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dambit
05-12-2009, 05:10 AM
Hi Guys,

Just saw the latest EFTV DVD :thumbsup: and would and would like to construct a Kromery Converter. Has anyone here done this already or knows more of the details. The DVD was very informative, however it left out a few things. For example, what is the black thing on the top of the converter? (looks like a dc motor to me), are the coils wound for a certain polarity? etc.

It all looks reasonably simple, however looks can be decieving. :rofl:

Cheers everyone.

Steve.

Peter Lindemann
05-12-2009, 05:20 AM
Hi Guys,

Just saw the latest EFTV DVD :thumbsup: and would and would like to construct a Kromery Converter. Has anyone here done this already or knows more of the details. The DVD was very informative, however it left out a few things. For example, what is the black thing on the top of the converter? (looks like a dc motor to me), are the coils wound for a certain polarity? etc.

It all looks reasonably simple, however looks can be decieving. :rofl:

Cheers everyone.

Steve.

Steve,

Everything is based on Raymond Kromrey's US Patent #3,374,376. Start there. The "black thing" on the top was the DC drive motor.

Peter

dambit
05-12-2009, 05:22 AM
Steve,

Everything is based on Raymond Kromrey's US Patent #3,374,376. Start there. The "black thing" on the top was the DC drive motor.

Peter

Thanks Peter,

I figured it was the drive motor but wasn't sure. Based on what John says in the dvd it seems like a pretty intersting device.

Cheers,

Steve

ren
05-12-2009, 10:50 PM
Ive had a little read of the patent. Its an interesting read. I dont like the idea of rotating the coils, but it appears that it can be configured with them on the stator. Will be looking more into this, have ordered EFTV10 for my viewing pleasure.

ashtweth
05-13-2009, 12:30 AM
Another question is where are those at MIT now...hmm

dambit
05-13-2009, 02:31 AM
Ive had a little read of the patent. Its an interesting read. I dont like the idea of rotating the coils, but it appears that it can be configured with them on the stator. Will be looking more into this, have ordered EFTV10 for my viewing pleasure.

The way JB has them setup in the vid is a lot better than the patent. Very simple.

My only question is, do the coils have to be wound in a certain direction for each polarity? I guess I'll have my answer when I go to turn it on. Knowing my luck they will all be backwards or something. :rofl:

MIT probably did develop them and then sold them off. Who knows, they probably run the place with them.:rofl:

Cheers,

Steve

redeagle
05-13-2009, 12:02 PM
The way JB has them setup in the vid is a lot better than the patent. Very simple.

My only question is, do the coils have to be wound in a certain direction for each polarity? I guess I'll have my answer when I go to turn it on. Knowing my luck they will all be backwards or something. :rofl:

MIT probably did develop them and then sold them off. Who knows, they probably run the place with them.:rofl:

Cheers,

Steve

direction of coil wind makes no difference if you are doing a single strand on a single coil. but it does matter if you are going multi stand and multi coil you have to make sure that you have the right ends tied together just like any other generator. If you have just the two coil model that is spinning the magnets instead of spinning the coils you can use two double pole double throw switches to switch from voltage and amperage and ac and dc output.

Im hoping to build a smaller one myself that will fit inside one of those cd holders. i have the motor for it already. just have to get the generator part made. mounting to the stainless shaft is the hardest part that I have run into so far.

dambit
05-14-2009, 02:15 AM
Hi Red,

Thanks for the info about the coils, I didn't even know there was a two coil version. I am building one very similar to the machine shown on the DVD with the four coils in series. I'm still deciding if I should make them with the three paralelled windings or just keep it simple and only have the one winding.

As far as the shaft goes, I have managed to get one made out of a rigid plastic. I can't recall the type but it should be a good "axle" as this isn't a torque motor. Also, being made from plastic makes it easy to drill holes into for attaching the coils etc.

Cheers,

Steve

dambit
05-28-2009, 11:54 AM
Hi All,

Just though I would post a pic of my replication of the converter. It is 90% complete. All I need to add are the coils and a bridge rectifier for the output. I have copied the device Bedini shows on the DVD only I have used three magnet pairs instead of two. I have a feeling I will need a bigger drive motor. It looks tiny :rofl:

Cheers,

Steve

gmeat
05-29-2009, 02:13 AM
Looking good Steve:thumbsup:


-Gary

ashtweth
05-29-2009, 02:27 AM
Whooly crap Steve:notworthy:
(scientific term)

dambit
05-29-2009, 04:31 AM
Thanks guys. I just hope it works :rofl: wont know until I get the coils installed.

tjnlsn255
05-29-2009, 11:23 AM
Does anyone have a link to the patent pages or a .pdf of a document describing this device?

When I search for this patent it comes up with no results....

Is free energy green?

Tj

Paul Harmans
05-29-2009, 01:00 PM
Looks really good Steve!

What kind of sliprings do you use and where can I buy them?

wrtner
05-29-2009, 01:53 PM
Does anyone have a link to the patent pages or a .pdf of a document describing this device?

When I search for this patent it comes up with no results....

Is free energy green?

Tj
Try PAT2PDF - Free PDF copies of patents: Download and print! (http://www.pat2pdf.org)

Is free energy green? I do not know of a FE project that is
not pretty much entirely CO2 free, but there may be an exception.
Paul-R

dambit
05-29-2009, 02:34 PM
Looks really good Steve!

What kind of sliprings do you use and where can I buy them?

Hi Paul,

The sliprings are brass and are custom made. I couldn't find anyone in my area that sold them. I am lucky to have found a good machinist who doesn't charge too much as almost everything except the magnets is custom.

Cheers,

Steve

Paul Harmans
05-29-2009, 08:23 PM
Thank you Steve, same problem here in the Netherlands, no slip rings, no usable electric motor, no aluminum rods, no copper wire, no… today it seems you have to buy a full equipped car engine, because most of all those salesclerks don't know the separate parts by name anymore. But alright, I have to make these slip rings myself.

I have the Energy From The Vacuum part 10 DVD, but I still have some questions. Maybe there will be more specific info (from John Bedini himself on his website?) about the exact dimensions of the vital parts. Do you know the diameter of the coils core? I guess the core will be a massif steel bar? Fixed onto the nonmagnetic axle.

dambit
05-30-2009, 01:00 AM
Thank you Steve, same problem here in the Netherlands, no slip rings, no usable electric motor, no aluminum rods, no copper wire, no… today it seems you have to buy a full equipped car engine, because most of all those salesclerks knows the separate parts by name anymore. But alright, I have to make these slip rings myself.

I have the Energy From The Vacuum part 10 DVD, but I still have some questions. Maybe there will be more specific info (from John Bedini himself on his website?) about the exact dimensions of the vital parts. Do you know the diameter of the coils core? I guess the core will be a massif steel bar? Fixed onto the nonmagnetic axle.


Hi Paul,

For my coil cores I just randomly chose a 12mm diameter. The way I have designed it is to use 4 separate cores, each with a 1/4" threaded hole that is 10mm deep. The cores are then connected to each other through the shaft using 1/4" threaded rod. Both the cores and the rod are made from mild steel. The pic should make it clearer.

Cheers,

Steve.

Paul Harmans
05-30-2009, 06:54 AM
Thanks again Steve, seems the right way, I suppose you are drilling a hole in the threaded rod to slide it in, and connect it to the axle? Do you use ball bearings on your axle? (Apologize for all my questions)

Friday evening I did find the correct motor, see picture. It is made in Germany and the specifications are:

VDO (brand name)
Antriebstechnik (drive technique)
Type: M48x50/T
Spannung: 12 V -
Drehzahl: 3050 1/min bei 10 Ncm (rpm)
Best. Nr.: 211310 (order nr.)

dambit
05-30-2009, 08:37 AM
Hi Paul,

I am using a 12mm diameter main shaft and have drilled holes through this. This way, as I screw the coil cores together they tighten and grip the shaft.

I think by doing it this way I can keep the centre of the core solid and not have it interupted by drilling a hole though it. Not sure if it makes a difference as far as the magnetic flux goes but you never know.

Cheers,

Steve.

dambit
06-01-2009, 06:26 AM
Hi All,

Just thought I would post a pic of what happens when you forget to reinforce the coils for high speed rotation. :eek: :rofl:

Costly mistake. I now only have one good coil left and need to get the other three rewound. :wall:

Cheers,

Steve

baroutologos
06-01-2009, 06:49 AM
Good job dambit!

You demonstrate excellent machining skills in your project! With such a jeal, abilities and the replication of a real OU device i think you have great chances in achieving The final goal. Well done.

By the way, can you provide the coils specs?

regards,

Baroutologos

ps: seems to me 24 awg at 50 ohm more or less :P

dambit
06-01-2009, 08:57 AM
Thanks for the kind words.

I must confess I didn't do the machining personaly. I pay others to do that. I just stick to doing the designs and drawings.

The coils are trifilar wound and are made of 0.28mm wire with just over 800 turns. Each strand measures between 13 and 14ohms.

I was planing to post a vid of it lighting some bulbs, but seeing as I now have to get the coils rewound, I am hoping to do that tomorrow. If it works that is. :rofl:

Cheers,

Steve

ren
06-01-2009, 10:04 AM
dang, Been there Dambit. Force a laugh and move on buddy:thumbsup: What else can you do.

Made a good mess of it. At least you see the humor somewhat by posting a pic of the destruction.

Look forward to seeing it in action.

Mark
06-01-2009, 02:06 PM
Damit, that sucks! Hey do you want me to untangle that for ya :rofl:

Good luck,

Mark

nilrehob
06-01-2009, 02:51 PM
Doh! time and copper are expensive!
I hope You are up and running again soon!

Shamus
06-01-2009, 10:27 PM
Hey Steve,

Been there and done that--I feel your pain, man. :) I think that from the pictures of the G-field that Ron Cole made that he figured that it didn't matter if you rotated the coils or rotated the magnets. I think if I build one, I'm going to go for moving magnets since then you don't need slip rings and other attendant problems such as coils flying into magnets at high speed. ;)

Good luck with your replication! I'm looking forward to the videos when you're finished! :thumbsup:

dambit
06-02-2009, 12:26 AM
I think if I build one, I'm going to go for moving magnets since then you don't need slip rings and other attendant problems such as coils flying into magnets at high speed. ;)

Hi Shamus,

It would be easier to rotate the magnets but they do weigh a fair bit so a larger drive motor may be needed. Mind you this would mean that the magnets themselves would act as a flywheel and automatically do away with the cogging that Bedini talks about. I think I'll try it that way if I build another one.

Cheers,

Steve

dambit
06-02-2009, 07:07 AM
Hi All,

Ok... First things first. The converter works. :)

The reason you are reading this and not seeing a video is because after 2 min of running the machine, another coil unspooled itself. :suprise: :wall: :wall: :wall:

This is the only remaining design problem I am having, so I will bite the bullet and redesign the coil spools so that they can have an aluminium cover slide over the outside of them. This way I figure they will hold up and look a bit better too.:thumbsup: For the short term I will simply cover the coils in heat shrink.

Before the coil shat itself, I did manage to get a couple of readings. Just by spinning the shaft with my fingers I can get upto 5V on the output. While the drive motor was running the meter registered 25V on the output. I had just hooked up a battery to charge and saw that it was indeed charging when the coil went. :(

Cheers,

Steve

Mark
06-02-2009, 11:37 AM
Hi Dambit,

I'm not sure how big your coil are but maybe you could put them inside a plastic pipe or even cover them with fiber glass resin.

dambit
06-02-2009, 01:22 PM
I thought I should post a pic of the device complete. Taken just before I turned it on and the coil broke. :(

I think heatshrink should be fine for now as far as keeping the coils together goes. Later when I get back from my trip I will redo them completely.

In the picture of the coils and shaft, the first coil is bottom left. The wires are fairly stiff so they didn't move around much, which was good. I thought aluminium tape (100mph tape for those in the airlines) would be strong enough to hold the coils together, but I guess not.:rofl:

Cheers.

Steve

baroutologos
06-02-2009, 01:48 PM
It is a beauty, is not it?

regards,
Baroutologos

nali2001
06-02-2009, 02:39 PM
Years ago I found a Kromrey document from some (if I remember correctly) German study, they made this impressive device. They stated that it never showed o.u. though... Will see if I can find the original document again.

http://home.planet.nl/~sintt000/Krom001.jpg

Paul Harmans
06-03-2009, 07:01 PM
Wasn’t here for a few day’s, but what a lot of new info! Feel sorry for you Steve about the damage to your coils, but it’s a good lesson for all of us. I’m still collecting materials, I search for some nylon rod to construct an axle.

Mark
06-03-2009, 07:52 PM
For once I would like to see some real creditable evidence of a working "over unity device" :mad:

Paul Harmans
06-03-2009, 07:58 PM
Maybe a stupid question, but I am thinking about my coils for my Kromrey. I did construct a Bedini SSG and I made my coils from pvc pipe. The SSG runs, but I did not get any over unity. Could it be that pvc reduce the outcome? If so, I need some other material for the coils for the Kromrey. What can I use, or do you know pvc is OK as well?

dambit
06-03-2009, 09:41 PM
For once I would like to see some real creditable evidence of a working "over unity device" :mad:

I'm sorry I'm having mechanical problems Mark. Next time I'll try harder and spend more money, just for you.

If you have have nothing constructive to say, you guessed it, better to say nothing at all.

Steve.

Mark
06-04-2009, 01:45 PM
Steve

My coment wasn't even dirrected at you it was in reference to Nali2001 post of the pictured device.

I think your build is very inpressive! And I wish you success.

I have spent a few thousand dollars on plans and builds and done quite a bit of research. I by no means am any kind of electrical engineer and am just learning these old technologies. What I meant is that there has been so much interest and work done on this forum by so many people that it is disappointing that know one has been able to build a "Free Energy Machine" yet. Dont take my comment personally it was not meant to be nagative toward your build. :cheers:

baroutologos
06-04-2009, 02:08 PM
@ MARK

Yes, you have right that there is a lack of OU devices in this forum (as many others as well) We are trying for that :)

One thing i have noticed about the usual irritating failure of people pursuing ou is that they go "small". That means they try to make devices too small.

Even though the technique may be the right one, if you go small chances are you will fail. In bigger proportions all things are becoming very clear. The frictions, circuit losses, etc are too small to be the prevailing factor. So the concept is proven. (OU or not OU)

Regards,
Baroutologos

dambit
06-05-2009, 02:29 AM
Sorry Mark, :o

After having reviewed the post I now understand what you were saying.

Cheers,

Steve.

Joit
06-05-2009, 09:38 AM
@Mark
I wouldnt look for this Devices what they are building in Labs, for that.
There are plenty Pages at the Web, where they did rebuild something, but they all did not work.
I think, they dont even bother, to try to get it running, just builded, and it shall run.
And all her Results are, they dont work with long Testresults. Its more like, they proove, that it cant work, then anything else.

A Friend of me told me once, that at the 60's he saw a emergency generator in a Hospital.
It was a big Thing, and once, if it been powered on with an other Motor to certain RPM, it did run by its own and powered the Hospital.
The Generator was leftover from the US Army in Frankfurt, but he only did make a Look at it, and no further Infos about it.

But just shows, that they do her Best, that Things like this dont go public.

Mark
06-05-2009, 12:01 PM
No Problem Steve,

I'm sure you were just frustrated when your coil came apart. I havent had a coil come apart but have blown apart a few rotors. One blew a hole in the back of my chair and broke a huge Dale Earnhart mirror I had. I was so upset I had to put things a way for a month.

Eventually one of us is going to get a working model and then we will all have what we've been trying so hard to do! That will be a day to celebrate. :yahoo:

Good Fortune to All

Mark

Shamus
06-05-2009, 04:31 PM
After watching the EFTV #10 and looking at the drawing JB did on the chalkboard, I am struck by the incredible simplicity of this machine. It is so simple that it almost repels the mind. I'm not kidding, it was a real lightbulb moment for me. :)

The motor is there just to turn the shaft, and that's it. All the action is in harvesting the energy of the magnetic field by using coils on the iron bars. Genius! And of course that all points back at the design of the magneto...

My head is spinning (pun intended!) at the possibilities. :thinking:

Mark
06-05-2009, 05:56 PM
Hello Steve and others

I was just reading some posts on the monople 2 group and came across this post which may help you with your build.

"You must follow the instructions Mr. Bedini gives EXACTLY. The patent has some obvious and some insipid, subtle flaws. I cannot believe they are accidental. They are difficult to go through textually in a post, but if you have an understanding of the funtion and design, then these flaws jump out at you. Mr. Bedini and I discussed these points in his shop a couple of years ago, and they will NEGATE all your efforts to get a machine to work. Just listen carefully to Mr. Bedini on the DVD and TAKE NOTES on what he says. His comments are critical." and

"Two points that jumped out at me: John's drawings were similar to the patent, but the patent diagram shows one of the coils flipped. The wire that drops down the shaft crosses to the coil on the opposite side. John also points out in the town hall meeting how the flow makes a figure 8 between the two coils. And the G-field which operates on similar principles (I believe), has the connections between coils on one side. "

Hope this helps

Mark

Shamus
06-06-2009, 04:05 AM
I'm not sure about the figure-8 flux flow; I can't even envision how you would arrange magnets/bars in such a way. Which also reminds me of how he reiterated several times that the shaft *must* be non-magnetic, that otherwise you get two separate flux loops (that look suspiciously like a sideways "8" :thinking: ). I did find it interesting that while he put a percent sign after writing the "120" he did *not* do the same when he wrote the "180" (it was a degree sign instead). Probably nothing, but who knows? ;)

Again, from the DVD and KROMREY CONVERTER (http://www.icehouse.net/john1/kromrey.html), it still seems to me to be a very simple machine and very little to get wrong. That page is quite old, BTW, seems like even now not too many people know about it. :)

dambit
06-06-2009, 07:43 AM
Hi all,

Just got back from my trip and once again I have thrown a coil. :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :rofl:

So annoying, but I did get some small measurements and will now get the coils built properly so they will not be a problem.

Before the coil went I did manage to light a 12V compact flourecent light quite brightly. The second test I did was to put a 24V GMC drill battery on the back to see if could charge it. The battery was dead and measured 22V on the meter. I turned on the machine and after only a couple of seconds the battery was reading 48V..........then coil number 4 flew apart causing me to jump back about 5 feet! :suprise: :eek:

I am also building a DC motor controller the allow me to adjust the speed of the drive motor. I read on one of Bedinis pages (or a post somewhere) that the negative energy is on a bell curve and that you need to tap it at the top of the curve. This leads me to believe that in order to "tune in" to this energy I need to be able to adjust the speed of the coils rotation. Plus, on a completely practical note, it would be better to have a soft start to avoid stress on the shaft and coil mounts.

Cheers,

Steve.

PS I posted a vid on youtube showing the device. Not running, but talking about it. I figure in about two weeks I'll have all the correct parts to make it reliable.:thumbsup:

dambit
06-06-2009, 07:53 AM
I did find it interesting that while he put a percent sign after writing the "120" he did *not* do the same when he wrote the "180" (it was a degree sign instead). Probably nothing, but who knows? ;

Hi Shamus,

I think Bedini got sidetracked when he was writing on the board. The camera man has an annoying habit of interupting John when he is about to say something vital. An example of this is when John is about to explain what is wrong with the Kromrey patent, when the camera man asks "who is Kromrey?" and the conversation goes off on a tangent and never returns.

I am so greatfull for the Videos and the information they contain, but sometimes it's like, "Aarrrggh, just let him talk and don't interupt!" :rofl:

Anyway,

Cheers

Shamus
06-06-2009, 02:23 PM
The camera man has an annoying habit of interupting John when he is about to say something vital. An example of this is when John is about to explain what is wrong with the Kromrey patent, when the camera man asks "who is Kromrey?" and the conversation goes off on a tangent and never returns.
Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing: "LET THE MAN TALK for cryin' out loud!" :mad: :wall: :( Ah well, John pretty much spelled it all out, so I guess I can't complain too much. :)

Right now I'm thinking of how to mount my magnets on a spinning magnet/stationary coil version (where have we seen *that* before, hmm? ;)). It seems there's more than one way to skin this cat. :thinking:

Good luck with your build, it looks like you've already had a small taste of success so far! :thumbsup:

theremart
06-07-2009, 09:39 PM
Bedini Town Hall article - 08/12/01 (http://keelynet.com/bedmot/bedcourt.htm)


'Free Energy' Device awes LA crowd
by Jim Townsend - editor-publisher - The National Educator

transcribed and posted on KeelyNet 08/12/01 courtesy John Bedini
we don't know the year of the article but it is believed in the late 1970s

Bill Jenkins, talk show host of the top rated KABC radio show 'Open Mind' and National co-chairman of Redeem Our Country (ROC), used his guest speaker's spot on Town Hall, to introduce a 'free energy' device to the public on March 12th.

Town Hall, a long running forum of many years, invited the dynamic Jenkins and his associates John Bedini and Steven Werth, to demonstrate a device called 'a gravity-field generator' which operates at an efficiency level of 180 percent, and is powered by a battery bank which requires no recharging.

The Town Hall meeting was held in the world famous Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles and left the audience gasping for more information than the program time would allow. (Following the program, the audience, which included representatives of public utility companies, industry and investment brokers trying to get a foot in the door, were still asking questions when we had to leave.)

Bedini, 37, is president of his own electronic firm in Sylmar (Calif.) which manufactures audio power amplifiers. He told Town Hall that instead of selling his generator patent to the highest bidder, he has placed it in the public domain, and plans to make it universally available at a nominal cost.

The project began two years ago when Bedini was listening to Bill Jenkins' radio program 'Open Mind,' 9:00PM to midnight on KABC, Los Angeles. Jenkins was interviewing Tom Bearden, a nationally-known theoretical physicist, on the subject of scalar interferometry, and the implications which the use of that fundamental electromagnetic wave has for the world.

Fascinated by what he heard, and by Bearden's references to the remarkable and little-known electronic discoveries of Nikola Tesla, the Yugoslav-American genius who was a contemporary of Thomas Edison, Bedini obtained a copy of Tesla's book of patents.

Approximately 18 months later, Bedini had synthesized a number of Tesla's electronically-revolutionary concepts, some Bearden innovations, plus his own ideas, and had produced a working model of a free energy device. 'It uses stressed, pulsed scalar waves, out of phase, which tap the energy of the zero point of vacuum. It's a perfectly natural phenomenon. You won't find the concept in the physics textbooks, but it works,' said the inventor.

Radio journalist Bill Jenkins, who introduced Bedini to the Town Hall audience, said that the generator is expected to be produced in different sizes with different power capabilities, and will be adaptable to a wide variety of uses. 'In a few weeks,' he added, 'John Bedini should be able to announce how and when the device will be made available. Meanwhile, he invites the nation's thinking people to consider the many ways in which his unprecedented scientific breakthrough can be used to solve a multitude of human and fiscal problems in this energy-hungry world,' Jenkins concluded.

NOTE: The gravity field generator is only the tip of the iceberg, (the remainder lists the ancient address of the Tesla Book Co. which is no longer in Milbrae, CA)

theremart
06-07-2009, 10:07 PM
http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/Mueller.pdf

A pdf of the 1984 Telsa Book company book.

xpskid
06-09-2009, 04:11 AM
Hi All,

Ok... First things first. The converter works. :)

The reason you are reading this and not seeing a video is because after 2 min of running the machine, another coil unspooled itself. :suprise: :wall: :wall: :wall:

This is the only remaining design problem I am having, so I will bite the bullet and redesign the coil spools so that they can have an aluminium cover slide over the outside of them. This way I figure they will hold up and look a bit better too.:thumbsup: For the short term I will simply cover the coils in heat shrink.

Before the coil shat itself, I did manage to get a couple of readings. Just by spinning the shaft with my fingers I can get upto 5V on the output. While the drive motor was running the meter registered 25V on the output. I had just hooked up a battery to charge and saw that it was indeed charging when the coil went. :(

Cheers,

Steve

Hi Steve,

Just found this group, thanks for starting it !!
I too have started a Kromrey replication based on EFV10. I've looked for others to collaborate with on some of the Bedini groups but haven't found anyone working in this area.

I guess I was thinking the mechanical portion wouldn't be that difficult and the experiments would be the windings. Until I read your posts.... sorry for the set backs...

Can you review your windings with us.... I understand you went for the trifilar approach ? Three independent circuits of two coils on each armature with a single wire between the two armatures ? Did you measure the resistance or inductance ? If you have success, I confirm with mine. If not, I'll try another approach and share the results.

It would be nice if Peter L. could share some advise on the approach to the windings. I'm still uncertain (I'm not an EE guy) on what variables affect impedance. Should I twist the trifilar before winding ? Normal three wires side by side, some sort of layer approach to reduce the inductance ?

Regards,

Timm Richardson

dambit
06-09-2009, 08:02 AM
Hi Timm,

I have used 0.28mm wire for each of my coils. I haven't twisted them or done anything special. Each coil is a seperate trifilar setup with the wires joined at each end to form a parallel setup. Each coil is then connected to the next coil in a series setup. It is important that all the coils are wound in the same way, ie clockwise or cclockwise. Coils # 3 and 4 are then simply rotated upsidedown. Each coil has approximately 800 turns. The total resistance when they are all connected in series is 17.5 ohms

I've attached a pic to make it clearer. :rofl:

As far as my mechanical problems go, I have ordered all the new parts and am now just waiting impatiently :rofl: The stuff should arrive soon enough though.

Cheers,

Steve

xpskid
06-09-2009, 12:53 PM
Hi Timm,

I have used 0.28mm wire for each of my coils. I haven't twisted them or done anything special. Each coil is a seperate trifilar setup with the wires joined at each end to form a parallel setup. Each coil is then connected to the next coil in a series setup. It is important that all the coils are wound in the same way, ie clockwise or cclockwise. Coils # 3 and 4 are then simply rotated upsidedown. Each coil has approximately 800 turns. The total resistance when they are all connected in series is 17.5 ohms

I've attached a pic to make it clearer. :rofl:

As far as my mechanical problems go, I have ordered all the new parts and am now just waiting impatiently :rofl: The stuff should arrive soon enough though.

Cheers,

Steve


Thanks Steve,

So for clarity, looking North to South across the pole piece, they are all wound the same (CW or CCW).

And you followed John's diagram in EFV10 exactly, and didn't flip the bottom rotor to make a Z pattern per Kromrey's patent.

My last few parts should be back from the machinist by weeks end. Hopefully we can compare notes soon.

Regards,

Timm

dambit
06-09-2009, 01:51 PM
Thanks Steve,

So for clarity, looking North to South across the pole piece, they are all wound the same (CW or CCW).

And you followed John's diagram in EFV10 exactly, and didn't flip the bottom rotor to make a Z pattern per Kromrey's patent.

My last few parts should be back from the machinist by weeks end. Hopefully we can compare notes soon.

Regards,

Timm

Hi Timm,

I followed Bedini exactly. Totally ignored the wiring diagram on the patent. It didn't look right to me anyway.

If you imagine winding one long coil. Cut it into four pieces, then rotate the last two upside down. That's what I've done.

I should get my redesigned coil cores and covers back tomorrow. After that it's off to the winder to get them wound. Hopefully for the final time!:rofl:
I Should be up and running again in a week or two. My new shaft coupling has to come from overseas.:(

It will be great to be able to get some data and compare it with others like yourself.

Cheers,

Steve

Aaron
06-09-2009, 02:58 PM
Each coil is a seperate trifilar setup with the wires joined at each end to form a parallel setup.

This coil concept comes around yet again. :whistle:

xpskid
06-10-2009, 06:07 PM
This coil concept comes around yet again. :whistle:

Hi Aaron,

Based on your comment, is there another thread or discussion we should read ?

Timm

Aaron
06-10-2009, 07:24 PM
Hi Timm,

Yes. Every time this coil concept has started to come up, it just drifts by the side even when more hints are made.

YouTube - Bob Teal | Magnipulsion| Missing Interview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj7oD8JG5xU)

There are multiple posts alluding to it here:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/271-electric-motor-secrets.html

http://www.energeticforum.com/46981-post29.html
From this thread:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3806-back-emf-vs-collapsing-magnetic-field-spike.html

Shamus
06-11-2009, 05:27 AM
I'm still working on building my stationary coil G-field and I expect to see much the same effects as John Bedini showed on the EFTV #10. Assuming that the testimony contained in that DVD is true and accurate (and while I have no reason not to accept it, nothing beats proving it for yourself ;)) then this method of generating electricity is really quite extraordinary. And the astonishing thing is that it's a purely mechanical method. :) Maybe not so astonishing, as normal electricity generation is too. ;)

What's also surprising is the amazing simplicity of this method--I can't count how many times I looked at John's drawings of the G-field on his old website and passed it by as something uninteresting! There is obviously something here (again, assuming the testimony to be true ;)) that is worthy of deeper study. :thinking:

OK Aaron, it seems that the cat is now out of the bag and getting ready to have kittens. I think you can say what you want to say now. ;)

dllabarre
06-11-2009, 05:09 PM
http://www.energeticforum.com/46981-post29.html
From this thread:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3806-back-emf-vs-collapsing-magnetic-field-spike.html


It took a while reading through this post, and all the other posts referenced from this post, to find this:

"The gas that went into the coil is coming back as a spike because it is time compressed. The aether provides a free inwards push on anything displacing it. So when a coil is charged, this free inwards push is what is snapping the potential back to the coil on disconnect so fast virtually with no opposition. And, while it snapped back, it creates a true vacuum meaning it is free of positive potential that can cause resistance and this sucks in more energy from the vacuum with it adding to the potential....so there is a gain in potential by this mechanism. The inward snap of the potential causes a negative pressure zone...it sucks in extra potential from the vacuum. This is what the spike is and why it brings back more with it."

"When the voltage potential comes back, it draws more potential to it from the vacuum, adding to the sum of potential, which then gets transferred to a receiver...battery, capacitor, whatever. Once this potential is gathered, it has to go through "forward conversion" then it can move to a lower potential to light a bulb or whatever and as the work is being performed, that work is what energy is. What was being stored? Time. That is why time (width) doesn't show up on the spike - TIME is being conserved within that voltage potential...you'll see some width if you zoom way in at the bottom but for all pracitcal purposes, it is a spike without current."

The above makes the most sense to me of any explanation I've read so far about "the spike" we see in the SSG circuits.


"If you get a chance, please read this by Eric Dollard:
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991)
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991) (http://www.scribd.com/doc/73155/Eric-Dollard-Notes-19861991)
Read the Introduction to Dielectricity and Capacitance on pages
26-29 in the pdf." VERY interesting read!


Thank you Aaron. :cheers:

DonL

xpskid
06-11-2009, 06:59 PM
I'm still working on building my stationary coil G-field and I expect to see much the same effects as John Bedini showed on the EFTV #10. Assuming that the testimony contained in that DVD is true and accurate (and while I have no reason not to accept it, nothing beats proving it for yourself ;)) then this method of generating electricity is really quite extraordinary. And the astonishing thing is that it's a purely mechanical method. :) Maybe not so astonishing, as normal electricity generation is too. ;)

What's also surprising is the amazing simplicity of this method--I can't count how many times I looked at John's drawings of the G-field on his old website and passed it by as something uninteresting! There is obviously something here (again, assuming the testimony to be true ;)) that is worthy of deeper study. :thinking:

OK Aaron, it seems that the cat is now out of the bag and getting ready to have kittens. I think you can say what you want to say now. ;)

That's Great Shamus, because if I can get my Kromrey working properly, that's my next project to leverage my learnings to.... Keep us posted of your progress... I hope to spin my build for the first time early next week.

I have to go out of town this weekend for a ball tournament, and while my team heads for the casino at night, I'll be in my hotel room, thoroughly enjoying my time winding coils by hand. Something is wrong with me.

Timm

Aaron
06-11-2009, 07:39 PM
Some maglev trains have a Halbach Array on the bottom of the train and the track is embedded with coils under the magnets. The coils are permanently shorted coils. Basically one big fat winding where both ends are connected. You run the magnet over that and it creates a strong magnetic repulsion from the coil that pushes the magnets away and pushes the train in the air. And that magnetic field lasts longer than normal.

The coils here, Bob Teal's, etc... some magneto systems that shorts the coil... are of course not permanently shorted. But the point is, parallel coils are ultra low impedance so they can charge really fast and strong. (magneto systems aren't parallel coils but the coil gets shorted sometimes, intentionally)

But what happens after you take the power away? Parallel coils are shorted into each other.

Back EMF can work against you, but then again, it can work for you if you want it to. And I do mean the real Back EMF and not the inductive spike of course.

Maybe Bob Teal deserves another look too.

kent_elyue
06-11-2009, 08:08 PM
"If you get a chance, please read this by Eric Dollard:
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991)
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991) (http://www.scribd.com/doc/73155/Eric-Dollard-Notes-19861991)
Read the Introduction to Dielectricity and Capacitance on pages
26-29 in the pdf." VERY interesting read!


Is there any chance of obtaining a downloadable version to read offline? (The scribd website seems to invariably crash my browser.)

-kent

Aaron
06-11-2009, 08:24 PM
I don't know if that doc is really placed in the public domain or not.

I use firefox and have no problems and have downloaded quite a few free articles from scribd.

I'd recommend trying it with a freshly booted computer and nothing running in the background. Just open a browser and go straight there. The pdf reader on that site might be locking you up but maybe less of a chance of that happening with minimal things running.

Aaron
06-11-2009, 08:39 PM
I apologize for the slight off topic posts here but I think relevant. I've waited for quite a while for a serious discussion on parallel coils and am pleasantly surprised that John revealed it in this application.

Anyway, here is another system with parallel coils.

http://www.feelthevibe.com/free_energy/shortedteal.jpg

And here is the maglev stuff:

https://www.llnl.gov/str/Post.html

https://www.llnl.gov/str/gifs/Post1.gif

https://www.llnl.gov/str/gifs/Post2.gif

"The track contained some 1,000 rectangular inductive wire coils, each about 15 centimeters wide. Each coil was shorted at its ends to form a closed circuit but not otherwise connected to any electrical source."

I'm not saying the Kromrey is like the maglev, just pointing
out that after you take power away from parallel coils, you really have
coils that you short into each other. What does this do and what
is your benefit?

Again, I apologize for going slightly off topic but I just hope everyone
really takes a look at this concept deeply. What is the nature of coils
that are in parallel, you charge them and then you take away the power.

Do you want a spike back or do you want an a magnetic field that
lasts longer than it is "supposed" to.

erfinder
06-11-2009, 09:11 PM
I'm not saying the Kromrey is like the maglev, just pointing
out that after you take power away from parallel coils, you really have
coils that you short into each other. What does this do and what
is your benefit?


Please enlighten us....


Again, I apologize for going slightly off topic but I just hope everyone
really takes a look at this concept deeply. What is the nature of coils
that are in parallel, you charge them and then you take away the power.


Again please enlighten us.....


Do you want a spike back or do you want an a magnetic field that
lasts longer than it is "supposed" to.


Speaking for myself, I would love to have both, however, if I had to choose between the two, I would have to go with the magnetic field which lasts longer than its "supposed" to, as we have a really good proven method for harvesting the spikes. That being said,

please enlighten us...


Regards

redeagle
06-11-2009, 11:04 PM
It took a while reading through this post, and all the other posts referenced from this post, to find this:

"The gas that went into the coil is coming back as a spike because it is time compressed. The aether provides a free inwards push on anything displacing it. So when a coil is charged, this free inwards push is what is snapping the potential back to the coil on disconnect so fast virtually with no opposition. And, while it snapped back, it creates a true vacuum meaning it is free of positive potential that can cause resistance and this sucks in more energy from the vacuum with it adding to the potential....so there is a gain in potential by this mechanism. The inward snap of the potential causes a negative pressure zone...it sucks in extra potential from the vacuum. This is what the spike is and why it brings back more with it."

"When the voltage potential comes back, it draws more potential to it from the vacuum, adding to the sum of potential, which then gets transferred to a receiver...battery, capacitor, whatever. Once this potential is gathered, it has to go through "forward conversion" then it can move to a lower potential to light a bulb or whatever and as the work is being performed, that work is what energy is. What was being stored? Time. That is why time (width) doesn't show up on the spike - TIME is being conserved within that voltage potential...you'll see some width if you zoom way in at the bottom but for all pracitcal purposes, it is a spike without current."

The above makes the most sense to me of any explanation I've read so far about "the spike" we see in the SSG circuits.


"If you get a chance, please read this by Eric Dollard:
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991)
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991) (http://www.scribd.com/doc/73155/Eric-Dollard-Notes-19861991)
Read the Introduction to Dielectricity and Capacitance on pages
26-29 in the pdf." VERY interesting read!


Thank you Aaron. :cheers:

DonL

The high spike comes from the collapse of the magnetic field in the coil. It only appears as a spike because that's how fast the coil collapses. The force that's generating the spike is the same thing that generates electricity in any generator. Consider your traditional brushless ac generator. The voltage peaks BETWEEN the magnets. If the magnetic field were able to collapse faster it would show spikes much like the ssg. but the nature of generators the magnetics field collapses slower because the magnet is still present. In the SSG the force that generated the magnetic field is no longer present to slow down the collapse. Time cannot be altered as it is dimensionless. The time concept is much like the string theory in that it's just a theory and so far it only works on paper. You can get the same spike out of a standard generator coil. you momentarily short the coil at the point of maximum voltage. This super charges the magnetic core when the current flow stops the magnetic field collapses inducing voltage in the generator coil. The same thing can be done by pulsing dc into a transformer.

The question that remains is how does the em collapse channel the energy in heat. In order for the system to interact with the heat it must be carried by em waves. It's possible that all non shielded em systems interact with the ambient heat energy. And also possible that the kromrey converter interacts on a larger scale because of the rapid changes in flux potential. If heat is carried by a specific frequency of em wave then the kromrey converter would have to be precision tuned to tap that frequency that would explain the odd placement of bedini's magnetics and the amount of experimentation that was required to make it successful.

Aaron
06-12-2009, 01:32 AM
Please enlighten us....

Again please enlighten us.....

Speaking for myself, I would love to have both, however, if I had to choose between the two, I would have to go with the magnetic field which lasts longer than its "supposed" to, as we have a really good proven method for harvesting the spikes. That being said,

please enlighten us...

Regards

Erfinder,

I would say that I would like either the spike or extended magnetic field equally depending on what I was trying to accomplish - the goal of the circuit.

As far as enlightening anyone, I would say everyone would just have to experiment on their own with coils in parallel and see what the difference is compared to a single coil collapsing and meditate on what good it is to have an extended magnetic field.

In a solenoid, perhaps you can turn the power off sooner and still have the rod move into the coil because there is still a magnetic field pulling it in...with the power off of the coil.

It isn't anything magical - it's just out of the box - and it has taken almost 2 years it seems to get anyone experimenting with it. I have high hopes for everyone experimenting with it.

gmeat
06-12-2009, 02:00 AM
I find it interesting to note that the magnetic flux changes direction 3 times for 1 revolution from the iron core's perspective.



-Gary

cody
06-12-2009, 02:59 AM
So it seems to me that the extended magnetic field would have many applications for drive coils on motors and generator coils as well possibly. Now to figure out how to do it. Thanks for the tip :)

erfinder
06-12-2009, 10:27 AM
I would say that I would like either the spike or extended magnetic field equally depending on what I was trying to accomplish - the goal of the circuit.


I agree, I did say in the opening of my last reply that I would love to have both. The latter part of that post stated "if I had to choose between the two" assuming the choice could be made, I would choose this over that, the decision would of course be governed by circuit parameters, which are planned around the end goal.


As far as enlightening anyone, I would say everyone would just have to experiment on their own with coils in parallel and see what the difference is compared to a single coil collapsing and meditate on what good it is to have an extended magnetic field.


I agree here as well. Experiments are being carried out by myself and others I am sure along these lines, the request however, was for you to shed some light on your experiments as you brought the subject to the attention of those frequenting this thread by mentioning the particular coil configuration and relating it to the Teal patent. Teal gives no insights regarding his "specific" arrangement.


In a solenoid, perhaps you can turn the power off sooner and still have the rod move into the coil because there is still a magnetic field pulling it in...with the power off of the coil.


Why? It’s obvious that there will be a reduction in resistance and inductance; would you have us to believe that there is more? What are we missing? I cannot conceive of a mechanism which would account for this idea that "a magnetic field is pulling it in" after the source current has been removed not based solely on this wire configuration. I am open however, and am really interested in what you have to say in this regard.


It isn't anything magical - it's just out of the box - and it has taken almost 2 years it seems to get anyone experimenting with it. I have high hopes for everyone experimenting with it.



I too have high hopes for everyone experimenting along these and similar lines. It would appear that this is an area which interests many. The attached patent was dedicated to this type of configuration. Reading between the lines isn't a prerequisite the author basically tells it like it is.

It doesn’t matter if we perform 1 or 1000 experiments along these lines. No number of experiments will give the laymen the insights yourself and others have. Whether your insights are from many years of trial and error experimenting, or through the back engineering of privileged information the result is the same. You know something that we don’t. Please don’t throw a dog a bone! We don’t need nor want hints. That being said, I am justified in saying, enlighten us. Share your light, tell it like it is. We are ready.


Regards

dllabarre
06-12-2009, 02:29 PM
I find it interesting to note that the magnetic flux changes direction 3 times for 1 revolution from the iron core's perspective.
-Gary

Hi

Sorry to be picky but are you referring to the parallel coil idea or the Kromrey converter?

DonL

dambit
06-12-2009, 02:34 PM
The Kromrey converter. Specifically the setup shown in the DVD with two sets of magnet blocks.

Cheers,:thumbsup:

Steve

redeagle
06-12-2009, 06:14 PM
@Shamus

How is your stationary coil g-field going?

Aaron
06-12-2009, 07:47 PM
Please don’t throw a dog a bone! We don’t need nor want hints. That being said, I am justified in saying, enlighten us. Share your light, tell it like it is. We are ready.

I already spelled it out and it is simple enough for anyone to wind coils in parallel, charge them and take away the power. It is not more complicated that what I already explained.

Shamus
06-12-2009, 08:57 PM
@Shamus

How is your stationary coil g-field going?
I have all the parts, now I just have to assemble them so that they don't fly apart on me when I spin the thing. :) I'll definitely post more info as soon as there is more is to be had. ;)

@Aaron: Thank you for posting. That's definitely something interesting to look into. :thumbsup: :thinking:

dambit
06-13-2009, 04:36 AM
Hi Aaron,

That was a very interesting pdf. Thanks.

Steve.

gmeat
06-13-2009, 05:13 AM
Hi

Sorry to be picky but are you referring to the parallel coil idea or the Kromrey converter?

DonL



Hi Don,

I was referring to the Kromrey converter that Steve took the liberty to answer your question for me,Thx Steve:p .How's the build coming along?


-Gary

dambit
06-13-2009, 06:19 AM
Hi Garry,

The build is progressing, albeit a little slowly. I have now finished my motor speed contoller and am waiting for my new flexible shaft coupling. I have posted a pic of my shiny new coils. :D I don't think these will unspool themselves. :rofl:

Cheers,

Steve.

dllabarre
06-13-2009, 03:07 PM
What is the technical name for those round/rollers on the shaft that is used to transfer the electricity onto the brushes?

I thought they were called slip rings but when I seached on slip rings I didn't get anything that look like those. :(

Are they made of brass or copper?

Thanks
DonL

dambit
06-13-2009, 04:02 PM
Hi Don,

They are made from brass. Most slip rings are built for a specific purpose, so it may be hard to find any "off the shelf" ones that suit yours. I couldn't find any in my area as most suppliers only stocked commutators and not one piece slip rings. Any machine shop should be able to knock up a pair pretty cheaply. :thumbsup:

Cheers,

Steve

erfinder
06-13-2009, 05:11 PM
I already spelled it out and it is simple enough for anyone to wind coils in parallel, charge them and take away the power. It is not more complicated that what I already explained.

I must apologize; I have been sleeping at the wheel. You have spelled out many things, blind and arrogant I was. Forgive me..... The following was exactly what I was missing.

Directory:EV Gray - PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:EV_Gray)

Thank you very much; I have some homework to do. I shall return when I am seeing green.


Regards

Aaron
06-13-2009, 06:09 PM
Erfinder,

When you have parallel coils and turn off the power, you "short" the coils and prevent the field from collapsing too fast. You force Lenz's law to work in your favor by slowing down the decay of the magnetic field.

So in a solenoid for example, you apply power to parallel coils and it pulls in the shaft/core and if you turn off the power before it gets all the way in, there is no more power supplied to the parallel coils, but that is ok because you still have a magnetic field in the coils that has not collapsed yet and that magnetic field can do work but you aren't paying extra for it. That magnetic field being there will cause attraction to iron, etc...

I'm not trying to throw out any hints - the answer really is out in the open. In this Kromrey device, it is a different application. I'm just pointing out that coils in parallel are something that nobody is openly discussing...until now.

In the back efm vs collapsing field thread, I mentioned that there is a way to allow current to keep going in a coil after taking away the power and having coils in parallel is one way. The Leedskalnin, PMH is another. But the parallel coils is the one I was really referring to. There is current in those coils making a magnetic field and there is no power being delivered to the coil - from an external source after it has been disconnected.

In the Electric Motor Secrets thread, it was alluded to in several ways but was never a "hint" because it was always in the Bob Teal patent from the beginning - clearly available for all to see. Peter posted those quite a while back.

My original look into shorting coils, not necessarily parallel coils was in magnetos and one youtube vid from ...??? had a "perpetual" pendulum where a magnetic switch would close and short the coil. It was a man from Scotland I believe and later said the power came from a CB radio output that the circuit received wirelessly. Maybe it was or maybe it really worked but he doesn't want to admit it.

Anyway, there will probably be other things coming out soon with parallel coils, different applications, discussions, etc...

I don't want to get anyone off track from the Kromrey replication building attempts but just sharing this concept that may be of interest and value to someone.

dllabarre
06-14-2009, 02:19 AM
What are those blocks that are on top and bottom of the stacks of magnets called and made of? Where did you get them from?

What type and power of magnets are recommended?

Sorry if these questions seem nieve and were answered on the video.
I bought a copy of the video last week and still haven't received it yet.

Thank you,
DonL

dambit
06-14-2009, 02:48 AM
Hi Don,

The blocks you are refering to are just mild steel. They help make the U shape that is needed for the converter. To get a custom made U shape magnet costs a fair amount of money, so this is just a cheap way of doing it. The magnets themselves are the same magnets Bedini recomends for the SSG. 25mm x 40mm x 10mm(h). Believe me, the are pretty strong when they are joined like this.:rofl:

Bedini doesn't discuss the detailed measurments of the device so I have just guesstimated these as I went along. He does go into a reasonable amount of detail in explaining the principles of the device, and this is enough to go and design your own. (IMO, I think that is the whole point of the DVD's) I have just copied his design as to try and not deviate to far away from a design that works.

Hope this helps,

Cheers, :thumbsup:

Steve

dllabarre
06-14-2009, 03:11 AM
Hi Don,

The blocks you are refering to are just mild steel. They help make the U shape that is needed for the converter. To get a custom made U shape magnet costs a fair amount of money, so this is just a cheap way of doing it. The magnets themselves are the same magnets Bedini recomends for the SSG. 25mm x 40mm x 10mm(h). Believe me, the are pretty strong when they are joined like this.:rofl:

Hope this helps,

Steve

Thanks Steve.

Yes it does help.

Does Bedini discuss the coils at all in the video?
Size of wire?
Number of turns?
Length and diameter of coil?
Core material?

Thanks
DonL

dambit
06-14-2009, 03:29 AM
Hi Don,

No he doesn't. As I said, he explaines the principles and some minor info about the build. He does however explain how and why the coils should be wound in a trifilar fashion.

Cheers, :thumbsup:

Steve

Paul Harmans
06-14-2009, 06:47 PM
If you need a north- and a south pole on the U shape magnet stack in the Kromrey, do you have to switch halfway the stack the magnets from polarity and push the top half and bottom half of the stack firmly together?

And can I use, instead of mild steel blocks, longer magnets on top and down of the smaller magnets to form the U shape?

Thanks

Paul

dambit
06-15-2009, 01:49 AM
If you need a north- and a south pole on the U shape magnet stack in the Kromrey, do you have to switch halfway the stack the magnets from polarity and push the top half and bottom half of the stack firmly together?

And can I use, instead of mild steel blocks, longer magnets on top and down of the smaller magnets to form the U shape?

Thanks

Paul

Hi Paul,

If you turn half of the stack over and push the two together you end up with the same polarity at both ends. That's not what we want. :)

As far as using a longer magnet at the end of each stack...... I guess so. I have never tried it, but I'm not sure it would work as well. You want to make the pole turn 90 degrees to make the U shape. If you just used a longer magnet there would be a small neutral area in the center of the longer magnet and this would be inefficient. That's just my opinion so don't let that stop you experimenting. I could be wrong.

Cheers, :thumbsup:

Steve.

ren
06-15-2009, 02:34 AM
I wondered what that top block was, and whether it was a magnet...


If it is steel then one could machine it easily for a very close air gap to the stator if desired;)

Also, if your coils could move up and down the shaft you could experiment with more or less magnets for greater or weaker field strength.

Or alternately you could place a magnet there and get some laminations from a transformer and bridge the two magnets to complete the flux.

You really can see this thing growing into a beast.:cheers:

Shamus
06-15-2009, 03:46 AM
Small status report: Coils have been wound, still working on core material, coil mounts. The rotor is almost finished, just have to glue second magnet in place. Hopefully I'll have it assembled tomorrow--I can't wait to spin this thing. :thumbsup:

dambit
06-15-2009, 06:25 AM
Hi All,

Success!!! :dance:

I will post a video of it tomorrow, but I just want to let you know what the machine does.

So far I have been able to get it to charge a car battery, blow out cold air and speed up when shorted. I have not been able to get it to light a light yet, but I am hoping to soon. I put a current meter on the output while I was charging the battery and it reads nothing. But the battery is charging at 14.5V :eek: :rofl:

This machine sure is quirky. I have noticed that when the shaft is spinning slowly, it slows down when shorted. Once it gets to a certain speed (frequency) it does all the above things. Speeds up etc.

I still have not recieved my new shaft coupling so I have to hold the drive motor to reduce the vibration, this is why I will post the video tomorrow. (when I get a spare set of hands)

Cheers, :cheers:

Steve.

baroutologos
06-15-2009, 06:32 AM
Good news Dambit!

Finally some serious job here, on a real OU machine , not toys as SSG (sorry to ssg enthousiasts :P)

About the accelleration part i have experienced it myself 100%, in a different setup of course.

I waiting impatiantly more findings.


Regards,
Baroutologos

ps: just if you are curious enough for the accelaration part, sometime you have plenty of time refe to Heins Thane Perepiteia setup. I assure you he is the master of accellaration.

Paul Harmans
06-15-2009, 07:43 AM
Hi Paul,

If you turn half of the stack over and push the two together you end up with the same polarity at both ends. That's not what we want.

As far as using a longer magnet at the end of each stack...... I guess so. I have never tried it, but I'm not sure it would work as well. You want to make the pole turn 90 degrees to make the U shape. If you just used a longer magnet there would be a small neutral area in the center of the longer magnet and this would be inefficient. That's just my opinion so don't let that stop you experimenting. I could be wrong.

Cheers,

Steve.

Thanks Steve, I have to do some testing and let you know.

I wondered what that top block was, and whether it was a magnet...


If it is steel then one could machine it easily for a very close air gap to the stator if desired

Also, if your coils could move up and down the shaft you could experiment with more or less magnets for greater or weaker field strength.

Or alternately you could place a magnet there and get some laminations from a transformer and bridge the two magnets to complete the flux.

You really can see this thing growing into a beast.

Good considerations Ren!

Mark
06-15-2009, 12:29 PM
Congratulation Steve!!! :cheers:

Looking forward to the video and some more tests. EXCELLENT!

Mark

dambit
06-15-2009, 02:28 PM
Hi All,

I have done some further tests and the results are not as good as first thought. :(

The machine does speed up when it is shorted and it does blow out cool air. Which is good. However, after looking more closely at the battery I first charged, I realised that it was only showing a high voltage because it is partly sulphated. I connected a non sulphated battery to the device and it charges very slowly. Smaller batteries (1.2ah etc) charge fairly well, but not the big ones, yet.

I believe that because the machine does speed up and produce cool air, I am on the right track, however more tuning is required. I'm not sure how to do this exactly but I am hoping someone with a greater knowledge of this device will offer some suggestions. Is there a John in the house? :rofl:

So I suppose my previous post should have said "partial success".

Cheers,

Steve.

Paul Harmans
06-15-2009, 07:04 PM
I am still collecting parts, so I have no results yet Steve.

Today I did find a sheet metal workshop and I bought 12mm thick aluminum sheets for the top and ground plate, also I found 12mm diameter nylon rod for the axle, and I have the bearings.

First thing I have to do is constructing the spools, as soon as I have the correct dimensions of the spool, (length) I know the measurements for the top and ground plate. I found some cotton reels (see picture) but those are to small. I did wind one of them with 1 strand 0.4mm wire / 500 windings. But Bedini states it should be done the trifilar way, so I need more copper wire. Bedini never mention the size, which size copper wire could it be?

There are 2 new Energy From The Vacuum DVD’s.
The Tom Bearden Website - online store (http://www.cheniere.org/sales/online-store.htm)
I thought part 10 was the last in this series. Maybe there also will be a new part with more specific info about the Kromrey converter.

gmeat
06-15-2009, 07:30 PM
Hi Steve,


Nice to see that you have it up and running with partial success.Could you give all of us a little more info about your build with regards to what guage wire and length your using and also what kind of drive motor you're using.Also,It's hard for me to tell from your previous picture of the coils and rotor that you posted,But,What is it that you used to cover your coils with as it appears to be some sort of metal and if it is it might be interfering with the perfomance.Thanks for any input:thumbsup: .


-Gary

linesrg
06-15-2009, 10:28 PM
Good Evening,

I've seen the EFTV Pt.10 and JB commenting on the 'cold' air you can feel in proximity to his Kromrey converter.

Whilst I await completion of a device being built by a colleague I think we all need to remember there is a 'cool' breeze to be felt in the vicinity of any rotating machine - in itself the feeling of cool/ cold air is highly subjective.

Given the use of 60-0-60A ammeter by JB in this demo which is hardly appropriate I think some more instrumentation might not go amiss in order to prove things in a way which is less subjective.

Lots of claims being made again but nothing by way of simple proof backed up by tests which are uncontestable. The machine appeared to take a 12V drive and some 15A of current. I'd like to see a battery being charged for a known period and then a simple load test.

Anyone want to put money on a successful replication - problem is nothing susbtantive was shown.

Regards

Richard

dambit
06-16-2009, 02:16 AM
Hi Steve,


Nice to see that you have it up and running with partial success.Could you give all of us a little more info about your build with regards to what guage wire and length your using and also what kind of drive motor you're using.Also,It's hard for me to tell from your previous picture of the coils and rotor that you posted,But,What is it that you used to cover your coils with as it appears to be some sort of metal and if it is it might be interfering with the perfomance.Thanks for any input:thumbsup: .


-Gary

Hi Garry,

I am using 0.28mm wire and the coils have approximately 800 turns on them. The motor I am using is a 9-15V, 9000 rpm dc motor. That is why I have the motor drive circuit, to control its speed.

I think you may be right with reagrds to the coils covers. They are aluminium and will no doubt be interacting with the magnets in some way due to the rotation. I will take them off and just heatshrink the coils. I have propper bobbins on there now, so they shouldn't unspool.

It's a pitty cos they look way better than heatshrink.:rofl:

Cheers,

Steve.

PS. Hi Richard. You are right in saying that the feeling of cool air is always found around a rotor. I have no way of prooving to anyone, but the air is noticably cooler that what I was expecting.

Shamus
06-16-2009, 03:32 AM
Well Steve, I guess the US$64 question is, does the battery get cold after charging this way? That would be conclusive to me. :) Also, didn't John Bedini say in the video that the cool air only manifested behind the magnets? ;)

Mini-status: Just have to secure coil cores and mount coils. :thumbsup:

dambit
06-16-2009, 05:41 AM
This is driving me nuts!!:wall: :wall: :wall:

I have removed the aluminium coil covers and wrapped the coils in heat shrink. Now for some odd reason the machine slows down when shorted and is acting just like a normal generator. :confused:

I have checked my wiring and as far as I can tell, it's exactly the same as it was yesterday. I have no idea whats going on.:wall: :rofl:

Cheers,

Steve

dambit
06-16-2009, 10:55 AM
Sorry guys, no video today. Unless you want to see one of it not working.

I have spent the last 6 hours trying to find out what is wrong and so far I have zip. :confused: As far as I can tell everything is exactly the same as yesterday, only without the aluminium covers.

Obviously there is something wrong with the coils, but I have no idea. I only checked for continuity yesterday and didn't take an Ohm reading so I have nothing to compare to.:wall: At least I had it going for a little while.

I would be great if JB could post some specific details about his coils.

Cheers,

Steve.

Mark
06-16-2009, 11:41 AM
Hi Steve

Put the covers back on and see what happens.

sniky
06-16-2009, 01:08 PM
why don't you try to put a soft Iron covers, the magnetic flux should pass through right?

dllabarre
06-16-2009, 04:59 PM
Anyone have a good source for these magnets?

Thank you,
DonL

Shamus
06-16-2009, 06:05 PM
Hi Don,

I have found the 1 7/8" x 7/8" x 3/8" ceramic magnets (which is what the stack of magnets in the DVD looks like to me) at most big box home improvement centers. :)

dllabarre
06-16-2009, 07:16 PM
I have found the 1 7/8" x 7/8" x 3/8" ceramic magnets (which is what the stack of magnets in the DVD looks like to me) at most big box home improvement centers. :)

I found this website also:
www.magnet4sale.com

Ceramic Magnets C8 1 7/8"X7/8"X3/8"
Hard Ferrite Magnets
Material: Ferrite magnet or ceramic magnet, grade 8.
Magnetization: through 3/8"
Rating: 3,850 gauss
Pulling Force: 4 lbs.
Shipping Weight 0.12 lb
Price: $0.91

Is this a good price?
Seems too good to be true :D

DonL

xpskid
06-17-2009, 04:37 AM
Energy yes, just not the right type. Mine acted like a normal generator and didn't exhibit any of the Kromrey characteristics as shown by John.
My coils were wound the same, and each pole saw the same wind, meaning if you looked from the north to the south pole, both top and bottom, the wind was similar.
Based on my spreadsheet, I used (3) 50' lengths of 23 AWG on each. This yielded ~ 1.5 ohms total across the slip rings. This calculated to ~750 winds, or 250 per strand. Each coil was terminated and I used 14 gauge copper to connect to the next coil. The coil series were connected just like John's drawing, Upper left to upper right, dropping to lower right, then the lower left coil. My one deviation was I joined the two coils on each armature with the 14 gauge and not the three coil wires.

My 1/3 hp, 24v motor turns at 3100 rpm, yielding ~35 volts rectified DC.
Still thinking of my next try at the windings......:thinking:

Timm

Shamus
06-17-2009, 05:06 AM
@Don: That sounds about right. :)

@Timm: 1.5 ohms seems about right, going by John's 0.4 ohm calculation on the chalkboard. So no cold air, no cold charging, nada? Strange... :thinking:

Another mini update: All that's left now is proper coil mounts. I'm thinking that maybe I'll leave one coil loose just in case I have it turned the wrong way. :thinking: Both coils together weigh in at slightly under 4 ohms. That's three strands of #22, 100 feet each.

At any rate, I was able to turn it by hand (barely, in starting, the thing cogs like a sonofab****) and get almost two volts out of the FWBR. Now I'm starting to wonder if mine is going to work... I guess I'll find out soon enough. :thumbsup:

dambit
06-17-2009, 06:07 AM
Hi Timm,

Your build looks great. :thumbsup:

I have been unable to reproduce the results I first experienced, so I too am thinking about a next step.

The total of my coils in series is 13.4ohms (3 strands @ 0.28mm diameter, 800 turns). I'm not sure if the figures John was using in the dvd were just an example or actual numbers.

I have posted some pics of the different wave forms I get. The first is of the AC output with no load. (This is similar to the one on Bedinis website). The second is of the DC output with no load (looks a complete mess). The last is the waveform I get when either the DC or the AC is under load.

Cheers,

Steve.

baroutologos
06-17-2009, 07:19 AM
Nice scope shots Dambit.

Even though i can not yet understand the mess when it is loaded.
From my experimentation from FEG so far i have concluded the followings (there is a resemblence)

* You cannot "overload" the system. If you do you lose the accellaration effect. You must find the correct load for it so as accelaration or slight decellaration is balanced for maximum efficiency.
* In order to initiate the accellaration easier those parameters in a given setup play a major role: coil turns and rpm.

As you will sooner or later find-out that there is a threshold rpm speed for each setup that accelaration kicks in.
This highly depends on frequency (more alternating magnet poles the easier to initiate), impedance (the higher the better for single wire coils or put better the more turns the better - not much experience with parallel unfortunately -)

More wire turns also means more resistance thus output goes down. Yo can make up for less impedance by higher rpm etc

I pretty sure when you removed alluminium casing somehow you altered coil's impedances (unwound a bit?)

Nevertheless good job so far.

I am waiting your news,

Regards,
Baroutologos

dllabarre
06-17-2009, 01:54 PM
I think I read where it's better to have shorter coils with 4-6 layers as opposed to a longer coil with only 2 layers. Is this correct?

At what point does too many layers of wire cause a problem?

DonL
(still waiting for material to arrive)

xpskid
06-17-2009, 02:28 PM
Hi Timm,

Your build looks great. :thumbsup:

I have been unable to reproduce the results I first experienced, so I too am thinking about a next step.

The total of my coils in series is 13.4ohms (3 strands @ 0.28mm diameter, 800 turns). I'm not sure if the figures John was using in the dvd were just an example or actual numbers.

I have posted some pics of the different wave forms I get. The first is of the AC output with no load. (This is similar to the one on Bedinis website). The second is of the DC output with no load (looks a complete mess). The last is the waveform I get when either the DC or the AC is under load.

Cheers,

Steve.

Thanks Steve ! :cheers:

When you state 3 strands @ 0.28mm diameter, 800 turns, are you saying you wrapped all three strands 800 turns ? or 266 turns using 3 strands ?

800 turns of each strand creates a pretty good spool volume. I was trying to keep my windings inside the diameter of the armature end. My armatures are 1" cast iron rod, ~4.5" in length. I turned down the spool area on each side of the shaft to ~0.5" diameter, 1.5" long. This limits my spool volume unless I wind outside the 1" diameter, which then means I have to reinforce the ends with something larger in diameter so I don't throw the windings off at 3000 rpm. I could turn the inner diameter down to 3/8" or even 1/4" to gain more volume. :thinking:

To simplify things, I'm thinking I may go to a single strand to experiment with.
According to the video, this can still demonstrate the energy we are looking for, just not as efficient as the trifilar/low impedence build that John mentions.

Timm

sniky
06-17-2009, 03:08 PM
@timm I want to ask you how did you asembled those 4 row magnets
N-S
S-N
first paralel row
and the second paralel row? the same ?

dambit
06-17-2009, 04:08 PM
Hi Timm,

All three strands are 800 turns. Wound at the same time. My bobbins are solid mild steel. 12mm diameter core with 25mm diameter flanges. I just filled them up and that equated to approx 800 turns. (actual number is 780 turns, close enough)

@Baroutologos - I think your right about the frequency issue. Also, I didn't change my coil length in any way when I removed the covers. I have noticed that with the covers removed the drive motor draws 2.5 amps, when opperating at the same speed with the covers on, it drew 5.5 amps. The aluminium was definitely creating a drag on the drive motor, and this is why I wanted to remove it. I just didn't expect the motors output performance to change as a result.:confused:

I will experiment with rotor speeds as much as I can, but until I get my flexible shaft coupling there is just too much vibration over 50% drive motor speed (about 4,500 rpm). It gets loud. :rofl:

Cheers,

Steve

Paul Harmans
06-17-2009, 08:31 PM
If we ask John Bedini personally for some specifications, I think we never get an answer (however), but maybe we can try to ask Tom Bearden? He is the one who is selling the EFTV DVD’s.

The text on DVD 10 says:

‘In this DVD John Bedini, painstakingly traces the “G-field generator's” pedigree and history all the way back to the late Professor Raymond Kromrey, and John then presents the theory, the circuit diagram, what to do, and what not to do, to build one that works.’

But we are missing some details.

I like do to it myself, but my English is not as good as yours, so maybe one of you (English speaking persons) on this topic will take this opportunity?

I think this is the correct e-mail address:
webmaster@cheniere.org

I found it here:
Table of Contents (http://www.cheniere.org/toc.html)

xpskid
06-17-2009, 09:59 PM
@timm I want to ask you how did you asembled those 4 row magnets
N-S
S-N
first paralel row
and the second paralel row? the same ?

Hi Sniky,

Not quite sure I understand your question, but let me try ..
Look at image 887 above.
The intent is to create "U" or Horseshoe magnets on either side of the iron armature. The black stacks are (12) 1"x2"x1/2" ceramic magnets stacked using thier own magnetic attraction, thus n-s-n-s-n-s... etc. They're wrapped with electical tape simply to hold them in better alignment. The pole pieces on either end are cast iron, milled to 1" square and faced with an arc to match the armature swing. So the face of one pole piece is N, and the other is S. The stacks across from one another are opposite, so one stack has N on top and directly across , the stack has S on top. When the armature is magnetically locked in between, the magnetic flux is closed and all contained in the loop. Starting in upper left, the N pole flows to the S pole through the armature, and the same on the bottom. The contained loop through the armature is what is important. It can't go through the shaft which is why John stresses a non-magnetic shaft. The energy in the coils is captured when you break the lock and collapse the field through the coil.
The four pole set-up isn't ideal because armature see's N-N-S-S, the six pole would be better.

Regards,

Timm

xpskid
06-18-2009, 02:34 AM
I'll start a log book, but thought I'd share some initial results before I tear this down for mods. (This set-up performed like a normal generator and did not exhibit the characteristics of the Kromrey shown in John's DVD10 :confused: )

Armatures / pole pieces are cast iron
Magnets are 1"x2"x1/2" ceramic
Motor is 24V 1/3hp
Coils 50' trifilar, 23 AWG, joined at each end
Each armature is wound the same on both sides. If you look down the armature, the near coil is wound the same and the far coil.
The bottom coil is flipped, but both coils on the bottom are again the same.
My way of thinking of this is when looking down the armature, from the north pole to the south pole, the wind is the same both top and bottom.
Can this vary the results if I switch the wind direction ? :thinking:

I'm open to ideas... I would like to test as much as I can before I tear the windings out and rewind.

Resistance = 1.5 ohms (between the slip rings) and 5.7 mH
Reistance w/brushes = 4.8 ohms

Draw unloaded = 3.9 A
Draw direct short = 4.9 A

1500 rpm 16.5V DC, 21.3 V AC
3000 rpm 34.2 V DC, 40.6 V AC

Regards, :cheers:

Timm

dllabarre
06-18-2009, 03:32 AM
Here are some pictures I put together showing the magnetic pole relationships and the wiring as I understand it.

Please let me know if this is incorrect and I'll change it.

The coils can change there polarity as they rotate around. When they pass the 2nd stack of magnets in my picture, those magnets have the opposite polarity on top and bottom. Therefore each coil with have its polarity automatically reversed.


DonL


http://www.u2ecom.com/images/motors/KromreyConverterPicByDLL.jpg

http://www.u2ecom.com/images/motors/KromreyConverterPicByDLL2.jpg

Michelinho
06-18-2009, 03:54 AM
@dllabarre,

One thing comes to mind that could make this unit work differently. Are your slip rings one continuous contact? What if they contain breaks timed the with passing of the magnetic field as to make the magnetic field collapse. If you are using continuous slip rings, you are producing AC like a normal alternator and you will not get back spikes. It would be something kept out of a Patent and not invalidate the concept.

Take care,

Michel

dllabarre
06-18-2009, 04:07 AM
@dllabarre,
One thing comes to mind that could make this unit work differently. Are your slip rings one continuous contact? What if they contain breaks timed the with passing of the magnetic field as to make the magnetic field collapse. If you are using continuous slip rings, you are producing AC like a normal alternator and you will not get back spikes. It would be something kept out of a Patent and not invalidate the concept.
Take care,
Michel


I'm already building mine with breaks in each slip ring, equally spaced.
Everything I read from Tesla, Bearden, Kromney and Bedini; they all talk about cutting off power to the coil to callapse the magnetic field.
This will give me the spikes like the SSG does (I believe).

Thank you for bringing this up,
DonL

baroutologos
06-18-2009, 07:17 AM
@Baroutologos - I think your right about the frequency issue.

Its not my oppinion. Its a fact. For more info see my thread on FEG machine.

Coupling issue
..................................................

I was thinking about the coupling of a PMDC motor and my FEG replica. You juct confirm that is difficult if not almost impossible for the average person to go for direct coupling (shaft to shaft) and have no vibration, noise etc. (even tho machining will be)

Perhaps i should go with a belt driven system i suppose... What's your oppinion?

Regards,
Baroutologos

dambit
06-18-2009, 07:34 AM
I was thinking about the coupling of a PMDC motor and my FEG replica. You juct confirm that is difficult if not almost impossible for the average person to go for direct coupling (shaft to shaft) and have no vibration, noise etc. (even tho machining will be)

Perhaps i should go with a belt driven system i suppose... What's your oppinion?

Regards,
Baroutologos

My rigid coupling is only a temp solution until my flexible coupling arrives. It's the same type of coupling that Bedini uses on his converter. This will allow up to 3mm of misalignment between the shaft and the motor, and will get rid of all vibrations apart from the cogging of the rotor.

I think a belt drive will work just fine if you want to go that way.

Cheers,

Steve.

sniky
06-18-2009, 07:52 AM
Hi Sniky,

Not quite sure I understand your question, but let me try ..
Look at image 887 above.
The intent is to create "U" or Horseshoe magnets on either side of the iron armature. The black stacks are (12) 1"x2"x1/2" ceramic magnets stacked using thier own magnetic attraction, thus n-s-n-s-n-s... etc. They're wrapped with electical tape simply to hold them in better alignment. The pole pieces on either end are cast iron, milled to 1" square and faced with an arc to match the armature swing. So the face of one pole piece is N, and the other is S. The stacks across from one another are opposite, so one stack has N on top and directly across , the stack has S on top. When the armature is magnetically locked in between, the magnetic flux is closed and all contained in the loop. Starting in upper left, the N pole flows to the S pole through the armature, and the same on the bottom. The contained loop through the armature is what is important. It can't go through the shaft which is why John stresses a non-magnetic shaft. The energy in the coils is captured when you break the lock and collapse the field through the coil.
The four pole set-up isn't ideal because armature see's N-N-S-S, the six pole would be better.


Regards,

Timm

Thanks, Timm I was asking about the last part N-N-S-S I thought about this and the six pole. I would like to build this but I don't have enough magnets for 6 poles(and I thought at 4 poles like in the video)

baroutologos
06-18-2009, 01:00 PM
Hmm... nice idea the elastic coupling of 3mm misalignment.
Can you provide any specs, vendors etc on it?

Regards,
Baroutologos

xpskid
06-18-2009, 01:07 PM
Steve,

What material did you use for you shaft.
Mine should be 316L SS (what I ordered), however I'll check for magnetism tonight. I'll swap it out for a copper shaft to test before rewinding.
We need an easy way to exchange wind directions...:thinking:

Timm

dllabarre
06-18-2009, 03:22 PM
I'm cutting 8 grooves in each slip ring to produce 8 on/off cycles per rotation.

Everything I read from Tesla, Bearden, Gray and Bedini; they all talk about cutting off power to the coil to collapse the magnetic field which will produce the spikes.

If I understand correctly the purpose of parallel wound coils, that they hold a magnetic charge after power is turned off, then I will need extra on/off cycles to take advantage of this. The extra ON will dump this stored energy from the coils.

DonL

dambit
06-18-2009, 03:26 PM
Hi Baroutologos,

I've ordered my coupling from an Australian online vendor called smallparts.com.au. Not sure about other countries.

I've attached a pic of the coupling.

Hi Timm,

My shaft is made from aluminium. I would avoid using steel as the shaft material. Better to use brass or aluminium. If you can get plastic rod that can be lathed, use it. You won't have to insulate the sliprings then.

Cheers,

Steve.

Mark
06-18-2009, 03:57 PM
Hey guys I just found a message on another forumn from John Bedini that you will find helpful

In bedini_monopole2@yahoogroups.com, "John" <john_bedini@...> wrote:
>
> Tim,
> I think you need to use #18 wire about 130 turns. Next, Non-Magnetic shaft
only .... This machine is a magnetic locking gate flux transformer. It works by
charging the pole pieces then the magnetic lock breaks and the energy is
released.
>
> If you use a shaft that is magnetic it will act like a normal generator. Also
use carbon copper brushes to lower the impedance.
> John Bedini

Hope this helps, Mark :thumbsup:

dambit
06-18-2009, 04:17 PM
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the info.:thumbsup:

130 turns? If thats the case then my 800 turns is way to many.:eek: :rofl:

My brushes are carbon anyway. I stole them from a spare DC motor I had.

Cheers,

Steve.

kent_elyue
06-18-2009, 04:29 PM
I'm cutting 8 grooves in each slip ring to produce 8 on/off cycles per rotation.

Everything I read from Tesla, Bearden, Gray and Bedini; they all talk about cutting off power to the coil to collapse the magnetic field which will produce the spikes.

If I understand correctly the purpose of parallel wound coils, that they hold a magnetic charge after power is turned off, then I will need extra on/off cycles to take advantage of this. The extra ON will dump this stored energy from the coils.

DonL

FWIW, here is a screen shot of Bedini's model taken right from the DVD. It's a close-up of the slip-rings. You may want to adjust the gamma level for clarity.

dambit
06-18-2009, 04:35 PM
They look solid to me.

Shamus
06-18-2009, 05:06 PM
I'd say the fact that he never mentioned such a thing would also imply that this is not the problem. I think if it was important to have discontinuous slip rings, he would have mentioned it. :)

I finally finished building my G-field and did a preliminary spin yesterday. I was turning it with an electric hand drill and it's tough to do experiments with only one hand. :) I did have a FWBR hooked up and a voltmeter and for the speed it was going it seemed to put out over 20V at times, but when I tried looking at the 200V scale it didn't show much of anything (I think my meter is not working correctly).

At any rate, I tried shorting and the meter did show some impressive voltage and sparks at the moment of shorting, and there was difference in the speed of the drill. I *think* it speed up, but I'm not 100% sure about that. Also, I *think* I felt some coldness coming from the magnets, but again, not 100% sure. I need to either figure out how to mount the drill so I can play with this thing hands-free or find another motor.

Will post more details as they come. :thumbsup:

xpskid
06-18-2009, 06:26 PM
I must agree with Shamus in that I truely believe John said everything accurately and detailed the important parts. If you want to reproduce the device he showed, then don't deviate and try to hard to read things between the lines.
I crossed posted my results to the Bedini group and John :notworthy: took the time to respond (See Mark's note above).
I've tried to have an impedence discussion on the Bedini group but didn't get much feedback. I'm not an EE guy, I'm an analytical chemist. From what I gather, impedence is simply resistance with an imaginary component, or resistance over time and frequency. Depending on the spikes or the frequency, the resistance can vary. To me this suggests inductance is a component since we are working with coils.
I interpret Johns comments to mean "Keep the resistance low stupid".
In the DVD he stated 0.4 ohms per coil (~1.6 ohms for the system) so that is what I was shooting for.
Remember that the trifilar approach was part of his improvments for efficiency. The device can be built with a single wind. So I believe his comment above is saying... start simply, single wind, 18 AWG, 130 turns and make sure your resistance through the brushes don't defeat the device.
The choice of shaft materials is very important.

If it helps anyone, I've attached my little resistance spreadsheet which I used in an attempt to calculate the coil resistance based on my spool volume and wire choice.

Regards, :cheers:

Timm

dllabarre
06-18-2009, 07:26 PM
If it helps anyone, I've attached my little resistance spreadsheet which I used in an attempt to calculate the coil resistance based on my spool volume and wire choice.

Regards, :cheers:

Timm

:wall:
Where did you attach your spreadsheet?
I don't see it on your post here.

DonL

dambit
06-19-2009, 12:57 AM
Hi Timm,

You should ask Bedini for a detailed design like the SG has. Even if he doesn't give one, someone else who has built the thing might.

Also I've tried to join that group a million times and keep getting auto rejected. Do they even bother to check the applications? I don't get why they restrict entry, seems to go against the idea of getting alternative tech out there.:confused:

Cheers,

Steve

dllabarre
06-19-2009, 02:06 AM
Also I've tried to join that group a million times and keep getting auto rejected. Cheers,
Steve

I just tried to join today also and got rejected. :mad:
I even pleaded my case.
Explained that I've built an SSG and use it often to recharge batteries for the kids toys.
Now I'm looking for something BIGGER and BETTER.
I hope this Kromrey converter is the answer. :rolleyes:

Only time will tell....

DonL

xpskid
06-19-2009, 02:19 AM
Hi Timm,

You should ask Bedini for a detailed design like the SG has. Even if he doesn't give one, someone else who has built the thing might.

Also I've tried to join that group a million times and keep getting auto rejected. Do they even bother to check the applications? I don't get why they restrict entry, seems to go against the idea of getting alternative tech out there.:confused:

Cheers,

Steve

Steve,

Don't hold it against the bedinin group... You must start with the monopole_3 group, build and document an SSG to be allowed into the other groups. Nothing personal... but if you've been involved in these groups for any length of time, you understand that there are those who build and learn and there are those who blog and argue who never build anything.... They are just trying to separate the two. As a member I agreed not to cross post. Doesn't mean I can't share my results with this group, I just won't transfer direct quotes, but I don't mind working together towards a goal. Notice I mentioned I would move towards a single wind before Marks quote. I also mentioned I'd share my build and results... so nothing hidden on my part, just holding my integrety on both.

Before I rewind, I want to try new shafts... they should arrive tomorrow, both copper and aluminum. I priced new brushes but they aren't cheap. I couldn't find graphite/copper, but graphite/silver were $50 per. Ouch :suprise: !

I tried to attach my spreadsheet but apparently it didn't go. I'll try again.

Regards,

Timm

xpskid
06-19-2009, 02:22 AM
Ok... can anyone give me advice on how to attach a spreadsheet ?

Timm

xpskid
06-19-2009, 02:27 AM
Appears I can only attach an image, not a file ???

theremart
06-19-2009, 02:27 AM
Hi Timm,

You should ask Bedini for a detailed design like the SG has. Even if he doesn't give one, someone else who has built the thing might.

Also I've tried to join that group a million times and keep getting auto rejected. Do they even bother to check the applications? I don't get why they restrict entry, seems to go against the idea of getting alternative tech out there.:confused:

Cheers,

Steve

The normal path is you build an standard SSG, and then move up the ranks to level 2 of the groups. I have been in the advanced group for a time but I found that very few posts are read there, it was a great place to collect data, but not a place to get help. This forum is the best place to get help in a timely manner, with very respectful people.

I am very disappointed that Bedini having sold his working motors to MIT will not do the same to per say Sterling, or others that have a genuine desire to experiment with the device and share the results. I am waiting till someone has a working design then I may invest in exploring it further myself.

What would be cool is if one could get the machined parts, that have been tested to work and then build it.

What is lacking even among the kits that Rick puts out is good directions for people to follow, so many people come here to learn how to put them together.

xpskid
06-19-2009, 02:52 AM
The normal path is you build an standard SSG, and then move up the ranks to level 2 of the groups. I have been in the advanced group for a time but I found that very few posts are read there, it was a great place to collect data, but not a place to get help. This forum is the best place to get help in a timely manner, with very respectful people.

I am very disappointed that Bedini having sold his working motors to MIT will not do the same to per say Sterling, or others that have a genuine desire to experiment with the device and share the results. I am waiting till someone has a working design then I may invest in exploring it further myself.

What would be cool is if one could get the machined parts, that have been tested to work and then build it.

What is lacking even among the kits that Rick puts out is good directions for people to follow, so many people come here to learn how to put them together.

I'm with you Theremart.... let's figure this out and present detailed designs !
John has spent 30+ years in this field and got nothing but harrassment. Let's try to understand and run with the advise he had given and not resent the fact that he hasn't can't spoon feed us all the answers. He did give us EFV10, true ? He did respond to my results at 1:30 AM ? So lets appreciate that and move forward !!!

I'm sharing everything !! and so is Steve !!! so let's keep going...

Timm :cheers:
I like this little beer guy...

xpskid
06-19-2009, 03:04 AM
Hi Timm,

You should ask Bedini for a detailed design like the SG has. Even if he doesn't give one, someone else who has built the thing might.

Also I've tried to join that group a million times and keep getting auto rejected. Do they even bother to check the applications? I don't get why they restrict entry, seems to go against the idea of getting alternative tech out there.:confused:

Cheers,

Steve

Steve,

I believe the detailed SSG designs came from Rick, not John.
I'll post our best results to the Bedini group and see what happens. Like yesterday, we may get some feedback from John. His time is pretty valuable, I'll humbly take what he gives....:thumbsup:

Timm

dllabarre
06-19-2009, 04:04 AM
Appears I can only attach an image, not a file ???

Can you place the file on a webpage, give us the URL so we can down load it?

If not, maybe you can private message it to me and I'll place it on the web for down loading.

Just an idea....


I'm with you Theremart.... let's figure this out and present detailed designs ! He did give us EFV10, true ? He did respond to my results at 1:30 AM ? So lets appreciate that and move forward !!!
I'm sharing everything !! and so is Steve !!! so let's keep going...
Timm


I'm with you guys. :cheers:
Let's get this built and working. I'm documenting everything I can along the way including copies of invoices for material and parts I've purchased.

By the way, how long did it take for you to receive your video? It's been over a week since I ordered it.

DonL

Shamus
06-19-2009, 04:43 AM
The whole thing with sliprings and the like is why I decided to go with the stationary coil version. ;)

At any rate, I did a little more testing, this time with a battery. I didn't run this test very long because I really hate being so near to the thing with those magnets spinning at high RPM. Let's just say I don't fully trust the adhesive and will likely build a shield before any serious testing. :p

So the voltage on the battery went up, and at a certain point the drill sped up and the voltage started climbing faster. I also tried shorting the machine out again but couldn't tell if it was loading the machine down or not. There didn't seem to be any cool air this time, and the battery definitely did not cool down any. But this could be due to the motor not spinning fast enough and not enough time charging (I think I spent a total of around 10 minutes on charging).

There will be more to come. :) Does anyone have any ideas on sourcing a cheap (read: junkyard/salvage) DC motor? :thinking:

dambit
06-19-2009, 04:58 AM
Hi Timm,

Just import your exel spreadsheet into a word document or create a PDF and that should be fine.:thumbsup:

I hope nobody thinks I was putting crap on the monopole groups. I just don't see why when I have already built a solid state charger that can efficiently charge large batteries, I should have to rebuild and test a tiny SSG. Seems pointless. At the very least they should allow the posts to be read-only. But that's just my opinion and I will leave it at that. :)

I'm going to unwind my old spare set of coils and rewind them with a single strand and keep the resistance down to 3 ohms or below. The 0.4 ohms mentioned in the DVD was when the trifilar setup was in place.

Sore fingeres here I come.:rofl:

Cheers,

Steve

dllabarre
06-19-2009, 05:15 AM
Hi Timm,
Just import your exel spreadsheet into a word document or create a PDF and that should be fine.:thumbsup:
Steve

The disadvantage of that is we lose the ability of it's use for our own calculations. It will only show us Timm's last calculation. :thinking:

DonL

dambit
06-19-2009, 05:50 AM
You could try renaming the file type. If that doesn't work we'll just have to PM our email addresses.

I've attached a renamed exel file as a test. Rename it to *.xls to open it in exel.

Cheers,

Steve

(Just tried it and the file gets corrupted.):confused:

Timm,

If you open a new word document and then insert the excel spreadsheet as an embedded object, we should be able to use the spreadsheet with the formulae. If the file size is kept super small.

Paul Harmans
06-19-2009, 07:41 AM
Because there was no response on my request to ask Tom Bearden for some details, I did it myself, part of my question was:

‘I and some others are trying to build the Kromrey converter John Bedini is demonstrating on EFTV 10, but we are still missing some important details, such as the number of the windings on the coils, the thickness of the copper wire, the rpm from the motor and some more. Do you think it is possible John Bedini put some of these details on his website for all those people building the Kromrey? Or is there maybe a future DVD with more on the Kromrey?’

The First respons was from Tony Craddock, Tom Bearden’s webmaster. His answer was very short, but hopeful:

‘Stay tuned.

Regards

Tony Craddock
Webmaster’

Within a few hours John Bedini himself was answering! This is his answer and now I know why his coils look so small!

‘Paul,

I don't know how big of machine your going to build, so I say nothing in the DVD.
The one I was demonstrating was using a DC motor at 2200 rpm's
the wire size was number 18 at 130 turns on each pole.

Hope this helps.

John’

My response to John:

Dear John,

Thank you for your quick response and details!

The machine I want to build is from the same size you are demonstrating on the DVD. My motor is a 12V DC 3000 rpm’s.

Are your coils trifilar winded, or just one strand 130 turns?

Some here are building a Kromrey with six stacks of magnets; yours have four, what is your opinion about the six poles?

Regards,

Paul

baroutologos
06-19-2009, 08:50 AM
Hm... 130 turns of 18 awg? At 2200 rpm?

According my view, never gonna make it.
But, who am i to question the master :P

Regards,
Baroutologos

ps: I am 100% sure that Gambit's many turn will be the one most like working than those that will go of little turns.

baroutologos
06-19-2009, 09:03 AM
I couldn't modify the previous one so i make next post.

In my humble oppinion, less turns thicker wire goes for output, since less ohmic resistance is involved.
But if you cannot experience at first hand the accelaration etc effects, output will be of no value since it will behave as a normal generator.


By the way, i would go with more turns myself, finer wire and after achiving the desired effects find the golden mean for max output by using thicker wire parallel wound etc


But, its just me.

regards,
Baroutologos

dambit
06-19-2009, 10:56 AM
Hi Paul,

Thanks for doing that.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I did see your post and intended to reply, but I honestly didn't think you would send a message so soon. :o Oh well.

Did he happen to mention his core diameter? Not sure if it matters too much but thought I would ask anyway. I'm getting the new coils wound on monday. My coil guy will get a shock, these will be tiny compared to jobs he has done for me in the past.:rofl:

Cheers,

Steve.

Paul Harmans
06-19-2009, 11:08 AM
In my humble oppinion, less turns thicker wire goes for output, since less ohmic resistance is involved.
But if you cannot experience at first hand the accelaration etc effects, output will be of no value since it will behave as a normal generator.


By the way, i would go with more turns myself, finer wire and after achiving the desired effects find the golden mean for max output by using thicker wire parallel wound etc


But, its just me.

regards,
Baroutologos

I did build an SSG (see picture) and what I most learned in the monopole_3 group by Rick Friedrich is: Build your first motor exact the way Bedini says, and if that one is working, start fine tuning and try some modifications.

But, its just me :)

Did he happen to mention his core diameter? Not sure if it matters too much but thought I would ask anyway. I'm getting the new coils wound on monday. My coil guy will get a shock, these will be tiny compared to jobs he has done for me in the past.

Cheers,

Steve.

Hi Steve,

Your question is underway, as soon as I have John’s answer I let you know. I hope he will answer all those mails, because it is a busy man.

Paul

xpskid
06-19-2009, 11:57 AM
I'm trying to attach this again... if the doesn't work I can email it to someone or if someone has a webpage, I'll post it there.

Ahh... the uploader says invalid file... I can't send it in a personal message either... dang :wall:

Timm

baroutologos
06-19-2009, 01:33 PM
@ Paul

Hmmm.... interesting point. I have been wandering in the SSG realm for some time. I have blindly replicated mr Bedini's SSG (see my photos on this thread) and blindly followed instructions (c20 cycles, extensive conditioning, dc-to-dc converters etc)

I have never, ever experience any OU neither close to it. I suppose by 99,8% :P that is your case also.

Regards,
Baroutologos

ps: an old saying goes, MIND and PARACHUTE must be opened!

dambit
06-19-2009, 02:29 PM
Hi Baroutologos,

With the SG chargers, they themselves are not OU and as far as I know Bedini never said they were. The extra energy is found in the batteries once they are conditioned. IMO a battery load test is the only way to see the results.

An example is this; I went and purchased a new 1.2 Ah 12V SLA battery (it's tiny). After only a couple of cycles it could power a 50W halogen for 45min. To me that is an awesome result. :eek: :)

@ Paul,

Thanks again for asking Bedini about the finer details. Once we have some working examples we should be able to work out a ratio between coil size and magnet size/strength. Scale it up!! :D :rofl:

Your SSG looks great:thumbsup:

Cheers,

Steve

Paul Harmans
06-19-2009, 06:43 PM
Steve is right about the OU of the SSG Baroutologos, but I was just as you, I thought it was an OU machine and I was a bit disappointed by the results. Later I remember John Bedini (and Rick Friedrich as well) was saying (somewhere ?) that you have to find the OU in the batteries. This Kromrey converter is different; I can’t wait for the results.

Paul Harmans
06-19-2009, 07:00 PM
Thanks again for asking Bedini about the finer details. Once we have some working examples we should be able to work out a ratio between coil size and magnet size/strength. Scale it up!!

You're welcome Steve, I didn’t expect an answer from the master himself, but that feeling was wrong. I think a lot of people want to know more about the Kromrey and sooner or later John Bedini or Tom Bearden will come with a lot more info.

kent_elyue
06-19-2009, 08:25 PM
Please forgive my humble ignorance, but the Kromrey Converter is NOT a standard Generator. John Bedini has made that point very clear. He has also made it very clear (to those that will listen) that in order to understand negative energy systems we FIRST need to stop thinking in terms of positive energy. While a standard generator does work better with finer wire and more windings, a negative energy generator will probably work EXACTLY OPPOSITE.

Think about it for a minute. In the SSG system, we are electrically stimulating the coils, so a longer winding produces more electromagnetic flux. In the Kromrey we are looking to capture an existing magnetic flux field. The lower the impedance, the more negative energy that will be allowed to flow INTO the windings.

Here's another point to consider. Who in their right mind (using our standard positive-energy systems) would connect a 1.2 ohm load across a battery in order to try to charge the battery. But in order to use the negative energy from the Kromrey device this is EXACTLY what we need to do.

What we need to do is understand the process of what is really occurring in negative energy systems. Tom Bearden's excellent document entitled "Bedini's method for forming negative resistors in batteries" contains significant insight into the process of what is occurring in a negative-energy system. The negative energy appears in the battery - NOT in the circuit. The supporting circuit merely causes the conditions necessary for the effect to appear in the battery. The circuit itself is not where the magic appears. (Please forgive my blundersome attempt to paraphrase that which Tom Bearden said so much more eloquently.)

Tom's article is an important read for anyone serious about "free energy" devices. It is a shame that the document has been so overlooked. It's so clear, and simple enough that you don't need to be an engineer to understand it. In fact, IMHO, you are further ahead if you are not overly-educated. Why do you think John has said he'd rather work with Children? It's because they don't approach the work with preconceived [read: erroneous] notions about how it should work and then try to out-think him. They simple do exactly what he says.

I"ve attached Tom's document for anyone wishing to read it. My apologies if I have offended anyone. [Stepping down off the soapbox now]

linesrg
06-19-2009, 09:53 PM
Kent,

Tom Bearden's view of so called negative energy may indeed be correct, his criticism of conventional thinking may also be valid.

The problem is that we have no significant proof. I have no intention of naming names or pointing figures but as yet nobody has come out in public and claimed to have an SG device based system that is OU.

Yes it is possible in the short term to see a situation where a battery can seem to give up more energy than it took to charge it but how accurately are we measuring the energy in. If you use a load resistor then are you allowing for the fact its resistance will vary as it heats up etc etc.

I have built several SG based devices and know of others who have as well and we're still waiting. In fact isn't this everybody's experience?

Can we all be doing something wrong?

Note I have built these devices by the book so I am a builder and I have followed instructions so these are not the cautionary or even cynical words of an armchair critic.

Regards

Richard

xpskid
06-20-2009, 02:18 AM
The one I was demonstrating was using a DC motor at 2200 rpm's
the wire size was number 18 at 130 turns on each pole.

Hope this helps.

John’[/I]



Paul,

Thanks for using other channels to communicate !! :cheers:

Just another comment to the group, if you've read the Bedini/Kromrey tests, they talk about the energy not being linear with the rpm.... This shows a broad range of speed and rules out the idea of having to hit on a specific frequency.

Timm

xpskid
06-20-2009, 02:21 AM
Don should be posting my spreadsheet when he has time. Thanks Don ! :thumbsup:

I just want to say that it's nothing special. I tinkered with it to help predict how much wire would fit on my spool based on the wire and spool size and then estimate the resistance for a single wind vs a trifilar wind.

Hope somebody finds it useful.

Timm

dambit
06-20-2009, 02:42 AM
I don't think we are here to prove to the world that this stuff works, most of us are here to prove it to ourselves. I for one have done this and as far as I'm concerned that's all I need. No matter what results we get there will always be someone who doesn't think it's enough and will demand more "proof".

Please don't take this as an insult, but the SSG is so simple to build and get working and if you do this and are not seeing results........ your doing something wrong. It took me about two weeks to see results from conditioning, but the results were there. In the batteries, in the form of extra amp hours.

Anyway, I'm off to get my new coils wound.

Cheers,:cheers:

Steve

dllabarre
06-20-2009, 03:07 AM
Don should be posting my spreadsheet when he has time. Thanks Don ! :thumbsup:
I just want to say that it's nothing special. I tinkered with it to help predict how much wire would fit on my spool based on the wire and spool size and then estimate the resistance for a single wind vs a trifilar wind.
Hope somebody finds it useful.
Timm

Here is the URL to download Timm's spreadsheet.

http://www.u2ecom.com/Bedini-Kromrey/Resistance.xls

I tried it and I was able to download it and save it on my computer.

Looks good! Thanks Timm :notworthy:

DonL
:cheers:

dllabarre
06-20-2009, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Paul Harmans
The one I was demonstrating was using a DC motor at 2200 rpm's
the wire size was number 18 at 130 turns on each pole.
Hope this helps.
John’


Now we know the wire size and number of turns John used.
Thank you for getting this question answered. :notworthy:


What size (diameter) core is everyone using?
After seeing the video (it finally came in the mail today) I'm thinking my 3/4" core is too big. :thinking:

Thanks,
DonL

xpskid
06-20-2009, 03:49 AM
What size (diameter) core is everyone using?
After seeing the video (it finally came in the mail today) I'm thinking my 3/4" core is too big. :thinking:

Thanks,
DonL


Thanks Don for posting it :thumbsup:

After several beers golfing today and then several beers at the ballgame, I managed to get out to the barn.
I swapped my SS 316L shaft out for an aluminum shaft and repeated my earlier tests.

My output voltage as measured with my meter dropped from 34.2 to 24.4 DC
AC dropped from 40.6 to 30.1

The interesting part was my first test showed a 1A jump in current draw when shorted. With the aluminum shaft it only dropped 0.34 A
So I bypassed the carbon brushes (which add resistance) and the drop was only 0.24 A :thumbsup:

I then took my SS shaft and tested it with neo's. A small one on one end, and tried to pick the other up with the other end. Couldn't, but I could magnetically drag it around, suggesting the SS did conduct some magnetic flux.

So two points:
Avoid SS even if it's 316
The extra resistance of even the brushes did affect the performance.

Timm

xpskid
06-20-2009, 03:58 AM
What size (diameter) core is everyone using?

Thanks,
DonL

Don,

For comparison, my armature is 4.5" long x 1" dia, made from cast iron.
I left 1/8" on the ends and turned down to 1/2" dia over a length of ~1.75" on each side. I taped the core with electrical tape and added 1" nylon washers to protect each end of the windings. A friend is suppose to be turning another set for me, but I don't think he's done much on it lately.
This was able to accomodate ~250 turns of trifilar #23 and yielded resistance equivalent to the video.

Timm

dllabarre
06-20-2009, 04:35 AM
Don,
For comparison, my armature is 4.5" long x 1" dia, made from cast iron.

This was able to accomodate ~250 turns of trifilar #23 and yielded resistance equivalent to the video.
Timm

hmmm.... :thinking:

My cores are made of steel.
Is cast iron a lot better then steel for cores or just a little better?
I'm trying to decide if I should go with cast iron instead of steel.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

DonL

wrtner
06-20-2009, 08:27 AM
hmmm.... :thinking:

My cores are made of steel.

DonL
Many people favour swedish soft iron (to be found in some welding rods).

It may be to do with the material's ability to take on magnetism and then
throw it off when the current is cut.
Paul.

baroutologos
06-20-2009, 08:03 PM
Hi at all,

I have been re-reading an old paper from Tom Bearden regarding John Bedini's Kromrey converter setup and experimental results. http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/Mueller.pdf

Ok, i can understand the logic of the results.
That i cannot understand is the wattage results given at document's page 9 (leaflet's page 6) in Table K-2.

He is stating that converter loaded with a battery outputs some 21 watts that corrects the figure (using a corrector factor) to 116 watts.
But, by using an 13,8 ohm resistor he gives 185,19 watts out, while by utilizing an 0,63 Ohm resistor he calculates 534,92 watts out.

How is that? He is not saying any correction factor to the ohmic resistances (since there is not). So? How concludes those figures?

If shorted the converter outputs some 1 amp, how by using those resistors makes out such wattage??

Does anyone knows this or just the whole thing is a typo? (put it mildly)

Regards,
Baroutologos

linesrg
06-20-2009, 09:44 PM
I don't think we are here to prove to the world that this stuff works, most of us are here to prove it to ourselves. I for one have done this and as far as I'm concerned that's all I need. No matter what results we get there will always be someone who doesn't think it's enough and will demand more "proof".

Please don't take this as an insult, but the SSG is so simple to build and get working and if you do this and are not seeing results........ your doing something wrong. It took me about two weeks to see results from conditioning, but the results were there. In the batteries, in the form of extra amp hours.

Anyway, I'm off to get my new coils wound.

Cheers,:cheers:

Steve

Dambit,

The willingness of some people to deliberately misunderstand this stuff is nothing short of staggering.

I'm not questioning that pulse charging, Bedini or otherwise, will increase an old or even new lead acid batteries capacity. All this demonstrates is that conventional chargers just aren't that efficient.

Bedini charging will simply make say a 20Ahr battery actually deliver 20AHr, that is not free energy that is simply very efficient charging and slightly enthusiastic battery capacity reporting by the manufacturer.

Free energy or OU is where you put 1W of energy in to the front end of an SG or Kromrey and you get 1.0000001W out of the battery on the charging end, it really is that simple.

Are you telling me that you have a Bedini device where you can put 1W into the front end and get more than this out? If you can't you are nowhere near OU or even breaking even.

I can also advise all of you looking at the Kromrey that you likely won't get it to work as shown as it is likely there is something you've not been told.

Regards

Richard

dambit
06-21-2009, 02:23 AM
The willingness of some people to deliberately misunderstand this stuff is nothing short of staggering.



The SG is not an OU machine. It just helps create a condition in the battery which allows negative energy to enter and charge it. This is how I can charge a 135Ah true deep cycle battery in 12hrs with only 2 amps of conventional current being measured on the output. To do this with a conventional charger required 15amps input to the battery.

You are entitled to your opinion, and that's fine. Just don't take up thread space trying to convert people into skeptics. Creating an air of negativity for those of us who are happy and enjoy doing stuff like this doesn't help.

On the other hand, constructive criticism is welcome. :thumbsup:

Cheers,

Steve

patmac
06-21-2009, 03:49 AM
@linesrg

Hey excuse me, I've reading this post about Komrey, now I have not time to try it... Precisely I'm studying about batteries and capacitor charging in this moment I've two month on this but I need more time.

You can see about OU Bedini devices on Energy From The Vacuum DVD Part 2. Bedini shows something very interesting about OU, show a pendulum and makes the next test:

1) Show a deep cycle battery (I think is about 100aH), and make the test with BK Precision Battery Tester, the battery reads 90%.

2), Bedini connect a Power Inverter with a normal 100 Watts bulb by 5 minutes.

3), Makes the test with BK Battery Tester and the battery reads about 81%.

4) Connect the pendulum on a littles batteries cells in series reading about 14.56 volts on the begin, by 5 minutes, showing and explaining the system.

5) 5 minutes after pendulum is OFF, disconnect the battery from the pendulum and connect the BK Battery Tester, AND THE BATTERY READS 90% AGAIN.

6) Little battery packages read about 14.06 volts.

That is OU and not 1.0000001/1 Watts more, is very high COP, incredible high, 100 Watts bulb was connected by 5 minutes. These little batteries only in dreams can get light ON a 100 Watts bulbs continuosly by 5 minutes.

dambit is right, a little negative energy is necessary to charge a battery, if you have a SG for example by adding many generators coils is possible because this coils reads a little energy but on the battery is different "COP is on the battery says Bedini".

Hoppy
06-21-2009, 10:00 AM
The SG is not an OU machine. It just helps create a condition in the battery which allows negative energy to enter and charge it. This is how I can charge a 135Ah true deep cycle battery in 12hrs with only 2 amps of conventional current being measured on the output. To do this with a conventional charger required 15amps input to the battery.

You are entitled to your opinion, and that's fine. Just don't take up thread space trying to convert people into skeptics. Creating an air of negativity for those of us who are happy and enjoy doing stuff like this doesn't help.

On the other hand, constructive criticism is welcome. :thumbsup:

Cheers,

Steve

If you have 2 Amps at the output of your SG into your battery, what is the input current into the SG?

Hoppy

ren
06-21-2009, 10:02 AM
If its built correctly probably about 4 amps.

xpskid
06-21-2009, 12:32 PM
You are entitled to your opinion, and that's fine. Just don't take up thread space trying to convert people into skeptics. Creating an air of negativity for those of us who are happy and enjoy doing stuff like this doesn't help.

On the other hand, constructive criticism is welcome. :thumbsup:

Cheers,

Steve

Hear, Hear !!! :yahoo:

Timm

xpskid
06-21-2009, 12:36 PM
Does anyone knows this or just the whole thing is a typo? (put it mildly)

Regards,
Baroutologos

Baroutologos,

When I skimmed through this the first time, I didn't understand that either, but I didn't have time to study it. I was looking for build info and only found testing info so I moved past this. I'll revisit the numbers in this document this week.

Timm

dambit
06-21-2009, 01:20 PM
If you have 2 Amps at the output of your SG into your battery, what is the input current into the SG?

Hoppy

Hi Hoppy,

All up the charger draws 5 amps on the input. I have tuned it so that each transistor draws 250mA and the charger has 20 of them. So the actual measured output current is just shy of 2.5 amps.


Cheers,:cheers:

Steve

Hoppy
06-21-2009, 02:51 PM
Hi Hoppy,

All up the charger draws 5 amps on the input. I have tuned it so that each transistor draws 250mA and the charger has 20 of them. So the actual measured output current is just shy of 2.5 amps.


Cheers,:cheers:

Steve

Thanks, this is in line with my solid state SG variant charger which outputs just under 4 Amps with an input of 7.8 Amps @ 12V.

Can you run your charger with an ordinary 5 Amp wire fuse on the input? After a few minutes running, I rupture a 15 Amp fuse with just 11 Amps input. With my big straight conventional DC charger, this same rating fuse stays intact over 15 Amps being delivered to my 960A/hr battery bank. Any idea why this might be?

Hoppy

dambit
06-21-2009, 03:07 PM
Hi Hoppy,

I actually don't have any fuses installed on my setup. I power my charger via a regulated power supply. If anything goes wrong it's fuse will break I suppose.

Cheers,:cheers:

Steve

linesrg
06-21-2009, 08:31 PM
If you have 2 Amps at the output of your SG into your battery, what is the input current into the SG?

Hoppy

Hoppy,

Somebody who knows where I'm coming from!!!

I have yet to see an SG that is more than 40% efficient and I've built a few by the book from a simple 500gm coil upto a full blown 6 coiler and on battery banks up to 1350AHr.

The best that can be said about Bedini charging is that it is very efficient and I don't appreciate people not actually answering straight forward questions.

So Steve I ask again have you tried repeatedly charging (at whatever rate)and discharging your 135AHr battery at the C20 rate over a 2 week period continuously.

Have you been able to demonstrate that you have extracted more from your battery than you put in to the front end of your SG? It is almost impossible to accurately measure the output from an SG charging a battery so don't quote what you think you're measuring.

I have yet to meet anybody who has answered this question with a simple yes. They either come out with flannel or simple refuse to answer the question. There is only one reason for this. They haven't succeeded in extracting more energy from a battery than they put in at the front end.

There is something fundamentally flawed about evaluating OU based on the energy measured out of an SG in to a battery and the energy then extracted from that battery and using that as a basis for determining OU whilst completely ignoring the total energy input to the SG.

This has been put to JB and RF more than once and they have evaded answering the question actually posed on every occasion.

Regards

Richard

It's a simple question and scepticism doesn't come into it.

dllabarre
06-21-2009, 10:27 PM
Guys/Gals Please stay on topic.

A little deviation is fine but you've milked the efficency, or lack thereof, of the SSG for too long on this thread.

This thread is for people who are replicating the Bedini-Kromrey converter.
When people post non-related posts, over and over, the people who are on topic get their posts buried and questions not answered. Its not fair to the people who are on topic.

Please move the SSG conversation/debate to a more appropriate forum.

Thank you, :cheers:
DonL

dambit
06-22-2009, 01:34 AM
Hi Don,

I agree. :thumbsup:

Richard, in answer to the previous question and last thing I will say about the SG in this thread. Yes! And as I stated earlier (you'll like this part), I feel no need to prove it to anyone. :rofl:

Cheers,:cheers:

Steve

kent_elyue
06-22-2009, 03:40 AM
Hi at all,

I have been re-reading an old paper from Tom Bearden regarding John Bedini's Kromrey converter setup and experimental results. http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/Mueller.pdf

Ok, i can understand the logic of the results.
That i cannot understand is the wattage results given at document's page 9 (leaflet's page 6) in Table K-2.

He is stating that converter loaded with a battery outputs some 21 watts that corrects the figure (using a corrector factor) to 116 watts.
But, by using an 13,8 ohm resistor he gives 185,19 watts out, while by utilizing an 0,63 Ohm resistor he calculates 534,92 watts out.

Regards,
Baroutologos

Hi Baroutologos.

Perhaps I'll only add to your confusion, but I hope not. As I understand the document, the correction factor is used to to compare the charge efficiency of the Kromrey converter and a commercial charger. The two machines did not charge the battery with the same amount of current, nor in the same amount of time, so a direct comparison would not be possible. Current (amps) is a rate of flow over time, and so if you change the rate, you change the amount of charge in a given amount of time. Additionally, as the battery charges, the voltage changes, and so does the current flow. This effect is especially noticeable with the graph for the commercial charger. Because of this, a straight calculation of P=V*I isn't possible. The correction factor is a way of more accurately assessing the charge efficiencies. By using the AREA of the graphed results, you can more accurately compare how much energy each device delivered to the battery, even though the voltages, current flows, and charge-times differed.

When they used a simple resistance as a load, there is no correction factor necessary because 1) the voltage and the current flow is easily measured, and power is then a straightforward calculation (P=I^2*R), and 2) they didn't make any measurements using the resistors to load the commercial charger. They simply compared Watts In (to run the Kromrey) to Watts Out (into the load resistors.)

At least, that's the way I understood it.

xpskid
06-22-2009, 04:16 AM
Well I swapped shafts again tonight and went to copper. The copper performed equivalent to aluminum, and both performing much better than 316 Stainless Steel when judged using the amp load difference between open output and a shorted output.

I then swapped the lower armature 180 degrees. Remember both sides of the armatures are wound in the same direction. The orginal had the winding similar top and bottom when viewing in the same magnetic direction (north to south). I swithched them just to check if it made any difference before rewinding my coils. Basically I had close to zero output. 0.46 V DC, and 1.8 V AC. and my current draw was 3.8 A, equivalent to shorted draw of the original configuration. Just to verify, I hooked it up to a battery and didn't see any change in the voltage. The motor didn't noticably change upon shorting and retained the high current draw. Another configuration to rule out. :thumbsup:
Since the windings are the same, when spinning, the magnets see a constanly reversing wind, thus changing the wind direction won't change anything, is this correct ?. That leaves reversals in the winding on each armature as the last variable ? (plus pushing the resistance super low).

Regards,

Timm

baroutologos
06-22-2009, 07:25 AM
@ Kent,

Yes you are right. The correction factor is to correct the performance regardings amperes going to battery from convetional charger to Kromrey converter. Thats acceptable till proven.

BUT, the low ohmic resistance outputs are of question here.
The Kromrey converter outputed in that leaflet some 1 amps shorted. (quite reasonable) (http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/Mueller.pdf)
How can boost the output to almost 30 amps when applied this 0,6 ohm load? (unreasonable)

In fact I search at John's pages and saw that IceStuff.com: John Bedini ENERGY MACHINE PICTURES from The Encyclopedia of free energy,energy21.org,energy 21 org ,Geoff Egel (http://www.icestuff.com/~energy21/bedpic.htm) (see results 3 & 4) ) (although in a different setup - similar though)
amperage is about 3,7 amps at 13.5 ohms and 31.74 amps at 0,65 ohms

It cannot be so. This thing shorted outputs only some 1-2 amps max. By applying an 0.65 ohms it goes to 32 amps? Can it be?

I will e-mail JB directly (or at least try to) for explainations.

Regards,
Baroutologos

dllabarre
06-22-2009, 12:40 PM
Good!

I'm not the only one a little confused by that report. :suprise:
Thank you for asking JB for an explanation.

It would also be nice if we could all use the same (hopefully simple) test to determine performance of our Kromrey converters so we'll be comparing apples to apples, watts to watts. :)

DonL

xpskid
06-22-2009, 01:23 PM
Steve,

Do you have an inductance meter ?
Curious of what you read on your coils, and if the inductance changed when the aluminum cap are used.

Thanks,

Timm

Timm

dambit
06-22-2009, 04:25 PM
Hi Timm,

No i don't. I should probably look at getting one though.

Cheers,

Steve.

Hoppy
06-22-2009, 05:10 PM
There are a couple of things to consider in respect of the battery charger v Kromrey battery charging. Firstly, a battery that has been at rest prior to a charge can take a considerable number of charge / discharge cycles before it exhibits a stable charge / discharge curve. The second is that a battery that has been pulse charged conditioned can respond very slowly to being charged with a conventional DC charger. The original Mueller document gives us no information on how the test batteries were previously charged, the state of charge, or condition of the batteries used in the test prior to the tests being conducted. It is therefore quite possible that the initial Kromrey charge which preceeded the conventional charge could have been carried out without first having cycled the battery a good number of times as would nowadays be carried out on a normal load test for example with for example the SG energiser. The correction factor which was then subsequently calculated could have very likely resulted in very misleading end results.

Much has been learnt about batteries since 1984 when these tests were carried out. I have been pressing John Bedini to divulge his own current test method, so that we can all compare apples with apples and more importantly feel satisfied that the recommended test procedure is not flawed by not recording important data such as battery condition prior to performance tests.

Hoppy

MileHigh
06-22-2009, 11:49 PM
Wow, I read the first part of that report about the Kromrey converter tests in 1984. I hate to say that the data gathering methods and number crunching techniques are invalid. It is so flawed that I could write a small essay on what's wrong with the content in just the first six pages of the report. But I don't think that you guys want to be "taken off track" so I will leave it at that. If anybody wants to know what the issues are and discuss them slowly in a calm rational way, then fine. If not, that's fine too.

Aaron
06-23-2009, 01:15 AM
If this is a "builder's" thread, then it is possible for anyone that wants to debate the claims to start a thread on a Kromrey Discussion of Claims thread or whatever it should be called.

xpskid
06-23-2009, 03:12 AM
FYI...
~130 turns of bifilar #18 AWG yielded 0.1 ohms per coil, 57 uH.

Timm

dllabarre
06-23-2009, 03:27 AM
If this is a "builder's" thread, then it is possible for anyone that wants to debate the claims to start a thread on a Kromrey Discussion of Claims thread or whatever it should be called.

Actually I thought this was a Kromrey converter threat.
So if it has to do with a Kromrey converter then I think it should be discussed here.

I don't think discussing the SSG or other apparatuses fit this thread.
But that's just MHO. :D

DonL

Hoppy
06-23-2009, 09:38 AM
Wow, I read the first part of that report about the Kromrey converter tests in 1984. I hate to say that the data gathering methods and number crunching techniques are invalid. It is so flawed that I could write a small essay on what's wrong with the content in just the first six pages of the report. But I don't think that you guys want to be "taken off track" so I will leave it at that. If anybody wants to know what the issues are and discuss them slowly in a calm rational way, then fine. If not, that's fine too.

I agree, IMO its flawed beyond belief!

Hoppy

baroutologos
06-23-2009, 11:21 AM
I am sad to report the fundamentaly flawed energy measurements regarding Kromreay's Converter wattage output at low ohmic resistances, but on the other hand we cannot live upon wishes. Still if i am mistaken somehow i wait someone to answer it.

Anyway, i still believe this converter suitably arranged is a path to OU


question & Gambit:

Can you tell me please, what kind of motor have you mount? DC permanent type? Wattage?


Regards,
Baroutologos

dambit
06-23-2009, 12:36 PM
Can you tell me please, what kind of motor have you mount? DC permanent type? Wattage?


Regards,
Baroutologos

Hi,

These are the stats for the DC drive motor ia am using.

Voltage (V)
No load 12.0
Speed (RPM) 9700
Current (AMP) 1.3
Operating Range (V) 6-18

At Stall
Torque (kg/cm) 6.0
Current (AMP) 57

At Max Efficiency
Efficiency (%) 73
Power (W) 52
Speed (RPM) 8490
Torque (kg/cm) .60
Current (A) 6.0



Cheers,

Steve

baroutologos
06-23-2009, 01:10 PM
Thanks Dambit for your promt reply!

Whow, it seems to be a super-motor! 56 watts i suppose are enough for the job.
Perhaps any link for on-line vendors?


Regards,
Baroutologos

dambit
06-23-2009, 02:29 PM
Hi Baroutologos,

I got mine through a company here in Australia called Jaycar Electronics. They have a website Jaycar Electronics - Better. More Technical. (http://www.jaycar.com.au) and do online sales. It's a very cheep motor, it only cost me $24.

Cheers,

Steve

MileHigh
06-23-2009, 10:41 PM
Baroutologos:

> I am sad to report the fundamentaly flawed energy measurements regarding Kromreay's Converter wattage output at low ohmic resistances, but on the other hand we cannot live upon wishes. Still if i am mistaken somehow i wait someone to answer it.

In theory there is nothing wrong or surprising about increased current output into a lower-valued resistor. However, like I said, there are so many flaws in the report that it makes every piece of data in the report questionable.

There is a big follow-up question: How did they make a 0.63 ohm resistor that can sustain 630 watts of power dissipation? It would be a significant piece of work to do that. A 1000-watt toaster has a resistance of about 14 ohms. A 120-volt-2400-watt oven element has a resistance of about 6 ohms. How did they make a 0.63 ohm resistor that can sustan at least 630 watts of power dissipation? Why don't they mention it in the report?

> The correction factor is to correct the performance regardings amperes going to battery from convetional charger to Kromrey converter. Thats acceptable till proven.

The correction factor is a flawed concept.

kent_elyue
06-24-2009, 03:14 AM
> How did they make a 0.63 ohm resistor that can sustan at least 630 watts of power dissipation? Why don't they mention it in the report?


When dealing with negative (time-reversed) energy, one is in effect creating a "Negative Resistor" and therefore one does not need to dissipate anything. How does one accurately calculate anything when one's test equipment isn't really capable of accurately measuring what is really happening anyway? For example, measuring amps when one should be measuring local environmental heat change is only going to serve to confuse everyone.

Personally, I think the knowledge comes from doing - NOT from arguing about it. 'Nuf said.

MileHigh
06-24-2009, 03:36 AM
Kent: The report alleges that the output is 20 volts DC at 31.7 amps from a full-wave bridge rectifier into a conventional resistor load of 0.63 ohms. They are talking real power, not "negative energy" or a "negative resistor." That's one big hot resistor that you could cook breakfast on. A standard biggish 1-watt resistor that you might see people experimenting with in a video clip would blow up in a fraction of a second at that power level. The whole premise of this forum is to make proper measurements when you experiment in order to create something that can be replicated and verified for the benefit of mankind.

Shamus
06-24-2009, 04:16 AM
It certainly is puzzling until you realize that they didn't measure the current, they simply measured the voltage and used Ohm's law to calculate the power. The results then are not so surprising. And I would bet you a shiny new nickel that if they measured the amps in that circuit it wouldn't have shown 32 amps on the output side. :)

But of course, then, Ohm's law is out the window as the equation no longer balances. Now we're swimming through some murky waters! So then the conclusions are either the measurements they took were wrong (certainly possible) or they were measuring something other than normal electric current (also possible).

baroutologos
06-24-2009, 06:32 AM
Ok people, enough said about the Mueller report.

Let people make the Konverter, and i am very confident that all we have much to learn from this procedure!

Special thanks to pioneers (replicators) here for the effort, time and money on this purpose.

Regards,
Baroutologos

ps: I wait with anxiety results!
PS2: thank Gambit for motor supplier :D

Hoppy
06-24-2009, 09:14 AM
Kent: The report alleges that the output is 20 volts DC at 31.7 amps from a full-wave bridge rectifier into a conventional resistor load of 0.63 ohms. They are talking real power, not "negative energy" or a "negative resistor." That's one big hot resistor that you could cook breakfast on. A standard biggish 1-watt resistor that you might see people experimenting with in a video clip would blow up in a fraction of a second at that power level. The whole premise of this forum is to make proper measurements when you experiment in order to create something that can be replicated and verified for the benefit of mankind.

Yes, you nail it here! This machine is claimed to be a negative energy device but the original testers were quite happy to use conventional positive energy measurements to prove their claim. It is now for them to answer the critics of their procedures and methods in conventional EE terms, not just remain silent, hiding behind the negative energy shroud shouting - 'but you can't measure it'!

Hoppy

Joit
06-24-2009, 10:04 AM
Yes, you nail it here! This machine is claimed to be a negative energy device but the original testers were quite happy to use conventional positive energy measurements to prove their claim. It is now for them to answer the critics of their procedures and methods in conventional EE terms, not just remain silent, hiding behind the negative energy shroud shouting - 'but you can't measure it'!

Hoppy

Sorry, but i dont think, the conventional EE Terms can explain it.
And even when you work on such Devices, you have to complete Think different to the 'conventional'.
And most dont get even a Patent on theyr Things, because they cannot explain it how they would hear it,
and thats just the lack of knowledge and understanding with our conventional Theories and Theoreticians.
Or can someone explain with a conventional Theorie why some of this Motors speeding up, when you put load on them.
They should more explain, why they still use the wrong Poles, instead correct them.

baroutologos
06-24-2009, 10:58 AM
@ Joit,

Motor speed-up huh? Have you ever experience it? I have it. Dambit have it. Many people i know have it. It not mystical, even though not in conventional teachings.

IMO, again, this is must be the key to OU. Speeding up :) with input down :D

Regards,
Baroutologos

if you want to learn more about speeding up see http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4170-bedinis-free-energy-generation-machine-aka-1984-aka-watson-3.html , have some patience and go through the topic. Take your time.

Hoppy
06-24-2009, 12:53 PM
Sorry, but i dont think, the conventional EE Terms can explain it.
And even when you work on such Devices, you have to complete Think different to the 'conventional'.
And most dont get even a Patent on theyr Things, because they cannot explain it how they would hear it,
and thats just the lack of knowledge and understanding with our conventional Theories and Theoreticians.
Or can someone explain with a conventional Theorie why some of this Motors speeding up, when you put load on them.
They should more explain, why they still use the wrong Poles, instead correct them.

Hi Joit

I don't need to build a Kromrey converter to demonstrate a motor speeding up under load. Its easy enough to do - See Thane Heins's thread on the Overunity.com forum. He is not saying that its caused by negative energy and cannot be explained by conventional electrical principles. The reasoning for this effect is discussed in this thread and is worth reading end to end.

Hoppy

Shamus
06-24-2009, 02:06 PM
Does it also explain things like cold behind the magnets, powering a load with a tiny wire, being able to hold touch the ends of the wires without getting shocked, or cooling of a charging battery? If so, that would be cool (no pun intended!).

Again I state that if you took the measurements in the Mueller document (not just voltage, but voltage *and* current) that V = IR would no longer balance, and then you're in trouble from a conventional standpoint. Perhaps they would hold looking at things from instantaneous point of view (i.e., integration), I don't know. I wasn't there and they don't explain their methodology for how they took their measurements.

I mean really, questioning things is one thing, but this constant and unrelenting skepticism is really starting to wear thin. Science is supposed to be all about testing and observation; where are yours? I'd say that if you aren't building *and* testing then you are contributing nothing to this thread. I would respectfully ask that you please start another thread and post your skepticism there like Richard did with his SSG thread so that people who actually *are* building and doing tests can share their observations without having to wade through a bunch of unrelated posts (that goes for pro as well as con!).

xpskid
06-24-2009, 05:38 PM
@Joit If you look at Steve's scope traces you see spiked curve rather than a gradual shift. The faster the motor turns the sharper the gradiant gets. The nature of a flux gate or magnetic lock is to self close once the flux path is near completion. Until it is near completion the flux is going perpendicular to the coil. So you have an unresisted approach and a strong attraction once you get there. The strengthened attraction outweighs the cemf of the coils on approach. Coincidently the spikes we are seeing are from the breaking of the flux gate. Now if you figure that the magnetic arrangement is nnss. Traditional theories say that when you break from the first magnet with the coil shorted it would be attracted to the second one as well at the first. When spun fast enough, the field collapses closer to the second magnet creating emf rather than cemf.

(Correct me if I get this wrong Steve)
When you try to interpret Steve's trace, I believe he build a six pole machine which should be NSNSNS, a four pole machine would be NNSS

Timm

xpskid
06-24-2009, 05:43 PM
I am building and I am reporting... :thumbsup:
I don't mind others offering a few suggestions as to configurations or observations picked up from the DVD or other reliable sources, but I don't have time to justify why I'm interested in building this. :sshh:

I love to experiment and build stuff, so I'm leaving it there....

Regards,

Timm

redeagle
06-24-2009, 07:38 PM
(Correct me if I get this wrong Steve)
When you try to interpret Steve's trace, I believe he build a six pole machine which should be NSNSNS, a four pole machine would be NNSS

Timm

I think you are right Timm, I went back and looked at the picture of the generator that I was thinking about. It was someone elses. I am going to retract my previous post until we can get a confimation on which arrangement that was a scope trace of.

Thanks for pointing out the mistake.

Matt

Joit
06-24-2009, 07:45 PM
Hoppy, which Thread, can you give me a Direction?
I am not often at OU.com and dont have much overview about the Posts there.
Afterwards i think, you been joking about the Explanation, and think, i better had been silent.

And yes, i did build such a Thing with one Coil and simple 4 N-S Magnets, what been 2x2 stick together and it did speed up at very low Pulses. I put a mechanical Load on it, to slow it down, but it increase slowly at speed.
My Coils been wound some different, with 76-100- then allways 6 Turns slower down back to 74.
I dont think, there is the Key to OU, but its maybe a part of it.

Hoppy
06-24-2009, 08:06 PM
Hoppy, which Thread, can you give me a Direction?
I am not often at OU.com and dont have much overview about the Posts there.
Afterwards i think, you been joking about the Explanation, and think, i better had been silent.

And yes, i did build such a Thing with one Coil and simple 4 N-S Magnets, what been 2x2 stick together and it did speed up at very low Pulses. I put a mechanical Load on it, to slow it down, but it increase slowly at speed.
My Coils been wound some different, with 76-100- then allways 6 Turns slower down back to 74.
I dont think, there is the Key to OU, but its maybe a part of it.

Joit

The thread is: Thane Heins Perepiteia (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?board=109.0)

Hoppy

dambit
06-25-2009, 01:34 AM
I think you are right Timm, I went back and looked at the picture of the generator that I was thinking about. It was someone elses. I am going to retract my previous post until we can get a confimation on which arrangement that was a scope trace of.

Thanks for pointing out the mistake.

Matt

Hi Guys,

I should have clarified which arrangement I was testing for that scope trace. For that particular image I was only using 2 magnet blocks. N-S. I had removed the other 4 as I was taking everything back to basics. When all six blocks are in place the AC wave form looks like a regular sine wave. Having said that, I didn't have the scope setup when I had my original coil arrangement exhibiting the speed up when shorted effect, so I can't compare the difference.

Cheers,

Steve.

xpskid
06-25-2009, 03:00 AM
Configuration #4
I rewound the coils using ~ 130 turns of bifilar #18 AWG magnet wire. I did not have enough room on my spool for trifilar, and thought bifilar would still assist in lowering the resistance.
John advised to use Copper/Carbon brushes to lower the resistance. Since the only low resistance brushes I could find (Silver/Carbon) were $45 apiece, I thought I’d try braided copper since this is just a test device and not meant for a long term show piece.

Resistance (total system, across wires at FWB, through brushes) = 0.5 ohms
Inductance (total) 247 µH

I use the coil configuration (Figure 1), slip > coil 1 >coil 2 > coil3 > coil4 > slip
1500 rpm (12v) = 7.5 V DC
= 10.8 V AC
3000 rpm (24v) = 17.8 V DC
= 21.1 V AC
Amp draw with no load = 4.3 A
Amp draw with output shorted = 5.7 A

I did not observe any of the characteristics shown in the DVD.

Configuration #5
Trying to figure out where to go next …..

ren
06-25-2009, 09:35 AM
Timm have you changed the brushes recently? Or are they the same size as the ones used for all past experiments?

xpskid
06-25-2009, 01:17 PM
Timm have you changed the brushes recently? Or are they the same size as the ones used for all past experiments?

Hi Ren,

Yes... this was a new brush set-up. I was using graphite/carbon brushes (images in earlier post), and John suggested they may add too much resistance and suggested copper/carbon brushes. Everything I found was expensive ($45 per) so I thought I'd try used braided copper (desolder)(new image above). They aren't a long term solution but they're a low resistance short term solution.
What I don't understand is I had the amp load delta down to 0.2 amps in the first configuration after moving to an aluminum shaft, but this one didn't perform as well (0.8 amp delta). In the video John always prefaced his statements with "when wound correctly"... so I'm thinking that is the key, but unsure what to try.

I still need to think about this somemore but thought my inductance figure might give me some insight into impedance at the higher frequency and pulses.

Regards,

Timm

dllabarre
06-25-2009, 02:10 PM
Configuration #4
I rewound the coils using ~ 130 turns of bifilar #18 AWG magnet wire. I did not have enough room on my spool for trifilar, and thought bifilar would still assist in lowering the resistance.


How did you connect the bifilar wires on each coil to the other coil on the same armature and from the top armature to the bottom armature?

Did you just connect the 2 wires together on each end of each coil and run 1 wire from coil to coil?

DonL :thinking:

linesrg
06-25-2009, 02:53 PM
Guys,

'We' are building a Kromrey and I'm not a sceptic as I've probably built more derivatives of rotor and solidstate SG's than a considerable number of other people.

I have 2off 6" aluminium rotored devices and more solid state devices with every modification JB has revealed to such as the OTG group so with respect to other builders here I am in a position to talk with some experience behind me.

I've charged up to 1350Ahr battery banks consisting of 12off Trojan T105's.

I would love to confirm some of the clues we're directed to look for on this device. A colleagues build of a Ron Cole motor has shown that this type of device will increase speed when shorted out so I don't doubt that the Kromrey will.

We will be determining the actual temperature of this 'cold air' using a highly sophisticated device called a thermometer which will be corrected for the effective wind speed. Such devices are somewhat less subjective than the back of the hand test.

Equally battery case temperature will be determined using a thermometer.

The No.1 question I have is that 'we' won't know if we have succeeded in replicating the device that John has shown as we have no definitive test to copy i.e. drive the converter with a known voltage/ amperage for a set period than apply a known load to the battery charged.

Given John changed the target figure between 120 and 180% during the DVD it still wasn't clear what he meant by OU.

As I understand it in the past OU has been defined by John as the comparison between what goes in to the battery and what you get out (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Thus my understanding is that the reason why John says nobody is intererested until you hit 300% is that the average conversion efficiency of such as an SG is only circa 35% and thus you'd need 300% 'OU' to be ahead of the game.

Hopefully in due course we'll be bale to put some figures to all this.

Can I suggest somebody asks John for more details of the materials used in the build of a Kromrey??????????????????????????????

REgards

Richard

Mark
06-25-2009, 03:14 PM
DVD
ENERGY FROM THE VACUUM

A Documentary Series. Volume 10.
THE KROMREY CONVERTER (G-FIELD GENERATOR)
Dialogues with JOHN BEDINI
2 HOUR 4 MINUTES

Well, here it is, John Bedini's legendary “G-field generator” from the early 1980s in all its glory running on the bench and putting out more power than John is putting in. And ejecting a stream of freezing cold air from its interior, where one would “normally” expect heat would be produced and dissipated.
In this DVD John Bedini, painstakingly traces the “G-field generator's” pedigree and history all the way back to the late Professor Raymond Kromrey, and John then presents the theory, the circuit diagram, what to do, and what not to do, to build one that works. Watch, too, how John shows the motor running under load with the circuit only completed by a strand of wire the diameter of a human hair—an impossibility with conventional EM energy.
For the practically minded, this DVD is all anyone could ask for if one was contemplating building an overunity electrical motor.
Is this fanciful talk? Well, John's manufacturing and production team was rapidly infiltrated and destroyed, and M.I.T. bought up the last remaining twelve operational units from John, never to see the light of day again, so you can draw your own conclusions.
Also included is the archival footage from the celebrated 1984 “Town Hall Meeting” with Bill Jenkins, in which John springs this technology on an unsuspecting world. This DVD is truly historic.

:thinking: "John then presents the theory, the circuit diagram, what to do, and what not to do, to build one that works. For the practically minded, this DVD is all anyone could ask for if one was contemplating building an overunity electrical motor."

I believe John is genuine but, I think anyone that has purchased this DVD deserves a little more info.

xpskid
06-26-2009, 03:33 AM
How did you connect the bifilar wires on each coil to the other coil on the same armature and from the top armature to the bottom armature?

Did you just connect the 2 wires together on each end of each coil and run 1 wire from coil to coil?

DonL :thinking:

Don,

I terminated each coil (Bi & Tri filar) and then connected to the next using 14 gauge copper wire.

Timm

MileHigh
06-27-2009, 02:52 AM
Xpskid: You made a few basic measurements with configuration #4 and you are implying that you want to move onto a new configuration. Am I correct in assuming that you have a full setup with an electric motor powering your magnet-coil configuration and it is a reasonably faithful replication of a Kromrey Convertor? If yes, why change configurations? Can you come up with a plan for making measurements on the setup? What are the characteristics shown in the DVD that you are trying to observe beyond the "cold air" effect? Did you get any cold air?

Lambda
06-27-2009, 08:53 AM
I've read posts on this site for some time, and this is my first post. Anyhow, I hope I'm not posting information that has already been brought to the groups attention, but I found it to be of value. I myself am in the process of replicating the Kromrey Converter, and am having trouble getting mine "inside of the bell curve". My current build is one in which the magnets rotate and the coils are static, and the next one is in the process of being machined by a friend and myself, and will resemble John's in EFTV 10. What seems to be the most difficulty is tuning of the coils & RPM to get it inside this bell curve. I believe we need to identify the criteria in which you know you are running not only inside this curve, but once there, how to optimize the coils and RPM of the motor to reach the peak. Back in 1996, Jean of JLN labs replicated Cole's G-field generator. What I found that would be applicable is John Bedini's comments at the end. Jean's replication and results can be found here:

G-Field V1.1 Test Report (http://www.gnucash.org/mirrors/mirrors/jnaudin.free.fr/html/gfield.htm)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Comments from JOHN BEDINI :

<<

Their is a difference between My G-Field and Jeans, Go to My section and look at the pictures I have put up there in motors and ideas, You will see that My Machine has four poles with permeate magnets on the out side. The G-Field is a flux gate generator the curve in which it works is very important along with the windings most of these generators will at some point be 120% or better, but it must be matched to the load. It runs on a Bell Curve so You must be at the top of this curve at the correct speed, I have suggested to Jean that he uses a brushless motor and a non- magnetic shaft this is very important. the 10 inch generator on my page uses a motor that only draws 1amp or 12 watts at 12 volts the output from this proto-type generator is 14.5 volts at 5 amps = 72.5 watts, But 2.5 amps moves back inside the generator so you are left with 36.25 watts to back charge the batteries.

When building this Generator You must build it with Transformer laminations or You will have Eddie current losses in the pole pieces this will cost you 10 watts or better. The way to get the current out of the Generator ,You must"Tri-filer wind the coils" this lowers the Impedance of the coils, The coils are in series on this machine. As You can see that 1/2 the power moves back into the generator you must get this out of the coils "BY LOWERING THE COIL IMPEDANCE" and matching to the load you want to power. One more thing that I might add to are discussion is that when the G-Field is operating correctly the motor current must move down under load to 1/2 the power input, as You can see now the power input drops to 6 watts . "Ron Cole's Test were done under full DC conditions, The G-Field output "MUST BE FULLY RECTIFIED AND FILTERED TO PURE DC".

I hope You understand what I have said here, because this is why they have all failed at making this Machine.

John Bedini

>>

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope this is of use to the group. (As they say, the devil is in the details...) :thumbsup:

Kind Regards,

Michael Hess

kent_elyue
06-27-2009, 08:54 PM
The patent cited in the video is Kromrey's Patent #3374376. In reading the patent again I picked up on a couple things. I know John said generically that the patent was wrong, but I will cite the points here in case they are possibly relevant to successful replication.

Point #1: It is claimed that laminations are used in the pole pieces (stator), and in the armature pieces. The patent does stipulate which direction the laminations are to be stacked. The exact wording (starting in Column 2, line 24) is this: "The armatures... may consist in essence of highly permeable foils whose principle dimension is perpendicular to the rotor axis." I assume the "principle dimension" to be the length.

Point #2: The ends of the armature pieces are curved to match the concave surfaces of the pole pieces such that the air gap is constant throughout rotation.

Point #3: The sum of the arcs of the four poles have a sum totaling 90 degrees of rotation. This means that each arc covers 22.5 degrees of rotation.

Point #4: It is claimed that the power output does not change linearly with speed of the rotor. Column 4, line 62 onward states that the power output did not drop substantially even with a 25% reduction in rotor speed, and in another test the output did not change substantially over the range of 1600 rpm down to 640 rpm.

Perhaps these points are worthy of consideration.

Shamus
06-28-2009, 03:08 AM
All very pertinent info and well worth pondering. :thinking: And I think John is quite correct about there being a "bell curve" (or "window" if you will) in which the device will operate and display the phenomena described in the EFTV #10.

And I have to remind myself that every failure teaches something--as long as I'm willing to listen. :) Yes, I consider the mk I to be a failure because of several design problems. So, after carefully considering the design flaws of the mk I, I'm building the mk II (sorry, still no pictures as I can't find the charger to my digital camera :mad:).

It's similar to the mk I except I built the rotor in a cage just in case magnets decide to go flying. Also I used only 50 ft of #22 on each coil (instead of 100 ft), trifilar wound, non-twisted, and made sure of the polarity of each coil by putting the cores next to each other and energizing them to see if they attracted or repelled. :) The ohms of the coils this time are around 1.2 total, much better than I had hoped. I can't wait to do some testing with this setup. ;)

dllabarre
06-28-2009, 01:04 PM
Point #1: It is claimed that laminations are used in the pole pieces (stator), and in the armature pieces. The patent does stipulate which direction the laminations are to be stacked. The exact wording (starting in Column 2, line 24) is this: "The armatures... may consist in essence of highly permeable foils whose principle dimension is perpendicular to the rotor axis." I assume the "principle dimension" to be the length.



Did JB use laminated coils on the Kromrey Converter he demostrated in the video?
If not, would laminated coils raise the COP? :thinking:

Thank you,
DonL

xpskid
06-28-2009, 02:00 PM
Xpskid: You made a few basic measurements with configuration #4 and you are implying that you want to move onto a new configuration. Am I correct in assuming that you have a full setup with an electric motor powering your magnet-coil configuration and it is a reasonably faithful replication of a Kromrey Convertor? If yes, why change configurations? Can you come up with a plan for making measurements on the setup? What are the characteristics shown in the DVD that you are trying to observe beyond the "cold air" effect? Did you get any cold air?


Hi MileHigh,

Here are my objectives:

EXPERIMENTAL PROCEDURES
This project is a reproduction of the Kromrey generator as shown in John Bedini’s EFV 10 DVD.
No procedures or methods exist other than those instructions and visual demonstrations presented by John.

Due to the non-traditional nature of the energy demonstrated, use of traditional meters may provide indication of relative differences, however should not be used as definitive metrics or reference. Key characteristics of desired performance include:
• Anti-Lentz effect – The motor should draw less current when under load
• Cool air streams should be evident in the area of the botch walls of the magnet stacks
• The output should exhibit efficient charging of a lead acid battery
• The lead acid battery should cool down when charging

Everything I've read and the primary point of the Kromrey patent is that the device will draw less amps when under load or shorted than when unloaded.
If it draws more current and slows down when loaded, I probably don't have it right yet. I still record the AC/DC output, I hook it up to a battery and watch the voltage reading on the battery. I check for cold air, but the device will move a lot of air by the armature turning.

I have changed many things since starting...
Shaft composition : I'm moving to brass... have used 316LSS, Aluminum, Copper
I had granite spacers between the top of my pole pieces and the aluminum top/bottom plate... moving to aluminum spacers
Windings: I've tested #23, #18 and a couple different winding configurations.

I believe the winding configuration is the key...
What is wonderful, is this thread attracts people similarly interested and we are not lacking for ideas to try...

Regards,

Timm

kent_elyue
06-28-2009, 02:19 PM
Did JB use laminated coils on the Kromrey Converter he demostrated in the video?
If not, would laminated coils raise the COP? :thinking:

Thank you,
DonL


I had checked the screenshots on the dvd to see if I could verify one way or the other, but it did not "look" like laminations on either the poles or the coils. However, both the patent and John Bedini state that laminations would reduce the eddy currents. (See Lambda's post #228 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4231-bedinis-kromrey-converter-8.html#post58292))

kent_elyue
06-28-2009, 02:27 PM
I built the rotor in a cage just in case magnets decide to go flying.

A non-magnetic cage?
I know, stupid question... :)

baroutologos
06-28-2009, 03:06 PM
@ Timm

What else could be done?

Assuming magnet strength / geometry, magnetic flux manipulation, coil cores and coil possitioning is as supposed (told). The ONLY variables left to you to manipulate is:

* coil's windings
* armature speed

There has not to be any "voodoo magic" involved. As with just any generator these are the variables.
By the way, I have witnessed the anti Lenz' effect in a setup of mine.
Regards,
Baroutologos

dllabarre
06-28-2009, 03:59 PM
@ Timm
By the way, I have witnessed the anti Lenz' effect in a setup of mine.
Regards,
Baroutologos

How are your coils wound: :notworthy:

AWG?
number of turns?
single, bi-filar, tri-filar?
If bi or tri, how many wires did you run from 1 coil to the next?


I don't mean to be a PITA but the more details we present here the easier it will be for others to resolve their issues.

Thank you,
DonL

PITA=Pain In The A?? :rofl:


PS: the rest of my parts should be in by Wednesday!!

MileHigh
06-28-2009, 04:58 PM
Hi Timm,

I'll take a stab at some of your comments:

> No procedures or methods exist other than those instructions and visual demonstrations presented by John.
You can always try to braistorm and come up with some of your own! Reading up on DC motors and generators would help. I know that the allegation is that the Kromery generator is a non-traditional generator, but it appears on first look to be a conventional generator where mechanical power pushes coils through a magnetic field, inducing current/voltage in the coils. Any energy transfer through the coils into a load will casuse a Lenz' drag on the electric motor that is powering it. When you run a test and watch it rotate, everything quickly falls into a balance. The input electrical power, the motor/generator RPMs and mechanical power transfer into the generator, the power going into the load and the lost power as heat all find a settling point. I suppose one possible question is does the settling point of the Kromery convertor differ greatly from a similar motor/generator setup?

I know that people will make a point about the unconventional nature of the convertor and traditional measurements may not apply. However, if you consider the convertor as a "black box" with the mechanical input on one side, and the electrical output that drives a load resistor on the other side, then you don't care if what's inside the black box is unconventional. You can measure the output power going into the load resistor. The voltage and current going into the load resistor will be conventional.

> • Anti-Lentz effect – The motor should draw less current when under load
That is a fairly complicated thing and it would be great if somebody really investigates it. In general terms, you would expect lower current consumption for when the generator output is shorted, and when it is open circuit. That's because in both cases no power is being transfered into the load. Somewhere between zero ohms load and infinite ohms load there is a "sweet spot" resistive value for the whole motor/convertor/load system that would put maximum power into the load and therefore draw the most current from the motor. So will the Kromrey convertor exhibit radically different performance curves than a conventional motor/generator in this case? I realize that the replicators might not want to take it this far with respect to making measurements, but you can always do some bacis investigations and then make some infrences.

> • Cool air streams should be evident in the area of the botch walls of the magnet stacks
Basically impossible to measure for the average experimenter but you can always make a subjective measurement!

> • The output should exhibit efficient charging of a lead acid battery
With respect to what? How do you define efficiency? Again, it would resuire some serious testing that perhaps only a die-hard would want to do.

• The lead acid battery should cool down when charging
> Easy measurement, looking forwards to the results. You are going to have to make sure the battery is out of the airflow generated by the Kromrey convertor because that would invalidate your measurements.

> Everything I've read and the primary point of the Kromrey patent is that the device will draw less amps when under load or shorted than when unloaded.
If it draws more current and slows down when loaded, I probably don't have it right yet. I still record the AC/DC output, I hook it up to a battery and watch the voltage reading on the battery. I check for cold air, but the device will move a lot of air by the armature turning.

I read that you recorded the AC/DC output, but you didn't mention if it was under load or not. Do you have a scope? The reason I ask is that the output waveform from the convertor will change under load because they have that output cpacitor in the circuit. It will be a pretty funky waveform, and you really would need a true-RMS multimeter or a scope to make accurate power readings.

> I have changed many things since starting...
Shaft composition : I'm moving to brass... have used 316LSS, Aluminum, Copper
I had granite spacers between the top of my pole pieces and the aluminum top/bottom plate... moving to aluminum spacers
Windings: I've tested #23, #18 and a couple different winding configurations.

I am no expert but I can offer my suggestion: All of your support components for the motor should ideally be non-magnetic and non-conductive. That way you will not be interfering with the magnetic fields or burning off energy as heat due to eddy currents. However, I cannot imagine that the materials you use will have noticable performance on the convertor. The main focus of the convertor is to complete a strong magnetic flux circuit when the coils line up with the stator magnets. Changing external parameters will have very liitle affect on this.

Good luck with your testing.

MileHigh
06-29-2009, 04:55 AM
> Windings: I've tested #23, #18 and a couple different winding configurations.

Here is the basic number crunching on the windings: A single very thick winding or a bifilar or trifilar winding setup that has the same cross-sectional area as the single very thick winding will behave the same way if the number of turns is the same. Bedini is making a point to try to keep the coil resistance as low as possible to reduce the i-squared x resistance losses to a minimum.

The "sweet spot" resistor is also known as the impedance matching resistor. The resistor can be tuned to match the output impedance of the coils when they are functioning in the running convertor. This is not to be confused with the resistance measurement for the coils. When the load resistor is an impedance match for the coil setup, then you will get the maximum possible power transfer into the load at a given RPM. This will also generate a maximum Lenz drag effect on the driving electric motor. Depening on the power of your setup, the impedance matching resistor might have to be able to dissipate tens of watts.

The higher the number of turns in your coils for a given RPM, the higher the open-circuit output voltage you will get from the convertor. As you know, the higher the output voltage, the lower the output current. Coils with a higher number of turns have a higher output impedance, and therefore the impedance matching load resistor has to be a higher value to make the match for the maximum power transfer into the load.

Ultimately, it does not matter how many turns your coils are wound to, as long as the coil dimensions are about the same, the maximum power output from the convertor will be the same. You just have to change the load resistor to find the match for a given coil setup.

If anybody is looking for a relatively economical way to measure the power into the load resistor, you probably have seen sound card adapters and software that you can use to capture waveforms. Gotoluc has a setup like that, and I have to assume that the software can do RMS power calculations on captured waveforms. The output wavefom from the convertor is only slightly sinusoidal, so you really do need a true RMS power calculation.

Everything above is applicable to a conventional generator. My gut feeling is that the Kromrey convertor will produce power in pretty much the same way as a conventional generator, except the convertor's output waveform will be quite different from a standard sine wave. The convertor looks to me like it has a very strong cogging point when the coils line up with the stator magnets. I really don't think that strong cogging point is gong to help when it comes to it's ability to produce output power. The cogging is an unwanted "disturbance torque" as far as the motor is concerned. The only way to make that go away would be to have a huge flywheel attached to the shaft, and that's not part of the design.

I could be wrong but I think the most important point is not to assume it's conventional, and also to not assume it's not conventional. You have to build it and then play with it and investigate to find out for yourselves.

linesrg
06-29-2009, 05:30 AM
Don't forget Bedini did show a flywheel in the DVD and mentioned it would help the cogging effect.

A colleague has also suggsted using some kind of pulsing motor drive (PWM) to drive this device.

Regards

Richard

baroutologos
06-29-2009, 06:48 AM
I don't mean to be a PITA ...


@ DONL

PITA? LOL! Man we are to share views and info. The more specific and technical we get the more closer to any solution we are.

In order to witness the accelaration effect (at worst the non slow-down effect when coil is shorted) my setup is composed:

A rotor 12'' diam composed of 6 neomagnets 1'' diam all north face out.
RPM must be 1200+
Coil single wire, 29AWG at 75 ohms! When shorted accelaration DOES occur.
Nothing else on the others oddities mentioned.

I hope this helps,

.................................................. .
@MileHigh

Ultimately, it does not matter how many turns your coils are wound to, as long as the coil dimensions are about the same, the maximum power output from the convertor will be the same. You just have to change the load resistor to find the match for a given coil setup.

Very true. In a given setup (magnet strength, topology, coil's core material and shape, rotor rpm) any given coil has a specific amount of output no matter how the windings are.
But, in order to extract the maximum energy out of it, it is desired the least ohmic resistance possible.
Anyway, the accelaration effect requires great coil impedance and NOT low coil impedance. The accelaration effect also does stack as you connect many coils in series in same phase. That's my (note that) experience.


Regards,
Baroutologos

ps: do it yourself :)

Paul Harmans
06-29-2009, 01:44 PM
Dear John,

Thank you for your quick response and details!

The machine I want to build is the same size you are demonstrating on the DVD. My motor is a 12V DC 3000 rpm’s.

Are your coils trifilar winded, or just one strand 130 turns? And what is your core diameter?

Some here are building a Kromrey with six stacks of magnets; yours have four, what is your opinion about the six poles?

Regards,

Paul


I’m sorry Steve and others, still no answer from John Bedini on above questions.

pneuphysics
06-29-2009, 06:43 PM
Hello all,

I joined this group coming from the Monople_1 group where I have spent several years working on variants of the monopole units. I have built units ranging from a single pole hard drive platter units to a 25lb. stainless steel rotor unit with 3 large quadfilar coils - spins about 500rpm scary :)

I have spent the last few months working on a Kromrey converter and here is what my experience has been. First of all i want you to know as a newby i read all the previous posts before sharing.

I have built a 2 coil (quadfilar from previous unit) stationary unit and had my first decent test last night. Here are my results:

After test run of 3 minutes:
Magnet temp. = 83.4 deg. F
Pole pieces temp. = 94.5 deg. F
Air expelled was not measured due to the need for an accurate system.
Battery was a gel cell 7ah - its temp dropped 1.2 deg. F in 3 minutes.
Battery rose .17vdc in 3 minutes.
24vdc motor drive was 1.11 amps while the kromrey output was open
24vdc motor drive was .86 amps while the kromrey output was shorted
Approx a 22.5% reduction in draw.
The system ran noticable faster when it was shorted, no doubt. I am building an rpm gauge to read the exact difference.

This unit is not pretty but i think it may help someone on here when i get my details posted. I am noticing some neat anomolies with respect to speed and geometry. The output wave was the key that got me to where I am.

Got to get back to work :(

xpskid
06-29-2009, 09:09 PM
Hello all,

This unit is not pretty but i think it may help someone on here when i get my details posted. I am noticing some neat anomolies with respect to speed and geometry. The output wave was the key that got me to where I am.

Got to get back to work :(

Pneuphysics,

That is great !! Thanks for joining us on Steve Forum :thumbsup:

I know several people here have iron's in many different fires trying to draw together a collective of thoughts... some sources want to remain anonymous, but we're trying to get the details out without breaking any trust.

Please share your details when possible...

There is a general concensus building that the mechanical part isn't too difficult, but the windings and impedance values have been a challange. It's good to see someone try a quadfilar to examine even lower inductance. Anything special about your wind, direction, or coil sequence ?

Looking forward to seeing your build.

Thanks !!

Timm

Lambda
06-29-2009, 09:28 PM
I have re-wound my coils and they are now in the configuration that John Bedini recommends on the DVD. I am not noticing any of the effects that John shows in the DVD, and I believe I know why (I need to tri-filar my coils for one). I would really appreciate any other thoughts on this, because I am stuck and believe this is the key.

On EFTV 10 DVD around 34:30 into it, John draws out the circuit, with the coils in a tri-filar configuration, all in series. He said, "We found out it was an impedance problem. You cut the impedance by 3." He mentions that the impedance of the coils would be 3 ohms, and then when tri-filar wound it should drop to .4 ohms. He mentions impedance, not resistance! Well, impedance has many variables as most of you know, and to calculate the impedance in this particular case, you would first measure the inductance of the coil, and use the standard formula to get your inductive reactance (impedance).

X(L) = 2*pi*f*L, X(L) being inductive reactance as I cannot do subscripts on here.

Now, plug in the inductance you measured and then the other variable would be your frequency, which is based upon the RPM and the number of poles. If it is a 4 pole, I imagine there would be 4 pulses per revolution, so multiply the RPM by 4. Now I can see why John states it is a bell curve, and is speed dependant, as the impedance is frequency dependant.

I certainly appreciate any and all feedback as we are all in the same boat trying to figure this out and understand the technology. This is all sounding very familiar with the SSG having a purely reactive output, as it seems we are seeking the same thing in this case as well.

Regards,

Mike H.

pneuphysics
06-29-2009, 09:48 PM
xpskid - i could not get the coils to work when they were wound in the same direction so i peeled one apart and rewound it so the coils are wound in opposite directions and then connected in series. They each consist of 4 strands of tight twist 18ga. about 300 feet long and one 22 ga. trigger wire as the monopole junkies will recognize :) all twisted together and soldered together at the ends so they are in parallel. I do have an inductance meter so i can measure them for you. The coils are about 3.5" in outside diameter and are wrapped arround a 1" steel bolt inside a pcv pipe with acrylic 1/4" side pieces. The bolt is anealed in an oven at 2000deg. F for a few hours to grow some oxide on the outside - not sure that is important but it does keep them in place :) I got the same results many in here got until my wave form looked like the one on Bedini's site for the stationary coil unit Ron Cole put together. I will post the scope trace of Ron's and mine when i get home. You may have all noticed but the scope trace looks to make sense with what is going on. It looks like a big sine wave that has been inverted part way up the pos slope and the sine pulse rides down and back up - same on the neg part of the wave. My thoughts are the magic is in that quick reversal, but could be wrong :)

Back to work :( i'll post more tonight, mostly pics. Oh BTW the reason for the short test is i need to build a better motor support. just wanted to run it long enough to do a quick test.

Take care,
Pneuphysics

pneuphysics
06-29-2009, 09:56 PM
Lambda -

I am inclined to try the rotating armature with coils in the future. If i do i am going to try an idea i picked up on the net where all coils are arranged with the outside poles all the same and inside obviously the same but opposite. Has anyone tried this yet?

Pneuphysics :thumbsup:

xpskid
06-29-2009, 10:24 PM
xpskid - i could not get the coils to work when they were wound in the same direction so i peeled one apart and rewound it so the coils are wound in opposite directions and then connected in series.

Pneuphysics,

Reference the winding diagram in post #220. It's difficult to explain the windings in words, so you can use that image to say what is different or the same.

Regards,

Timm

kent_elyue
06-29-2009, 11:39 PM
It looks like a big sine wave that has been inverted part way up the pos slope and the sine pulse rides down and back up - same on the neg part of the wave. My thoughts are the magic is in that quick reversal, but could be wrong :)

That's my thinking, too. I have considered that scope picture at length and tried to fathom it. It almost looks like a bounce, as if the signal overshot and snapped back, or hit some invisible boundary and reflected back on itself, before reversing polarity.

Just thinking aloud... I wonder if there is a way to precisely correlate the signal to the physical position of the coils in their rotation, and if there is any point in bothering?

MileHigh
06-29-2009, 11:47 PM
Gentlemen, you don't ever need to rewind your coils to change your confugurations. All that you need to do is swap the wires, it's as simple as that. When you swap the wires you invert the voltage waveform from the coil and reverse the current direction. Someone once posted that an easy way to check your coils are correctly connected in series is to measure AC volts while you run the motor. Just measure the voltage across two coils in series, swap the wires of one of the coils, run the motor again and measure the voltage. The configuration that gives you the higher AC voltage is the right one. Two coils in series can either add together or cancell each other out, so it's important.

kent_elyue
06-29-2009, 11:53 PM
For what it's worth, here's another small (perhaps meaningless) detail. I was just studying the screenshots from the DVD again and I noticed that the height at which the stacked magnets rest on the pole pieces seems to be down around the center point of the coil. See the attachment. It's taken from around the 15 minute mark of the video.

kent_elyue
06-30-2009, 12:05 AM
Gentlemen, you don't ever need to rewind your coils to change your confugurations.

Under "normal AC situations" you may be right. But here I beg to differ. There is such a thing known as the "Right-hand Rule."


From Wikpedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_hand_rule)

"Left handedness

In certain situations, it may be useful to use the opposite convention, where one of the vectors is reversed and so creates a left-handed triad instead of a right-handed triad.

An example of this situation is for left-handed materials. Normally, for an electromagnetic wave, the electric and magnetic fields, and the direction of propagation of the wave obey the right-hand rule. However, left-handed materials have special properties - the negative refractive index. It makes the direction of propagation point in the opposite direction."

A perfect example of this is if one makes two short coils on the same core and joins them in the center (there are 3 possible permutations this way), as opposed to using one wire only and starting in the center of the core and, by turning the core, working outwards to both opposite ends. The latter is a very different result from any possible combination of wiring you can achieve using the first method of winding. I saw a picture of this recently, too. I'll see if I can locate it.

kent_elyue
06-30-2009, 12:33 AM
I couldn't find the picture I remembered, so I drew a very lame one to illustrate.

Simply switching wires around does NOT always accomplish the same end result as rewinding a CW winding into a CCW winding. In the picture below, no matter how you configure the two separate windings in the upper coil, you can never achieve the same result as in the lower coil.

MileHigh
06-30-2009, 12:59 AM
Kent: I can't visualize the coil winding thing you are describing, a picture would be appreciated.

> It looks like a big sine wave that has been inverted part way up the pos slope and the sine pulse rides down and back up - same on the neg part of the wave. My thoughts are the magic is in that quick reversal, but could be wrong

If you guys can post a link to the waveform picture and a picture of the setup I should be able to explain it to you. Once you understand what's going on it should allow you to just look at any kind of generator and visualize the output from it.

> X(L) = 2*pi*f*L, X(L) being inductive reactance as I cannot do subscripts on here.

> Now, plug in the inductance you measured and then the other variable would be your frequency, which is based upon the RPM and the number of poles. If it is a 4 pole, I imagine there would be 4 pulses per revolution, so multiply the RPM by 4. Now I can see why John states it is a bell curve, and is speed dependant, as the impedance is frequency dependant.

Those are really interesting points above. I realize that I made a mistake with my previous comments saying the coil output impedance was more important than the coil resistance. The reason for this is that the frequency 'f' in the equation above will be roughly ((RPM x 4)/60) and the 'L' will also be very small. Therefore X(L) will be a very very small number.

The total impedance of the coil will be the coil resistance R plus the reactance X(L). Since X(L) is so small at your generator frequency you can ignore it. Without a long story, I was also incorrect about searching for an impedance match for generator applications.

Please have a look at the firt part of this application note from Jaycar: (I hope I can post URLs, and you can see where I went wrong for a typical generator application)

www dot jaycar dot com.au/images_uploaded/impmatch.pdf

Finally, the frequency calculation is very very roughty ((RPM x 4)/60) in your setup but it is quite a bit more complicated than that. It's actually a frequency spectrum.

MileHigh
06-30-2009, 01:13 AM
Kent: Re: The drawing with the two coil examples. Your lower coil is a combination of a CW coil followed by a CCW coil on the same core. That's something that you never want to do because if the two halves are the same number of turns they will cancel each other out and there will be no inductance at all.

What I said about simply swapping the wires from the coils to make sure they all add up is true. Of course I am assuming that in the convertor both coils are passing by their respective magnets at the same time. You can look at a coil output as a device that generates a "differential" output. The only thing that is important is the difference in voltages across the two terminals of the coil. If you flip the wires of the coil, it's the same as reversing the wires of your multimeter, when the instantaneous voltage on the terminals measures 10 volts, you can flip the wires of the coil, or flip your multimeter leads, and you will measure -10 volts. It's like you can get a mirror image of the voltage waveform just by swapping the leads. I hope that helps!