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  #1  
Old 12-21-2011, 06:17 PM
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Dollard Reward

This is a a reward challenge. One thousand Dollards (pun intended) will be awarded to Eric Dollard and another one thousand us dollars will go to the first inventor who delivers a device that produces usable energy following the guidelines set forth below. Said inventor must be willing to release the aforementioned working device in its entirety for the good of planet earth and all inhabitants after I test and confirm. Since Dr. Steven Jones has a similar challenge, I will include him in the testing procedure which will, in all probability, qualify you for his award as well.

I am no longer posting my ideas of easily tested practical devices due to lack of interest.

After years of following the goings on at PESWIKI; I have grown weary of the fraud soaked environment of free energy. I have no love for slmm (silly little magnet motors) although I have recently become enamored with the efforts of skycollection on youtube and our very own mnsman with his extraordinary ticking time bomb ultrafast rotor.

Small scale Bedini battery chargers have not been scaled up to practical usage by the masses (that I have seen) and anything that does not produce or lead to the production of useful energy is a waste of everyones time and money. That is not to say a breakthrough is not possible. Keep buying copper wire...I have money in copper.

Anything of practical use that has been developed in the past has been buried, mostly from inventors not making information public leading to its suppression. That is, if ever such a device was ever produced at all.

I have not taken any time to try and follow the voluminous postings of Eric Dollard but I do not appreciate the statement that he expects to be paid for his contributions here and that if we don't "pony up" he might disappear.

"On a side note, Eric is not working any real job right now. He is spending his time fixing his car and writing for the Energetic Forum. He isn't trying to do all of this for free. Everybody must eat. If he doesn't get some income soon, it is likely that we will not see him around for much longer."

Many good and kind people have given him money so I want to add myself to that list by way of this challenge/reward.

Guidelines for the two thousand dollar prize.

1. If said delivered device comes out of the Math, work, or theories of Eric Dollard, one thousand us dollars with be paid to the inventor and another thousand dollars will be paid to Mr. Dollard.

2. If said delivered device does not originate from Mr. Dollards work, theories, etc.... then the two thousand dollars will be paid to the inventor in full and I leave that entirely up to the inventors honor and discretion.

3. Device must be reproducible (by me) with repeatable results.

4. Device must run entirely from one dc battery or 120 mains with power factor corrections made to prove the actual input power.

5. Device must produce 100 watts output power from 10 watts input, or must be self-powered and self-running after startup and produce 30 watts output power and must be scalable.

7. Output power must be converted to heat and measured by way of calorimetry.

I hope I am 2,000 dollars poorer tomorrow but something tells me I will have that money for a long time....please, please prove me wrong!

Any attempt at a scam will be exposed as such, forthwith.
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  #2  
Old 12-21-2011, 06:38 PM
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I'm on it.

Dave
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:06 PM
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Good news
Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Web000x View Post
I'm on it.

Dave
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Old 12-21-2011, 08:07 PM
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If someone have a device that produce 100 watts output from a 10 watts input and want money i dont think it will collect this prize.

If someone want to give it for free then why waiting until now?And why to except the 2 thousand dollars in the first place?

Iam not saying that you dont have good intentions,iam saying that it will not work.Maybe in not the right motive.
For example someone have an antique car that cost 100k dollars.
If he want to give it for free to some organisation or to a person he will not ask for any money.Now if the person or organisation make an advert saying that anyone who gives an antique car to us we will give him 500 dollars for the nice gesture.I don't think anyone will come forward.
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Old 12-21-2011, 08:32 PM
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I'm motivated. I am broke but I just happened to be able to acquire all of the parts to build a parametric generator before my bank account hit zero. I will gladly give away the plans for free and welcome any donations provided that the machine works according to theory.

Most importantly, if this machine works, Eric deserves the donations.

Thanks Orion,

Dave
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:01 PM
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Thanks for your input Tomata.

I am looking for someone who will be content to make money building their device for people who can't do it their self. If they are looking to get filthy rich they will reap their reward but it won't be money.

The reward I offer is small but is a chance for the inventor to start building their device to sell to others at profit if that is their goal. Some profit of course is necessary to stay in the manufacturing business and I have no problem with that.

I think that the real problem is that no one will step forward because no one has anything truly overunity in the amounts needed to help humanity. Either that or it is their greed which will stop them. Either case, it is not my fault but it is EVERY human on earths problem. We do not stand a chance unless greed is eliminated.

As to my motive which you say is wrong, my only motive is to free humanity from the corporate fascism that is a descending black cloud.

I'm sorry you take a dim view of what I am trying to do. It is again, not my fault what becomes of it. My motives are pure and quite simple.

Orion



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomata View Post
If someone have a device that produce 100 watts output from a 10 watts input and want money i dont think it will collect this prize.

If someone want to give it for free then why waiting until now?And why to except the 2 thousand dollars in the first place?

Iam not saying that you dont have good intentions,iam saying that it will not work.Maybe in not the right motive.
For example someone have an antique car that cost 100k dollars.
If he want to give it for free to some organisation or to a person he will not ask for any money.Now if the person or organisation make an advert saying that anyone who gives an antique car to us we will give him 500 dollars for the nice gesture.I don't think anyone will come forward.
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
I think that the real problem is that no one will step forward because no one has anything truly overunity in the amounts needed to help humanity.
What we need is something like a river and a massive generator The current problem is that people claim they own generators and the energy produced by them, so everyone else has to pay to use it. "The people" need to build it if it's only "business" that's getting in the way. No exotic or suppressed technologies or anything even required to achieve this as a first step, just a bit of cooperation and thinking.

Anyway, as much as I'd like the money to pay for more experiments and equipment, I don't think the Tesla wireless energy transmission system that I'm currently focused on will lead to any overunity, so good luck to everyone
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Old 12-21-2011, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
As to my motive which you say is wrong, my only motive is to free humanity from the corporate fascism that is a descending black cloud.
I'm sorry you take a dim view of what I am trying to do. It is again, not my fault what becomes of it. My motives are pure and quite simple.
i didnt mean anything like that.I believe your intention is noble.By saying this
Quote:
Maybe in not the right motive.
i meant that Maybe is not the right way or the right prize to motivate someone to come forward.What is the right way, i dont know myself.
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Old 12-21-2011, 10:13 PM
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@Tomata

Thanks for clearing that up! Sorry I had a language barrier there.

Orion
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:12 AM
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Eric Dollards Response

Here is a response that the lizard told me:

You can ask Peter Lindemann himself, that the Michael Knotts/Chris Carson Reluctance Generator in Santa Barbara which my Navy verification had video taken of operating at 108% efficiency cost everyone that you saw in the picture $25,000 to make. By the way Eric says it cost $200 to change all the oil in all the mechanisms in his car.
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
Sorry 8% OU can be attributed to measurement errors.

This is not a he said she said lizard said reward contest.



I am not unsympathetic to his situation but as I understand it, he has a free place to live. Welfare check. Food Stamps. and donations and asked for and recieved a $500 piece of surplus equipment. Money he could have used to actually build something.

I do not have $200 dollars to give Eric Dollard nor do I worship earth gods like so many others here.

Luckily, I have located a virgin willing to be flung into the volcano.

Bring me a device meeting my criteria and the money is yours.


Orion
My device does not meet said criteria. However I can show mathematically that it can reach over 100% over unity. It is not cheap; costing around $2,000 dollars. Yet will only yield about 200 watts. But that is at high voltage and low amperage. My original design was to run a laptop computer at 20 volts and 600-700 millimaps. I had a slight set back design which cost me an extra $235. It also cost me about a 200 milliamp loss in the current configuration. I have already taken on investors which means that if my device gets up and running that I am required to forfill all obligations I made, which means I do plan to sell it. However, it does have to be substantiated, tested, etc. before I can run this flag up the flagpole. I welcome anyone to test it. And will provide a short window for anyone that has the technical expertise to do so. Before I make any invites for said testing I will ensure the device is up and running. I do not want to waste anyones' time. I live in California and should be done around Jan. 10-15th. If I could get some help putting it together it would certainly speed up the process. Anyone that attends the testing will most certainly gain understanding in how to build this device as well as the math behind it so that they can build their own with commesurate parts. At this point I am willing to release design configurations which can then be released to the public, by attendees, on a more technical aspect. However, I do not want the design specifications to be released before it is sold and that is for obvious reasons. Yet at the same time I do not want to go into negotiations without someone else knowing how to build it, this is also for obvious reasons. So with that being said the invite is out there.
,Shawn
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:11 AM
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Share with me your concept and what you feel comfortable with and maybe it will be something I wish to pursue.

infra.rods@gmail.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnnweed View Post
My device does not meet said criteria. However I can show mathematically that it can reach over 100% over unity. It is not cheap; costing around $2,000 dollars. Yet will only yield about 200 watts. But that is at high voltage and low amperage. My original design was to run a laptop computer at 20 volts and 600-700 millimaps. I had a slight set back design which cost me an extra $235. It also cost me about a 200 milliamp loss in the current configuration. I have already taken on investors which means that if my device gets up and running that I am required to forfill all obligations I made, which means I do plan to sell it. However, it does have to be substantiated, tested, etc. before I can run this flag up the flagpole. I welcome anyone to test it. And will provide a short window for anyone that has the technical expertise to do so. Before I make any invites for said testing I will ensure the device is up and running. I do not want to waste anyones' time. I live in California and should be done around Jan. 10-15th. If I could get some help putting it together it would certainly speed up the process. Anyone that attends the testing will most certainly gain understanding in how to build this device as well as the math behind it so that they can build their own with commesurate parts. At this point I am willing to release design configurations which can then be released to the public, by attendees, on a more technical aspect. However, I do not want the design specifications to be released before it is sold and that is for obvious reasons. Yet at the same time I do not want to go into negotiations without someone else knowing how to build it, this is also for obvious reasons. So with that being said the invite is out there.
,Shawn
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:43 AM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
This is a a reward challenge. One thousand Dollards (pun intended) will be awarded to Eric Dollard and another one thousand us dollars will go to the first inventor who delivers a device that produces usable energy following the guidelines set forth below. Said inventor must be willing to release the aforementioned working device in its entirety for the good of planet earth and all inhabitants after I test and confirm. Since Dr. Steven Jones has a similar challenge, I will include him in the testing procedure which will, in all probability, qualify you for his award as well.

I am no longer posting my ideas of easily tested practical devices due to lack of interest.

After years of following the goings on at PESWIKI; I have grown weary of the fraud soaked environment of free energy. I have no love for slmm (silly little magnet motors) although I have recently become enamored with the efforts of skycollection on youtube and our very own mnsman with his extraordinary ticking time bomb ultrafast rotor.

Small scale Bedini battery chargers have not been scaled up to practical usage by the masses (that I have seen) and anything that does not produce or lead to the production of useful energy is a waste of everyones time and money. That is not to say a breakthrough is not possible. Keep buying copper wire...I have money in copper.

Anything of practical use that has been developed in the past has been buried, mostly from inventors not making information public leading to its suppression. That is, if ever such a device was ever produced at all.

I have not taken any time to try and follow the voluminous postings of Eric Dollard but I do not appreciate the statement that he expects to be paid for his contributions here and that if we don't "pony up" he might disappear.

"On a side note, Eric is not working any real job right now. He is spending his time fixing his car and writing for the Energetic Forum. He isn't trying to do all of this for free. Everybody must eat. If he doesn't get some income soon, it is likely that we will not see him around for much longer."

Many good and kind people have given him money so I want to add myself to that list by way of this challenge/reward.

Guidelines for the two thousand dollar prize.

1. If said delivered device comes out of the Math, work, or theories of Eric Dollard, one thousand us dollars with be paid to the inventor and another thousand dollars will be paid to Mr. Dollard.

2. If said delivered device does not originate from Mr. Dollards work, theories, etc.... then the two thousand dollars will be paid to the inventor in full and I leave that entirely up to the inventors honor and discretion.

3. Device must be reproducible (by me) with repeatable results.

4. Device must run entirely from one dc battery or 120 mains with power factor corrections made to prove the actual input power.

5. Device must produce 100 watts output power from 10 watts input, or must be self-powered and self-running after startup and produce 30 watts output power and must be scalable.

7. Output power must be converted to heat and measured by way of calorimetry.

I hope I am 2,000 dollars poorer tomorrow but something tells me I will have that money for a long time....please, please prove me wrong!

Any attempt at a scam will be exposed as such, forthwith.
And here is my challenge to you, OrionLightShip:

Would you raise the reward with $5 if the inventor plays mandolin?

Man,,,, you're funny... do you get these ideas from "Business Newsweek"?

Should I say Namaste not to offend the Light Ship?
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barbosi View Post
And here is my challenge to you, OrionLightShip:

Would you raise the reward with $5 if the inventor plays mandolin?

Man,,,, you're funny... do you get these ideas from "Business Newsweek"?

Should I say Namaste not to offend the Light Ship?
I am a sovereign being that has been to the other side and felt the unconditional love that awaits us all.

I'm crazy as a loon, stupid as a rock and twice as slow.

I have spoken with light beings.

You can say anything you please without offending me.

You only offend yourself brother.

Orion
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:17 AM
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present a real offer

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
I do not have $200 dollars to give Eric Dollard nor do I worship earth gods like so many others here.
You want to flash $1000 in people's faces, which you have not shown
that you even have available to pay anyone. Yet you admit you don't have
$200.

And you insult people by drawing conclusions on what you think others
believe in.

Please don't abuse the members of this forum. If you are incapable of
showing a device yourself that is "overunity" - you are probably not even
qualified to know how to measure one so don't pretend to have any
room to talk while telling anyone what they should do with their own
money.

You method of analyzing anything is questionable:



I don't doubt the existence of the rods as the one swimming
in the water is the best video of one - and I don't doubt the
existence of the kind of other objects you're looking for, but
if your method of analysis of an overunity device has the same
level of (or lack of) sagacity and deep penetrating insight that you use
to conclude that there is a spherical ship docked in a cloud ship
based on the above photo, I would be inclined to believe that
you are wasting everyone's time.

Also, if you are not trying to play games with people here, why not post your
real name and mailing address with a phone number so people know who they are supposed to be
presenting an "overunity" device to. Otherwise, what are you
hiding and why should anyone take you up on your offer?

-------------------------------------------------------------

@All, I would caution everyone here not to waste time with an "award"
presented in such a manner until/if "Orion" can present a valid contract
that anyone can download for review with all the terms and conditions
present. And prove he has $1000 in an escrow account reserved for such
an award.

He likes to use some legal jargon so I'm sure he can come up
with one forthwith.
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
Share with me your concept and what you feel comfortable with and maybe it will be something I wish to pursue.

infra.rods@gmail.com
The concept is simple. It is to attach solar cells to LED(light Emitting Diodes). This can not be accomplished through efficiencies due to the laws of thermodnynamics. However, it can be achieved through inversion. I will give you actual test result so that you can understand. I placed 12 monocrystaline solar cells in a refelctive box, so that all available light will be absorbed. I shined a 100 watt LED that produces 7,800 lumen at the configuration and it produced 6 volts and 320 milliamps. Under the sun, at zenith, the same configuration yielded nearly the same; 6 volts and 300 milliamps. I was running the LED at 33.3 volts and 3000 milliamps to produce the 100 watts. So in essance I was only getting a 1/10 return; 3,000 milliamps in and 300 milliamps out. I ran another test on the cell with 4 CFL lights at 1,500 lumen per which accumulated to 6,000 lumen and this yielded 250 milliamperes. Doing the math you will see that the cell produces about 42 milliamps per hour per each 1,000 lumen. So in essence you would need to find a light source that yields 1,000 lumen for less than 42 milliamps. My configuration, once built, will produces 912 lumen per each 22 milliamps; yet that is at 368 volts. Which left one big problem; how to create the voltage. By combining amorphous silicon solar cells in series I was able to produce a panel that fit in my 9" by 9" box that produces 185 volts under 2,000 lumen. I am in the process of ordering parts and building another exactly like the first which should produce 370 volts under 4,000 lumen when placed in series with the first panel. My voltage problem is now solved. I was hoping to produce the 368 volts with one panel under 2,000 lumen of light but obviously my calcualtions were wrong so it did set me back a little. Barring any further set backs my current configuration will now produce 50% over unity. It is possible to scale this up and down and also possible to increase the OU with more efficient LED's which do exist but are not yet for sale.

,Shawn
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
Sorry 8% OU can be attributed to measurement errors.
I wouldn't be too sure. This year in my physics labs we had to take into account errors which were as large as 10% but also as low as 0.25%, my point being that it depends quite highly on the measurement process as to what percentage error you have to account for in your data. I can't tell you with any degree of certainty that 8% is above or below the error range for Eric's experiment but I can tell you that to discredit it just because 8% COULD be attributed to measurement error is an error in and of itself.

Raui
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Old 12-22-2011, 05:09 AM
barbosi barbosi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
I am a sovereign being that has been to the other side and felt the unconditional love that awaits us all.

I'm crazy as a loon, stupid as a rock and twice as slow.

I have spoken with light beings.

You can say anything you please without offending me.

You only offend yourself brother.

Orion
"Stupid as a rock" sounds to me genius, no less. But in case the concept did not reveal itself yet, the light beings should have told you by now that money is an outdated thought-form.

However, when you say about Eric "it is likely that we will not see him around for much longer" if is missing your 2000 paper money is not fair.
If you genuinely care about him, send him the money. Undoubtedly, if you know his problems, you would know the way to send them.

But I believe, you rather thought your investment will save the humanity and marginally, bring you a personal advantage. Hopefuly, in the range of $15 not more, God forbid! Please ask your light beings if that makes any sense...

Even if those light beings are the ones holding the flash light in CIA like interrogatories, I love you and them because we are ONE. With or without MIND thinking hiccups.
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Old 12-22-2011, 05:25 AM
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It's an amazing feeling isn't it? It's like being bathed in love in a physical sense, with the warmth of the body....
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Old 12-22-2011, 05:44 AM
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I felt no need to apply the error bars to that particular analysis buddy! But I know you don't spend 25,000 dollars for an 8% return in energy.

Orion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raui View Post
I wouldn't be too sure. This year in my physics labs we had to take into account errors which were as large as 10% but also as low as 0.25%, my point being that it depends quite highly on the measurement process as to what percentage error you have to account for in your data. I can't tell you with any degree of certainty that 8% is above or below the error range for Eric's experiment but I can tell you that to discredit it just because 8% COULD be attributed to measurement error is an error in and of itself.

Raui
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Old 12-22-2011, 05:49 AM
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It's an amazing feeling isn't it? It's like being bathed in love in a physical sense, with the warmth of the body....
It is the most amazing thing I have ever experienced. I was 51 in 2007 when it happened and I never cry. I instantly burst into tears and cried like a baby. I also received a miraculous healing with that experience and a couple of psychic gifts as well.

It most be likened to an entanglement, whereby, something they are is transferred into you permanently....amazing stuff.

I was given a direct message.... Fear Nothing. Live your life with joy and passion. We are here to help.

Orion
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Old 12-22-2011, 05:58 AM
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I will read this and get back to you tomorrow when I do not feel all of this negative energy coming my way. It is hard for me to function when the vibes get nasty.

Orion

Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnnweed View Post
The concept is simple. It is to attach solar cells to LED(light Emitting Diodes). This can not be accomplished through efficiencies due to the laws of thermodnynamics. However, it can be achieved through inversion. I will give you actual test result so that you can understand. I placed 12 monocrystaline solar cells in a refelctive box, so that all available light will be absorbed. I shined a 100 watt LED that produces 7,800 lumen at the configuration and it produced 6 volts and 320 milliamps. Under the sun, at zenith, the same configuration yielded nearly the same; 6 volts and 300 milliamps. I was running the LED at 33.3 volts and 3000 milliamps to produce the 100 watts. So in essance I was only getting a 1/10 return; 3,000 milliamps in and 300 milliamps out. I ran another test on the cell with 4 CFL lights at 1,500 lumen per which accumulated to 6,000 lumen and this yielded 250 milliamperes. Doing the math you will see that the cell produces about 42 milliamps per hour per each 1,000 lumen. So in essence you would need to find a light source that yields 1,000 lumen for less than 42 milliamps. My configuration, once built, will produces 912 lumen per each 22 milliamps; yet that is at 368 volts. Which left one big problem; how to create the voltage. By combining amorphous silicon solar cells in series I was able to produce a panel that fit in my 9" by 9" box that produces 185 volts under 2,000 lumen. I am in the process of ordering parts and building another exactly like the first which should produce 370 volts under 4,000 lumen when placed in series with the first panel. My voltage problem is now solved. I was hoping to produce the 368 volts with one panel under 2,000 lumen of light but obviously my calcualtions were wrong so it did set me back a little. Barring any further set backs my current configuration will now produce 50% over unity. It is possible to scale this up and down and also possible to increase the OU with more efficient LED's which do exist but are not yet for sale.

,Shawn
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Old 12-22-2011, 06:24 AM
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kcarring kcarring is offline
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Orion,

I'm not taking sides, I clearly see both your side, and I certainly see Aarons, as well. He's got a couple of real strong points. We may not know you from Adam! Seriously...

but beyond that...

Here is a little concern that I have.

How would I, jumping into this thread and reading for the first time, not knowing you... know that you have any commitment to Eric Dollard. How would I know Eric Dollard even knows you, or of this contest. So, if part of the whole intent of this, is... to help Eric. Where is Eric's endorsement?

I agree with Aaron strongly on publicity. You wanna get in a public event, be a player in the game of embetterment, stick your neck out, don't be afraid.

I like Eric Dollards work. A lot. He has opened my mind. I have no idea why he is so hard up, his recent history... nothing - but - what I do know is, he is a worthwhile individual to me.

I suppose that would all be just words, meaningless words if I wasn't capable myself, right? So... credibility, honor, right?


So if you really want to help Eric, and Eric is truly in need, and this isn't some bull**** hoax, you tell Eric there is a "fan" who does care, a brother who'll help, as much as he can, today.... but he's not entirely comfortable with just following someone else's unofficially endorsed paypal link wondering where the f%$! his money might end up.

Tell him to give me a call and I'll send him $50 to help him out, paypal, to his account if he is truly that hard up and in need. Tell him to call collect between 7pm and 11pm any evening and ask for Kyle.

Kyle Carrington
250-494-1585

I'm not criticizing your efforts Orion, I'm saying put yourself out there. Make it real. I will. Who will, in this world? Where is the real deal, the real deal is when you it's right there in front of you, as Aaron has pointed out.
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Has anyone seen my Bedini Ceiling Fan that pushes the warm air down, and charges batteries as an added bonus? Me neither. 'Bout time I made one!!!!! :P
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  #24  
Old 12-22-2011, 07:34 AM
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Kokomoj0 Kokomoj0 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
This is a a reward challenge. One thousand Dollards (pun intended) will be awarded to Eric Dollard and another one thousand us dollars will go to the first inventor who delivers a device that produces usable energy following the guidelines set forth below. Said inventor must be willing to release the aforementioned working device in its entirety for the good of planet earth and all inhabitants after I test and confirm. Since Dr. Steven Jones has a similar challenge, I will include him in the testing procedure which will, in all probability, qualify you for his award as well.

I am no longer posting my ideas of easily tested practical devices due to lack of interest.

After years of following the goings on at PESWIKI; I have grown weary of the fraud soaked environment of free energy. I have no love for slmm (silly little magnet motors) although I have recently become enamored with the efforts of skycollection on youtube and our very own mnsman with his extraordinary ticking time bomb ultrafast rotor.

Small scale Bedini battery chargers have not been scaled up to practical usage by the masses (that I have seen) and anything that does not produce or lead to the production of useful energy is a waste of everyones time and money. That is not to say a breakthrough is not possible. Keep buying copper wire...I have money in copper.

Anything of practical use that has been developed in the past has been buried, mostly from inventors not making information public leading to its suppression. That is, if ever such a device was ever produced at all.

I have not taken any time to try and follow the voluminous postings of Eric Dollard but I do not appreciate the statement that he expects to be paid for his contributions here and that if we don't "pony up" he might disappear.

"On a side note, Eric is not working any real job right now. He is spending his time fixing his car and writing for the Energetic Forum. He isn't trying to do all of this for free. Everybody must eat. If he doesn't get some income soon, it is likely that we will not see him around for much longer."

Many good and kind people have given him money so I want to add myself to that list by way of this challenge/reward.

Guidelines for the two thousand dollar prize.

1. If said delivered device comes out of the Math, work, or theories of Eric Dollard, one thousand us dollars with be paid to the inventor and another thousand dollars will be paid to Mr. Dollard.

2. If said delivered device does not originate from Mr. Dollards work, theories, etc.... then the two thousand dollars will be paid to the inventor in full and I leave that entirely up to the inventors honor and discretion.

3. Device must be reproducible (by me) with repeatable results.

4. Device must run entirely from one dc battery or 120 mains with power factor corrections made to prove the actual input power.

5. Device must produce 100 watts output power from 10 watts input, or must be self-powered and self-running after startup and produce 30 watts output power and must be scalable.

7. Output power must be converted to heat and measured by way of calorimetry.

I hope I am 2,000 dollars poorer tomorrow but something tells me I will have that money for a long time....please, please prove me wrong!

Any attempt at a scam will be exposed as such, forthwith.

Unless Eric has one handy the next runner up I think would be Dr Meyl of germany.

meyl shows tesla longitudinal electricity transmission in 2003

His students got 3 different results at 3 different locations.

One @ +300, one @ 200 and one at +1000% of input.

His design is like 4 turns on the bottom side and 90 turns on the top side of a circuit board with spacing to apparently to obtain a specific capacitance.

Now he was dealing in milliwatts and I am sure you can scale it to any degree you wanted.

Now I cannot speak to the value of his measurement.

One interesting point that Eric pointed out is that meyls design is not the same as teslas, but if we can take Meyl at his word then it seems to work like horseshoes, pretty close still gets good results.

check out the video.

Someone emailed me and told me there is a guy out here claiming to have one working. I do not know however if it is true.
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Last edited by Kokomoj0; 12-22-2011 at 07:38 AM.
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  #25  
Old 12-22-2011, 08:28 AM
wings wings is offline
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Electrostatic energy conversion system ?
Patent US4127804 - Electrostatic energy conversion system - Google Patents

Parametric electric machine?
Patent US4622510 - Parametric electric machine - Google Patents
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Last edited by wings; 12-22-2011 at 08:32 AM.
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  #26  
Old 12-22-2011, 09:10 AM
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Aaron Aaron is offline
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Location: Washington State
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@Orion

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
to be so cynical without even asking me.

Here is 86 - 1987 mint condition 1/4 oz Panda gold coins. 21.5 oz total.

Reference please? I will apologize if that is true.

Really? Do you not agree with my test parameters?

Light bulbs do not get the job done.

My qualifications are a Bachelor of Science degree with a double major of Chemistry and Computer Information Systems. I graduated Cum Laude with a GPA of 3.63. My Chemistry GPA by itself was around 3.95 My forte was instrumental analysis.

I have told no one what to do with their money or reference please?

You are really jumping to some quick conclusions here based on one picture without knowing any of the context. What I do know is that there are things visible in the infrared that can be seen on digital cameras.

My powers of reason and logic are sound or I would never have been a highly paid software engineer.

Wow, do you hand out your phone number to everyone here?

-------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, I do not understand such hostility. More assumptions, I like to use legal jargon. No I don't ever actually. I don't know why I said that this time. perhaps there was some synchronicity involved there.

I didn't see a requirement for a legal contract from Dr. Jones. Nor a need for his home phone number. Nor an escrow account with funds in it.

My contract is here on this forum. I will be more than happy to put that in writing for anyone who approaches me with a valid device.

You know nothing of me, yet you jump to so many conclusions and judge me guilty of sins I am incapable of. I forgive you brother.

Orion
If it not for anyone to ask you ahead of time - if you propose an offer like you did, it is on you to prove that you have what you are offering before anyone spends time trying to prove anything in return - in hopes that you have what you said you have. And I'm not cynical - I am asking you to "put your money where your mouth is" so to speak and to prevent members of this forum from being abused. This is a practical request. Over the years this forum has been in operation, there have been plenty of scam artists offering this and that and always by people who remain anonymous.

I'm not claiming you are scamming anyone - I'm simply bringing up an opportunity so you can prove you are not.

I said: "And you insult people by drawing conclusions on what you think others believe in."

Here is what you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
nor do I worship earth gods like so many others here
What is the problem with admiring other people? You literally attacked multiple members in that one sentence because some people have such high admiration and respect for some people - that doesn't mean they "worship" them and inferring they do without knowing what the relationship is or without knowing them personally is very condescending and unbecoming of anyone claiming to be in communication with "Light Beings", which I am not a stranger to.

Please, spell out your test parameters again in case I missed something. My refrigerator is overunity. Do you even know why or what "overunity" means and why "overunity" is actually an oxymoron since you can't have more than everything?

You're purporting yourself to be someone that is technically qualified and therefore have the logical ability to determine what is overunity and what is not.

I personally never said anything about light bulbs but since you bring it up, an incandescent bulb is 100% efficient. 10% efficient in making light and 90% efficient in making heat. Efficiency is used to describe the INTENDED work done but the waste is also work being done. Most people would say the incandescent bulb is 10% efficient when the reality is that everything put into it is doing work, but is it the work you want? Anyway, would appreciate a clarification on your test parameters.

I have a bachelors in natural health but that degree is only a sliver of what I learned in the real world working with medical doctors that practiced holistic medicine, etc... degrees are credible if you are working in a field that the degree encompasses - but when it comes to something outside of that area, it is like trying to translate Greek with a background in Chinese.

I was writing my own software 32 years ago when I was barely 7 years
old in the 2nd grade when my dad built a Heathkit H88 computer from
a kit in 1979. These programs included home inventory databases, horse racing
games and many other boring programs that were possible with a
monochrome and text only video display and basic programming with a slow
cassette tape drive. I would say my qualifications in programming were
limited to the OS's capability but I was still a programmer, but
this doesn't mean I can take those qualifications and think I'm qualified
to analyze or understand today's popular or advanced programming
methods. The general logic is the same but the entire schema has changed
and means that just because I had some programming qualifications, that
doesn't mean I'm automatically qualified to analyze other programs that
may operate under different parameters.

Just because you have a background in instrument analysis, that doesn't qualify you to analyze a system that is outside of the realm that those instruments were designed to analyze. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Bedini's school of thought - there have been plenty of "qualified" people with similar or higher backgrounds that tried to put meters on the output and compare to the input and they never see it since the gains were always in the battery chemistry. Being that this is a fact, a background such as yours only means you are qualified to analyze systems that your instruments were designed for. And a light bulb on a battery does just fine to measure the amount of work done because it will automatically account for the heat and light the light bulb produced.

You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
Small scale Bedini battery chargers have not been scaled up to practical usage by the masses (that I have seen) and anything that does not produce or lead to the production of useful energy is a waste of everyones time and money.
So another insult to someone else (John's circuits) - as you portray yourself as some Godly brother that is all about peace and love. You have quite a
bit of judgment that you're willing to pass on other people's work but I
don't see your own contributions for others to analyze and judge with
equality. You have a decent amount of posts and I haven't read them so
I apologize if you have concrete contributions that I'm simply unaware of.

But aside from the apparent doublespeak, the chargers HAVE been scaled up to practical usage and are saving collectively THOUSANDS of batteries from just winding up in the dump, saving people money, reducing landfill debris, while giving people an opportunity to earn a living rejuvenating batteries for others - I would have to say for one that is NOT a waste of time and energy and for two, from your comment, you have never been
aware of what the purpose of these chargers are for to begin with so your
comments on this issue have no substance to speak of.
Tesla Chargers | World's Most Efficient, Effective & Advanced Battery Chargers

You said: "I have told no one what to do with their money or reference please?"

Right here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
I am not unsympathetic to his situation but as I understand it, he has a free place to live. Welfare check. Food Stamps. and donations and asked for and recieved a $500 piece of surplus equipment. Money he could have used to actually build something.
It doesn't matter that you aren't directly ordering Eric to do something
specific with his money, you have passed judgment on him for doing what
he does with his resources. You're not Eric, you don't know his life from
his perspective and to be someone that appears to have a lot more
resources at his disposal than him, I find it very cruel and judgmental
to make such comments. Again, especially as someone that is so adamant
about portraying oneself as being someone that is coming from such
peace and love. So far, you're not consistent in that claim with your
flip flopping but I'm not so closed minded that I'm not open to the fact
that I'm misreading this but at this point, it really seems you are
speaking out of two different sides of your mouth at the same time.
The above bolded comment is a real cheap shot from someone (you) who
are presenting themselves as having quite a bit more resources than some.
There is something missing from your equation of your claim about
being in contact with "Light Beings" - and that is compassion (while you
claim you sympathize - you belittle without empathy).

I agree 100% - there are things visible in infrared that aren't visible in
the common visible spectrum.

Being a paid software engineer doesn't mean logic and sound reasoning
automatically carry over to other arenas. I studied logic at the Air Force
Institute of Technology on Wright Patterson Air Fore Base not 200-300 yards
from Hanger 18 if you know my reference. This was 20 years ago and I
was not in the Air Force.
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Aaron Murakami

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  #27  
Old 12-22-2011, 09:10 AM
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Aaron Aaron is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,955
@Orion 2

Just because you have credentials in one field that requires a certain
amount of logic and reasoning has absolutely NOTHING do to with the
ability to apply it in various other fields. With common or even advanced
logic and reasoning - if someone wasn't initially acquainted with the nature
of water and ice, logic and reasoning would cause someone to swear
that as water started to become ice (much lower temp), it would sink,
when it actually does the opposite. There are COUNTLESS counter
intuitive natural facts that cannot be deduced by logic and reasoning,
they can only be known by actually doing the experiments and having
all paradigms shattered.

Saying this: "My powers of reason and logic are sound or I would never have been a highly paid software engineer."
is just like someone saying that a politician wouldn't have been elected
unless they were honest and upright. That idealism has almost never
shown to have a basis in reality.

Actually, YES - my phone number is clearly posted on just about every
one of my business pages. Both my skype number and my mobile phone.
And I give it to just about anyone that asks. Sometimes it has caused
trouble and in those cases, it is easy to put a stop to it. But for the most
part, most people are honest and genuine. I don't like to spend a lot of time
answering a bunch of questions that anyone can find if they just use the
search feature for this forum or in google but for the most part, I have
talked to countless members here on the phone about all kinds of things
and most doesn't have anything to do with energy technologies. I like
making new friends and I have nothing to hide.

Again, I didn't claim you are a fake - just "put your money where your
mouth is." Many people have offered the stars and the moon and have
proven themselves to be incapable of recognizing what they're looking at.
I'm not saying you're incapable at all - I am however saying that just
because you have various degrees and credentials, it is not an automatic
free pass to understanding the nature of an overunity device.

I can lift a rubber "superball" to a meter and let it go and by the time it
stops bouncing and comes to a dead stop, it will perform over 800% the
work that I put into it to lift it to a meter to begin with. If you don't
agree, you absolutely are not qualified to measure an overunity device
and you don't know why you aren't qualified. But honestly, $1000-$2000
isn't much of an incentive for something that is potentially priceless.
And if you say that the ball has to bounce higher each time to show
more work out than in, then you really, really, aren't qualified to know what
you're looking at.

You said: "Wow, I do not understand such hostility. More assumptions, I like to use legal jargon. No I don't ever actually. I don't know why I said that this time. perhaps there was some synchronicity involved there. "

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
Said inventor must be willing to release the aforementioned working device in its entirety for the good of planet earth and all inhabitants after I test and confirm.

1. If said delivered device comes out of the Math...

2. If said delivered device does not originate from Mr. Dollards work...

Any attempt at a scam will be exposed as such, forthwith.
That is common legal jargon with the context to go along with it. You wrote
that post in a non conversational way and in contract terminology. That
is legal jargon and if you claim that is how you normally talk, then I would
be at a loss for words.

As far as Dr. Jones, I have not seen his posts for a "reward". If it was
in this forum, then I missed it or don't instantly recall it if I had seen it.

Even the "Amazing" James Randi - as un-amazing as he is proves the
reward and has a contract. But the fraud is in the analysis so nobody will
ever win it.

Your contract "with this forum" is not legally binding. It would have to
be actually signed with a real name and address and not an anonymous
user name.

My personal ethos states that I am my word and I expect others to
honor their own word as themselves. But I don't expect anyone to risk
a potential fortune in parts, research, etc... for something in return for
$1-2k - so please reconsider what you are actually asking for. I have many
contracts with many members in this form for various things and I have
violated ZERO of them. I respect people's privacy and my word to honor
the contract. Please don't come back with a counter that I wouldn't
need a contract if I was all about honoring a word - it is common
protocol and anyone that won't do it has something to hide.

I don't know anything of you - how can I when you remain anonymous?

Things you are incapable of? You have insulted members of this forum,
that is about it. Whether or not you think your credentials are valid to
examine anything you want to see are a matter of opinion and I can't
fault you for that. But you have indeed spoken with ill spirit about both
Bedini's circuits when he has tirelessly put a lot of information in to the
public domain and Eric's financial situation by pretending to know what
he could have done with money available as if you really knew anything
about his situation.

Please don't come back with "could" do with the money as an out to say
you never said what he "should" have done with his money. By even
mentioning that lacks any kind of compassion and/or wherewithal to
understand the nature of not only the technologies but the people involved.

There is nothing you need to forgive me for. You are the one that I
believe owes both John Bedini and Eric Dollard an apology. By stating
you forgive me means I did something to wrong you, which I haven't.
My above message should spell that out.

The only reason I'm investing this time into this message is because I
can feel you have honest intent here, but I believe you could put more
consideration into your words. Not that you have to walk on eggshells,
but when making snide remarks about others beliefs and works without
really having a basis for understanding them while playing the part of
coming from the heart with Love, I simply have to call you on it.

Trout Lake is only 300 miles from me but I don't have to go that far to
witness what is shown to me.
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Aaron Murakami

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  #28  
Old 12-22-2011, 04:38 PM
OrionLightShip's Avatar
OrionLightShip OrionLightShip is offline
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Posts: 414
Two parts

I am glad that you have calmed down and willing to have a discussion on a higher level. I am also very pleasantly surprised to see that everyone of your followers did not jump on the "kill Orion" bandwagon which is the normal state of any other forum I ever tried to communicate on. That shows a much more mature and higher spiritual level than I believed existed here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Just because you have credentials in one field that requires a certain
amount of logic and reasoning has absolutely NOTHING do to with the
ability to apply it in various other fields.
That statement is both true and false. I have a degree. That means nothing. A degree is nothing but a license to learn. It means that I now know how to do research and apply logic to any situation or condition. It doesn't mean I am always correct, but have the ability to learn from my mistakes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
There are COUNTLESS counter
intuitive natural facts that cannot be deduced by logic and reasoning,
they can only be known by actually doing the experiments and having
all paradigms shattered.
You need logic and reasoning to discern what you are really observing when actually doing experiments. The biggest unknown that I see in the physical reality is the true nature of capacitance. You see one thing through experimentation, but know not what is really happening on a quantum level. If you state that you know through observation, you have deluded yourself already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Saying this: "My powers of reason and logic are sound or I would never have been a highly paid software engineer."
is just like someone saying that a politician wouldn't have been elected
unless they were honest and upright. That idealism has almost never
shown to have a basis in reality.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Actually, YES - my phone number is clearly posted on just about every one of my business pages. Both my skype number and my mobile phone.
And I give it to just about anyone that asks. Sometimes it has caused
trouble and in those cases, it is easy to put a stop to it. But for the most
part, most people are honest and genuine. I don't like to spend a lot of time
answering a bunch of questions that anyone can find if they just use the
search feature for this forum or in google but for the most part, I have
talked to countless members here on the phone about all kinds of things
and most doesn't have anything to do with energy technologies. I like
making new friends and I have nothing to hide.
I have nothing to hide, but I choose to not put my phone number out in the public domain.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Again, I didn't claim you are a fake - just "put your money where your
mouth is."
You said quite a bit more than that and some of it was quite offensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Many people have offered the stars and the moon and have proven themselves to be incapable of recognizing what they're looking at.
I'm not saying you're incapable at all - I am however saying that just
because you have various degrees and credentials, it is not an automatic
free pass to understanding the nature of an overunity device.
I do not need a degree or a free pass to understand the nature of anything. All forms of energy I am interested in are reducible to heat. It is my biggest pet peeve about this field. Everyone that claims to be an authority continues the same path as those before them have. Calorimetry is the thing that works. Light bulbs and spikes on a scope mean nothing. RMS values at rf mean nothing. That is why they used to use the hot wire ammeter. Charge on a capacitor is valid, but then again can be reduced to heat. Heat does not lie and cannot fool. DC in...Heat out...it is what works and should become the adopted standard....unless of course you have a better way???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
I can lift a rubber "superball" to a meter and let it go and by the time it
stops bouncing and comes to a dead stop, it will perform over 800% the
work that I put into it to lift it to a meter to begin with. If you don't
agree, you absolutely are not qualified to measure an overunity device
and you don't know why you aren't qualified.
The question is not about whether something is OU or not. The question is can you then take that 800% and produce more energy than you put into it. If so, you have a handy little generator that you can heat your home with. If not then you have only a cute little bouncing ball.
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  #29  
Old 12-22-2011, 04:39 PM
OrionLightShip's Avatar
OrionLightShip OrionLightShip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
But honestly, $1000-$2000
isn't much of an incentive for something that is potentially priceless.
And if you say that the ball has to bounce higher each time to show
more work out than in, then you really, really, aren't qualified to know what
you're looking at.
I covered the money issue in a previous post. It is merely an incentive for someone to come out that needs help getting it out. Should I then offer 40,000 to help with manufacturing something I have never seen with so much fraud in the field?? Think I will pass on that.

Again with the ball and I am not qualified to know what I see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
You said: "Wow, I do not understand such hostility. More assumptions, I like to use legal jargon. No I don't ever actually. I don't know why I said that this time. perhaps there was some synchronicity involved there. "

That is common legal jargon with the context to go along with it. You wrote
that post in a non conversational way and in contract terminology. That
is legal jargon and if you claim that is how you normally talk, then I would
be at a loss for words.
Ok you got me. Like I said; I do not normally talk like that. Perhaps, I was trying too hard or wishing to express that I was serious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
As far as Dr. Jones, I have not seen his posts for a "reward". If it was
in this forum, then I missed it or don't instantly recall it if I had seen it.
It was as of yesterday still on the front page. Now on the second page. Please read it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Even the "Amazing" James Randi - as un-amazing as he is proves the
reward and has a contract. But the fraud is in the analysis so nobody will
ever win it.
Please do not compare me to that joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Your contract "with this forum" is not legally binding. It would have to
be actually signed with a real name and address and not an anonymous
user name.
Actually, the contract is legally binding. A verbal contract is binding and many lawsuits have been won on that basis. No signature required. I am good for what I say...we do business on a handshake where I am from in the South. As I said last night, I will be more than happy to sign an agreement with any individual or group that comes forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
My personal ethos states that I am my word and I expect others to
honor their own word as themselves. But I don't expect anyone to risk
a potential fortune in parts, research, etc... for something in return for
$1-2k - so please reconsider what you are actually asking for. I have many
contracts with many members in this form for various things and I have
violated ZERO of them. I respect people's privacy and my word to honor
the contract. Please don't come back with a counter that I wouldn't
need a contract if I was all about honoring a word - it is common
protocol and anyone that won't do it has something to hide.

I don't know anything of you - how can I when you remain anonymous?
Already covered. I am asking for no one to invest anything. I only offer help for those already there, and they are not obligated to even speak to me. They can choose to keep it to themselves. They can follow the path of those before them and try to get a patent. I wish them all the luck they need and more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Things you are incapable of? You have insulted members of this forum,
that is about it. Whether or not you think your credentials are valid to
examine anything you want to see are a matter of opinion and I can't
fault you for that. But you have indeed spoken with ill spirit about both
Bedini's circuits when he has tirelessly put a lot of information in to the
public domain and Eric's financial situation by pretending to know what
he could have done with money available as if you really knew anything
about his situation.

Please don't come back with "could" do with the money as an out to say
you never said what he "should" have done with his money. By even
mentioning that lacks any kind of compassion and/or wherewithal to
understand the nature of not only the technologies but the people involved.

There is nothing you need to forgive me for. You are the one that I
believe owes both John Bedini and Eric Dollard an apology. By stating
you forgive me means I did something to wrong you, which I haven't.
My above message should spell that out.

The only reason I'm investing this time into this message is because I
can feel you have honest intent here, but I believe you could put more
consideration into your words. Not that you have to walk on eggshells,
but when making snide remarks about others beliefs and works without
really having a basis for understanding them while playing the part of
coming from the heart with Love, I simply have to call you on it.

Trout Lake is only 300 miles from me but I don't have to go that far to
witness what is shown to me.
Clearly we have some differences of opinion. If you wish to call a refrigerator, operating with a conventional motor and conventional compressor overunity, then that is your business, but my electric bill belies something else is going on there. If you wish to point to a bouncing ball and call that OU then again we will differ. I only seek useable energy and will call nothing else OU. If, in your mind, that makes me incompetent to measure dc in and heat out, then we clearly have a huge disconnect.

John Bedini is a big boy. There is no need for you to take on his offense. I do not believe what I said was an insult. I certainly did not intend for it to be. If it was taken the wrong way, then I do apologize. I was merely trying to make the point that from a standpoint of initial outlay versus return, it is simply not a system that one would use as a means of powering their home and does not therefore, meet the criteria that I search for. If someone has in fact done that in a cost effective way, then I wish them well and would love to see it.

As to Mr. Dollard, as long as he makes unreasonable demands on the good people of this community, I feel I have a right to speak my mind about that. However, this is your forum and your business platform, and as such it is not a democracy so I will agree to this. I will never speak his name again unless it is to congratulate him for winning my award. I truly do wish him well. I have a problem with anyone so highly revered as to be beyond reproach. It is my problem and so I will shut up and everyone can do what they will.

I would appreciate in return that he refrain from cutting and pasting into a thread I have started without speaking a word to me or offering any real help or answers to questions I have asked.

You, last night, without knowing anything about me, treated me in the same manner as you say I have treated he whose name I must never speak. But I do understand why and I really don't take offense.

I grow weary of defending myself and promise to be a better citizen. You are completely correct in your analysis of my need to choose my words more carefully.

I am sorry to all those I have offended.

As you stated above, someone who has the real deal has something priceless. Priceless should be defined as something given freely without a price.

My paltry, insignificant, and unworthy offer still stands.

Orion
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Old 12-22-2011, 05:49 PM
Kokomoj0's Avatar
Kokomoj0 Kokomoj0 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrionLightShip View Post
I do not need a degree or a free pass to understand the nature of anything. All forms of energy I am interested in are reducible to heat. It is my biggest pet peeve about this field. Everyone that claims to be an authority continues the same path as those before them have. Calorimetry is the thing that works. Light bulbs and spikes on a scope mean nothing. RMS values at rf mean nothing. That is why they used to use the hot wire ammeter. Charge on a capacitor is valid, but then again can be reduced to heat. Heat does not lie and cannot fool. DC in...Heat out...it is what works and should become the adopted standard....unless of course you have a better way???

I am not jumping into the debate going on here but as a side note what you said here is my biggest gripe about ou'ers.

I have posted on literally every board that these guys do not know how to accurate measure their devices.

I even went so far as to draw up a little hi Z integrator for these guys to show them what it takes.

Maybe that is why every ou device I have ever made was not in reality ou?

In fact when ever someone claims ou, I usually need go no further than look at how they are measuring their work.

You are bang on target here btw
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Last edited by Kokomoj0; 12-22-2011 at 05:54 PM.
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