiative

John,
Quote:
"Any chance you could show a diagram of connections/schematic, response curves, and coil dimensions?"

It's all there but will clarify here:
The Extra Coil test is Eric's 1st Test and only difference is that the meter is connected directly to the end of the Extra coil and not via a pick-up head.
I got what I expected from my coils but not from Erics.

Primary:
Fcarrier = 1557 Khz
Diameter 488mm
90mm x 3100mmx 0.7mm Copper sheet.
Integrated capacitor of 1200pF.

Secondary:
Diameter 488mm
One turn = 1533mm
20 Turns = 30700mm
awg 14

Extra:
Diameter = 195.2mm
One Turn =613.2mm
30700/613.2 = 50.1 Turns
awg 14

Best pick-up distance from Extra coil = 20" using 1N34 FWBR probe head to Headphones.

New Extra will be using 20awg still of 50 turns as I feel Surface Area is more significant than Copper Mass.
Thanks.

Smokey
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  #853  
Old 06-27-2012, 07:05 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Secondary Tests

Secondary Coil Tests:
Used Primary as Test Coil with 10db Attn at Sig Gen.

Fcarrier = 1557 Khz
Turn 20 Fc = 1613 LSB 1530 USB 1761 Delta = 231 Hertz 231/1613 = 1/0.143211407 = 6.98
Turn 17 Fc = 1754 LSB 1622 USB 1850 Delta = 228 Hertz 228/1754 = 1/1.129988597 = 7.69

Now, of course, I do not understand what that number is telling me using your calculation.

Note at bottom says to replace Sig Gen with AM Radio.
Did so but used pickup head with Headphones.
ALL metal gave local AM Radio Station signal but was loudest at level 5 at top hat condenser down to ring coil.
Level 5.5 at Turn 17.

It occurred to me to extend top hat upwards with following results with Sig Gen attn at 20db:
The risers were 4x4" blocks of Jarrah hardwood 290 mm long.
290mm above ring coil = 5uA (30uA)
290mm + 290 = 10uA (60uA)
290 + 290 + 290 = 14.5 uA (85uA)
Brackets were first effort and an estimate.
Criteria here was to place my hand near the top hat can and if I received an increase in signal then I needed more height.
Total height was about 1 meter where no change in signal level was noted.
Even a small nail I had out the side of two of the blocks I was able to just hear the Station at about level 0.5.
So the bulk of signal here was all TEM (contact).

It then occurred to me to try the probe head looking for a LMD (no contact) signal and was able to hear at level 1 directly under the Copper ring coil.
All metal above this ring level at 0.5, weak but readable.
So LMD component was there but weak.

Not going to agree with you that the Secondary is the Telluric magnifier here as my method clearly displays a 'something' else.
I see the Extra Coil as being a container of LMD energy just like a capacitor stores charge but we may like to call this an Inductive capacitor which only recognises or holds a LMD style energy or charge like as in a 'square' box.
So now if you had two of these intertwined in two axes so that you did form a 'square' box you would have an infinite power plant and that is now worthy of experiment as it begins to match Dr Jan Pajak's 'Oscillatory Chamber'.
Quote:
"And more than that, Tesla's "extra coil" - quarter-wave resonator which HOLDS the energy (it presents anthena that doesn't emit), and (if the spiral coil is properly adjusted) through the relation of voltage standing wave, it enables huge INCREASE of voltage" etc.
This from the Beograd people and I totally agree.

I am attempting here to show you what you have all missed out on - that 'something'.

Smokey
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  #854  
Old 06-27-2012, 07:23 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Oscillatory Chamber

Adam,
Quote:

"Eric/David I have a transformer I am building that has an outside metal around the coil and an inside metal core in coil. Think about that, and the ratio that would exist if the outer core were attached to the inner core, and how it would effect the propagation of electricity."

Think we may have a common 'Oscillatory Chamber' here in mind.
Going to have to read what you have presented but getting the gist of what it is all about.
Thankyou for your support.

Not an easy task getting a 'something' different through to people who think they have heard it and know it all.
Newcomers are excused as you have come here to learn and you may just have a slight inkling that 'something' new has been discovered here.

The only way you are going to see what I am seeing is to build using my theory of 'MUltiply' and not Eric's 'Divide'.
All the information is now also clearly displayed here as well as at 'n6kph'.

DrGreen, my apologies and yes all 3 coils are close to 300pF and this is for Eric's Test# 1 of the Extra Coil.

Going to try to get some full size pics organised.

Smokey
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  #855  
Old 06-27-2012, 02:17 PM
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jake jake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-rex View Post
Dr. Green Coils

The secondary winding is the prime mover of this transformer. Here the system operating frequency is established , and then locked in place by a primary resonator. This in itself establishes a telluric transmission network, a basic resonant transformer with a mono-polar connection at the secondary neutral. Another transformer can be constructed, identical in every way except wound in an opposite direction to the first coil. Interlinking the neutrals of these two counter-wound transformers enables a one wire transmission between the two units. This is the basic telluric system. No more is needed than this.

The extra coil is employed in order to magnify the potential to much higher values than possible with only a secondary winding*. This however involves ratios of refractions and reflection that are difficult to calculate or even understand. Hence its complications are best avoided in basic telluric resting.

*This will increase receiving sensitivity, or "gain"

Two modes are possible for extra coil in relation with the secondary coil. Both involve quarter wave resonant rise, this the fundamental of resonant transformation. Its also known as constant potential to constant current transformation. A constant potential is a zero impedance (short circuit) a constant current is a zero admittance (open circuit). Departure from these zero values alters the coil distribution to something other than a quarter wave.

This quarter wave can exist in a distinct pair of manifestations. The first mode is when the quarter wave is distributed over the length of both extra and secondary windings as a whole, a pair of eighth waves let us say. This is the <b>TANDEM</b> mode. A multiplication in potential is derived hereby since the extra coil exhibits a higher transmission impedance thereby giving rise to a greater EMF between turns and thus a higher termination potential. All photos of my Bolinas and Integratron setups operated in this mode. It is the easy one to achieve.

The second mode of the extra coil and secondary coil connection involves two quarter wave distributions, one on each coil. This is not to be considered a half wave however. This mode is the <b>CONCATENATED</> connection.It compounds the quarter wave resonant rise of the secondary coil with another quarter wave rise in the extra coil, hence a concatenated resonant rise. This is the holy grail of resonant transformer design and unheard of potentials may be gained in this manner. To derive this analytically is extremely difficult, it is an advance transmission line problem. It might not even be possible to calculate or even achieve this mode of resonance, but we are going to give it a try. Tesla dreamed of this mode but electrical knowledge was in its infancy in Tesla's Colorado years. Also note that D. Dawson has become a zealot in drawing us back into the tandem mode of operation, which he claims to have mastered. It has come to pass that he is now becoming a detractor, his denouncements abound. I hereby ignore his posts and caution others that a confusion may develop here for the beginner in this un-charted territory.

In reviewing the Dr. Green material it can be seen that this extra coil is too large, or the wire is too long. Its resonant frequency, even with the lightest coupling, is far below that of the standardizing secondary frequency.

Extra Coil Direct: 2695 Kc/sec
Secondary, rings: 3670 Kc/sec
Frequency ratio: 72% lower
Wavelength ratio: 136% longer

Here seen is that a smaller coil is needed. However to start with, turns can be removed from the existing extra coil. But this shortens the coil, counteracting the turn removal by lowering the velocity and hence lengthening the wavelength of the coil. As a side note, both the secondary and existing extra coil should be tested independently over a wide frequency range to determine if other modes exist. All odd harmonics are resonant modes. Using the information gained from the design and construction of the existing extra coil it is possible to design and construct one for 3670 Kc/sec.

Constructing a pair of counter wound magnification transformers and connecting their neutrals can help minimize the burden of transmission to earth, a significant distorting influence. When possible this should be done. It must be remembered that this effort is really for the experienced transmission engineer, not the HAM operator, and surely not for the beginner.

Ignorance is blind and as my 5 year old son put it " what do you mean light moves it's just there... your turn it on and its there"...
Yes I said you're probably right. I learned this stuff a long time ago. Now please don't call CPS..


But Tesla was a beginner also, and through systematic experimentation made great progress with what little knowledge of standing and travelling waves in compound circuits that existed in his day. And of course he got no assistance from the pedants like Pupin. Just for fun take this problem of resonance to your local university E.E. professor, but make sure he does not see your license plate number. Is not this the way of modern society, the ones who are supposed to help are useless at best and hostile at worst? Then we have the shills?

73 DE N6KPH
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You


The way you described the interactions of the secondary and primary was something I was really missing. The secondary and extra coil relations hit me like a bolt of lightning.

Now a quick personal question.

Does it bother you to describe these systems using the word "wave"?

jake
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Last edited by jake; 06-27-2012 at 03:29 PM.
  #856  
Old 06-27-2012, 03:19 PM
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jake jake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
Adam,
Quote:

"Eric/David I have a transformer I am building that has an outside metal around the coil and an inside metal core in coil. Think about that, and the ratio that would exist if the outer core were attached to the inner core, and how it would effect the propagation of electricity."

Think we may have a common 'Oscillatory Chamber' here in mind.
Going to have to read what you have presented but getting the gist of what it is all about.
Thankyou for your support.

Not an easy task getting a 'something' different through to people who think they have heard it and know it all.
Newcomers are excused as you have come here to learn and you may just have a slight inkling that 'something' new has been discovered here.

The only way you are going to see what I am seeing is to build using my theory of 'MUltiply' and not Eric's 'Divide'.
All the information is now also clearly displayed here as well as at 'n6kph'.

DrGreen, my apologies and yes all 3 coils are close to 300pF and this is for Eric's Test# 1 of the Extra Coil.

Going to try to get some full size pics organised.

Smokey
Smokey,

Please don't feel as if your work is not getting any attention. Everything you have posted has been viewed and stored and helped me. You and Eric are on a different "wavelengths" and this is to be expected in a field that is as Eric put it "un-charted territory".

It seems that you know what you are doing and if not for your coils we may not have the calculation examples that Eric has presented. It does not matter to me that you have a different opinion then Eric. It actually has helped the process because your results have lead the the previous post. I now know(kinda of, think so) what to expect and how Eric expects to achieve it. Now just because you have been unable to make the longer extra coil work does not mean it is not correct.

You are choosing a different path. I look forward to seeing you results and what you can do with them. Like I tell my good friend who has been working on Stan Myers water fuel cell for years....

"MAKE IT WORK, then tell me how you did it"


In the end it comes down to what you want to achieve from all the work you are doing.

Everyone here wants to achieve something different.

I want to: Light a damn bulb with a copper wire, and a good ground.


jake
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  #857  
Old 06-27-2012, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by T-rex View Post
It must be remembered that this effort is really for the experienced transmission engineer, not the HAM operator, and surely not for the beginner.
Thank you Eric. I'm definitely a beginner, not even a HAM operator, but I'm up for the challenge I'm not up to date on all the theory which is why I don't participate in much discussion on that side, but I learn faster by doing the practical first.

Anyway, my signal generator is 5 Mc maximum so I can't look up there for any resonant peaks until I get the non-oscillating AVO fixed. I can take turns off the extra coil and spread out what's left so it's still 1:1 ratio. The remaining wire length should then be straight forward enough to do something with.

But I wonder where to go from there... Make a new extra coil using the new found wire length to get back to 126 turns on a smaller frame? Or keep it on the existing frame with less turns.
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  #858  
Old 06-27-2012, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
Not going to agree with you that the Secondary is the Telluric magnifier here as my method clearly displays a 'something' else.
In my opinion it's pretty much confirmed, because a flat spiral works as a Telluric receiver, consisting of only a primary and secondary coil. So it would seem that the frequency is set in the secondary. I made a flat spiral before coil equations were posted, it has about 52 metres of wire in the secondary. For the same radio station frequency, Eric's coil calculation gives me 54 metres secondary. The flat spiral is therefore easy to get working as a crystal radio for the same frequency with some capacitance across the secondary. There's no extra coil in this setup at all.

The limitation I've come into with this is not being able to get beyond a certain voltage in the primary, which in my opinion could be due to a lack of extra coil, or poor grounding (most likely I think), or details in the coil construction, or a combination of all these. I can't confirm this part until I upgrade the grounding to begin with because I think that's the main problem.
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  #859  
Old 06-27-2012, 09:31 PM
7redorbs 7redorbs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dR-Green View Post
In my opinion it's pretty much confirmed, because a flat spiral works as a Telluric receiver, consisting of only a primary and secondary coil. So it would seem that the frequency is set in the secondary. I made a flat spiral before coil equations were posted, it has about 52 metres of wire in the secondary. For the same radio station frequency, Eric's coil calculation gives me 54 metres secondary. The flat spiral is therefore easy to get working as a crystal radio for the same frequency with some capacitance across the secondary. There's no extra coil in this setup at all.

The limitation I've come into with this is not being able to get beyond a certain voltage in the primary, which in my opinion could be due to a lack of extra coil, or poor grounding (most likely I think), or details in the coil construction, or a combination of all these. I can't confirm this part until I upgrade the grounding to begin with because I think that's the main problem.
The mutual Inductance of the secondary should cause a negative resistance on the primary coil, thereby causing what Steinmetz described as a cumulative oscillation.

Theoretically this accumulation in voltage in the T.M.T itself is asymptotic as Eric describes except for when the load is greater than the power recirculation ratio per second-. Check Primary & Secondary Coils. I believe this has the Steinmetz descriptions in it. They were very helpful to me in understanding some of the basics.

Both Dollard and Steinmetz give 3 configurations, where the load is equal to the accumulation per second. Where the load is greater per second, and when the accumulation is greater than the load. This gives 3 distinct modes of operation. Energy storage over time. Energy discharge over time, and Energy equilibrium over time. I believe that the mutual inductance of the secondary coil to the primary via reverse resistance (-i) is inhibited without the presence of an extra coil. However I am an amateur/beginner as Eric describes, so perhaps he will have something to say about it.


Best,
A
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  #860  
Old 06-27-2012, 10:06 PM
7redorbs 7redorbs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
Adam,
Quote:

"Eric/David I have a transformer I am building that has an outside metal around the coil and an inside metal core in coil. Think about that, and the ratio that would exist if the outer core were attached to the inner core, and how it would effect the propagation of electricity."

Think we may have a common 'Oscillatory Chamber' here in mind.
Going to have to read what you have presented but getting the gist of what it is all about.
Thankyou for your support.

Not an easy task getting a 'something' different through to people who think they have heard it and know it all.
Newcomers are excused as you have come here to learn and you may just have a slight inkling that 'something' new has been discovered here.

The only way you are going to see what I am seeing is to build using my theory of 'MUltiply' and not Eric's 'Divide'.
All the information is now also clearly displayed here as well as at 'n6kph'.

DrGreen, my apologies and yes all 3 coils are close to 300pF and this is for Eric's Test# 1 of the Extra Coil.

Going to try to get some full size pics organised.

Smokey
I am unsure whether in all dimensions it is true to say that a division of current cannot create an amplification. Leedskalnin speaks imperatively about both dividing and concentrating magnetic current. I wonder what he specifically meant by that. Much in the examples of power lines by Eric, whereby the lack of grounding causes a "growth" for quite some period of time, I believe until the power station itself "goes kapoot-bang". I associate this with a "runaway" chemical reaction. In this case instead of acid and metals in battery annode and cathode we have a plasma that has a similar current flow established, and an increase in voltage that could be associated with the orbiting "electrons" or magnets of mass.

I believe that the ultimate coil, particularly in reference to your comments and mine about transformers with inner cores and an "outer core" around the winding itself, is essentially a vast representation and recreation of the atomic orbit, whether it is an electron or two magnetic fields of magnetic and dielectric proportion becomes mute. Rather that magnetic fields of the north and south "lines of force" type, are propagating in two directions, Forwards and backwards, as well as around in a vortex like right hand twist fashion. The transformer then by inductive observation might be described as an accelerator, or rather a channel of matching geometry for a moving and spinning field of north and south pole kind. In short, the coil mimics the rotational field of a bar magnet north and south pole.

In the case of the tentative coil dimensions given by Eric I believe there is an intention to create a bias in one of the poles. However I could be mistaken. Eric's work is so much more complicated than mine.

In the case of Edward Leedskalnins flywheel and Nikola Teslas Wardenclyffe I do believe the goal is quite clear, to mimic the chemical orbits that we find in a battery, or rather to stretch and extend the perfect geometric orbit of the magnetic current (and corresponding field at 90 degree's to it's flow). Making the Tesla coil or Leedskalnins wheel a complex number representation of flowing current of approximate rotational complexity to that of an atom.

If the replication of the atom is scaled up perfectly in this way. The minute amount of energy that is available from individual chemical atoms orbit rotation is very very small. It is energy though. Tesla points this out to us in his "wheelwork of nature". He says energy will eventually be derived at any point in the universe, and that some adaptation of this system he claimed to have conceived can transmit "regardless of distance". I would point the electrical engineer and scientific researcher to the wonderful Theory of Quantum Electrodynamics (cough cough) which points out that one atom's particles can be quite entangled with constituent parts of another. It would appear that a chemical knowledge would go a long way in understanding the fundamental functioning of entangled so-called "electrons", or rather, what base that is smaller might exist beneath them. Indeed - this would dictate the geometry and the mathematical dimensions of current that would dictate our best energy storage devices.

Tesla says that the energy system between the sun and the earth is a superior energy storage system. After all if it wasn't it would not be able to support the life on the earth. It may be that much of the excitation of periodic elements itself is caused by the rays of the sun, not enough exploring has been done by electrical engineers into the realms of space, and it is difficult to comment without experience.

I cannot emphasise enough the importance of the chemical energy factor that Steinmetz hinted on. It has not been looked into enough. If all energy generation is involved with the breakdown of periodic elements matter, and the loss of their layers of so-called electrons.

Regarding the work with elevated terminal and capacitance, I have noted that North and South pole individual lines of force are of equal strength on a level ground. Which is why I still am not sure about these "electron things". I struggle to keep up with some of the terminology used by engineers, and remain convinced that a natural-system of observing the nature of the electrical sub-atomic perpetual orbit current systems may reveal a way for us to setup identical ones chemically, of much larger scale - like that of the mass of the earth itself. It appears that Tesla had this in mind. I suspect that using a magnetic field propagating into the ground is the cause of the longitudinal wave. Earthquakes for instance might provide revealing information about the angular momentum of the rays from the sun and the longitudinal shifts and secondary sound waves produced from the land masses in quakes.

It appears the T.M.T's magnification is that of decibels, or amplification of effective "sound". Could we assume that a purely mechanical system could be devised that of a piano playing notes on a string at high speed? I had an idea for a transformer whereby the oscillating movement from an electromagnet spark gap could vary the tension and distance of the entire transformer through a spring - this would be a self referencing differential, whereby the input current's impulse timing, effects the variation timing by delay. I am essentially trying to find a way to smack a string (musical note or organ pipe) incrementally faster in a mechanical way. This is going to need some "hideous RPM".

I have some experimenting to do now, as I have exhausted myself of all my competence,

Sorry for going to down with the whole chemical orbit things. Plenty of geniuses say that Electron's do not exist, that fields of magnetic and dielectric are not identical and static as posited by science, but many rarely consider what the electrons might consist of themselves, and indeed might be responsible for the two forces that appear to be at work in the Telluric technology. Dielectricity and Magnetism. I dare not compare these to the North and South pole, but I have a feeling the leap is not as large as some greater minds than mine may think.

Thank you all for your time and profound dedication to this work. I am sorry I cannot do more, but I am building a replication of the systems that I have described, and I will also be building Eric's crystal set, particularly interested in recreating the MLTA, as I have now entered much discord with proponents of transverse waves. Apparently longitudinal waves don't exist.

These science guys, they don't know much about transformers and magnetic fields eh? At least I know they are wrong about the longitudinal waves. Transformer theory is at odds with most of what science teaches. I am just repeating what Dollard and Carson repeatedly said at SBARC. In my mind it can't be repeated enough.

Next time pictures and something useful, not just theoretical stuff from me.

David, I hope you enjoyed the maths, I was overhwhelmed that subtracting pi from your pri:sec coil ratio rendered 1.54. to 2dp.

I am now studying Eric's concatenated set-up in comparison to the tandem set-up. I am working on a magneto flywheel with probably about 7 coils around it. As I said more useful things next time, but I can't emphasise enough how the gifted people on this thread could spend some of their time on the chemical understanding to how these things might be derived, from the chemical battery upwards. Please do it. Also look over the math I posted, I am no mathematician but at the very least I have discovered something compelling which would go a way to expressing the ratio of transverse waves to longitudinal waves, as a scientific and TOTALLY UNDEBATABLE PROOF base on the ratio's of surface area between the coil's and the magnification, I do believe we could formalise a design that merely shown the billions of ignorant physicists and engineers alike who do not "believe" in the Longitudinal.

Indeed if you can show the ratio made manifest, in either tandem or concatenated coils I am going to be very grateful, as will the world when they finally figure out how important it is going to be -



Best,
A
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File Type: jpg dollard-leedskalnin.JPG (86.0 KB, 38 views)
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Last edited by 7redorbs; 06-27-2012 at 10:23 PM.
  #861  
Old 06-28-2012, 01:05 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Multiply Math

Quote:
Originally Posted by dR-Green View Post
David/Smokey, I don't know about anyone else but I'm always confused by your posts. Would it be possible to give INDIVIDUAL coil specs with results, one at a time? All being lumped together along with additional numbers makes it very confusing to know what's what.
dR-Green,
I think I could probably say the same for all of Eric's information as it really is difficult to understand as it simply covers so much ground and if you are not a Ham, then all the more difficult.
I applaud the stayer and that's what you have become.

Can I have your Fcarrier AM Radio Station frequency please and I will map out your system in the Multiply Math for the Extra Coil.
Anybody else interested in also having this done?

Gets you away from this all having the 124 Turn thing as this is my basic dispute with Eric's Math.
Or you can simply calculate your Extra diameter using Eric's formula and then calculate the required number of turns from using the same wire length as the Secondary.
My calculation will confirm yours.
Haven't quite got my brain around this but expect it to be about 50 Turns and probably same as mine.
Secondary and Extra wire size the same, mine is 14 awg.
New Extra at 20 awg is Surface Area experiment to see which is the better.
The 11 awg was too large, a Mass experiment.
Thanks.

Smokey
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  #862  
Old 06-28-2012, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-rex View Post
As a side note, both the secondary and existing extra coil should be tested independently over a wide frequency range to determine if other modes exist.
Within the limits of my 5 Mc signal generator:

Nothing else found on the secondary with the rings tuned for 3670 kc.

Extra coil 10pF: There's a gradual rise as I approach the 5 Mc limit. Based on the rise towards the 2833.1 kc peak I'm estimating the next peak is somewhere around 6-6.5 Mc.

Extra coil direct: Same problem again. 12.1mV measured at 5 Mc.
Taking 12.1mV as a reference point from the first 2694.8 kc peak, equivalent reading is found at 1810 kc. So equivalent reading is 885 kc below first peak, making the next peak approx 5885 kc ??
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Last edited by dR-Green; 06-28-2012 at 02:21 AM.
  #863  
Old 06-28-2012, 05:52 AM
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I don't follow why Erics extra coil dimensions are troublesome. I'll need to dig up all my notes on the 4MHz coils I built but they worked perfectly. I'll admit to long hours of calcs and equations to determine proper wire gauge and interturn capacitance.

Here's the basic data on the coils,
Primary: .022" x 1"; 23.4grams, Surface Area 303cm^2
Secondary: 24ga, 21.8 grams,Surface Area 192cm^2
Extra: 33ga, 7grams, Surface Area 171cm^2

what's noticeable is the surface area of the extra and secondary when combined are very close to the primary. the mass of the primary and secondary are near equal.
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  #864  
Old 06-28-2012, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
Can I have your Fcarrier AM Radio Station frequency please and I will map out your system in the Multiply Math for the Extra Coil.
The radio station is 882 kc. However the plan is to next remove turns from this extra coil and do more tests, and then apply whatever comes from that, either to a new extra coil for 3670 kc or a complete setup for 882 kc. Or both.

Out of interest, based on what you're talking about, what wire length would you give the secondary and an extra coil for 882 kc? Simple wire lengths please I'm curious to know what your total wire length would be.
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  #865  
Old 06-28-2012, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
I'll need to dig up all my notes on the 4MHz coils I built but they worked perfectly.
In what respect? Some graphs and what not from tests of those would be nice
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  #866  
Old 06-28-2012, 08:06 AM
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Resonant Magnification

Today we have the good fortune of the permission to experiment in the transformer yard of a department of water and power generating station. The station station is down for maintenance and one bank of line transformers is available for our experiments. This bank has a wye connected secondary of 60 Kilo-Volt line to neutral voltage. The primary windings are in a delta connected 2.4 KiloVolt line to line voltage, these to the generators.

Now one transformer is removed from the bank, its 2.4 Kilo-Volt primary will remain unused. The secondary coil is asymmetrical for grounded neutral connection. Hence the secondary coil has a high voltage bushing for line connection, and a distribution voltage bushing for neutral connection. See Figure (1). This is an "odd order series" winding, or a "quarter wave" type configuration.

This single phase power transformer has the following specifications:
Full Load Capacity: 3000 KiloVolt - Amperes
Secondary Voltage: 60 KiloVolts
Basic Impulse Level: 300 KiloVolts

Measurements on the secondary windings give the following results:
D.C. Winding Resistance: 24 Ohms
60 cycle Winding Reactance: 60 KiloOhm

Hence the Inductance is derived as: 160 Henry

And the ratio of reactance to resistance of this winding is derived as:
2500 Numeric

A 60 cycle condenser bank is now constructed to give an equal and opposite reactance to that of the 60 KV secondary coil. At 60 KV the reactive power in this winding is:
60 KiloVars

Thus the condenser must also develop a counteracting power,
60 KiloVars

And this results from a condenser reactance of:
60 Kilo-Ohm
The same as that in the transformer winding. Finally, this condenser bank must withstand the basic impulse level developed by the secondary winding, a maximum of
300 KiloVolts

Hence established is a series connected condenser bank, of ten 30 KV units, each with a capacity of
.4 microFarads

Or a total of .04 microFarads.

Here now in the transformer yard is our experimental network, about 50 tons in weight.

The test voltage in the experiments will be 120 volts AC, 60 cycles per second, from a lighting transformer.

The first experiment is shown in Figure (2). The 120 volts is connected to the secondary winding of the transformer. The current is the voltage divided by the reactance,
2 mA

Now in place of the transformer winding, the condenser is connected the 120 volt supply. The current is also
2 mA

The Back E.M.F. of both the coil and the condenser are equal since the reactance of the coil and condenser are equal. Here however it is equal and opposite.

The next experimental setup is shown in figure (3). Here now the condenser is connected in series with the winding of the transformer. It is found that a current of
5 Amperes

is now being delivered by the 120 volt supply. The transformer is emitting a deep, powerful, growl and the condenser bank is crackling with static sparks. The voltage on the line bushing is measured to be
300 KiloVolts.
The maximum voltage of the transformer.

HOLY TESLA MR WIZARD!! WHAT HAPPENED?!!

The electrical network utilized is shown in figure (4). It is a basic series RLC circuit;
Resistance, 24 Ohm
Inductance, 160 Henry
Capacitance, 0.04 microFarad

Shown in figure (4) is the remarkable condition that the full line voltage of 120 volts appears across the resistor, just as if the coil and condenser DID NOT EVEN EXIST. Also interesting is that the high voltage of the coil counteracts the high voltage of the condenser giving a net voltage of zero.

The Electromotive force developed by the coil is the current times the reactance,
5 Ampere, 60 Kilo-Ohm
300 KiloVolt

Likewise the electrostatic potential contained by the condenser is the current times the reactance,
5 Ampere, 60 Kilo-Ohm
300 KiloVolt

The real power of energy consumption is the product of the E.M.F. and current dissipated by the resistance
600 watt

The image power of energy storage is the product of the voltage developed times the current developing the voltage, E.M.F. or potential
1500 KiloVolt-Amperes

Taking the ratios gives the voltage magnification,
300 KV per 120V,
or 2500 numeric

And the power magnification,
1500 KVar per 600 Watt, or
2500 numeric.

To summarize, today in the D.W.P. transformer yard we simulated a 60 cycle Tesla Transformer in lumped parameter form. This "Tesla Coil" developed a maximum potential of 300 KiloVolts with an activity of 1500 KiloVars. Its magnification factor is 2500. This system is not able to transmit however because the sum of all the currents in this setup are equal to zero in accord with Kirchoff's Law. This is a simulation only to demonstrate the basic principles of resonance as developed by Tesla.

73 DE N6KPH



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Last edited by t-rex; 06-28-2012 at 01:48 PM.
  #867  
Old 06-28-2012, 10:46 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Multiply Math

dRGreen,
AM Radio Station frequency = 882Khz

Secondary: (T-Rex)
Ls = 4.8*10(9)/F cm = 5442.2 cm = 54.42 meters
Ws = 7.6*10(7)/F cm = 86.17 cm = 862 mm
Radius = 431 mm
Hs = 1.5*10(7)/F = 17.007 cm = 170 mm

Extra Coil Diameter: (T-Rex)
We = 0.4 Ws = 862*0.4 = 344.8 mm
Circumference = 2piR = 1083.22 mm

Extra Coil: (Smokey)
882*(pi/2) = 1385.4*4 = 5541.77 Khz = Full Luminal
FREQUENCY & WAVELENGTH CALCULATOR
Just enter the frequency into the blank space provided and hit 'Khz'.
5541.77 = 54.097 meters 54097 mm (177.48')
Turns = 54097/1083.22 = 49.94

That is confirmation that calculation is correct as it should be close to 50 Turns.
Note Tesla's calculations show Secondary and Extra to be also nearly the same length wire used and this is the contentious issue I am having with Eric plus the 'Multiply' and not 'Divide'.
In this case we have Ls = 54.42 meters and Le = 54.097 meters.

Wire sizes used at this time are the same for both Coils at 14 awg.
Others should now be able to copy this method from the example above.

Note also that this is a Crystal Set that we are working with here and the need for a pickup head and high impedance Headphones are necessary components required.
The aim is to hear your selected Radio Station from the Extra Coil at a distance through transmission of an LMD wave through air that does not require contact like an EM signal does through the same pickup head and Headphones.
Good Luck in building.

Secondary 17 Turns vs 20 Turns:
One thing of note here is that if the Secondary is EM powered as from a Sig Gen, it is much better at turn 20.
If passively powered by the Telluric signal, Turn 17 is way better.

Going ahead with the new Extra using 20 awg for Surface Area/Mass comparison.

Smokey
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  #868  
Old 06-28-2012, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
In this case we have Ls = 54.42 meters and Le = 54.097 meters.
That's about 108 metres total. Have you been able to receive the radio using Eric's exact circuit? And are you able to receive the signal with only the secondary using the same circuit?
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Last edited by dR-Green; 06-28-2012 at 08:49 PM.
  #869  
Old 06-28-2012, 08:41 PM
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madhatter madhatter is offline
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impedance matching, this is where I think it's tripping up radio guys. Recall that the point here is to show that the ground current is FTL, in order to do this the receiving antenna needs to match the transmitter. If the extra coil is short it will only match the air radio waves, not the ground current.

So how would one design an antenna to match impedance of two different velocity propagation waves? This is a complex conjugate and a transmission line problem. This is what Eric has been talking about this whole time, not being a radio operator to begin with I'm not burdened with trying to think outside that box, however being a physicist taught quantum theory, well that's taken a paradigm shift to start to understand the true nature of the field.

I know Eric says one doesn't really need to understand the mathematics behind it, I disagree as there is very complex relations and simplifying the math leaves out the beauty of what's going on, heck for the most part the math doesn't exist to handle this. but understanding where the limits are with current equations on the matter really help in moving forward.
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  #870  
Old 06-29-2012, 12:11 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Extra Coil Multiply

Quote:
Originally Posted by dR-Green View Post
That's about 108 metres total. Have you been able to receive the radio using Eric's exact circuit? And are you able to receive the signal with only the secondary using the same circuit?
dR-Green,
Again - NO!
By making contact with the probe head and Headphones I can hear a signal on all metal apart from the 124 Turn Extra but is weak and requires physical contact of the probe head.
Eric's Extra is dead even with placing the pickup capacitor right near the wire.
My design is able to receive at some 20" away and am now refining this distance with a new Extra with 20 awg.

Smokey
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