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  #571  
Old 05-27-2012, 02:41 AM
jake's Avatar
jake jake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-rex View Post
Now we have a problem. The neon glows blue but doesn't have a blue spectral line. I dont know what to say about this but apparently there is some kind of counterspace spectrum, possibly?

73 DE N6KPH
Wikipedia says :"The formulation of the gas is typically the classic Penning mixture, 99.5% neon and 0.5% argon, which has lower striking voltage than pure neon."


Atomic Spectra
Argon Spectra
[
Now thats the color I'm talking about.
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Last edited by jake; 05-27-2012 at 02:51 AM.

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  #572  
Old 05-27-2012, 03:30 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
If you go over to archive.org and search Glasoe, you'll find the book Pulse Generators. It's a BIG book but worth having. That should be the same MIT book.

As it's volume 5 of the LAB series I'd love to see what the others are.
Madhatter,
See attached for the complete MIT series.
I have dowloaded all books up to Book 7 plus a few others, Crystals and Vacuum Tubes.

Smokey
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File Type: jpg MIT Index Radiation Laboratory Series.jpg (81.5 KB, 26 views)
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  #573  
Old 05-27-2012, 12:20 PM
Nhopa Nhopa is offline
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Theory of Wireless Power Equations

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-rex View Post
Nhopa post #528

This gives the experimentally determined correction factor to the basic design equation.

73 DE N6KPH
Thank you Eric for the review. I have a question on equation (8) in your post #404. Calculating Fo=Vo/(lo?4) for the extra coil, what is that symbol front of the number "4"?
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  #574  
Old 05-27-2012, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nhopa View Post
Thank you Eric for the review. I have a question on equation (8) in your post #404. Calculating Fo=Vo/(lo?4) for the extra coil, what is that symbol front of the number "4"?
It's a big fat dot. I think you should multiply there. Its the only thing that makes sense.

What are you using for a ground? And how are you connecting it?
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  #575  
Old 05-27-2012, 04:03 PM
Nhopa Nhopa is offline
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Tuning of the secondary coil

The secondary coil is 20 turns designed for 1,188 Kc.
Coil is 62 cm dia., wire used is about #17 AWG, .048" dia., coil height 6 cm. I have about 4 cm between the top of primary and the bottom of the secondary, since the instrument's impedance is 50 Ohms I will use a 1 turn test coil. Wire used for the test coil is #17 AWG, .045" dia insulated? The primary coil was removed prior to testing. Please note that using the ground connection did not make any difference in the readings.
Test data:
I. Test coil adjacent to bottom of secondary coil.
1.Can 10 cm above top of secondary coil and 0 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) Function Generator (FG) ground connected to one end of test coil
and field intensity meter ground: First meter movement at 0 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,700 Kc
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 402 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,689 Kc
2. Can 30 cm above top of secondary coil and 20 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: First meter movement at 0 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,687 Kc
II. Test coil 3 cm below bottom of secondary coil.
1. Can 10 cm above top of secondary coil and 0 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: First meter movement at 0 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,758 Kc
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 431 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,757 Kc
2. Can 30 cm above top of secondary coil and 20 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: First meter movement at 0 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,763 Kc
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 434 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,760 Kc
III. Test coil 8.5 cm below bottom of secondary coil.
1. Can 10 cm above top of secondary coil and 0 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: No meter movement at all.
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 416 Kc
Second meter does not move, but stays
constantly about at 1 uA reading. It
appears the movement would start above
2Mc (out of range)
2. Can 30 cm above top of secondary coil and 20 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: No meter movement at all.
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 432 Kc
Second meter movement. See comment
above.
Next I will calculate coil frequencies, but I need to know what to do with the number "4" in Eric's equation no. 8.
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  #576  
Old 05-27-2012, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nhopa View Post
The secondary coil is 20 turns designed for 1,188 Kc.
Coil is 62 cm dia., wire used is about #17 AWG, .048" dia., coil height 6 cm. I have about 4 cm between the top of primary and the bottom of the secondary, since the instrument's impedance is 50 Ohms I will use a 1 turn test coil. Wire used for the test coil is #17 AWG, .045" dia insulated? The primary coil was removed prior to testing. Please note that using the ground connection did not make any difference in the readings.
Test data:
I. Test coil adjacent to bottom of secondary coil.
1.Can 10 cm above top of secondary coil and 0 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) Function Generator (FG) ground connected to one end of test coil
and field intensity meter ground: First meter movement at 0 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,700 Kc
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 402 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,689 Kc
2. Can 30 cm above top of secondary coil and 20 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: First meter movement at 0 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,687 Kc
II. Test coil 3 cm below bottom of secondary coil.
1. Can 10 cm above top of secondary coil and 0 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: First meter movement at 0 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,758 Kc
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 431 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,757 Kc
2. Can 30 cm above top of secondary coil and 20 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: First meter movement at 0 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,763 Kc
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 434 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,760 Kc
III. Test coil 8.5 cm below bottom of secondary coil.
1. Can 10 cm above top of secondary coil and 0 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: No meter movement at all.
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 416 Kc
Second meter does not move, but stays
constantly about at 1 uA reading. It
appears the movement would start above
2Mc (out of range)
2. Can 30 cm above top of secondary coil and 20 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: No meter movement at all.
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 432 Kc
Second meter movement. See comment
above.
Next I will calculate coil frequencies, but I need to know what to do with the number "4" in Eric's equation no. 8.

The easy part is almost over. The fun starts when you try to get it to do something.

Are you grounding the coils and do you have a ground plane? Is 1188kcps a radio station in your area and how far away from it are you?
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  #577  
Old 05-27-2012, 05:14 PM
garrettm4 garrettm4 is offline
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Equation 8, Oscillating Current Transformer

Nhopa,

It's as Jake said, you multiply l_0 by 4. "l_0" is the total length of your winding, if we multiply it by 4 we get the total wavelength, since we usually use a quarter wavelength for resonance, this would make the most logical sense. Next it shows to divide that quantity into the velocity of propagation, V_0, giving the frequency of oscillation, F_0, of the coil in question.

All that sums to be this equation:

F_0 = V_0 / ( l_0 * 4 )

Hope that helps,

Garrett M
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Last edited by garrettm4; 05-27-2012 at 06:07 PM.
  #578  
Old 05-27-2012, 08:41 PM
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Comment and Correction

The following is the corrected version of the equations given in post #404.

Equations (1) and (2) still need to be substituted into equations (6), (7), and (9). Graphs should be made up also. Can someone do this and also reprint in better form the following equations. Next, taking the data from the COlorado notes, these equations should be applied to the final Colorado design, here for all to see, u, Z, etc.

Also the Guillemen line is IMPORTANT, the rest of the MIT pages on it would be helpful here. The Guillemen line is a "single wire" longitudinal transmission structure. Hence it is an analog of a longitudinal wave, or a section of a one wire transmission system. This is known as a "two terminal" network, in distinction to the standard "four terminal" network. Guillemen's rearrangement of the condensers from shunt to series greatly reduced the dielectric stress on these condenser. This allowed for a great reduction of size and weight, important for aircraft. The smallest thermionic gas thyratron suitable for impulse work is the 2050. It is an argon type so not very fast. The smallest hydrogen thyratron is the 3C45. It likes about 1500 volts DC.

As for gas diode tubes of the cold cathodes DC type is the,

OA3, 75 volt neon
OB3, 90 volt argon
OD3, 150 volt helium

and the cold cathode detector triode is the OA4G (neon).

These tube types are usually plentiful and cheap. The OA4G may be a bit hard to find however. There are several miniature types of cold cathode triodes in existence but I do not remember the numbers. I would point out here that blowing them up is not very useful, they do not make them anymore.

Finally, rather than an endless string of experiments doing "strange things" more might be gained by developing a solid theoretical concept of what we are getting into. And for the "free energy fuse box" crowd, forget it. No one is going to use wireless power transmission so she does not have to see the power line to her new "dream home" on top of the hill. Transmission of radio frequency energy for any purpose is subject to government approval, no way around it. Remember that the excuse Franklin Roosevelt, USN used to outlaw radio was the mess of jamming and interference created by electrical experimenters leading up to 1917, the day that wireless died. This can happen again in the 911 police reality, watch out.

73 DE N6KPH




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  #579  
Old 05-27-2012, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-rex View Post
Transmission of radio frequency energy for any purpose is subject to government approval, no way around it. Remember that the excuse Franklin Roosevelt, USN used to outlaw radio was the mess of jamming and interference created by electrical experimenters leading up to 1917, the day that wireless died. This can happen again in the 911 police reality, watch out.

73 DE N6KPH
So don't use RF. FCC has no say if it ain't RF. RF is for learning. The real magic lies outside RF. Its hard to regulate something they say does not exist.

Besides lots of people learning here are not in the US so what is the FCC gonna do about that. Go to war with Mexico.

Believe it or not this is still a free country! There are enough guns in Texas to cause a hurting to the MAN if he tries to pull that poop. People will only take so much...... Shiva wont be able to build her islands if the US goes third world. If we go down the world takes a hurting. That's why we are still here. We should have gone third world by now. But the world keeps taking our..... and tax payers keep footing the bill.

IF we actually posed a threat do you think we would be talking right now... The MAN knows where I/you live. Is he waiting for me to post "the secret"... before I suddenly have a heart attack.

viva la revolution.

End Rant.


sorry,

peace love and revolution.

And I do believe in a free energy. Life have been using it for millions of years. Just because we have not figured out how to use it does not mean we will not one day. We have only been at this for 100 years. And we still cant figure out why things fall.

NOW END RANT
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  #580  
Old 05-27-2012, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nhopa View Post
The secondary coil is 20 turns designed for 1,188 Kc.
Coil is 62 cm dia., wire used is about #17 AWG, .048" dia., coil height 6 cm. I have about 4 cm between the top of primary and the bottom of the secondary, since the instrument's impedance is 50 Ohms I will use a 1 turn test coil. Wire used for the test coil is #17 AWG, .045" dia insulated? The primary coil was removed prior to testing. Please note that using the ground connection did not make any difference in the readings.
Test data:
I. Test coil adjacent to bottom of secondary coil.
1.Can 10 cm above top of secondary coil and 0 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) Function Generator (FG) ground connected to one end of test coil
and field intensity meter ground: First meter movement at 0 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,700 Kc
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 402 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,689 Kc
2. Can 30 cm above top of secondary coil and 20 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: First meter movement at 0 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,687 Kc
II. Test coil 3 cm below bottom of secondary coil.
1. Can 10 cm above top of secondary coil and 0 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: First meter movement at 0 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,758 Kc
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 431 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,757 Kc
2. Can 30 cm above top of secondary coil and 20 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: First meter movement at 0 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,763 Kc
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 434 Kc
Second meter movement at 1,760 Kc
III. Test coil 8.5 cm below bottom of secondary coil.
1. Can 10 cm above top of secondary coil and 0 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: No meter movement at all.
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 416 Kc
Second meter does not move, but stays
constantly about at 1 uA reading. It
appears the movement would start above
2Mc (out of range)
2. Can 30 cm above top of secondary coil and 20 cm above 1/4" dia top
ring.
a) FG ground connected to one end of test coil and field intensity meter
ground: No meter movement at all.
b) FG ground not connected: First meter movement 432 Kc
Second meter movement. See comment
above.
Next I will calculate coil frequencies, but I need to know what to do with the number "4" in Eric's equation no. 8.
The data you provided is not really understandable. You need to at least provide some kind of diagram, it should be done with the test seyup that I showed. All the neutrals have to be connected to ground, they can't be floating, otherwise you will get all kinds of stray readings. Finally, the secondary is made to be operated with a large external tuning condenser such as 2 six inch disks with variable spacing, or a large transmitting neutralizing condenser. Need to draw frequency response curves around the resonant frequencies of the coils. Bare wire on wood is not such a good idea either, it really increases the losses. The secondary wire is also too small, but ok for testing purposes.

Neutralizing Condenser:
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  #581  
Old 05-27-2012, 09:59 PM
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Simple DIY adjustable condenser made from 16x16cm and 15x15cm MDF squares, double sided tape, tinfoil and pine dowels, adjustable up to 14.5cm gap:



Works simply by sliding the 15x15cm plate which is suspended on the dowels, the extending handle also keeping the plates parallel. The plates could be a bit smaller or the gap a little bit bigger as 14.5cm isn't really enough to get the effect down to zero.
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  #582  
Old 05-27-2012, 10:17 PM
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From Radiotron Designers Handbook



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  #583  
Old 05-27-2012, 10:28 PM
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Someone needs to make a spectral image of their neon bulb to see where the spectral lines are, to see what gasses are in the bulb. Also look at Mendelev Pre-Hydrogen Gas Coronium(corona of the sun) and its spectral lines. Its color is a living green, like spring leaves. It is talked about in the E.P. Thompson book.




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  #584  
Old 05-27-2012, 11:17 PM
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Mendelev Pre Hydrogen

The following is from "A Chemical Conception of the Ether", by Mendelev:






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  #585  
Old 05-28-2012, 01:07 AM
thugugly thugugly is offline
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green and purple color

T-Rex

Ufopolitics has given us a gift, he, as well as other people, have videod a green color, which is only visable on frame review, which then visable becomes purple, then Orange then normal light as the frequency is adjusted up into low khz, not even that high.

The neons are being lit on the cold side of diodes, where they should not light.

This is the radiant field being drawn into the circuit.

Check out the thread

"My motors got me tapped into radiant energy"

Thug
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  #586  
Old 05-28-2012, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thugugly View Post
T-Rex

Ufopolitics has given us a gift, he, as well as other people, have videod a green color, which is only visable on frame review, which then visable becomes purple, then Orange then normal light as the frequency is adjusted up into low khz, not even that high.

The neons are being lit on the cold side of diodes, where they should not light.

This is the radiant field being drawn into the circuit.

Check out the thread

"My motors got me tapped into radiant energy"

Thug
The green discharges also show up in "Gray Tube" and plasma spark experiments. And is not copper related.

I've been working with discharges for a while now. I ran into a road block when I could not find an affordable diode capable of withstanding the 1000A+ surge current and blocking 12kV. And it needs to be pretty fast as well.

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  #587  
Old 05-28-2012, 07:07 AM
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Oa4g

The OA4G is available from Ebay anywhere from $10 to $20 each plus shipping.
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  #588  
Old 05-28-2012, 07:37 AM
Nhopa Nhopa is offline
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Tuning of secondary coil

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-rex View Post
..... Finally, the secondary is made to be operated with a large external tuning condenser such as 2 six inch disks with variable spacing, or a large transmitting neutralizing condenser.
Hi Eric:
I will redo the testing as per you instruction. What I did so far was based on the procedures described in post #181 of 4/9/12. For the "Tuning setup - secondary coil" I did not notice any tuning condenser, so where do I connect it? Also I will connect the Function Generator + and - together as shown in the posting and connect the negative of the "Field intensity meter" to the ground plane. Also, is the secondary's end ring connected to the top of the secondary coil for this test?
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  #589  
Old 05-28-2012, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jake View Post
The green discharges also show up in "Gray Tube" and plasma spark experiments. And is not copper related.

I've been working with discharges for a while now. I ran into a road block when I could not find an affordable diode capable of withstanding the 1000A+ surge current and blocking 12kV. And it needs to be pretty fast as well.

This brings up a good point, the circuits for this type of work will more than likely need to be analog, the digital transistorized 'quantum' components are not going to perform or behave in the desired manner.

the downside is that analog components and power sources are expensive and getting harder to get daily. I'd like to say it's the march of progress and the obsolete tech is inferior, in actuality the analog components are superior and behave in all sorts of interesting manners. it would seem then that's its a more orchestrated thing.
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  #590  
Old 05-28-2012, 12:13 PM
Nhopa Nhopa is offline
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Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nhopa View Post
Hi Eric:
Also I will connect the Function Generator + and - together as shown in the posting...
Well, I tried to connect the Function Generator output to it's own ground, as shown in post #181 of 4/9/12, but as expected this kills the signal. So what is the correct hook-up?
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  #591  
Old 05-28-2012, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nhopa View Post
Well, I tried to connect the Function Generator output to it's own ground, as shown in post #181 of 4/9/12, but as expected this kills the signal. So what is the correct hook-up?
I think it should look like this. I tilted the one loop test coil a little bit so you can see the connections better but it should be orientated like the secondary.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg secondarytune.jpg (66.6 KB, 38 views)
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  #592  
Old 05-28-2012, 02:53 PM
Nhopa Nhopa is offline
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Thank you jake, this will work, but I still don't know where to hook-up the large adjustable capacitor and should the 1/4" dia copper end ring tied to the upper end of the secondary coil. The difference in reading is about 400 Kc.
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  #593  
Old 05-28-2012, 02:54 PM
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Avramenko Patent

Eric,

here is Avramenko patent on one wire transmission of power using displacement current.

he is using a parameter variation, the details of which elude me; but I've yet to print this out and really study it. I've only read through it once late last night. hopefully, you will figure it out.

Orion
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  #594  
Old 05-28-2012, 05:37 PM
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Secondary Tuning

The oscillators I used were large Navy exciters but a solid state version may need more turns of finer wire like #22 and 6 turns. The copper end rings are the capacitor to start with. The secondary high lead connects to the bottom ring and the neutral lead connects to the top ring. A sheet of glass can separate the two, sandwiched between top and bottom rings.

73 DE N6KPH
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  #595  
Old 05-28-2012, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nhopa View Post
Thank you jake, this will work, but I still don't know where to hook-up the large adjustable capacitor and should the 1/4" dia copper end ring tied to the upper end of the secondary coil. The difference in reading is about 400 Kc.
Yes. The 1/4" copper ring needs to be connected to the top of the secondary. It essentially becomes the final turn of the secondary.

Do not know about the neutralizing condenser. I was under the impression that the secondary served as both inductor and condenser.

When u add the primary with capacitor it will drop the frequency of the primary/secondary setup. It will get you close to your calculated freq. At that point you would add the extra coil. Then your beating me cuz I ain't there yet.

Good luck
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Old 05-28-2012, 07:13 PM
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went on a little shopping spree yesterday and picked up a couple of each,
OA4G, OA2, OD3, OA3, JAN 2050 & a 3C45.

Eric, are the 866's X, AX etc. mercury rectifier tubes useful?
Also it seems that the Ukraine has an abundance of Mil-spec tubes for sale.
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Old 05-28-2012, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nhopa View Post
but I still don't know where to hook-up the large adjustable capacitor
One plate connects to top of secondary, and the other plate connects to bottom of secondary.
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  #598  
Old 05-28-2012, 09:25 PM
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t-rex t-rex is offline
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  #599  
Old 05-28-2012, 09:31 PM
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t-rex t-rex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambda View Post
Hi Eric,
I'm very appreciative for all of the great information you have been posting lately, nearly ready to get back to work on all of this stuff, hopefully less than a week. I know you have been putting a vast amount of time into your writing as it takes me quite a while to digest everything, again thank you!

For the secondary & extra coil, is there other coax that will work well, although it would be a compromise, as the RG-316 is quite expensive. I already have several rolls of RG-8 & RG-8/U (low loss for VHF/UHF) that are extra since installing my tower here, and I recall you preferred to have a hollow secondary. Also have ~1000' of Commscope quad-shielded RG-6 CATV cable (coax is labeled as PR2712 F6SSVV 7461614), but I don't believe that'd be suitable.

Have you been back to John's in Morro Bay, there has been a PRC-47 waiting for you there since April 20th that I purchased on ebay. The previous owner I bought it from claims it is in full operating condition (stated it worked fine and he used it until the wind took his antenna down). John sent me pictures of it, it looks to be in good condition physically. I hope it get's you back on the air at full output power and perhaps I can work you someday on 40m CW.

Cheers,
Mike

73 DE WX9HV
Mike,
The PRC-47 was received. There were some broken parts that were replaced. It seemingly works. It receives ok, tomorrow will test transmitting. Thank you for the gift.

73 DE N6KPH
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  #600  
Old 05-28-2012, 10:02 PM
Lambda Lambda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-rex View Post
Mike,
The PRC-47 was received. There were some broken parts that were replaced. It seemingly works. It receives ok, tomorrow will test transmitting. Thank you for the gift.

73 DE N6KPH
Your welcome Eric, thank you for the education that I couldn't obtain anywhere else. Really appreciate you hanging in there and taking us under your wing. I'm a little disappointed that there were any broken parts at all, glad you had the parts and able to make repairs.. I emailed the seller back and forth for nearly a month beforehand and he assured me there is nothing wrong what so ever. There was only one other PRC-47 I could find online for sale, they could do a visual inspection only, and not able to test it in any way, and as you know thats a no-go for buying a rig like this! Please let me know if it transmitts at full power or if the tubes are soft. Perhaps I'll catch u on 40m someday. Hope you do your bidaily transmissions again!

Regards,
Mike

73 DE WX9HV
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Last edited by Lambda; 05-28-2012 at 10:04 PM.
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