Stanley Meyer technology entering the age of the computer

[Tecstatic]

.
Hi Stan Meyer tech fans :-)

H20power has made an extremely valuable contribution to humanity in the thread

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...explained.html

Thank you for this great effort

-------

To not mix the physics with the new control circuits this new thread is started.

In order to make a reliable and flexible solution we need a microcontroller IMHO.
Those who disagree don't need further reading in this thread.

For many the word "micro controller" raises the hairs. This "opaque", "complicated", "impossible to do" technology scares a lot away, but the end result of such efforts using a micro controllers is already part of everyday life, better get used to it.

Try to identify a car, TV, remote control, camera, mobile phone, rice cooker, watch or kitchen weight scale or other daily used "electric" devices without a microprocessor inside. Those devices without micro controllers belongs to endangered species for better or worse, better get used to it.

The micro processers sit there because they are a cheap, effective and flexible tool to solve the design challenges. and some even manage to make the devices easy to use to the benefit of the user

You think it is impossible to do yourself ?
I think not, if you join a collective effort to get to an important milestone. As a "bi-product" you learn a new technology you can use for other purposes.

But how do you get started ?

Basically just consider the micro controller as yet another IC, just with more pins and more flexibility, and I guess you more than once needed some flexibility for your experiments eg. more flexible pulse control.

A modern micro controller has all memory needed and an impressing number of devices inside a single chip, some even has an "internal switchboard" so you can choose which pins is used for an internal device.

Making the PCB layout, this means that the layout is "star" like: A micro controller in the middle with tracks going via interface circuits to connectors along the PCB edges.

The ones who has tried making old fashioned TTL logic PCB boards with lots of interconnected ICs see the difference.

A modern micro controller is supported by nice software tools so it makes it quite easy to succeed the development effort. Just 10 years ago it was not that cheap and easy for the hobbyist.

So a micro controller means less components, so it is more easy to build for the many. All the complexity are in a binary file, that even a child can download to the target controller.

Based on many years of experience, allow me to recommend using a micro controller from the ATMEL AVR family.
This has many advantages:

1. They are cheap
2. They are well documented and easy to learn using
3. They are well supported by tools
4. They are well supported by lots of enthusiasts on the frindly and helpful site AVR Freaks (avoid the FE terms on that forum)
5. The AVR family of micro controllers range from small 8-pin ICs to large ICs with lots of memory, pins and functions (that's scaleability).
6. The AVR family share a common instruction set and development tools ( programmers, in-circuit emulators ICE and C/C++ compilers )
7. A lot of companies offer cheap prototyping boards, programmers, ICEs and compilers, suitable for experimentation
8. Many of the professional SW tools are expensive. But a very nice Open Source tool suite is available for free :-)
9. The Code::Blocks tool can make simulation code run on the PC or the real thing in the target experimental board with just a single project file.


But back on track, what do we have to do to get going with a micro controller:

1. Familiarize yourself with a micro controller, just the first two "features" pages and the pin-outs figure will do for a start, eg. this one:
Atmel Products - Devices

2. For making your own PCB and help the collective effort install the free cross platform Kicad:
KiCAD: Information from Answers.com

3. Install the free development cross platform tools Code::Blocks
Code::Blocks

4. Download the project files for Kicad and Code::Blocks, or make your own. To reduce time waste I recommend we share common project files here. I can deliver the first version.

5. Build or buy a programmer or an ICE. e.g.:
Embedded Projects

6. Build or buy an experimentation board we can agree on. e.g."AVR-CAN" (39 EUROS, approx. 59$ ) from here:
Development and Prototype boards and tools for PIC AVR and MSP430
Or the PCB I pictured here as a starter for experimentation:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post73089

7. Make a "hello world" program running on a target, so we are ready for designing Stanley Meyers solutions.

The experience gathered is collected in a "development manual" to help newcomers, and relieve the rest of us to answer the same questions all over again.

----------------------

For advancing on the Stanley Meyers technology, I think we need a fresh start instead of outdated circuits.

1. Make a list of all physical devices needed
2. Use Kicad to draw a system overview hierarchical diagram, the "skeleton" to fill in the meat.
3. Make a requirement description for each functional block in the system diagram.
4. Make a decision on which HW to use.
5. Design the main SW structure, when this has been done, the individual blocks can be solved by members who has never tried this before, just fill in the meat and do experiments.
6. Investigate the need for "artificial simulated sensors" to make the conversion cars Engine controller believe it is business as usual. This involves CAN bus and transducer studying on the car in question
7. Integrate the individual experiments to a final solution.

-----

For easy sharing of work and versions we need to use a version control system. Having learned a few basics I will help you getting to, sharing files with a version control system is as easy as moving a file in a file manager.

For version control on windows computers I suggest using "TortoiseSVN" on Linux i recommend "RapidSVN".

I don't know if it will be wise to use sourceforge as the server for this project.
SourceForge.net | SourceForge

Any opinions ?

This is it for now I have probably forgot a lot, but hopefully you will join to make it complete.

@Ash
Maybe you will offer a server for running the Subversion version control server program so everyone can work in sync on the project. (assuming some will participate)

----

As I have also worked as a project coordinator, this coordination effort is something I have tried before. By this I'm not thinking of pushing members around the arena and making deadlines or even take the role of the coordinator. I just think of the ability to solve problems (challenges) along the road in this hopefully collective effort.

Maybe even a furnace could be the first step, as many use more money for heating than for the car fuel. Here we don't have to fight the CAN bus problems of the car either. And don't expect heating costs to decrease in the future, those who have trust in "global warming" will end up freezing when oil is no longer affordable, just my opinion.

If you wish this technology, we can do it together, but there is no such thing as a free meal.

I can offer a work effort and some help, especially if you choose to instal Ubuntu on an old computer (with USB).
Ubuntu Home Page | Ubuntu

Installing Ubuntu works like a charm, and it is very easy to install (and use) the application programs from the Ubuntu install menu such as:

subversion
RapidSVN
Kicad
Code::Blocks
USBprog

The AVR GCC C/C++ compiler is installed by running a script, I will return to that subject later

Windows (M$) can also do the job, but why feed money to the elite, when you can use free Open Source tools for free energy research ?


Eric

[theremart]

RE: micro controllers.

Hi,

I have programmed one recently for my battery swapper. I did it in assembly language. Took me months to do it, but now at last I have relays that I can control and set for many different time intervals.

I have just purchased some latching relays, it is my hope to improve my setup so it takes less electricity to keep it running so I can run it from batteries.

The next thing I really want is a micro controller that uses very little electricity that allows me to trigger the latching relays. But I am thinking of moving over to basic, as I want a setup that I can do things based on temperature ranges and voltage ranges. Trying to do that in assembly language was just too much for me.

So the next step up for me is X-10 technology. I love being able to program at a higher level instead of being down at the machine level, but... being at the machine level means I can do things very very very quickly.

I am using Microsoft because it is my bread ticket. Work provides me a laptop and it is Microsoft. I have built linux box, mac boxes and even worked with a little unix of old.

I have found what ever gets the job done works for me.

Micro controllers are awesome tools. But it takes massive amount of effort to program them well.

cheers

Mart

[Tecstatic]

Hi,

I have programmed one recently for my battery swapper. I did it in assembly language. Took me months to do it, but now at last I have relays that I can control and set for many different time intervals.

I have just purchased some latching relays, it is my hope to improve my setup so it takes less electricity to keep it running so I can run it from batteries.

The next thing I really want is a micro controller that uses very little electricity that allows me to trigger the latching relays. But I am thinking of moving over to basic, as I want a setup that I can do things based on temperature ranges and voltage ranges. Trying to do that in assembly language was just too much for me.

So the next step up for me is X-10 technology. I love being able to program at a higher level instead of being down at the machine level, but... being at the machine level means I can do things very very very quickly.

I am using Microsoft because it is my bread ticket. Work provides me a laptop and it is Microsoft. I have built linux box, mac boxes and even worked with a little unix of old.

I have found what ever gets the job done works for me.

Micro controllers are awesome tools. But it takes massive amount of effort to program them well.

cheers

Mart

Hi Mart,

Thank you for your comments, nice to hear I'm not that alone

"Micro controllers are awesome tools. But it takes massive amount of effort to program them well."

Yes they are, but it does not need take months to program.

I agree that it takes a lot of time to select good tools to finish projects in a short time.

But the point is I have done that.

I did a quick test of X-10 but I did not find whats inside.

Dealing with eg. a tiny45, which I have used, they consume:
100nA during power down, which requires an interrupt to wake up,
60uA during idle which can wake up from eg. a timer or the analog comparator interrupt, or
450uA active running at 1MHz.

These consumption figures are hard to beat for other micro controllers in a battery swapper application.

The following is not meant to be offensive in any way, it just reflects specialization.

When dealing a lot with micro controllers as I have done, I guess I could have programmed your battery swapper in C or C++ on a 2-4$ Atmel controller in a few hours.

And so could you, set to the right abstraction level, given the tools and the framework ready to go.

Just my humble opinion.

Eric

[bussi04]

.
Hi Stan Meyer tech fans :-)

...

I don't know if it will be wise to use sourceforge as the server for this project.
SourceForge.net | SourceForge

Any opinions ?

This is it for now I have probably forgot a lot, but hopefully you will join to make it complete.

@Ash
Maybe you will offer a server for running the Subversion version control server program so everyone can work in sync on the project. (assuming some will participate)
...

Eric

Tecstatic thanks a lot for jumping in. I will follow the path of design and development steps you have outlined above. At the moment my mobile internet connection is so bad for 2 days that I can´t set up the whole environment you described. I´ll start with the SM device list and the functional modules in KiCad.
IMHO a platform for filesharing is absolute necessary. file sharing in this forum environment without a suitable server lacks all we need to proceed.
I want to proceed using XP environment so my question is if those 2 version control systems for M$ and ubuntu are compatible. If there is no other way I would make the switch to ubuntu.

greetings,
bussi04

[Tecstatic]

Tecstatic thanks a lot for jumping in. I will follow the path of design and development steps you have outlined above. At the moment my mobile internet connection is so bad for 2 days that I can´t set up the whole environment you described. I´ll start with the SM device list and the functional modules in KiCad.
IMHO a platform for filesharing is absolute necessary. file sharing in this forum environment without a suitable server lacks all we need to proceed.
I want to proceed using XP environment so my question is if those 2 version control systems for M$ and ubuntu are compatible. If there is no other way I would make the switch to ubuntu.

From day to day I learn more about abbreviations: ICE means "internal combustion engine" and on the other hand I guess "in circuit emulator" ?!?

greetings,
bussi04

bussi04 thank you for supporting and doing the documentation work, list and Kicad

Both Linux and M$ (yes, I like that term) can be used, as all the needed tools are cross-platform or equally suited and compatible as is the case with RapidSVN and TortoiseSVN.

But as I don't use M$ much, and certainly not for micro controller (uC) development, don't expect me to be the expert up to date regarding M$ specific stuff. Luckily the links I have mentioned can give all the help needed.

And yes, we certainly need a SVN server for version control, else a collective development effort like this ends up in a mess both documentation, HW and SW wise. That has been seen too often.

The question is where can we be hosted ?

I know how to install the SVN server program if we have a host.

The SVN thing means for the project member, that he by using RapidSVN or TortoiseSVN is only a few clicks from up to date files, or a specific version if needed.
This means we can each work at a specific issue without getting constantly disturbed by the changing files from other members.

Each time we reach a milestone with some result we make a new version by integrating the work, test it and version it at the project level, so all members can update their files to a verified known state.

So much about version control for now, if you want to learn more this, the excellent reference below is the way to go:

Version Control with Subversion


I am currently making a fresh Ubuntu install, instructions will follow...

Eric

[Tecstatic]

@ Eric
This sounds like a gret idea, people has talked about using a microcontroller in Stan Meyers work but no one has ever realy wanted to take on the challenge because of the lack of programming and understanding of microcontrollers. I for one know very little about it. I have a brother-inlaw that programs microcontrollers for a living. Im sure he will be willing to help out. I guess i have a few questions before i buy the needed equipement?
Since most of us have no or very little knowlege of using C++ or a programmer
Is it something that you can teach along the way or something we need to learn on our own.

This is a big subject, but handled the right way we can jump the lowest part of the fence without loosing much. You will be spared the show stoppers often costing so much time that most give up on micro controllers (from now on "uC"). I will guide you safely to avoid that time waste.

To walk a mile, you do it step by step, and I suggest we do the same here.

Assuming you have a computer with USB connector and CD-ROM for the purpose, the first steps will cost no money, just some time.

To install Ubuntu you can choose the easy plain vanilla by installing the desktop version instead of the alternate CD. But then your disk is not encrypted,

You can also take a look at Ubuntu by downloading the live CD and boot it. this makes no changes to your harddisk.

------

But I suggest the first steps taken to be:

1. Download Ubuntu 9.10 alternate install CD, from Download Ubuntu | Ubuntu
click "Text-based installer"
click "complete list of download locations "
select a server near you
Then you get a page named "Ubuntu Releases"
Click the link "Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic Koala)"
Scroll down to "Alternate install CD"
Select 32 or 64bit version according to your PC.
For the 32-bit version you then download a file named "ubuntu-9.10-alternate-i386.iso"

2. Use your CD burner program to burn the .iso image to a CD.

3. Insert the CD in your PC and boot.

4. Select your language (or preferably english to ease our communication), press enter

5. Use F3 to select your key map, press enter

6. You now have to go through a few text-based setup pages
select again your language
select your country
After loading some code select you ethernet interface, but don't plug in your Internet wire.
After trying to configure without a plug mounted, it of cause fails.
Select "Continue"
Select "Do not configure the network at this time"
Enter the hostname, eg. "sm"

7. Now you have to select the partitioning method,
Select "Guided - use entire disk and set up encrypted LVM"

8. Select your harddisk
Say yes to write changes to the disk.
Enter your disk password to open the encrypted disk
Once more to verify
Accept the proposed disk size for the partition
Say yes to write changes to the disk.

9. Enter your user name (used for logging in)
10. Enter your user password (used for logging in)
11. Say "No" to encrypt your home directory (the whole disk is encrypted)

Now the installation of Ubuntu begins, have some patience.

12. You will be asked where to put the boot loader, choose your hard disk.

13. Have the system clock set to UTC (important for SVN worldwide work)

When the installation finishes, remove the CD and boot Ubuntu.

Enter your disk password to open the encrypted disk
Select your user name to log in
Enter your user password

Now Ubuntu boots, and you should get your desktop ready to use - but first connect to the Internet and get the latest security updates.

So now is the time to plug in your Internet cable.

From the top menu select System->Administration-Update Manager

enter your user password and do the update.
Exit the update manager.

Congratulations

Now your computer runs Open Source ready to install Open Source applications for Open Source free energy.

Use a bit of time to play with your new "toy".

When one participant reports he has completed the above steps I continue the instructions for installation of the Applications for the development work.

I need at least one confirming the above instructions is usable.

----------------

A few infos on Ubuntu:

In Windows you have disks in your file system eg, c:, d:
In Linux you just have a root directory named "/"
The user files are located under "/home/your_user_name/"

To start a file manager, click the top menu "places" and then "Home Folder", now you can navigate your file system.

You can also examine the top "Applications" menu to study the bunch of free default installed programs, among them Open Office which it very much like M$ Word.

You will be surprised how fast you will be able to do ordinary user work with Ubuntu.

A brief summary is here:
What is Ubuntu? | Ubuntu
and here:
Ubuntu 9.10 Feature Tour | Ubuntu

In case my instructions are insufficient, you can try the Ubuntu user forum which is able to answer almost any Ubuntu questions (most are answered already, you just have to seek)
Ubuntu Forums

Or please inform me, if the question is basic for following my instructions.

------------------------------

Stop you may say, I don't want to use Linux.

Fine, that does not exclude you from participating, but then you must seek how to install the cross platform tools yourself, all info can be found on the net.

My mission is to do the Stan Meyer work, and as I have quit Windows some time ago, I'm not going to spend more of my spare time on M$

This decision was taken when I realized that Bill Gates has owned a lot of money by making slight updates to a program, and adding at the same time some nuisance with compatibility to older versions of that program, the older the worse.

This is meant to force you buy updates all the time, even if you don't need the slightly updated functionality.

I have experienced this with a large application I have developed, and when the program update I was forced to do, at the same time required a lot of reprogramming because of no back compatibility, that was the end for M$ in my spare time. Now you know why.

----

You may also have the possibility to make dual boot on your computer (at boot time you choose between M$ and Ubuntu), just remember to have backup and have Bill be the first to be installed, if he is second to be installed you will experience lots of trouble.

----

Alternatively if you have access to a new computer capable of USB boot, you can buy a 16 GB USB stick and install Ubuntu on that stick . I have not done that myself, but it should be a solution also. Select the USB stick at step 8 above.

-----

You maybe have a hard disk bay so you could swap disks, then you just need an extra disk instead of dual-boot or an extra computer.

-------

Please let me know if I missed some explanation, or have errors in the above instructions.
I have made the instructions while doing a fresh install on one of my computers.

If errors are found this post will be updated, so you don't have to look through the whole thread for possible corrections for install of Ubuntu.

Eric

[nilrehob]

Hi Eric,

Already using Ubuntu (and other Linux's before Ubuntu was born) I can only say I would never go back to Windows. It took a while to switch (as is switching any software) but it was totally worth the while!

There are some major programs on Linux that also has a Windows version. This means that you can safely try these programs out on Windows before the actual switch to Linux. A few that comes to mind are:

• Firefox Browser | Free ways to customize your Internet
• Thunderbird - Reclaim your inbox
• OpenOffice.org - The Free and Open Productivity Suite
• http://www.gimp.org/

My kids just switched to Ubuntu recently, leaving Windows behind, and their biggest concern was games like WOW and some multimedia programs. They successfully solved it with WineHQ - Run Windows applications on Linux, BSD, Solaris and Mac OS X , a library and program-loader that enables many programs to run on Linux unmodified, making them think they run on Windows.

Free Software Free Energy.

/Hob

[Tecstatic]

Hi Eric,

Already using Ubuntu (and other Linux's before Ubuntu was born) I can only say I would never go back to Windows. It took a while to switch (as is switching any software) but it was totally worth the while!
.
.
My kids just switched to Ubuntu recently, leaving Windows behind, and their biggest concern was games like WOW and some multimedia programs. They successfully solved it with WineHQ - Run Windows applications on Linux, BSD, Solaris and Mac OS X , a library and program-loader that enables many programs to run on Linux unmodified, making them think they run on Windows.

Free Software Free Energy.

/Hob

Hi Hob,

Welcome.

So here is a Linux expert, maybe you will help if I or others get lost on a Linux "challenge", sounds like you have more Linux experience than me (and it is nice to have experts around)

So if your kids can succeed using Linux, this should not be the most difficult step to take.

Unfortunately we still have to wait for the first successful install, as an experienced Linux user, you don't count, sorry

Have others succeeded to install ?

Eric

[nilrehob]

Installing any OS is a bit daunting the first time, be it Linux, Windows or any other OS, so its nice to have a machine to try on that is not crucial if its up again in an hour or so.

Personally I think installing Windows is quite tiresome as you have to install all kinds of drivers and stuff with a reboot between each installed component.

With Ubuntu its a breeze it just rolls in and your ready to go, you can even try Ubuntu running from the CD and not touching the HD, just to see if Ubuntu knows about your particular hardware, but remember that a CD is much slower than a HD so once Ubuntu is installed on HD it will run very much faster.

Anyone please feel free to ask if there is any problem.

/Hob

[carbideTip]

Don't forget you can always VM XP inside Ubuntu.

[Tecstatic]

Life is not always easy.

Now I have spent two hours trying to log in on avrfreaks, but it seems this is also obstructed by "someone".

Could I ask one of you a favor ?

Please register at:

avrfreaks.net

login and go to this post:

avrfreaks.net

In the bottom of the first post by bingo600 is some script files.

I will be thankful if you post the scripts here, so I can finish my toolchain install description.

The script files is only visible when logged in and I can't login.

It keeps asking me to enable cookies, so big brother Google can watch, the site calls a google java script, but even with a new unprotected install (no blockings of google related stuff), I still get the error. But I'm used to having my traffic filtered and modified :-(

So either someone prevents the java script from running, or Google does not like me. By the way this is an effective means to censor the Internet traffic of a specific person.

Thanks in advance

Eric

[Tecstatic]

I think the ones you want are in zip files..... If so the attatchment in this post a message does not support zip files. i have them save if you have another way you want them sent.

gpssonar, Thank you for helping.

You just rename the extension to .pdf, then you can attach them here, and when I have downloaded the files, I rename them back to .zip.

Eric

[Tecstatic]

In your file manager, right click on each file, and select "rename". Then edit the .zip to .pdf and press the enter key.

When renamed, you can attach the .pdf files to your post.

Eric

[Tecstatic]

Hi gpssonar,

Thank you very much, I got the files

This is just an example of the value of not giving up.

Eric

[theremart]

Micro controllers.

Hi Mart,

Thank you for your comments, nice to hear I'm not that alone

"Micro controllers are awesome tools. But it takes massive amount of effort to program them well."

Yes they are, but it does not need take months to program.

I agree that it takes a lot of time to select good tools to finish projects in a short time.

But the point is I have done that.

I did a quick test of X-10 but I did not find whats inside.

Dealing with eg. a tiny45, which I have used, they consume:
100nA during power down, which requires an interrupt to wake up,
60uA during idle which can wake up from eg. a timer or the analog comparator interrupt, or
450uA active running at 1MHz.

These consumption figures are hard to beat for other micro controllers in a battery swapper application.

The following is not meant to be offensive in any way, it just reflects specialization.

When dealing a lot with micro controllers as I have done, I guess I could have programmed your battery swapper in C or C++ on a 2-4$ Atmel controller in a few hours.

And so could you, set to the right abstraction level, given the tools and the framework ready to go.

Just my humble opinion.

Eric

Hi,

No offense taken, I understand people who know a certain field much better than I do. I have programmed a little in C++ using the free Borland dos version.

So for your interface do you burn your chips on the board or use an socket?


I used a pic board because it had power supply and com port built in.

Would the atmel be able to 1. sense voltage?

Also what inter up would fire up the micro controller ?

I guess when i think about it most of our houses are controlled by a thermostat which probably is a microcontroller running a relay. All it need is a few AA batteries to switch the relay on or off.

Thanks for your insights, would like to learn more about which C your use..

I may consider getting linux for my eproom burner just to see if the world is better on that side of the fence.