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BobBrown
10-19-2009, 04:28 PM
Bedini type Charging System attempt #2 Oct 18 2009

Hello, Iím quite please to say I finally finished my Bedini SSG test experiments, and have noticed that much if not all, of what has been said is true. I made a bit of a sloppy wheel so was not perfect. However, the one to one coil defiantly gave a greater voltage to the secondary then I would normally have expected, and it did charge the charge battery, however slowly, it worked.

Iím not much of a wheel man, so Iím working towards solid state. To that end Iíve taken a Bedini schematic , and re arranged, and even changed some things. The primary side will be almost totally unrecognizable to most. At this point I could not find anything different to do with the charge side, so its pretty much same old same old. Before I start let me thank Bedini and The monopole3 yahoo group, for helping me get this far.

Briefly A 555 timer (IC1) is used to determine when to pulse the Coil through IC2, and when to dump the capacitor (C7) through IC3 ( 741ic used as a comparator ) R1 R2 and C2 are determined to give the output of IC1 (pin3) a low signal ( I believe under 2 volts ) . A high output from pin 3 ( about 12 volts ) , will force IC3 to go low, and thus shut off the dumping of C7, while activating T1 and getting IC2 active, and pulsing the coil through T2.

IC3 is really where Iím stuck on, as I donít really know the output current, however I believe the voltage, will be near zero when pin 2 is higher then pin 3, and 11 volts, when pin 2 is lower then pin 3. Pin 3 is given a steady comparator voltage of 4 volts, by the use of R7, and R8. Where as Pin 2 is effected by the output of IC1, either 11 volts when high, or 2 volts when low.

IC2 is the solid state part that is replacing the wheel. It is turned on via T1, which in turn is controlled by the HIGH out of IC1, and shut off when IC1 is low. The frequency is determined by R4, R5, and C5. D2 is used to decrease the high time of the output , by byepassing R5 during charging of C5, then timing the low time via R5 to pin 7.

One way discussion

C1, C4 ( .1microF) C3, and C6 ( .01microF) are used to buffer the 555 from line noises. The resisters R3, R6, and R9 are 300 ohms, and used to protect the transistors from excessive base current..

I did not put an Opty ( H11D4) anywhere in the circuit, maybe I should have , I just donít know.

Coil pulsing frequency is going to start rather small, at 60 HZ, then slowly moving upto 4 or 6 KHZ. 60 HZ matches my wheel pulse so I know ruffly what to expect. 4 KHZ is where I expect Iím going to make some real power. How long I keep pulsing the coil before dumping the capacitor (C7) I just donít know, to much and I blow up the Capacitor (C7), to little and I guess B2 will just not get charged very fast.

Renote, C7 is dumped when IC1 goes low, and triggers IC3, which goes high opening T3, opening the SCR, and dumping C7.

As an off thought, if C7 is dumping will a current goto the secondary windings through the bridge, while at the same time B2 is getting charged? And if so , will a tank current be set up, causing multiple charging of B2 and the coil. Further will the secondary coil, effect the primary thus charging the primary battery ( B1 ) ? Note that IC1 is holding IC2 in the off state therefore no controlled voltages are being initiated on the primary side.

The coil is a one to one winding, of 800 turns each. I have a 5 winding coil Iím going to use for this purpose, and I guess I can connect and disconnect the wires as I experiment. First test will be with an air core. Second with a soft Iron core. Third Soft Iron core with a North pole magnet on top. I may very magnet strength to see if eny difference. 4th Iíll rap a soft Iron shiething around the outside of the windings, to see if this will boost power. 5th a soft Iron bottom plate may further control the magnetic field in a desirable configuration. 6th, lol what ever you may think of .

Out of thoughts at the moment, thankyou for reading this. Enyhelp in tweeking it, or if your convinced it just wont work, please tell me.

Andrew T.
PATHS ~ Mind Energetics (http://infinitypaths.com/)

Having some trouble getting shematic posted, gona close this, so I don't loose it, and try a reply

BobBrown
10-19-2009, 05:00 PM
Bah, schematic is in Jpg form, about 1.3 megabites. Eny ideas how to upload it? or copy paste it ? Begining to hate pictures.
Andrew T

Bit's-n-Bytes
10-19-2009, 05:07 PM
Andrew, try saving as a*.gif or *.bmp file.

Bit's

BobBrown
10-19-2009, 05:22 PM
Hello

Removed old attachment, schematic, to save space on the server.
New updated and hopfuly improved schematic is below. ( Post number 16 )

Thankyou
Andrew T

ren
10-19-2009, 10:40 PM
Hi Bob Brown.

I feel you could somewhat simplify your schematic, thats if I understand what you are trying to achieve.

Is it your intent to deliver multiple pulses to the coil for a single discharge on the recovery side, or does it operate on a 1 : 1 basis ie pulse coil, switch off, discharge capacitor, repeat?

Does that make sense?

Or is your intent to have the coil shut off when the capacitor discharges? Im sorry Im not too up to date on 555 timers. I do know they come in pairs, the 556 for example, it may be possible that it offers an advantage. Guyla on this forum is good with them I believe.

As for the optical isolator.

The pulse from pin 3 on ic1 is the triggering of the capacitive discharge I believe. All that needs to be done is have pin three join to pin 1 on your h11d1 and come out of pin 2, through some resistance (330 ohms or LED etc) and back to ground. The output transistor of your h11d1 is then darlingtoned to the T3 transistor. Select a suitable transistor here, if dumping higher voltages, say over 100v then you should use the ones listed on his schematics. You can use bigger caps, but you may find you need to change the SCR to a FET or Strong Transistor.

Regards

BobBrown
10-19-2009, 11:33 PM
Hello ! Thankyou for the reply !!

Hi Bob Brown.

Is it your intent to deliver multiple pulses to the coil for a single discharge on the recovery side, or does it operate on a 1 : 1 basis ie pulse coil, switch off, discharge capacitor, repeat?


Or is your intent to have the coil shut off when the capacitor discharges? Im sorry Im not too up to date on 555 timers. I do know they come in pairs, the 556 for example, it may be possible that it offers an advantage. Guyla on this forum is good with them I believe.

Regards

The Main intent is to shut off the pulsing of the coil, when the Capacitor is being discharged. thereby allowing a clean Capacitor discharge to the Charge Battery ( B2 ). This may allow, in future wiring for the capacitor to charge the Primary battery at the same time.

How meny times I pulse the coil before discharging the Capacitor ( C7 ) I do not know. I intend to fill the Capacitor, leaving sufficient emptyness so it does not explode, then discharge it. Depending on my coil, depending on my ability to make a clean pulse, depending on how fast the capacitor takes a charge, will deturmine when the discharge will take place.

Bit of an unknown area here, in that, can I pulse 500 volts of the capacitor into a 12 volt battery? Or is it the higher the voltage, shorter the pulse the better? LOL , haven't been able to pin down what the Capacitor is for, except that it converts the radient energy to useful energy..... shrug.

Andrew T
Master of the Universe !
So long as the universe fits in my beer mug:rofl:

BobBrown
10-19-2009, 11:43 PM
Hi Bob Brown.

As for the optical isolator.

The pulse from pin 3 on ic1 is the triggering of the capacitive discharge I believe. All that needs to be done is have pin three join to pin 1 on your h11d1 and come out of pin 2, through some resistance (330 ohms or LED etc) and back to ground. The output transistor of your h11d1 is then darlingtoned to the T3 transistor. Select a suitable transistor here, if dumping higher voltages, say over 100v then you should use the ones listed on his schematics. You can use bigger caps, but you may find you need to change the SCR to a FET or Strong Transistor.

Regards

Actualy , no. When the 555 timer (IC1 ) goes high, it is signaling the Second 555 tiimer ( IC2 ) to fill the coil with pulses. When IC1 goes low, this low signal is sent to IC3 the 741IC, the 741 notices that the signal voltage is less then the voltage on pin3 of IC3 ( 741 ) and thus send a high signal to the base of T3, activating the scr dump. I guess that would mean, putting the opti coupler, between pin 6 of IC3 and T3, if needed?

Andrew T
Darn drank all the beer, on just one post:eek:

sucahyo
10-20-2009, 02:43 AM
The Main intent is to shut off the pulsing of the coil, when the Capacitor is being discharged. thereby allowing a clean Capacitor discharge to the Charge Battery ( B2 ). This may allow, in future wiring for the capacitor to charge the Primary battery at the same time.You may need to disconnect the primary from the circuit while charging. Charging while utilizing may ruin the battery.

Bit of an unknown area here, in that, can I pulse 500 volts of the capacitor into a 12 volt battery? Or is it the higher the voltage, shorter the pulse the better? LOL , haven't been able to pin down what the Capacitor is for, except that it converts the radient energy to useful energy..... shrug.Yes. Mechanical pulsing is the best but some use SCR or fast transistor. I think capacitor voltage should be at least 400V.


BTW, I attach something that I would use. Capacitor pulsing timing is decided by resistor and capacitor in the relay.

edit: just notice wrong line when building this for real. corrected. I don't have 400V so I use 10000uF/50V. 555 at KHz range, relay at 2Hz range, battery voltage charge at measured 16V.

BobBrown
10-20-2009, 03:25 AM
Hello and Thankyou !

So you think a mechanical relay would give better performance then an SCR or FET? I was shying away from relays, personal choice, in that they never seem to last long, I'll look for some , maybe they make them better these days.

That schematic is beautiful, unfortunatly I can't understand it. Would you mind showing me a few pointers? A brief descrition?:D

:wall: The primary battery gets a small recharge from the collapsing coil field, no matter what I do. Thats just the way Bedini designed it ( I think ). however, I'm told that so long as the Primary is not being used to power the system ( a minute , a second, a nanosecond ) It is safe to pulse a recharge into it, from the capacitor. I guess the proof will be when my Primary dies:grindaisy:

Thankyou
Andrew T:notworthy:
BEERS ON ME !

sucahyo
10-20-2009, 04:07 AM
So you think a mechanical relay would give better performance then an SCR or FET? I was shying away from relays, personal choice, in that they never seem to last long, I'll look for some , maybe they make them better these days.Mechanical is the most efficient but unfortunately less durable. Since we do not create spark in this charging, it last longer. I just build it with 50 cents one, let see how long it last. The contact is dirty at first so I have to clean it before it can run. Currently run without the resistor at the relay at about 2Hz.

There is error in my previous design. I fixed it.

The circuit work by switching the coil on and off with the KSC5027, can be replaced with any fast switching transistor. It is triggered by TIP2955 to improve the signal of 555. The radiant coil collapse current from the coil is collected in 10000uF capacitor.

The 10000uF capacitor is connected to charged battery at the positive terminal. When the relay switched on the battery negative will be connected to the capacitor negative. Because the relay is power get turned off when the relay switched on it will switched off eventually when the voltage of 330uF capacitor no longer able to power the relay.


the left part of the relay is the part of relay which will swith the relay on when you give current. The right part show one movable lever and two stationary. The left stationary will be touched by the movable lever when turned on.

Good luck with the battery, right or wrong it still a valuable information :).

edit: afetr two hour the relay still working consistently. I guess for this application relay is reliable enough. I don't notice self charging but the voltage seems sticky, although it warm up two nicad for just 10 minutes.

BobBrown
10-21-2009, 06:34 PM
Hello !

I'd like to replace the 741 , and the huge amount of added complication it represents, but I have not been able to find a THINGY that will take the low signal of the 555 timer and turn it high, to operate the transister that turns on the SCR.
From what I'm told the low signal of the 555 timer, is between .25 Volts and 2 volts, so it does not go negative, but rather just above zero volts. And most the components I've looked at only switch when the signal goes negative.

Andrew T

sucahyo
10-22-2009, 02:37 AM
I'd like to replace the 741 , and the huge amount of added complication it represents, but I have not been able to find a THINGY that will take the low signal of the 555 timer and turn it high, to operate the transister that turns on the SCR.If you mean inverting the signal, the TIP2955 in my circuit purposes is to invert the signal because I don't know about diode trick before to get sub 50% duty cycle for the 555. I still kept the TIP2955 now because I learn that it improve the output very significantly.

sucahyo
10-22-2009, 02:51 AM
Just notice that there is no arrow in transistor in your diagram. can you add it?

BTW, have you built this circuit yet? because It is weird seeing how the electricity move. How the T3 transistor get voltage between it's base and emitter if T3 transistor do not connect the same negative as the 555 or 741?

I also think it should be better if T1 is used to switch at the negative side of the IC2, which guarantee an easier flow from IC1 output to T1 base to T1 emitter to negative.

If you intend to pulse at duration around 500ms, try my circuit.

Or use relay controlling two switch. I think you can push it to 250ms duration. Use capacitor and potentiometer for controlling duration. one switch decide connection to capacitor, other decide connection from capacitor to battery.

Look for DPDT relay
DPDT 1A Miniature Relay : General Purpose Relays : Maplin (http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=37494&C=SO&U=strat15)

BobBrown
10-22-2009, 12:58 PM
Hello Sucahyo !

Are you saying that the transiter TIP2955 activates when the output of your 555 timer is low ? Also I was wondering why your base resister is so high there ,1100 ohms.

Presantly re drawing the schematic, lol stuck because I have no liquid paper :rofl: As soon as I clean up this copy I'll post it.

Andrew T

sucahyo
10-23-2009, 02:14 AM
Are you saying that the transiter TIP2955 activates when the output of your 555 timer is low ?yes. I use NPN too because it is said that PNP like TIP2955 is less efficient.

Also I was wondering why your base resister is so high there ,1100 ohms.To limit voltage. At that value the input current is 0.7A at 10.5V. The output to the diode is 200V measured with analog, the secondary is out of range. I just found out that I don't get more than 200V because the transformer that I use has leak and make crackling sound if I reduce the base resistor value. Internal spark jumping in the coil is also seen.

Here is the video if 100 ohm base resistance on TIP2955 is used. KSC5027 resistor is bypassed too.
YouTube - Coil sparking because too many coil collapse current (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEvOprJMYgw)

If you build my circuit, change the TIP2955 base as low as possible that allow maximum output voltage without load. Make sure to use at least 2 watt version of resistor if you use 200ohm or lower. The TIP2955 will heat up as well so make sure to add heatsink to both transistor. If you have better PNP (high speed) you can use it instead.

BobBrown
10-23-2009, 11:47 AM
Hello All !

Startting to flesh out this beast. Havn't labled the timing specific components for the 555s like r1, r2, r4, r5, c2, or c5 yet. They are going to be constantly switched in and out, till I get some experimental resaults.

I had a Transistor between pin 3 of IC1 and Pin 8 of IC2, I removed the transistor and directly coupled the output of IC1 into the reset pin of IC2 , pin 4. This is supposed to switch IC2 on and off.... crossing fingers. The low signal of IC1 is still being used to trigger IC3 high.

Changed the designation of Transistors from "T" to "Q", to be a bit more like everybody else.

Added an Opto coupler to teh output of IC3, conecting it to Q3 which should trigger Q4 and Q5 to open and dump C7. Note change from SCR to a pair of transistors. I'm thinking I'lll get better control of current flow ( timing ) this way.

I've added a diode between pins 1 and 2 of the opto coupler, but I don'tthink it should be there, and may actualy be a component insided the opto, wil have to research further.

Over all this should be easyer to read , and hopfuly make more sence then the original schematic.

Thankyou for your patience and input.

Andrew T

sucahyo
10-24-2009, 03:12 AM
Hello,

some suggestion:
- Pin 4 only reset when the signal goes from ON to OFF, so IC1 will make the IC2 reset on every OFF signal. This won't make IC2 switched on and off., from spec: "The circuit may be triggered and reset on falling waveforms,". I think this is not what you want.
- optocoupler is slow, should never been used if you want the transistor to switch fast.
- using two transistor in parallel might reduce efficiency since they would not switch at the same time. You have to tune them for same speed. I got better output when I remove parallel transistor on my previous experiment.
- capacitor may change the current to normal battery heating current. I don't use capacitor anymore either in parallel or by dumping.

Inquorate
10-24-2009, 02:27 PM
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4887-method-dump-cap-voltage-battery.html

Love and light

BobBrown
10-24-2009, 07:07 PM
Hello all !

Thankyou so much for the posts, my brain is loving the food !!

:notworthy: :notworthy: :thanks: :thanks: :notworthy: :notworthy:
Hehe, What if, instead of using a 555 timer to time the coil pulse and, Capacitor dump. I instead tolk a 741ic and used it as a comparator, using the sample side ( pin 2 ) to measure the voltage at the capacitor. When the voltage got to EXX amount, the 741 would go high, starting the Capacitor dump. At the same time signaling the 555 timer to stop pulsing the coil.


Andrew T, from BobBrown's Bedini type Solid State Trial
Schematic at post 11

Hmm,
Would or should eliminate IC1, the 555 timer I'm using to separate the Capapacitor dump from the coil pulsing timing.

Ah dear, have I done a bad by cross posting?
:hug:

BobBrown
10-24-2009, 07:20 PM
Hello,

some suggestion:
- capacitor may change the current to normal battery heating current. I don't use capacitor anymore either in parallel or by dumping.


I thought so. But however, isn't that the point. I'm told, and maybe I don't know what to believe, but that the radiant charge without using the capacitor dump, can not be properly utilized in our modern machinery.
House electrics to be specific.

I must check on the switching speed of the opto. I'm sure it will function well at my initial pulse rate of 60 hz. But I'm planning on going as high as 600 khz if things go well. I'm told the 555 can goto 600 khz with little problem.


I'll try to match the 2 transisters as close as possible, probably only need the one transiter, but I'll double it to be safer. Hmm, your talking sharp on / off timing for the pulse into the battery.... Hmm. Maybe I can add another transistor in the Darlington set up, to increase the speed of the switch ?

Opto -> switching transitor -> switching transister -> double transistor dump ? (((((((((((Double Darlington )))))))))) :grindaisy:

Or would increasing the switching voltage to 20 or 24 volts, instead of just shy of 12 volts be better...... Ack, my heads starting to hurt.


Andrew T
You see now why I never get enything done. I can never decide whats best:wall:

sucahyo
10-26-2009, 04:35 AM
I'm told, and maybe I don't know what to believe, but that the radiant charge without using the capacitor dump, can not be properly utilized in our modern machinery.I see, I use it for primitive brushed dc motor. I guess capacitor is needed to convert radiant into common electricity.

I must check on the switching speed of the opto.Check signal off time too. I have Sharp PC817 with signal off time is 18000 nano second max, where NE555 is 300 nano seconds max, my opto 600 times slower than my NE555 in spec.


Maybe I can add another transistor in the Darlington set up, to increase the speed of the switch ?I use NPN and PNP combination but I guess that work too. See attachment.

Just build simple one first :). Then add voltage sensing once the basic work. On my previous cap dumping circuit, I use my one wire neon as indicator. It usually light up very bright if full. At 2 Hertz the cap never reach full capacity.

BobBrown
10-26-2009, 01:25 PM
I thought so. But however, isn't that the point. I'm told, and maybe I don't know what to believe, but that the radiant charge without using the capacitor dump, can not be properly utilized in our modern machinery.
House electrics to be specific.

Andrew T
best:wall:

I just remember where I got that Idea that the radiant charge does not work for things. Its from Bedini himself, in that in the SSG the secondary could not be used in place of the primary, because the secondary would eventualy be destroyed. IE : No swapping of batteries.

I guess in the back of my mind I just figgered if thats the case then its true for most all aplications. However I have no proof and this is just my own supossition,

Sorry for misleading you.

Andrew T
If my mind can be improved then this web site will be the best spot to start:
PATHS ~ Mind Energetics (http://www.infinitypaths.com)

sucahyo
10-27-2009, 01:33 AM
I just remember where I got that Idea that the radiant charge does not work for things. Its from Bedini himself, in that in the SSG the secondary could not be used in place of the primary, because the secondary would eventualy be destroyed. IE : No swapping of batteries.

I guess in the back of my mind I just figgered if thats the case then its true for most all aplications. However I have no proof and this is just my own supossition, I see. Ok. I also have read that radiantly charged battery should never be allowed to power radiant circuit. I don't know the reason behind this my self.