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lamare
12-23-2010, 11:55 AM
Hi all,

Someone pointed me to a Russian motor with permanent magnets as well as electro magnets. There's a Youtube video of this motor in action:

YouTube - Russian ultra efficient magnet motor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1rilJFviVM)

I have put the patents for this motor up at my website:
Bestandsoverzicht van /pdf/Patents/Shkondin/ (http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Patents/Shkondin/)

It appears to be much like a dual/quad Bedini monopole motor, depending on the configuration, where the coils are put into resonance:

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Patents/Shkondin/EP1616741A1_Electric_Motor.pdf

[0009] The coils of adjacent electromagnets in the rotor, in accordance with the invention, are connected in pairs, in series aiding, and to the coils of a pair of diametrically opposite electromagnets, in series opposing; the leads of their windings, connected to the corresponding brushes, are shunted by capacitors, so that each two pairs of diametrically opposite electromagnets, together with the capacitor, form a resonant circuit. The number (n) of permanent magnets in the stator and the number (m) of the said resonant circuits are determined from the equations n=10+k, m=2+k, where k is a whole number (k=0,1,2,3...), the number of plates in the distributing collector is taken as equal to n, and the axial lines of the dielectric gaps in the distributing collector are aligned along the axial lines of the permanent magnets in the stator.

[...]

[0011] It was unexpectedly discovered that the resonance phenomena are amplified in the event of the number of loops in the coil windings electrically connected to each other (diametrically opposite electromagnets) differing from each other by an integral multiple.

lamare
12-26-2010, 08:39 PM
Interestingly, Gary Magratten also used permanent magnets in his Gray replication:

Pulsed Electromagnetic Motor by G.M. -- Prototype 2 (http://pureenergysystems.com/os/EdGrayMotor/PM_PEM_MG/prototypes/motor/GM2/index.html)

This one was based on Gray's patent US3,890,458:
US Patent 3,890,548 Edwin Gray "Pulsed Capacitor Discharge Electric Engine" (http://pureenergysystems.com/os/EdGrayMotor/PM_PEM_MG/patents/3890548/index.html)

This patent contains the following schematic:
http://pureenergysystems.com/os/EdGrayMotor/PM_PEM_MG/patents/3890548/US3890548_p2aFig1_bf4.gif

As I posted here:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3235-gray-tube-replication-71.html#post123041

This schematic has very much in common with Duddel's "singing arc":

Adventures in CyberSound: Experiments with "Singing Arc" and Tesla Coil (http://www.acmi.net.au/AIC/SINGING_ARC_MOELLER.html)

http://www.acmi.net.au/AIC/MOELLER_1_s.GIF

Which makes perfectly sense if the coils are supposed to resonate.

Farmhand
12-27-2010, 10:31 AM
Hi lamare, Those bike's can really get along.:cool: Almost dangerous. I could use one of those.

Is figure three from the first patent listed on your site a, in/out scope shot kinda thing ?

Yes the second patent listed on your site has drawings that look like a bipolar grey motor (fueless engine) to me. Very interesting.

Cheers

lamare
12-27-2010, 11:03 AM
Hi lamare, Those bike's can really get along.:cool: Almost dangerous. I could use one of those.

Is figure three from the first patent listed on your site a, in/out scope shot kinda thing ?


It says in the patent:
Fig. 3 shows a graph of the voltage in the leads of the electromagnet coils connected to each other, forming a resonant circuit with the capacitor connected to them.


Interestingly, there's a spike kind of pulse, as well as a block kind of signal, both in the same direction. One would guess that the block signal is the energizing part, while the spike is the back EMF.


Yes the second patent listed on your site has drawings that look like a bipolar grey motor (fueless engine) to me. Very interesting.

Cheers

Yes, and there are also similarities with Bedini's stuff. Actually, his circuit is also an oscillator. The key difference between spark gap / negative resistance oscillators and a transistor / vacuum tube oscillator is that you need a feedback circuit in the latter case. Bedini's oscillator is actually much the same as the oscillator used by Stiffler a.o. ...

In my Imhotep fan, I see that it oscillates at a higher frequency than the rotation of the fan. So, you get multiple spikes per rotation.

Farmhand
12-27-2010, 12:13 PM
Interestingly, there's a spike kind of pulse, as well as a block kind of signal, both in the same direction. One would guess that the block signal is the energizing part, while the spike is the back EMF.

Thats what I thought, shouldn't the BEMF go the other way ? :confused: I get confused with this stuff.

Anyway I would like to build a singing arc, it looks like a very simple and usefull arrangement for experimenting and studying some resonate effects, I have no idea how i will come up with the 200v of DC at up to 2 Amps, but I will find it if i have to.

The audio chokes, any hints on whats required in turns or general properties to make an audio choke. And do you happen to have any pictures or drawings of a large homemade linear variable resistor. I'll have to experiment with this on a real wooden board. :) I've got lots of copper coated carbon rod 10 mm and rectangular aswell, i've been trying to think up something to do with them so this will fit the bill nicely.

This singing arc could be played like a piano, or maybe an "organ" would be a better disrciption. I have noticed you mention the singing arc a few times before, so I get the impression I could learn a lot if I try to study it.

Oh yeah What is the item 16 in the grey drawing? the box with the broken outline. Is that the famous tube or some kind of relay or special switch ?

Thanks lamare.

P.S. If I ever get the singing arc to work, I will call it Susan. :D

Farmhand
12-27-2010, 01:10 PM
Well lamare the drawings in the patent kind of remind me of this. From a Tesla document. "Polyphase Currents and High Potential Lighting"


Fig. 91 illustrates the invention as embodied in a motor
in which the inductive relation of the primary and secondary
circuits is secured by winding them inside the motor partly
upon the same cores ; but the invention applies, generally, to
other forms of motor in which one of the energizing currents is
induced in any way from the other.

http://kozpma.bay.livefilestore.com/y1phhMDbmNj1cY_gL23Ecxw_LtS03kBTcXXmR0BBMAzbrYuOFs fwdtkpmPctjA3wgIpeLHbllt4KuzqbaxLl8fI6Zktri-ccV5T/Motor%20with%20capacitor%20in%20one%20winding.jpg? psid=1

From Tesla Document

His invention consists in placing a
condenser in the secondary or induced circuit of the motor above
described and raising the potential of the secondary currents to
such a degree that the capacity of the condenser, which is in
part dependent on the potential, need be quite small. The value
of this condenser is determined in a well-understood manner with
reference to the self-induction and other conditions of the circuit,
so as to cause the currents which pass through it to differ from
the primary currents by a quarter phase.


From Patent
[0010] Such a relation of the number of electromagnets,
permanent magnets and collector plates, and such
an electromagnet commutation circuit containing capacitors,
provides resonance of currents in the low frequency
circuits formed by the pairs of diametrically opposite electromagnets
and the capacitors connected to them. The
rating of the capacitors should be coordinated with the
number of coil windings shunted by these capacitors.

:thinking:

lamare
12-27-2010, 02:36 PM
Thats what I thought, shouldn't the BEMF go the other way ? :confused: I get confused with this stuff.


Exactly what I thought... It looks like the EMF in this case is dominated by the permanent magnets. The coils appear to be switched in series with the capacitor, so they are never open, and the commutator charges/discharges the capacitors. Very puzzling and intrigueing details, like the difference in number of coil windings, which appear to have something to do with matching the phase of a standing wave across the two coils in series.


Anyway I would like to build a singing arc, it looks like a very simple and usefull arrangement for experimenting and studying some resonate effects, I have no idea how i will come up with the 200v of DC at up to 2 Amps, but I will find it if i have to.


A variac with a diode bridge and suitable capacitors should be possible, I think.


The audio chokes, any hints on whats required in turns or general properties to make an audio choke. And do you happen to have any pictures or drawings of a large homemade linear variable resistor. I'll have to experiment with this on a real wooden board. :) I've got lots of copper coated carbon rod 10 mm and rectangular aswell, i've been trying to think up something to do with them so this will fit the bill nicely.


The task of the chokes is to enable the resonant circuit to swing more or less freely, while still providing power. So, the chokes should act as low pass filters. I guess a transformer winding that can stand the amperage should do.

The variable resistor is there in order to tune the voltage across the circuit, such that the spark gap gets in a region where it shows that negative resistance property.

If you would take a variac with a bridge, or an adjustable power supply, you can get by without a variable resistor. Since the firing voltage of the arc depends mostly with the spacing between the contacts, you can probably get it to work at lower voltages, too. IIRC, I read somewhere that Duddell used 48V.


This singing arc could be played like a piano, or maybe an "organ" would be a better disrciption. I have noticed you mention the singing arc a few times before, so I get the impression I could learn a lot if I try to study it.

Oh yeah What is the item 16 in the grey drawing? the box with the broken outline. Is that the famous tube or some kind of relay or special switch ?

Thanks lamare.

P.S. If I ever get the singing arc to work, I will call it Susan. :D

Item 16 in the Gray circuit is a vibrating relay, such that the power to the transformer is switched back and forth between the two oppozing primaries of the coil, so you get sort of an AC signal in the transformer, which is transformed up to a high voltage in the secondary. Pretty dirty technique, but it works.