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Bit's-n-Bytes
06-19-2009, 03:21 PM
I hope the upload of the PIC's works as it will save me a lot of description of my issue. First a big thanks to John Bedini, Ron Pugh and Patrick Kelly as well as all of the new generation of inventors here.

Now to my problem, I have to eliminate all base resistance in my bias circuit for the MJL21194's to get enough current flowing to maintain rotation. My coils are wound exactly to the specs in Patrick's "Chapter 6.pdf", 120ft of 18awg. Litz wound 5 conductor. I had to also add additional length on my trigger coil and feel that I need to add more. Can someone tell me what the most optimum "number of turns" are necessary for the trigger circuit. Today I am achieving about 4 to 5 volts in the trigger circuit when the RPM is about 900-1000. My drive coils are pulling about 8 amps (Vcc 12.85, coil resistance 0.8) at this RPM which is most undesirable. On a positive note, it is charging like gangbusters. Hope this gives enough info. All help is appreciated.

tjnlsn255
06-19-2009, 03:52 PM
Hi Bit's,

Are you using the basic SSG circuit with additional coils added in parrallel with only one "master" coil with trigger or do you have three seperate SSG circuits for each coil and each coil/circuit has its own trigger?

Your setup is awsome....:thumbsup:

I am planning to start with my working master trigger/coil (850 turns each of 22 and 20 wire) and just adding additional coils the circuit I found just has an additional transistor and with base and collector diodes....for each additional coil but I understand that there are many other configurations....

Is green energy free?

Tj

Mark
06-19-2009, 04:01 PM
Wow 8 amps thats quite a bit. I've never used 18 awg before the biggest i've used was 22awg and with 2 coils and 4 power windings on each coil, the highest amp draw I ever used was about 3 amps, but I could also dial it down to 1 amps or lower. I don't think you need any more winds on your trigger but I'm surprised that you have to lower your resistance down real low to get it to run. I would probably start to trouble shoot it by disconnecting 1 coil at a time to see if the speed picks up, maybe one of the coils is hooked up wrong or you fried some of the transistors. Good luck

Mark

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-19-2009, 04:13 PM
Thank you Tj and Mark for the quick reply. I am using only 1 trigger winding to trigger all drive coils. I have checked all of the coils for correct polarization, but I like your idea of starting with disconnecting 1 coil at a time to see the results.

tjnlsn255
06-19-2009, 04:16 PM
This is the schematic I found at the Monopolemotor forum....

Is this how you have your system wired?

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-19-2009, 04:19 PM
Yes, this schematic is real close.

Mark
06-19-2009, 04:19 PM
What kind of core are you using in your coils. You want to used welding rods if your not already.

And by the way your build looks sweet!!! Much nicer than mine was, and I hope those magnets are attached good.

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-19-2009, 04:29 PM
The core is 1/8th inch welding rods cut to length and resign coated to prevent eddy currents. I made sure that I used a good expoxy for the Magnets (but still stay out of the line of fire). Thanks again.

Sephiroth
06-19-2009, 05:09 PM
8 amps is definatly too much... a 12 transistor circuit shouldn't be drawing more than 2.5 - 3 amps

I'm guessing the top coil is your master.... but it looks alot fatter than your slaves. I'm guessing you have added more windings to the trigger around the outside of the coil.

Did you wind the trigger and power windings in parallel or are all the trigger windings on the outside of the coil? Also, do you know the resistance of the trigger windings and approx how many turns it was originally before you added some more?

And (sorry if it is a stupid question) are you sure all the transistors are firing?

Beautiful motor by the way :thumbsup: reminds me of Lee's original tri coil set up :D

Peter Lindemann
06-19-2009, 05:11 PM
Dear Bits,

Nice work. Here are two photos of the closest machine John and I built in 2004 to the one you are building now. Please notice the extremely short circuit paths made of large diameter wire or copper tube. This machine was a 24 volt machine designed to run on 6 amps, which is 1 amp per coil (4 wires per coil) and .25 amps per transistor. Only one coil had the trigger winding that produced sufficient trigger to fire all 24 transistors simultaneously.

http://www.free-energy.ws/images/6coil6.jpg

http://www.free-energy.ws/images/6coil7.jpg

For more pictures of this machine being built, go to: New Page 2 (http://www.icehouse.net/john34/kron.html)

Good luck,

Peter

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-19-2009, 05:15 PM
Tj, I think that you are right on with the 850 turns and I believe that is where mine is comining up short. With 120ft of 18awg for which mine are wound with, I only have about 450 turns. The formula for magnetic strength is amps x # of turns. I would like to get to a design that basically pulls about 2 to 3 amps so 3 x 850 = 2550 Mag strentgh and today mine is 8 x 450 = 3600. I'll opt for the lower amps with almost the same strength.

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-19-2009, 05:20 PM
Peter so very nice to meet you. I have read alot of your's and John's work. Basically, you are saying short as possible for the collector and emitter runs, or for the base circuit as well?

Thanks again.

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-19-2009, 05:27 PM
Sephiroth, you have a good eye. Yes the top coil is the master trigger coil. All coils I wound equally with 120ft (5 ea. 18AWG Litz method). I think this yeild about 450 turns and about 0.8 Ohms of resistance. Using one of the coils for a trigger, I was only yeilding about 1.6 volts spinng the rotor by a drill. I then added as much wire (18 AWG) to one of the original wires as I could get on the spool, now about 650 yeilding about 4 to 6 volts. Additionally, all wires are in parallel until the additional trigger wire being added. I have checked all of the transistors (which I just replaced after being sold fake ones from Ebay) and they are all firing fine.

Peter Lindemann
06-19-2009, 05:43 PM
Peter so very nice to meet you. I have read alot of your's and John's work. Basically, you are saying short as possible for the collector and emitter runs, or for the base circuit as well?

Thanks again.

Bits,

Yes, the machine is a very high frequency machine and every inch of stray wire acts as an impedance in the system. Notice that John and I even mounted two large capacitors, right at the input, to neutralize all of the inductance of the wire lengths leading to the machine. Also, once a machine was finished, John always fussed with the trigger system to balance the machine's operation. The method of multiple triggering is a bit tricky. You might want to look into some of the other threads for pointers on that.

Peter

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-19-2009, 05:52 PM
Awesome! Looks like I'll be in for a bit of re-work though. To quote Thomas Edison "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work".

Thanks again Peter.

Sephiroth
06-19-2009, 06:06 PM
I think you are right... 450 is very low and is most likely the problem... though remember having more windings on the trigger than the primary will have the effect of a step up transformer so ideally you would need to increase the power windings as well...

can't wait to see it going! :thumbsup:

Peter Lindemann
06-19-2009, 06:08 PM
Bits,

Here are a few final pointers. First, look at the pictures of the build we did. We used 1/16th inch diameter, copper coated welding rod and did NOT insulate them from each other. Eddy currents in the core are NOT a problem in these machines. Second, when the rotor is finished, we ALWAYS wrapped it in strapping tape as a final insurance policy against glue failure and magnet launch. Do not fail to do this. Third, 120 feet of #18 wire is more than sufficient for your coils and trigger. Take all of the extra windings off and balance the system with the resistors. Fourth, as you can see from the photos, the trigger winding comes out and goes directly to the ON/OFF switch, then to the light bulb, then to the silver colored loop, then to 6 identical resistors, one each to the transistor blocks, and then one more resistor to each transistor base. The trick is to get all of the transistors to SHARE the trigger current equally, so that each transistor draws about .25 amps. Balancing the system to run on 12 volts will require a different set of resistors than other run voltages.

Good luck,

Peter

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-19-2009, 06:10 PM
Sephiroth

I do have a video of this working but can't upload that here. Can I email to you?

Sephiroth
06-19-2009, 06:13 PM
We used 1/16th inch diameter, copper coated welding rod and did NOT insulate them from each other. Eddy currents in the core are NOT a problem in these machines.

Wow... I didn't expect that!

But did you intentionally choose to allow eddy currents in the core? You say it isn't a problem but does it have some benefit?

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-19-2009, 06:18 PM
Peter, thanks for pointing out the trigger circuit. In this 24v model, is the resistors connecting to the transistor blocks 22 Ohm and the individual base resitors 470 Ohm? I will get some strapping tape on the magnets, thanks for the advice.

uusedman
06-19-2009, 06:20 PM
Hi Peter,

Is there a reason why the extremely short circuit paths? How or maybe why the use of 12 transistors when there is only 6 coils?
What kind of tests did you run? If yes, can you please share them with us?

Many Thanks



@Bit's-n-Bytes
beautiful design, I guess may question is at you too, you have 3 coils and 14 transistors, what for?


Dear Bits,

Nice work. Here are two photos of the closest machine John and I built in 2004 to the one you are building now. Please notice the extremely short circuit paths made of large diameter wire or copper tube. This machine was a 24 volt machine designed to run on 6 amps, which is 1 amp per coil (4 wires per coil) and .25 amps per transistor. Only one coil had the trigger winding that produced sufficient trigger to fire all 24 transistors simultaneously.

For more pictures of this machine being built, go to: New Page 2 (http://www.icehouse.net/john34/kron.html)

Good luck,

Peter

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-19-2009, 06:25 PM
Uusedman, 3 coils (spools) 5 total wires per spool, in top spool, 1 wire used for trigger circuit. 15 in all coils, minus 1 for trigger, leaves 14 coils to be activated ea by their own transistor.

Hope this helps

Peter Lindemann
06-19-2009, 06:29 PM
Peter, thanks for pointing out the trigger circuit. In this 24v model, is the resistors connecting to the transistor blocks 22 Ohm and the individual base resitors 470 Ohm? I will get some strapping tape on the magnets, thanks for the advice.

Bits,

470 Ohms is always the best place to start for a single coil unit, but in these multiple coil systems, with shared triggers, lower values were used. 22 Ohms to the blocks is a good place to start, with 220 Ohms to each transistor base. We had bins of every value resistor available, so tuning was relatively easy. Also, we used 2 watt resistors in the bigger machines.

Start with one block and get it running right with the transistors drawing about .25 amps each. Then, just duplicate that system to the other blocks and it should work great.

Peter

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-19-2009, 06:38 PM
Great information Peter, I can't thank you enough.

tjnlsn255
06-19-2009, 10:11 PM
Bit's,

Are you using 18 g wire for your trigger? If so I have been told that is way to large.... they normally are 26 or 24 .... I use 22 but only because I have it on hand.... as I understand it you do not want the trigger circuit to consume extra current as that makes the motor less efficient..... also it makes a large current available to the base of the transistor and that can make it very hot and that is not a good thing.....LOL

I hope this is correct.... someone if not please let me know.....

Have a most excellent adventure....

Tj

ren
06-20-2009, 12:39 AM
Not necessarily so TJ.

Ive used AWG 18 as a trigger before, and so has John I believe. I read somewhere that the huge 240watt machine (10 pole) used OTT number 6 (?) stranded wire, with 5 strands available on each coil.

I believe this wire is pre fabricated like this, in other words, it comes pre twisted, however I could be wrong.

Anyway, I read John talking about this machine saying it had 49 power strands, implying to me that the 1 final strand was left for triggering.

So saying, it may work better in some instances to have a thinner gauge for the trigger, perhaps more so in a smaller build.

Id start back on one coil and get it running like the specs shared above by Peter. Try 100 ohms and a 1k pot and fish around for a good resistance setting on one coil with only one power winding functioning. Seps suggestion of switching on/off power windings is a good one. I have done that and it helped me track down a non functioning transistor.



Regards

Peter Lindemann
06-20-2009, 01:38 AM
Not necessarily so TJ.

Ive used AWG 18 as a trigger before, and so has John I believe. I read somewhere that the huge 240watt machine (10 pole) used OTT number 6 (?) stranded wire, with 5 strands available on each coil.

I believe this wire is pre fabricated like this, in other words, it comes pre twisted, however I could be wrong.

Anyway, I read John talking about this machine saying it had 49 power strands, implying to me that the 1 final strand was left for triggering.

So saying, it may work better in some instances to have a thinner gauge for the trigger, perhaps more so in a smaller build.

Id start back on one coil and get it running like the specs shared above by Peter. Try 100 ohms and a 1k pot and fish around for a good resistance setting on one coil with only one power winding functioning. Seps suggestion of switching on/off power windings is a good one. I have done that and it helped me track down a non functioning transistor.

Regards

Ren,

You are mostly correct. The 10 coil machine was made with 18 gauge wire. Each coil had 4 strands of #18 wire, except the coil that had the trigger in it. That one had 5 strands. John and I would measure out the wire from the back of the shop wall all the way out into the parking lot (about 120 feet). Then, the strands were bundled and tightened into a drill chuck out in the parking lot and tied off to the back wall of the shop. Then, using the electric drill, we created the "twisted wire sets" ourselves. We kept twisting until there was about ONE TWIST PER INCH of linear length. So that machine had 41 strands, not 49. That's 10 coils with 4 strands each, plus one trigger.

I hope this helps.

Peter

ren
06-20-2009, 02:04 AM
many thanks Peter for setting the record straight.

Its great to see that even the masters stretch out their wire and twist it together just like us amateurs. The local sports field has my tracks worn into one of its lengths:D

I was trying to relocate the information I read regarding the monopole in question. I believe it was on a PES site? It was a series of emails between John, yourself and Sterling discussing this and that.

In it I am quite sure John said the wire was OTT stranded wire, which lead me to search for WHAT OTT stood for. Funnily enough I found some OTT wire on Ebay, and thus I drew the conclusion that the wire was pre twisted upon purchase.

I can see now that you guys built this from scratch, doing the twisting yourself. Johns reference to OTT could have simply meant "off the table" or something equally non important, or perhaps I misunderstood the sentence.

Of course there is the ever looming possibility that I got it all wrong, and there are no references to OTT at all:suprise: :rofl:

Im sure I will come across that page again in my travels. Thanks for your help.

Regards


EDIT: Page found here John Bedini and Peter Lindemann's Medium and Large Motor-Energizer Project (http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Inventors/JohnBedini/SG/Feb2005/index.html)

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-20-2009, 12:51 PM
Success:thumbsup: Guy's you are awesome. I changed the resistance as instructed by Peter, tuning one by one each transistor. Let me say that I am now down to about 3 amps "total draw" and have picked up RPM. I am going to implement further suggestions has time permits. I will be designing a method in which to "auto sense" two separate 24V battery banks that I use for my grid tie inverter and while being charged from this device, be able to "roll" the charging / load process. I built a data logger using a PICAXE 18x chip design for my wind gen's and will program this to monitor and log this process. Would it be safe to say that a cap should be installed on the outgoing charge terminals? If so, what should the uf and voltage rating be? I will provide more info on the finished product as I get to that point.

Thanks again

Bit's

Iotayodi
06-20-2009, 01:45 PM
Of course there is the ever looming possibility that I got it all wrong, and there are no references to OTT at all

He was probably thinking "ought". Electricians use this term on larger sized feeder wires. They are designated by the zeros. One zero is called 1 ought. 2 zeros are 2 ought and so forth. The more zeros the higher the amperes that can be used.
American Wire Gauge table and AWG Electrical Current Load Limits (http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm)

Bit's-n-Bytes
06-21-2009, 07:10 PM
I think you are right... 450 is very low and is most likely the problem... though remember having more windings on the trigger than the primary will have the effect of a step up transformer so ideally you would need to increase the power windings as well...

can't wait to see it going! :thumbsup:



Here is the You tube url;

YouTube - MOV00956 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-4-K94Dsb4)

Peter Lindemann
06-21-2009, 11:11 PM
Here is the You tube url;

YouTube - MOV00956 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-4-K94Dsb4)

Dear Bits,

It looks like your model is working quite well, now. Congratulations! Keep up the great work.:thumbsup:

Peter

Mark
06-22-2009, 01:06 AM
:thumbsup: GOOD JOB BITS, LOOKS GREAT!

uusedman
06-25-2009, 05:55 PM
What kind of material did use for the rotor?

selnet
08-29-2009, 05:14 PM
Mr Lindemann !
I read your usefull explainings about this theme; thank you for all of your helps
I would be very happy if I see the exact circuit of this 6 coil machine.Is the trigger winding at the top of the other
four windings in only one coil (to be the last fifth winding)? And which transistors and capacitors have you used?
I 'm about to buil a four coil system but yet I didn't have the result that I wished and I want to adapt this circuit
to my coils.The result I 'll send here Thanks in advance.

nvisser
09-17-2009, 08:14 PM
Hi Peter
You mentioned that this 10 coiler draw 6 amps @24v
Can you give us any indication on what the output of this machine was and was it only used to charge batteries?

Badger
05-31-2011, 06:50 AM
Success:thumbsup: Guy's you are awesome. I changed the resistance as instructed by Peter, tuning one by one each transistor. Let me say that I am now down to about 3 amps "total draw" and have picked up RPM. I am going to implement further suggestions has time permits. I will be designing a method in which to "auto sense" two separate 24V battery banks that I use for my grid tie inverter and while being charged from this device, be able to "roll" the charging / load process. I built a data logger using a PICAXE 18x chip design for my wind gen's and will program this to monitor and log this process. Would it be safe to say that a cap should be installed on the outgoing charge terminals? If so, what should the uf and voltage rating be? I will provide more info on the finished product as I get to that point.

Thanks again

Bit's

Hi Bits,

I know its a while since you posted this message however I'm interested in the outcome and how many batterys can be charged of it.

Regards,
Badger

Bit's-n-Bytes
05-31-2011, 11:42 AM
Hi Bits,

I know its a while since you posted this message however I'm interested in the outcome and how many batterys can be charged of it.

Regards,
Badger

Indeed it's been a while since this post. Much has developed over this time. I have charged many batteries wiith this three coiler, but haven't stopped there. You might find interest in the 10 coiler thread or the many other discussions continuing with the great folks on this forum.

Bit's

ZeropointEnergy
06-12-2011, 02:46 PM
Hey Bits,

I just read the thread and seens the pics/youtube clip and is a
great design.

How are the improvements and modifications coming along
with the set up? and have you made the current draw more
efficient?

I'm going to make a 4 coiler as next SSG project with 2 triggers
and was thinking of using 8-10 transistors with AWG #22-23.
(have on hand)
Trigger will be #26 AWG (0.4mm)

After reading what Peter wrote about the difficulty with multiple
triggers I still want to see what I have learnt and looking forward
to the challenge of time the firing sequence.
Will be hours of watching 2 channels on the oscilloscope and moving
a coil slightly till correct phase and timing:D

Keep up the great work and thanks to all to posted here and
I will use all this amazing information to save time on my
upcoming 4 coiler.

Regards
Zero:thumbsup:

Bzar
09-30-2012, 12:59 AM
So let me get this straight....

To add more power coils to the bedini you just need 1 trigger? Does that mean every other coil except the master (trigger + power bifiler) is a single wire coil with rods in the middle?

Does each power coil add more RPM / Torque?

thanks.

tachyoncatcher
09-30-2012, 01:36 AM
@Bzar,
I would put as many winding on a coil as possible. I have read of many different theories on coil winding. I just grabbed a group of wires the same length and wound them on a coil in parallel. I litzed my first trigger/power coil, 3 filar (3 wires). Then just wrapped the rest of my coils 5 filar, no litz. Each wire has its own transistor connected to that single trigger. Mount the transistors for each coil on the same heatsink or base plate. Use a good dielectric CONDUCTING grease between the trans and heatsink. Regular heatsink grease is non-conducting(don't use). This way you don't have to worry too much about one of the transistor taking all the abuse when a clip falls off the battery:suprise: .
Yes, each coil adds power, torgue and RPM.
Good Luck!
Randy

Bzar
09-30-2012, 03:11 AM
thanks for the reply tachyoncatcher.

Just to clarify before I buy some parts.....if I make a couple more 2 filar coils with awg 24 wire, and connect them as in this schem...
http://www.energeticforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3023
space them and the magnets properly....I'd hopefully have a multi coil ssg? :)

cheers,

Great thread.

tachyoncatcher
09-30-2012, 03:50 AM
Determine the best resistance value for your coil and battery you are charging, with your pot. Measure the resistance of that pot to determine the base resistance of the other coils. Add a 22 ohm resistor next to the pot. Also a grain of wheat bulb(12v 250-500ma). In serial, pot, 22 ohm resistor, grain of wheat bulb, then to other coil resistors as in the schem. Since your machine is horizontal, you can move the coil around for the best position, while running. Add one coil at a time.
I used a automotive, inductance timing light on the output of the primary coil to the charging battery. I can see the position of the magnets to the primary coil, while running, and just matched that up with the other coils to start my coil position tuning.
Good luck.
Randy

Bzar
09-30-2012, 05:02 AM
right on, thanks for the tips. I'll post some pics and a vid once it's done :)
cheers.

SHYMAN
08-17-2014, 12:10 AM
I have used this forum very little, or any forum for that matter. I have a strong interest in building a machine similar to the Ron Pugh version of the Bedini charger. I also have an interest in the Adams Motor machine. (At this point...I believe in these two concepts. Tell me if I'm wrong!" ...is there something better?)

I go to this forum (and others) and find that the "serious" interest in both of these concepts happened 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, or more years ago. And for that matter all efforts seem to have been very feeble. Can I assume that throughout all these years that NOTHING OF ANY SIGNIFICANCE has developed concerning these machines? Bottom line...are they a hoax?

It is an understatement to say that I'm a "newbie" but I have put hundreds of hours into evaluation of all matters relating to such concepts and the many many variables necessary before one can grasp the subtleties and possibilities inherent within these o/u (for lack of a better phrase) principles.

Should I be directing my interests in another direction? Is there a better concept that is replacing the Adams motor and Bedini charger. Be careful...everything seems to come back to the Adams principal.

I do have the capabilities to grasp whatever is out there, I am a "self-taught" mechanical and electrical engineer (I got paid for it for 25 years...now retired).

Is there anybody out there that can steer me in the right direction. I now have time to build and develop prototypes. But I want input from people smarter than I am. I want to build into something that has potential for advancement and success! And hey, I'm not dumb enough to think I'm going to get off the grid next week! Or anybody else for that matter.

I would like to hear from you!.

best regards,