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View Full Version : capacitor choice for Bedini classic 3-pole (conference 3-pole)


meehow.kailan
01-01-2011, 01:06 AM
I'm am currently experimenting with the Bedini Classic (conference) 3-pole device.

After reading more and more about this technology I'm realizing that having a charging capacitor to zap the charging battery is the way to go, however, I don't know what kind of capacitor to use.

If I am using two 12V 7AH SLA batteries, one for the Primary and one for Charging, what is the recommended capacitor?

is it better to have a 600V 10uF pulsed at 10Hz? or 25V 10,000uf at some other frequency?

I'm sure there's lots of different choices based on set up but I'm just wondering where to start.

Also, can I feed back the capacitor pulses into the Primary battery? or should I avoid that all together.

thank you in advance.

FRC
01-01-2011, 01:40 AM
I am not sure myself, but the one they use for the inverted circuit, with
some of the Bedini kits going to the charging battery is 10uf 250v Datasheet PDF



FRC

FRC
01-01-2011, 01:52 AM
I guess that document.pdf didn't come through. You can find it near the
bottom parts section at Renaissance Charge CREDIT CARD ORDERING CENTER (http://www.potentialtec.com/)



FRC

Mark
01-01-2011, 02:45 AM
With all the testing I have done I have never found that dumping a capacitor into a secondary battery was more effective then letting the spikes go directly into the secondary battery. I would be interested if anyone has found anything different.

Mark

Farmhand
01-01-2011, 01:17 PM
Hi meehow.kailan, I agree with Mark, allthough capacitor dischargers have thier uses and it's worth having a cap discharger for your Three Pole.

In my opinion, which is formed from experimenting and research, I think there are two best ways to go. The capacitors should be at least 250 volt as the spike would be over 100 volts most likely. A 25 volt electrolytic cap won't like that.

1. A small capacitance dumped at fairly high relative voltage, say 10uf at 24 to 48 volts or so even higher, this would give the battery a sharp jab of reletively low energy. Most use non polarized "audio crossover" type caps for this. As FRC linked.

2. A large capacitance dumped at a few volts over the battery, say 400uf to a few thousand uf at anywhere from 2 to 6 volts or more above the battery. This would give the battery a big thump of a fair bit of energy. And produce some amps. Electrolytic caps for this.

My preference is number two. I have charged 75 000 uf of caps to 48 volts and when dumped to a battery I see 3.5 amps of cuurent pulse. Which impressed me.:)

I have tried the inbetween ground with little success.

For 7 Ah batteries I would suggest a 400 volt 470 uf or so cap dumped at 18 to 24 volts. I think Truth in Heart has some 500 uf caps for sale and the prices are good there. Having said that its not as easy as it sounds sometimes. Depending on the method to trigger the dump and the device used for switching. It is usually best to switch the negative line because the spikes can be absorbed by the battery a bit as the cap gets full. No switching device in the positive line kinda thing. It can be done both ways though. I don't use timers to dump yet, I try to have the rising voltage trigger the switch to dump.

Hope that helps.

Regards.

P.S. I don't think the actual frequency is as important as the efficiency or effectiveness of the power transfer and the effect it has on the battery, overall. I would liken the first method to another type of spiking and the second to current pulsing.

minoly
01-01-2011, 04:15 PM
Meehow,
the difference is night and day. if you are not seeing better charging, you are doing something wrong. the add on gear kit comes w/ cap and ckt and timing wheel for cap dump.
Accessory gear YouTube - 3 Pole Monopole Gear Kit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZHLw81zoIo)
you can find it at the potential tech site. difficult to build yourself at that price.
however, we did do it w/ legos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npoGcZJBTi4:cheers:

Mark
01-01-2011, 04:53 PM
Meehow,
the difference is night and day. if you are not seeing better charging, you are doing something wrong. the add on gear kit comes w/ cap and ckt and timing wheel for cap dump.
Accessory gear YouTube - 3 Pole Monopole Gear Kit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZHLw81zoIo)
you can find it at the potential tech site. difficult to build yourself at that price.
however, we did do it w/ legos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npoGcZJBTi4:cheers:

Minoly,

Are you saying that you get better charging with a cap dump setup? If you are then have you used a battery that was discharged down to around 12.2 volts? And after charging up to a certain voltage let the battery rest for say 12hrs and check the resting voltage? Do 2 timed charges with a discharged battery and a 12 hr rest period, one with the cap discharge and one without and see what your results are. I have never had better charging with the camp dump and I have tried different cap sizes and different amp dump sizes. With a fully charged battery it may appear that it charges faster at times but I have found that not to be the case.

Mark

kippered
01-01-2011, 05:18 PM
@ meehow good question.

I look forward to having some spare time over the next few days and plan to start testing with cap dumping. My plan is to cap dump from the gen coil back into the drive batt at a voltage level somewhere around 14V via a bridge rectifier and a SCR. At a post from Farmhand on the other thread I am going to be very careful in picking my SCR as the trick is in getting them to shutoff at the right voltage level.

I am picking the primary battery because my guess is that the gen coil power is standard 'hot' current and when coupled to the drive battery will only add some extra juice or run time to the drive circuit which uses the 'hot' type power to establish the magnetic field.

Anyhow LOTS to test and catch up on, will post most of my results over here:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6932-3-pole-kit-rennaissance-meeting.html

Thanks all for the continued input :cheers: lets make 2011 a fun one and a revolutionary one!

minoly
01-01-2011, 05:39 PM
Minoly,

Are you saying that you get better charging with a cap dump setup? If you are then have you used a battery that was discharged down to around 12.2 volts? And after charging up to a certain voltage let the battery rest for say 12hrs and check the resting voltage? Do 2 timed charges with a discharged battery and a 12 hr rest period, one with the cap discharge and one without and see what your results are. I have never had better charging with the camp dump and I have tried different cap sizes and different amp dump sizes. With a fully charged battery it may appear that it charges faster at times but I have found that not to be the case.

Mark

I just re-read that for tone - that was a horrible post - sorry :peaceflag:
have you played around with the timing of the cap dump - timing is everything - pay close attention to where exactly you are dumping relative to the N/S magnet pass - remember the invisible scalar south. Also, try ditching the trigger coil - use a hall for trigger.:cheers:

Mark
01-01-2011, 07:25 PM
I just re-read that for tone - that was a horrible post - sorry :peaceflag:
have you played around with the timing of the cap dump - timing is everything - pay close attention to where exactly you are dumping relative to the N/S magnet pass - remember the invisible scalar south. Also, try ditching the trigger coil - use a hall for trigger.:cheers:

Minoly,

I am talking about dumping into a secondary battery. It is irrelevent where the magnets are or the scalar south is or even the hall trigger. I'm just talking about the charging method itself of using a cap dump setup compared to just using the spikes. I use an SCR and it is self triggered by the charge.

Have you personally found cap dumping to be more efficient then using the spike directly into a secondary battery? If you have then I recommend you perform the test I suggested before to verify your findings.

Please dont take this as an attack I'm just interested if others have found something different then me. :thumbsup:

Mark

minoly
01-01-2011, 10:57 PM
Minoly,

I am talking about dumping into a secondary battery. It is irrelevent where the magnets are or the scalar south is or even the hall trigger. I'm just talking about the charging method itself of using a cap dump setup compared to just using the spikes. I use an SCR and it is self triggered by the charge.

Have you personally found cap dumping to be more efficient then using the spike directly into a secondary battery? If you have then I recommend you perform the test I suggested before to verify your findings.

Please dont take this as an attack I'm just interested if others have found something different then me. :thumbsup:

Mark
That is exactly what I am talking about :thumbsup:

Meehow,
the kit comes w/ something like this:
400V 560UF Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitor
hope this helps...

greekstile
01-02-2011, 01:27 AM
Hi all. Been a member here for a bit, but mostly lurking. I post more on the bm2 group.

Anyway, some good discussion on the 3pm. Just wanted to chime in. I think its important that we distinguish between the cap dump ckt with the timing wheel and the cap pulser ckt. While similarly featured, they are different. I have run both on the 3pm.

The cap dump w/timing wheel is run off the generator coil, dumped to a cap via FWBR, timed and dumped via reed to the primary, secondary, or another battery. You find out pretty quickly that the one generator coil doesn't give you much power. But add in 2 more in series with the first, and you get some serious voltage. The problem quickly becomes the reed switching. The reed ends up sticking. Its just not a good method to trigger the dump here. Suggestions welcome for alternatives. Now, the beauty of this setup comes from the drag induced by the 3 generator coils. If you have done your homework, you will find a sweet spot not only in trigger resistance, but also rpm. So this setup not only gives you extra charging power through the circuit itself, it also boosts the charging to the secondary as well by allowing you to keep the motor from speeding up out of that sweet spot.

The cap pulser is the the back end circuit dumped into a cap via FWBR and dumped via 555/SCR into charging battery. I haven't had enough time to test charging compared to straight radiant ssg charging. However, in the limited runs i have done, charging is faster. Also, in this configuration, you can rotate the batteries, which you cannot do in a traditional ssg setup. Or, heck, just dump it right back to primary. Another cool thing about this setup, you could run it off the regular ssg output, or isolated via a secondary winding.

Either way, both of these circuits offer advantages and flexibility when added onto the ssg.

Just my 2cents.

Happy new year all!

Jason S.

Mark
01-02-2011, 02:03 AM
[QUOTE=minoly;124008]That is exactly what I am talking about :thumbsup:

What do you mean by this?

You still have not answered my question. Have you personally found cap dumping to be more efficient then using the spike directly into a secondary battery?

FRC
01-02-2011, 04:25 AM
Meehow, you maybe interested in this video. I think it relates to your question.

YouTube - bedini 3pole mono with scr cap dec28 2010.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySGOTYsH9jw)


FRC

minoly
01-02-2011, 07:07 AM
You can use that timing wheel to do both - dump the Ginny-generator-pick-up-coil as well as the radiant “cap pulser” style dump. You don’t have to use a reed either, use a hall, use an opto switch, slap a piece of copper on there and use a couple of brushes…. You can use that wheel to time multiple devices, use it to power off the energizer while backpopping the primary… the only limit is our imagination.

There are a few reasons your reed will stick, very high voltage and current are a couple, you can switch more often and add a magnet to the reed - watch this vid - see how he uses magnets in proximity to reeds - and look up reed switching.
YouTube - Magluvin's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/Magluvin#p/u/43/vOMzSpPHFo0)
It’s all in the balance, that’s why JB wants people to learn not replicate.

@ all we are not that fond of the SCR cap dump, it does work better than directly to the battery due to the lower impedance of an appropriate capacitor, however there are more benefits to be taken advantage of with timing if you use the wheel.

@Mark, yes, that is exactly what I’m talking about.

Mark
01-02-2011, 01:52 PM
Minoly your the first person I've heard say they got better charging with cap dumping. Most of my testing was done with a solid state set up, so there was no rotor or timing issues.

I would like to hear if anyone else has tested cap dumping compared to straight spike charging. I even remember reading somewhere that JB had gone back to to spike charging because it worked better than the cap duming.

Mark

minoly
01-02-2011, 03:43 PM
Mark,
Can you point to where JB mentions this?
try reading everything JB has to say in this thread:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6786-bedini-ferris-wheel-regauging-motor.html
try watching some of his EFV vids.

:cheers:

Mark
01-02-2011, 05:40 PM
I cant locate where I saw this. I thought it was in one of the energy series videos where he showed his 10 coiler and all the light bulbs, but after watching it again I didn't see it. It was probably a year ago that I saw it or read it somewhere. Maybe I'm incorrect. Storing the radiant charge in a cap supposedly converts it to conventional energy, or am I mistaken here also?

I have been reading the BFW thread and have not read anything that says that a camp dump is more efficient. If there is a post that is related could you tell what post number it is so I can read it.

Thanks, Mark

minoly
01-02-2011, 09:39 PM
It's pretty easy to miss read some of his stuff, especially when we have our own ideas in our head. I know if you have a "cycled" battery, some will accept the charge better than others. and yes, he mentions several times that the cap will "convert"(can't remember if that's the word he uses) the radiant to "conventional". all these words are easy to misconstrue. And I'm sure someone has been able to get a battery to perform better than a cap, as a whole that has not been our experience here.

He does not use your exact words, however, he lists it in red in the 3rd post and makes a few references to it in a few other spots throughout the thread, don't have time to flush them all out:
"The machine requires one DC motor, 555 timer circuit for pulses to chop the DC motor, one mono pole energizer and one large mass weight wheel. the two signals are out of phase from each other. and a capacitor tuned to the energizer. That is the mystery. other then that some simple wiring, you wont do it on a small scale. As I said it is right in front of your eyes. It's the way you think about it."

minoly
01-03-2011, 03:41 AM
just posted a vid that hopefully shows what we've been trying to say about timing is everything. this is just a small quick example.
YouTube - min2oly's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/min2oly)
:v-peace:

minoly
01-03-2011, 10:46 PM
I cant locate where I saw this. I thought it was in one of the energy series videos where he showed his 10 coiler and all the light bulbs, but after watching it again I didn't see it. It was probably a year ago that I saw it or read it somewhere. Maybe I'm incorrect. Storing the radiant charge in a cap supposedly converts it to conventional energy, or am I mistaken here also?

I have been reading the BFW thread and have not read anything that says that a camp dump is more efficient. If there is a post that is related could you tell what post number it is so I can read it.

Thanks, Mark

Hey Mark,
I found a spot on EFV DVD 2 where JB says you don't need the cap if you let the battery translate it. @ about 40 minutes into it.

Still can't find anyplace that he says it specifically charges better w/ or w/o the cap. this is a good review exercise for us.

Mark
01-03-2011, 10:54 PM
Hey Minoly

Thanks for the update. :thumbsup: I like your new video, good and easy way to trigger cap.

meehow.kailan
02-02-2011, 12:17 PM
Hi Everyone.... Sorry I haven't replied at all. Haven't been able to configure my profile and so I never received any e-mails and never checked back here as a result.

@ Mark.

I spent a little time with this "Back Popping" circuit for my 3-pole. I Used a laser-phototransistor as my trigger and some circuitry to make my trigger very specific. I timed my "gate" to fire just before the transistors conduct since someone on the bm3 forum suggested that's the sweet spot for Back Popping.

I didn't get my "gate" to be exactly beside the transistor conduction zone but I got it close.

So then I had this big Cap 2700uF 50V and circuit designed to discharge into an isolated 12V SLAB every time the voltage approached 24V. I think I was getting like 0.7A spikes. about 10Hz.

The Battery took forever to charge and I wasn't too impressed since the circuit was eating up about 12mA DC.

Then I tried just taking the genny and feeding it through a full bridge rectifier and into an isolated battery.... Turns out it was charging faster than with a Cap and It didn't take any current to do that.

I'm gonna get back into this once I'm done making some other circuits which involve discharging Caps into batteries.... I"m learning a lot about the process. like using mosfets as the discharge switch. Also, I think I'm gonna use high power schottky diodes to rectify the genny output super efficiently.

Anyway, on the bm3 group they mention that the idea is to Back Pop just before the tranny's conduct and hopefully by doing that you can get a little bit of a resonant jitter (bounce) in the electrolyte and momentarily raise the voltage of the battery before it floods the drive/slave coils with power. ...

I think conservation of energy is mostly preserved, however it's the resonances of inner molecules that we are trying to alter and harvest power from and that's when it is more efficiently charged than convential methods.

most of that is my opinion btw.

so yeah, that's what I've been doing. I'm probably gonna invest in two more genny coils and figure out some simpler yet very accurate triggering circuit and play some more with those Caps.

Peace.

Meehow

Mark
02-02-2011, 02:15 PM
Well Its looks like you have come to the same conclusion as I have. Most of my testing was done using a solid state setup so with a rotor there could be some differences. I'm currently involved with the Lockridge Device so if you find a better charging method please let us know.

Mark

meehow.kailan
02-03-2011, 04:46 AM
Well, I've been working on a solid state charger with Caps and I had a BJT on the discharge side and I was getting only about 1.4 Amp pulses.... then when I put the right type of mosfet in it's place I was able to get 45Amp pulses with the exact same setup.

IRF1018

so, I have faith that it can be done right... .it's just a matter of tunning each componant to the circuit.

Meehow

meehow.kailan
02-09-2011, 04:11 AM
good one. I'll have to study that video some more.

Meehow


Meehow, you maybe interested in this video. I think it relates to your question.

YouTube - bedini 3pole mono with scr cap dec28 2010.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySGOTYsH9jw)


FRC

meehow.kailan
03-19-2011, 06:54 PM
now I have 3 generator coils on my Conf. kit 3-pole. they are tied in parallel to a schottky diode bridge rectifier. I store the energy into a 200V 47µF cap and with a laser trigger I pulse a mosfet (IRFZ34N) with a 200µs window to discharge the cap.

I am getting about 5Amp pulses per rotation. The Cap climbs up about 5volts and then discharges.

This setup seem to be charging a stand alone battery alright, but still slower than the Kit charging the Secondary.

I tried setting it up to be a self runner, but still no luck. I'm gonna take the time and replace any wires I can think of to 18AWG, however, I intuition is that the wires are not the problem.