PDA

View Full Version : Solid State Bedini


Pages : [1] 2

Mark
10-31-2008, 02:33 PM
Has anyone built and had any luck with a multi coil, multi circuit solid state Bedini charger?

slayer007
10-31-2008, 02:44 PM
Has anyone built and had any luck with a multi coil, multi circuit solid state Bedini charger?

Look down a couple threads pulse generator.
It works really good.

Lidmotor has a couple GREAT videos on youtube showing how to get the older circuit going "search for slayer007 roter less pulse motor".
The new one works much better but to get it started its about the same.:thumbsup:

Hoppy
10-31-2008, 04:13 PM
Has anyone built and had any luck with a multi coil, multi circuit solid state Bedini charger?

Hi Mark

I have built a 17 strand single coil charger using 19swg (18awg) x 100ft strands. I use this to charge a 460 A/hr golf cart battery set. I'm not at liberty to post the circuit schematic as it is mostly a Bedini design. It is based on a simple solid state blocking oscillator circuit which drives additional transistors from a common trigger circuit. The oscillator produces extremely fast leading edge pulses which is essential for good performance. Each transistor output is taken from the collector via an ultra fast single diode to a common output bus for connection to the charging battery. All transistors are MJL21194.

The coil former is 7" x 5" with an air core. My 100ft trigger strand is wound on first, followed by the power strands in a 4 x 4 configuration (4 x 4 twisted strands).

A big single coil multi-strand charger is easier to build and get running than a multi-coil, multi-strand charger because the magnetic fields collapse in synch using a single coil where all strands are wound together. This gives a more effective discharge spike.

A big charger like this needs a good power supply which will deliver at least 10Amps. The average input current for my charger is about 5 Amps but the peak pulse current is much higher. For good performance its important to get the impedance very low using a big cap across the supply lines. I use 8AWG conductors for the input power supply and the output output charging leads. A fuse or preferably circuit breaker is essential in the supply line for safety reasons to prevent serious damage in case of a transistor failure resulting in a short circuit.

The Bedini '1 ohm test' replacing the charging battery should give less than 1volt drop across the resistor, as with the normal SG monopole energiser.


Hoppy

Bodkins
10-31-2008, 06:12 PM
The Bedini '1 ohm test' replacing the charging battery should give less than 1volt drop across the resistor, as with the normal SG monopole energiser.


Hoppy

how do i do a '1 ohm test' hoppy, I just dont understand it!

Mark
10-31-2008, 06:25 PM
Hoppy, are you using the basic solid state configuation from the free energy book. I have the book and have constructed a number of rotating chargers along with a couple of solid state ones but I haven't tried a multi circuit solid state one yet. I have the same transistors your useing and I'm using a 4 strand coil with a 26awg trigger and 20awg power windings at 150 feet. But all pulse wires are tied to 1 transistor. I have 4 other 4 wire coils ready to go for a rotating charger I have but am tired of dealing with the wheel and am considering going completely to solid state. I could wind all 16 wires plus triggar on 1 coil as you do if its beneficial. I have been rotating battery banks back and forth and have yet to have any access energy. I am beginning to wonder if I should have just spent my money on solar cells or a wind generator instead. Also are you useing the cap on the input side or the output side. Ans what values is it.

Hoppy
10-31-2008, 06:25 PM
The Bedini '1 ohm test' replacing the charging battery should give less than 1volt drop across the resistor, as with the normal SG monopole energiser.


Hoppy

how do i do a '1 ohm test' hoppy, I just dont understand it!


Bodkins

As I understand the test, a 1 ohm resistor is simply placed across the output in place of the charging battery and the DC voltage measured across the resistor. The voltage should be under 1V to pass the test. If it is above, then too much current is flowing into the battery. I have not seen any limitations given to the size or type of energiser, so I assume that this test applies to all energisers.

John Bedini calls this 'breaking the energiser' to show that there is no appreciable current flowing into the battery. With a rotored energiser, the rotor should start to slow down and eventually stop.

Hoppy

Druide
11-04-2008, 02:50 PM
Hoppy, are you using the basic solid state configuation from the free energy book. I have the book and have constructed a number of rotating chargers along with a couple of solid state ones but I haven't tried a multi circuit solid state one yet. I have the same transistors your useing and I'm using a 4 strand coil with a 26awg trigger and 20awg power windings at 150 feet. But all pulse wires are tied to 1 transistor. I have 4 other 4 wire coils ready to go for a rotating charger I have but am tired of dealing with the wheel and am considering going completely to solid state. I could wind all 16 wires plus triggar on 1 coil as you do if its beneficial. I have been rotating battery banks back and forth and have yet to have any access energy. I am beginning to wonder if I should have just spent my money on solar cells or a wind generator instead. Also are you useing the cap on the input side or the output side. Ans what values is it.

Hi Mark,

Wich circuit in the FEG book do you refer to as the basic solid state configuation ?

Thanks

Michel

Mark
11-04-2008, 04:10 PM
What I'm currently using a MJL21194 transistor, 10K resistor between emmitter and base, 18K resistor between base and collector, 2K resistor between base and trigger. I have a 4 wire coil, 26awg triggar, and 3 20awg power wires in parallel. I'm charging dirrectly off the collector with a 4007 diode. I'm thinking about dismantling my old set up and going to A 17wire solid state set up with 16 transistors charging directly off the collectors. All wires wrapped on a single spool. I'm also wondering if its better to have an air core. I am also charging car batteries not little ones like most people are using.

Hoppy
11-04-2008, 04:19 PM
Hoppy, are you using the basic solid state configuation from the free energy book. I have the book and have constructed a number of rotating chargers along with a couple of solid state ones but I haven't tried a multi circuit solid state one yet. I have the same transistors your useing and I'm using a 4 strand coil with a 26awg trigger and 20awg power windings at 150 feet. But all pulse wires are tied to 1 transistor. I have 4 other 4 wire coils ready to go for a rotating charger I have but am tired of dealing with the wheel and am considering going completely to solid state. I could wind all 16 wires plus triggar on 1 coil as you do if its beneficial. I have been rotating battery banks back and forth and have yet to have any access energy. I am beginning to wonder if I should have just spent my money on solar cells or a wind generator instead. Also are you useing the cap on the input side or the output side. Ans what values is it.

Mark

Sorry I did not reply earlier as I seem to have missed your post.

I do not use the FEG Page 46 solid state design. Mine just uses one feedback resistor as shown in the attached schematic. A big cap across the input supply rails is very important if a PSU is used because the charger will draw high current pulses from the supply. I have built the FEG Page 46 energiser and it works OK for small batteries.

I have also built wheel energisers but prefer solid state for charging. The wheel energiser is a good learning device but is only useful for serious use if scaled up and this is an expensive project with a need to house the energiser externally from the house because of noise and vibration. IMO if you want a good fast charge rate with quiet operation then go solid state. Small bike wheel type energisers are excellent for re-conditioning batteries, especially old ones that are sulfated.

A Bedini battery conditioning / charging setup for use as an off the grid solution will need an external environmental source of energy to run it such as solar / wind generators. IMO no amount of battery swapping will give a system that can self-sustain itself let alone provide 'free' power. At best the system will extend the life of the batteries having conditioned them. There's no free lunch here but there certainly is a lot of hype surrounding Bedini technology.

IMO John Bedini has given us an excellent introduction to his technology and this allows us to learn how to use it to our advantage. He has not given us the blueprint for a system that can be 'knocked-up' in the shed or backyard that will self run and take us OTG.

Hoppy

Druide
11-04-2008, 07:29 PM
Mark

Sorry I did not reply earlier as I seem to have missed your post.

I do not use the FEG Page 46 solid state design. Mine just uses one feedback resistor as shown in the attached schematic. A big cap across the input supply rails is very important if a PSU is used because the charger will draw high current pulses from the supply. I have built the FEG Page 46 energiser and it works OK for small batteries.

I have also built wheel energisers but prefer solid state for charging. The wheel energiser is a good learning device but is only useful for serious use if scaled up and this is an expensive project with a need to house the energiser externally from the house because of noise and vibration. IMO if you want a good fast charge rate with quiet operation then go solid state. Small bike wheel type energisers are excellent for re-conditioning batteries, especially old ones that are sulfated.

A Bedini battery conditioning / charging setup for use as an off the grid solution will need an external environmental source of energy to run it such as solar / wind generators. IMO no amount of battery swapping will give a system that can self-sustain itself let alone provide 'free' power. At best the system will extend the life of the batteries having conditioned them. There's no free lunch here but there certainly is a lot of hype surrounding Bedini technology.

IMO John Bedini has given us an excellent introduction to his technology and this allows us to learn how to use it to our advantage. He has not given us the blueprint for a system that can be 'knocked-up' in the shed or backyard that will self run and take us OTG.

Hoppy

Hi Hoppy,

Thanks for the schematic. I agree with you saying that small wheel energisers are good for reconditionning old sulfated batteries. I have found that for recharging large batteries they take too much time.

Is the battery shown on your schematic the drive battery or the charging battery ? What is connected between the two "X" marks ?

Thanks !

Michel

Hoppy
11-04-2008, 09:56 PM
Hi Hoppy,

Thanks for the schematic. I agree with you saying that small wheel energisers are good for reconditionning old sulfated batteries. I have found that for recharging large batteries they take too much time.

Is the battery shown on your schematic the drive battery or the charging battery ? What is connected between the two "X" marks ?

Thanks !

Michel

Hi Michael

The schematic is a 'front-end' extract of my full schematic and shows the drive battery. The 'X' marks are the position for a normally closed thermal switch which disconnects my trigger circuit in the case of an open circuit output.

Hoppy

Druide
11-04-2008, 11:09 PM
Hi Michael

The schematic is a 'front-end' extract of my full schematic and shows the drive battery. The 'X' marks are the position for a normally closed thermal switch which disconnects my trigger circuit in the case of an open circuit output.

Hoppy

Thanks for your reply Hoppy !

I'd realy like to build this circuit but a few things puzzle me.
I suppose the thermal switch is installed on the transistors heat sink and a neon is connected across the transistor's collector and emitter.
Unlike the Bedini SSG circuit, the drive battery + is connected to the trigger coil's south pole, so the coil is fed by the battery via D1 R2 R1 and VR1, why is this for ?
Is the vertical line that comes down the "X" mark on the schematic and connects to R1, connects somewhere else (it crosses the horizontal bottom line) ?

Michel

Hoppy
11-05-2008, 08:29 AM
Thanks for your reply Hoppy !

I'd realy like to build this circuit but a few things puzzle me.
I suppose the thermal switch is installed on the transistors heat sink and a neon is connected across the transistor's collector and emitter.
Unlike the Bedini SSG circuit, the drive battery + is connected to the trigger coil's south pole, so the coil is fed by the battery via D1 R2 R1 and VR1, why is this for ?
Is the vertical line that comes down the "X" mark on the schematic and connects to R1, connects somewhere else (it crosses the horizontal bottom line) ?

Michel


Michel

I do not use neons because I have not found them very effective at high power when using multi power strand chargers. I use transient voltage suppresors (TVS diodes) rated at around 188V (4 x 47V devices in series) directly across the charger output to ground. The thermal switch is bonded onto two of these diodes. See attached schematic which shows how the TVS diodes are connected to the charger output.

On power-up the transistor is biased hard on via the trigger winding, VR1, R1 & R2 to start oscillation. This gives the necessary very fast leading edge pulse every time the transistor switches on. This is a blocking oscillator and works differently from the solid state energiser shown in the FEG book.

The junction of R1/R2 (trigger bus line) is extended to feed the trigger to additional power transistors / strands. These are termed 'slave' transistors. The first transistor shown in the schematic is the 'master'. The base of each slave transistor is connected to the trigger bus line via a current limiting resistor the same value as chosen for R2.

Hoppy

Druide
11-05-2008, 09:36 AM
Michel

I do not use neons because I have not found them very effective at high power when using multi power strand chargers. I use transient voltage suppresors (TVS diodes) rated at around 188V (4 x 47V devices in series) directly across the charger output to ground. The thermal switch is bonded onto two of these diodes. See attached schematic which shows how the TVS diodes are connected to the charger output.

On power-up the transistor is biased hard on via the trigger winding, VR1, R1 & R2 to start oscillation. This gives the necessary very fast leading edge pulse every time the transistor switches on. This is a blocking oscillator and works differently from the solid state energiser shown in the FEG book.

The junction of R1/R2 (trigger bus line) is extended to feed the trigger to additional power transistors / strands. These are termed 'slave' transistors. The first transistor shown in the schematic is the 'master'. The base of each slave transistor is connected to the trigger bus line via a current limiting resistor the same value as chosen for R2.

Hoppy

Thanks alot Hoppy !

I think I have enough data to build this SS energiser, as soon as I can gather the parts. Will post my results.

Michel

dambit
11-05-2008, 01:55 PM
I'm not at liberty to post the circuit schematic as it is mostly a Bedini design.

I don't mean to be rude or anything, but why is it that every time someone with a decent working device, for some reason can't show us the schematic. I understand wanting to protect copyrights and stuff, but isn't this forum suppossed to be a place where people help each other and not just say "I know how to do it, but I'm not telling you."

There are lots of very helpfull people here, but sometimes I just get frustrated with all this rubbish. :wall:

Sorry for my rant.

Steve.

Druide
11-05-2008, 03:19 PM
Michel

I do not use neons because I have not found them very effective at high power when using multi power strand chargers. I use transient voltage suppresors (TVS diodes) rated at around 188V (4 x 47V devices in series) directly across the charger output to ground. The thermal switch is bonded onto two of these diodes. See attached schematic which shows how the TVS diodes are connected to the charger output.

On power-up the transistor is biased hard on via the trigger winding, VR1, R1 & R2 to start oscillation. This gives the necessary very fast leading edge pulse every time the transistor switches on. This is a blocking oscillator and works differently from the solid state energiser shown in the FEG book.

The junction of R1/R2 (trigger bus line) is extended to feed the trigger to additional power transistors / strands. These are termed 'slave' transistors. The first transistor shown in the schematic is the 'master'. The base of each slave transistor is connected to the trigger bus line via a current limiting resistor the same value as chosen for R2.

Hoppy

Hoppy,

Would'nt it be easier to use one big TVS, 200 V or so, instead of four smaller ones or is there a particular reason to use four ?

Thanks !

Michel

Hoppy
11-05-2008, 05:22 PM
I don't mean to be rude or anything, but why is it that every time someone with a decent working device, for some reason can't show us the schematic. I understand wanting to protect copyrights and stuff, but isn't this forum suppossed to be a place where people help each other and not just say "I know how to do it, but I'm not telling you."

There are lots of very helpfull people here, but sometimes I just get frustrated with all this rubbish. :wall:

Sorry for my rant.

Steve.

Dambit

I know its frustrating but you need to realise that people have received warnings about posting patented Bedini circuit schematics on forums not controlled by JB and his colleagues.

Hoppy

Hoppy
11-05-2008, 05:27 PM
Hoppy,

Would'nt it be easier to use one big TVS, 200 V or so, instead of four smaller ones or is there a particular reason to use four ?

Thanks !

Michel

Michel

No problem with a 200V device. I used 4 x 47V diodes just because I had plenty of them surplus. The collector / emitter breakdown voltage for the MJ21194 is around 250V, so I would not go much over 200V.

Hoppy

Mark
11-05-2008, 08:37 PM
I thought if something was patent that you could post and make it as long as you dont sell it in any way. But what do I know.

ashtweth
11-06-2008, 12:26 AM
Hi Hoppy , your writing style is similar to a person named Clive i know is that you?

Now Rick and John don't mind if the patent drawing is being shown, just don't post a schematic that is copyrighted from the FEG book:thumbsup:

dambit
11-06-2008, 05:05 AM
I thought if something was patent that you could post and make it as long as you dont sell it in any way. But what do I know.

Exactly my thought. You can build one for yourself, but not for commercial use. Besides, the reason these techs are not in wide spread developement and in use by the public is because everyone is thinking "how much money can I make" and not "how can I help the planet". The very reason why Stan Mayer failed to get his tech developed.

Anyway enough of the off topic. I am gratefull for what info we have been given.:)

Hoppy
11-06-2008, 08:56 AM
Hi Hoppy , your writing style is similar to a person named Clive i know is that you?

Now Rick and John don't mind if the patent drawing is being shown, just don't post a schematic that is copyrighted from the FEG book:thumbsup:

Hi Ash

Yes that's me.

Thanks for your comments. I received a personal warning for just talking about the FEG Page 46 circuit in a technical manner and did not even post the schematic, so you will understand why I'm reluctant to post a schematic containing any complete Bedini circuit and discussing it in detail.

Clive

Mark
11-06-2008, 12:49 PM
Wow, It seems like I talked about it more in detail than you did and no said anything to me.

Druide
11-07-2008, 03:28 AM
Thanks again Hoppy, your explanations are realy clear, even though I don't know much about electronics, I'm pretty sure I get it.

One more thing, what about the bus that comes down from the "X" mark and crosses the ground bus, does it connect somewhere else ?

Michel

Hoppy
11-07-2008, 08:36 AM
Thanks again Hoppy, your explanations are realy clear, even though I don't know much about electronics, I'm pretty sure I get it.

One more thing, what about the bus that comes down from the "X" mark and crosses the ground bus, does it connect somewhere else ?

Michel

Michel

I have 16 power strands in 4 groups of 4. The 22R resistor shown serves 4 transistors, so the trigger bus line connects to 3 further 22R resistors to serve the other 3 groups of 4 transistors.

Clive

Druide
11-07-2008, 04:12 PM
Michel

I have 16 power strands in 4 groups of 4. The 22R resistor shown serves 4 transistors, so the trigger bus line connects to 3 further 22R resistors to serve the other 3 groups of 4 transistors.

Clive

Thanks Clive ! It becomes more and more clear.

OK, then, I guess the (-) side of the charging battery and the other ends of the power / slave strands are connected to the (+) drive bus.

I have a 37000 MFD 75 VDC electrolytic capacitor, is it suitable for the PSU lines ?

Thanks again :thanks:

Michel

Hoppy
11-07-2008, 04:31 PM
Thanks Clive ! It becomes more and more clear.

OK, then, I guess the (-) side of the charging battery and the other ends of the power / slave strands are connected to the (+) drive bus.

I have a 37000 MFD 75 VDC electrolytic capacitor, is it suitable for the PSU lines ?

Thanks again :thanks:

Michel

Michel

Yes, just as per a normal SG monopole configuration.

Your cap is ideal for the power lines. I suggest you fuse your drive PSU / battery at about 10 Amps on the output side if you run at 24V with over 16 strands. Don't neglect this fuse as it could save you from a melt down if a transistor short circuits. This happened to me so I know the mess it can cause!

Make sure you have some big batteries if you use a lot of power strands. Golf cart types with 'wet' cells are better than big gel types but you probably already know this.

Clive

Druide
11-07-2008, 06:34 PM
Michel

Yes, just as per a normal SG monopole configuration.

Your cap is ideal for the power lines. I suggest you fuse your drive PSU / battery at about 10 Amps on the output side if you run at 24V with over 16 strands. Don't neglect this fuse as it could save you from a melt down if a transistor short circuits. This happened to me so I know the mess it can cause!

Make sure you have some big batteries if you use a lot of power strands. Golf cart types with 'wet' cells are better than big gel types but you probably already know this.

Clive

Clive

I can figure out what a mess a shorting transistor could cause with such high power !

I have four 100 A/h marine and three car starting batteries. I know that the car batteries won't last very long if I use them to feed an inverter but I've got them for free.

With all the information you have given us, I think I've been able to reconstitute a complete circuit schematic of your energizer. However, I hesitate to post it on this forum as I don't want to be harassed, sued, abducted, jailed, tortured and killed :rofl: , unless you an other concerned persons give me the authorization to do so.

Once again, thanks alot ! :thanks:

Michel

Hoppy
11-07-2008, 08:32 PM
Clive

I can figure out what a mess a shorting transistor could cause with such high power !

I have four 100 A/h marine and three car starting batteries. I know that the car batteries won't last very long if I use them to feed an inverter but I've got them for free.

With all the information you have given us, I think I've been able to reconstitute a complete circuit schematic of your energizer. However, I hesitate to post it on this forum as I don't want to be harassed, sued, abducted, jailed, tortured and killed :rofl: , unless you an other concerned persons give me the authorization to do so.

Once again, thanks alot ! :thanks:

Michel


Michel

Go for it! You will learn a lot by building and fine tuning to your specific batteries. I've spent the last two years experimenting with Bedini energisers adding all sorts of exotic add-ons and modifications but in the end its hard to beat John Bedini's basic SG monopole in a scaled up single coil multi-strand configuration, either rotor or solid state.

Your batteries may need a lot of conditioning charge / discharge cycling to lower their impedance in order to increase capacity, so once you have built the energiser think about how you can automate a charge / discharge routine using a C20 load (1/20th of the battery bank ampere hour capacity).

Clive

Druide
11-08-2008, 12:35 AM
It will take a few weeks before I can get to town (have to drive 100 km for electronic parts !) to gather all the stuff, but until then, for those (if there are) who haven't figured it out, here's my schematic of Clive's solid state energizer. All the parts numbers and values are detailed in this thread. If I have it wrong, please correct me.

Michel

Correction : all the emiters should be connected to the drive battery negative.
Thanks Jetijs for noticing this mistake.

theremart
11-08-2008, 01:57 AM
Michel

Yes, just as per a normal SG monopole configuration.

Your cap is ideal for the power lines. I suggest you fuse your drive PSU / battery at about 10 Amps on the output side if you run at 24V with over 16 strands. Don't neglect this fuse as it could save you from a melt down if a transistor short circuits. This happened to me so I know the mess it can cause!

Make sure you have some big batteries if you use a lot of power strands. Golf cart types with 'wet' cells are better than big gel types but you probably already know this.

Clive

I bought some 5 amp breakers... because of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53SWRJJYEgw:eek:

Druide
11-08-2008, 01:43 PM
I bought some 5 amp breakers... because of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53SWRJJYEgw:eek:

Hi Mart

After watching your video, I added fuses on my two running SSG, thanks for the warning !

Michel

dambit
11-09-2008, 02:12 AM
Hi Mart,

Good video and advice!.:thumbsup:

What is that computer program you use to chart the voltage rises? Or do you do that manualy and then tabulate it?

Cheers,

Steve.

P.S. Clive/Hoppy, thanks for all you explanations about the circuit. Druide, your schematics is very well layed out, if it's ok with you I'm going to replicate this circuit and do some test. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Druide
11-09-2008, 01:57 PM
Hi Mart,

Good video and advice!.:thumbsup:

What is that computer program you use to chart the voltage rises? Or do you do that manualy and then tabulate it?

Cheers,

Steve.

P.S. Clive/Hoppy, thanks for all you explanations about the circuit. Druide, your schematics is very well layed out, if it's ok with you I'm going to replicate this circuit and do some test. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Thank you Steve, it's the first time I'm using software to lay out a circuit schematic, it does a real neat job! I hope this will help those who want to replicate this circuit, it's my little contribution to this open source engineering community.

Keep on sharing open source engineering :thumbsup:

Michel

theremart
11-09-2008, 09:44 PM
[QUOTE=dambit;34462]Hi Mart,

Good video and advice!.:thumbsup:

What is that computer program you use to chart the voltage rises? Or do you do that manualy and then tabulate it?


------------------------------------------------

I am using the CBA II

West Mountain Radio - CBA Support (http://www.westmountainradio.com/supportcba.htm)

I am thinking of rebuilding my 4 coiler from 100 scratch. I think I want what Clive has a solid state version that can charge golf cart batteries. the circuits I have built thus far can't take 3 amps. Soo... I am going to think about this for awhile. I need to figure out what I want to achieve.

Clive, does your version give you over 100%? Can you generate excess electricity with your setup?

I am wondering what the advantages are for that large a SS setup...

Hoppy
11-09-2008, 10:36 PM
[QUOTE=dambit;34462]Hi Mart,

Good video and advice!.:thumbsup:

What is that computer program you use to chart the voltage rises? Or do you do that manualy and then tabulate it?


------------------------------------------------

I am using the CBA II

West Mountain Radio - CBA Support (http://www.westmountainradio.com/supportcba.htm)

I am thinking of rebuilding my 4 coiler from 100 scratch. I think I want what Clive has a solid state version that can charge golf cart batteries. the circuits I have built thus far can't take 3 amps. Soo... I am going to think about this for awhile. I need to figure out what I want to achieve.

Clive, does your version give you over 100%? Can you generate excess electricity with your setup?

I am wondering what the advantages are for that large a SS setup...


Hi Mart

As with all Bedini energisers mine is electrically fairly inneficient at about 50 - 60% front to back. Any gain will be seen in the batteries as improved capacity over time through desulfation resulting in lower internal resistance.

It is important to keep the battery bank well conditioned with regular shallow charge / discharge cycles whilst not supplying the main load, so a practical use needs to found for the energy discharged, otherwise is is just wasted resulting in a reduction in overall system efficiency.

Clive

mlindeblom
11-10-2008, 02:06 AM
Do you have any recommendations a what frequency to run this blocking oscillator at?

Is there any data correlating operating frequency to charging efficiency?

Hoppy
11-10-2008, 09:55 AM
Do you have any recommendations a what frequency to run this blocking oscillator at?

Is there any data correlating operating frequency to charging efficiency?

Hi mlindeblom

The frequency will be largely determined by the coil characteristics. On load my oscillator operates at around 2.2KHz.

I have no specific data but in general terms charging efficiency is determined by the level of current applied and as inductive discharge charging using the Bedini method is current limited, then charging efficiency is claimed to be lagely dependant upon battery condition rather than operating frequency. That is charging efficiency increases as the battery internal resistance decreases through conditioning which reduces sulfation. Having said this, the consensus is that charging efficiency improves the higher the frequency is up to about 15KHz.

Clive

mlindeblom
11-10-2008, 05:27 PM
Thanks for the informative responce re: frequency.

Would it be more effective to drive the coils with a PWM (pulse width modulator) at say 10KHz and control the current draw by adjusting the duty cycle?

IMO this would give better control over the process; however: I have not tried it and do not know how the results would compare.

I would expect to add a driver stage prior to the coil driving transistors to get sharper turn on/off.

Hoppy
11-10-2008, 06:16 PM
Thanks for the informative responce re: frequency.

Would it be more effective to drive the coils with a PWM (pulse width modulator) at say 10KHz and control the current draw by adjusting the duty cycle?

IMO this would give better control over the process; however: I have not tried it and do not know how the results would compare.

I would expect to add a driver stage prior to the coil driving transistors to get sharper turn on/off.


I have tried the PWM approach and found the rotor trigger pulse can be replaced by a sharp PWM generated pulse but IMO the blocking oscillator works best. Its important that all ideas are experimented with, so that opinions can be based on 'hands on' experience.

Clive

Jetijs
11-11-2008, 11:42 PM
Hi,
I have some big 200Ah truck batteries that are laying around and do not hold a charge for long time. So I decides to make one of my quintfilar coils into a Bedini solid state oscillator. The circuit is very simple, one strand of wire is used for triggering and is leading to bases of four transistors though a 50Ohm resistor. The other end of the trigger strand is connected to the ground. Then we have the input positive lead is connected to one side of remaining wire strands and the other end of those strands is connected to the collector of the transistor, so that each strand has its own transistor. All the transistor emiters are then tied together and go to the negative line of the power supply. Each collector of those transistors has its own 1n4007 diode that delivers the inductive spike to the charging battery + terminal. The charging battery minus terminal is connected to the power supply positive line. Here is a picture:

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/thumbs/lrg-637-img_2822.JPG

The coil has five strands of 200 feet long wire that makes about 450-500 turns. The core is copper coated welding rods. There are no resistors or diodes connecting the transistor base with emitter, because when I used a diode, I could not get the thing to self oscillate. Anyway, it works just fine. Each transistor makes the circuit consume 0.5-1.3A depending on the input voltage and charging battery state. So all the transistors together consume 2-3A constantly. And this charges the hell out of small 7Ah batteries, much much better than those SSG's I had that consumed just 200mA. Of course with those I would have to spend months to charge up a 200Ah battery, but with this selfoscillator it will be much faster. This setup does not selfstart, I have to wave a magnet near the coil core to make it start oscillating, but I found that if I place a high resistance resistor across the collector and base of the transistor, then it starts oscillating by itself when the power is turned ON. But I do not use that method for now. I found that the lower the base resistance, the smaller the oscillation frequency, but the bigger the amp draw. The transistors stay cool all the time, but my coil gets hot - up to 50 degree celsius, not too much, but still... The heat is coming from the coil core and is also heating up the coil wire. I attached a small fan that cools the coil for now, but I guess I have to use an air core coil, because the eddycurrents are responsible for the heat buildup in the core.
If you want, I can post the circuit that I am using.
Just wanted to share :)
Thanks,
Jetijs

ashtweth
11-12-2008, 01:47 AM
Hi Jetijs thanks for the report and sharing man, if those batteries hold charge you have done it, some time they don't and they appear to be charged and the spikes ruins them, but i think you already know this:) . Just keep this in mind when using these experimental chargers, our spikes ruined nearly ruined our battery once.

Are you going to run any load tests at the c20 charge rate on them?
Ow and yup would love to know what your doing, i can compare to ours to see if it will do any damage :)

Druide
11-12-2008, 03:26 AM
Hi,
I have some big 200Ah truck batteries that are laying around and do not hold a charge for long time. So I decides to make one of my quintfilar coils into a Bedini solid state oscillator. The circuit is very simple, one strand of wire is used for triggering and is leading to bases of four transistors though a 50Ohm resistor. The other end of the trigger strand is connected to the ground. Then we have the input positive lead is connected to one side of remaining wire strands and the other end of those strands is connected to the collector of the transistor, so that each strand has its own transistor. All the transistor emiters are then tied together and go to the negative line of the power supply. Each collector of those transistors has its own 1n4007 diode that delivers the inductive spike to the charging battery + terminal. The charging battery minus terminal is connected to the power supply positive line. Here is a picture:

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/thumbs/lrg-637-img_2822.JPG

The coil has five strands of 200 feet long wire that makes about 450-500 turns. The core is copper coated welding rods. There are no resistors or diodes connecting the transistor base with emitter, because when I used a diode, I could not get the thing to self oscillate. Anyway, it works just fine. Each transistor makes the circuit consume 0.5-1.3A depending on the input voltage and charging battery state. So all the transistors together consume 2-3A constantly. And this charges the hell out of small 7Ah batteries, much much better than those SSG's I had that consumed just 200mA. Of course with those I would have to spend months to charge up a 200Ah battery, but with this selfoscillator it will be much faster. This setup does not selfstart, I have to wave a magnet near the coil core to make it start oscillating, but I found that if I place a high resistance resistor across the collector and base of the transistor, then it starts oscillating by itself when the power is turned ON. But I do not use that method for now. I found that the lower the base resistance, the smaller the oscillation frequency, but the bigger the amp draw. The transistors stay cool all the time, but my coil gets hot - up to 50 degree celsius, not too much, but still... The heat is coming from the coil core and is also heating up the coil wire. I attached a small fan that cools the coil for now, but I guess I have to use an air core coil, because the eddycurrents are responsible for the heat buildup in the core.
If you want, I can post the circuit that I am using.
Just wanted to share :)
Thanks,
Jetijs

Hi Jetijs

Nice setup. What a good idea cutting these terminal strips to make connectors. Wich wire gauge have you used ? It seems that there's three paralleled diodes at the collectors, is it for higher currents handling ? I'd like to see your circuit schematic.

Thanks for sharing.

Michel

Shamus
11-12-2008, 04:46 AM
Nice build Jetijs. :) I'm also curious to know if you've done any load testing to see if you get more bang for your buck with this configuration. :thinking:

I'm sure you've noticed that the oscillations are faster without iron in your coil. I've done load testing with both core configurations and it seems there is very little difference in charging between the two. I think even the amp draw was similar--right around 400 mA. My SS is the cap dump version with 555 timer, trifilar coil 22 ga with each strand 100 ft.

Hoppy
11-12-2008, 08:46 AM
Hi Jetijs thanks for the report and sharing man, if those batteries hold charge you have done it, some time they don't and they appear to be charged and the spikes ruins them, but i think you already know this:) . Just keep this in mind when using these experimental chargers, our spikes ruined nearly ruined our battery once.

Are you going to run any load tests at the c20 charge rate on them?
Ow and yup would love to know what your doing, i can compare to ours to see if it will do any damage :)

Good point Ash. The way I check that a design is not going to damage a battery is with the Bedini '1 ohm test'. This checks that the current output is limited to under 1 Amp when the battery is removed and replaced with a 1 ohm resistor. A reading of less than 1 volt across the resistor will pass this test. When scoped across transistor collector / base junction the waveform should collapse - reduce substantially in amplitude when the 1 ohm resistor is connected.

The problem arises when the battery reaches its fully charged voltage of and is then overcharged by excessive current. It is very easy to overcharge and damage gell batteries with badly designed chargers. I have built many variations based on the Bedini monopole energiser and damaged plenty of batteries. It is easy to make a radiant type charger that can charge the hell out of a battery but a good design is a compromise between charge rate and the ability to condition a battery in order to give it long life life and good service.

Clive

dambit
11-12-2008, 08:46 AM
Hi Jetijs thanks for the report and sharing man, if those batteries hold charge you have done it, some time they don't and they appear to be charged and the spikes ruins them, but i think you already know this:) . Just keep this in mind when using these experimental chargers, our spikes ruined nearly ruined our battery once.

Are you going to run any load tests at the c20 charge rate on them?
Ow and yup would love to know what your doing, i can compare to ours to see if it will do any damage :)

Hi Ash,

Could you please elaborate a bit more on how the spikes nearly killed your battery?

Cheers,

Steve.

P.S. Jetijs, great pic and setup.

Jetijs
11-12-2008, 12:17 PM
Are you going to run any load tests at the c20 charge rate on them?


Hi Ash,
yes I am going to use my computer controlled battery tester to load the battery with a constant current. But after the first charge I will disassemble the coil and remove the welding rod core to get rid of the heat problem. Then I will continue the load tests.

Hi Jetijs
Wich wire gauge have you used ? It seems that there's three paralleled diodes at the collectors, is it for higher currents handling ?
Michel
Hi Michael :)
I used AWG21 wire for the strands of this coil, but for more current I guess you would need thicker wires.

Nice build Jetijs. :) I'm also curious to know if you've done any load testing to see if you get more bang for your buck with this configuration. :thinking:

I'm sure you've noticed that the oscillations are faster without iron in your coil. I've done load testing with both core configurations and it seems there is very little difference in charging between the two. I think even the amp draw was similar--right around 400 mA. My SS is the cap dump version with 555 timer, trifilar coil 22 ga with each strand 100 ft.

Hi Shamus,
No load tests so far, I started charging up the 200Ah battery just yesterday evening. Now the battery has gone up from 7.50V to 12.30V and still keeps climbing. I guess I will let it climb to about 13.5-14V to cold-boil some sulfate away, then let the battery settle and only then do the loading.
Higher frequency at the same current consumption would be great, it is an additional motive for me to switch to air core.
I noticed that now that the battery has gained some voltage, the current draw has increased a little bit - from 2.3A at start to 2.8A now. The transistors are still cool, but the coil core is hot.
Thanks :)

theremart
11-12-2008, 12:52 PM
Hi Ash,
yes I am going to use my computer controlled battery tester to load the battery with a constant current. But after the first charge I will disassemble the coil and remove the welding rod core to get rid of the heat problem. Then I will continue the load tests.



I have been testing my coil empty and I found it does not charge as well as with something in the core with my setup. Jetijs, you might consider removing the tape on the outside of the coil, this would allow the coil to release its heat better. you may also consider just using a few welding rods instead of filling it. I am finding that one can about tune the frequency of the charge by changing the core.

Just some thoughts, I hope your design works, because this is just what I am looking for my golf cart batteries.

Jetijs
11-12-2008, 01:17 PM
I have been testing my coil empty and I found it does not charge as well as with something in the core with my setup. Jetijs, you might consider removing the tape on the outside of the coil, this would allow the coil to release its heat better. you may also consider just using a few welding rods instead of filling it. I am finding that one can about tune the frequency of the charge by changing the core.

Just some thoughts, I hope your design works, because this is just what I am looking for my golf cart batteries.

Hi Mart :)
I already removed the tape from the coil. I also attached another fan to cool the coil better. Hope it will survive the first charge. Then I will change the core to a plastic tube. This will allow me to experiment with different core materials.
Thanks.

ashtweth
11-13-2008, 12:24 AM
Hi Ash,

Could you please elaborate a bit more on how the spikes nearly killed your battery?

Cheers,

Steve.

P.S. Jetijs, great pic and setup.

Hi dambit, it was our fault, We were using a 7aH battery and experimenting with a solid state charger that Clive built a while ago, he wanted us that he didn't think it was suitable for a 7Ah battery , i think from memory he was using a 35 ah one. The battery now wont get any higher then 12.8V for a charge. Still get some run time out of it but the point is if you don't know what wave form to get from these , and battery you could do some damage.

Ash

Hoppy
11-13-2008, 08:33 AM
Hi dambit, it was our fault, We were using a 7aH battery and experimenting with a solid state charger that Clive built a while ago, he wanted us that he didn't think it was suitable for a 7Ah battery , i think from memory he was using a 35 ah one. The battery now wont get any higher then 12.8V for a charge. Still get some run time out of it but the point is if you don't know what wave form to get from these , and battery you could do some damage.

Ash

Hi Ash

John Bedini has always stressed that its important not to over current charge with high voltage spikes as this will 'smash' the battery in time. A 7A/Hr gel battery is fine on a small wheel charger like the ones specified for learning but not on a powerful rotor or SS energiser.

If the final battery voltage can be monitored so that the charger cuts-off when the terminal voltage reaches say 15V then even small batteries should be OK on big chargers if they are well conditioned to start with. Otherwise, if they are not conditioned, pumping high current into them will just push up the terminal voltage fast and cut-off the charger. Battery conditioning needs to be a staged process starting gently until the internal resistance drops to allow an increasing charge current. A variable voltage supply to the energiser helps to regulate the charging current with solid state chargers.

I have learnt not to allow my batteries (once conditioned) to be regularly charged to a high terminal voltage when using Bedini charging methods. This is only needed occasionally to equalise the cell voltages. My normal fully charged float voltage is within the battery manufacturers specification at around 13.8V. The final terminal voltage for my golf cart type batteries is limited to 15.3V.

Clive

theremart
11-13-2008, 01:04 PM
Hi Ash

John Bedini has always stressed that its important not to over current charge with high voltage spikes as this will 'smash' the battery in time. A 7A/Hr gel battery is fine on a small wheel charger like the ones specified for learning but not on a powerful rotor or SS energiser.

I have learnt not to allow my batteries (once conditioned) to be regularly charged to a high terminal voltage when using Bedini charging methods. This is only needed occasionally to equalise the cell voltages. My normal fully charged float voltage is within the battery manufacturers specification at around 13.8V. The final terminal voltage for my golf cart type batteries is limited to 15.3V.

Clive


Interesting Clive, my manufactured cut off voltage is

"Following discharge, constant current charge the CR-225 battery at 25 amperes until the battery voltage measures 2.42
volts per cell (7.26 volts open circuit voltage)."

So for 2 batteries it would be 14.52. Interesting your cut off voltages is 15.3, I have found that for me to get the most out of my 12 amp hour batteries I have to raise the cut off voltage to 16V.

It is so nice to be able to talk with someone else who have Golf cart batteries :) Thanks for sharing Clive.

theremart
11-13-2008, 01:08 PM
Hi,

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/thumbs/lrg-637-img_2822.JPG


Thanks,
Jetijs



I have looked hard at your circuit agian, and I noticed

1. You are using multiple resistors..... I have not seen this done before.

2. Multiple diodes, which I have seen.

3. No solder connections but using the screw connectors, inovative.

5. Looks like you are using brass solder right on the diode comming out of the transistor to charging battery?

Looking forward to your load test.

Jetijs
11-13-2008, 01:36 PM
Hi Mart :)
1. I use multiple resistors because one resistor (2w) at the needed resistance gets very hot. Multiple higher resistance resistors in parallel gives me the same low resistance, but they can handle the heat with ease. The overall resistance of this resistor array is about 50 Ohms.
2. I could use also just one diode per transistor, this should work just fine since there is almost no current in the inductuve spike, but just to be sure I am using three 1n4007 diodes in parallel.
3. It is hard to solder a connection to a 2n3055 transistor collector (case), because to do so you need to heat up almost the whole transistor and this can damage it, that is why I am using small bolts to attach the connections to the case. Also in an event of transistor death, it is now much more easy to change the bad transistor out.
4. Yes, those are brass press-on connectors that I am using to connect the diodes with the transistor case, for better holding the diodes are also soldered together with the brass connector.

Today the voltage has climbed up to 12.55V (from 12.25v yesterday evening). I have noticed that lead acid batteries are charging up fast from anywhere below 10v to about 12v, then the charhing gets slower till the voltage reaches about 12.6-12.7V, after that the voltage starts to go up faster :)

Today I will make an air core coil and replace the current one. Also I have another 4 strand coil form a SSG that I will also use on this charger connecting the outputs of both coils together. This should increase the amp draw to about 4.5-5A and the big 200Ah battery should charge up faster :)

Hoppy
11-13-2008, 02:19 PM
Interesting Clive, my manufactured cut off voltage is

"Following discharge, constant current charge the CR-225 battery at 25 amperes until the battery voltage measures 2.42
volts per cell (7.26 volts open circuit voltage)."

So for 2 batteries it would be 14.52. Interesting your cut off voltages is 15.3, I have found that for me to get the most out of my 12 amp hour batteries I have to raise the cut off voltage to 16V.

It is so nice to be able to talk with someone else who have Golf cart batteries :) Thanks for sharing Clive.

Mart

My fully charged cell voltage is 2.58V.

More capacity can be got from a battery by taking the charge voltage higher than the manufacturers specification which is a 'safe' limit. This should not be necessary using the Bedini charging method because long term conditioning should automatically increase the battery capacity over conventional DC charging methods by lowering internal resistance. My understanding is that John Bedini takes his golf cart type batteries up to 15.3V. I have found that pushing a battery to a higher final charge voltage increases the surface charge, so that a little more capacity can be gained even with a unconditioned battery. I would say that once a battery rests at 13V or above about 4hrs after disconnection from the energiser on a regular basis, it can be considered to be reasonably well conditioned. I have found that the better conditioned a battery is, the higher the resting voltage will be.

Clive

dambit
11-14-2008, 04:00 AM
Hi Jetijs,

I have modified my circuit to be solid state similar to yours and it works very well. :thumbsup: My coil is a little bigger and I have five transistors, but that is the only difference. I have attached a pic of the circuit. All I had to do was remove the diode between the emitter and base. My trigger resitance had to be increased to about 600 ohms for the circuit to be at it's most efficient, but it still passes the one ohm test.

I am using this to charge two 135 Ah batteries in a 24V bank. Seems to be working quite well.

Cheers,

Steve.

P.S. The neons are well used!!:rofl:

Jetijs
11-14-2008, 02:22 PM
Hi Steve,
A nice setup you got there. I am glad that it works well for you. Thank you for sharing.
What is your coil specs? And how much current does all the circuit draw?

Here is the circuit I am using:

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/shema%20(2).GIF

mrbreau
11-14-2008, 03:02 PM
Hi Mart :)
(snip)
3. It is hard to solder a connection to a 2n3055 transistor collector (case), because to do so you need to heat up almost the whole transistor and this can damage it, that is why I am using small bolts to attach the connections to the case. Also in an event of transistor death, it is now much more easy to change the bad transistor out.
(snip)


Hello Jetijs? Are you aware that there is a socket for TO-3 transistors? For very little money it is a lot easier, for me, to change out a transistor if it fails since there is NO soldering TO the transistor.

Here are a couple pictures of one setup I use for the Bedini. I think, repeat think, that I got these for less than a dollar each. I'd like to note how much EASIER it is to connect the transistor to whatever combination of components you want. BTW, I have since added a pot to this circuit. These are easily replaceable modules I've come up with for multiple coils. It is so much easier and quicker for me to makeup and redo the systems I'm building.

You can fine the part # (4667) here; http://www.keyelco.com/pdfs/M55p103.pdf
AND, they are $1.77 per.

I hope this helps you some.

Warren
..

************************************************** *****

"When a man's knowledge is not in order; the more of it he has, and the greater will be his confusion." Herbert Spencer

dambit
11-14-2008, 03:50 PM
Hi Steve,
A nice setup you got there. I am glad that it works well for you. Thank you for sharing.
What is your coil specs? And how much current does all the circuit draw?

Here is the circuit I am using:

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/shema%20(2).GIF

Hi Jetijs,

My coil is spool is just over 4" long with a 3 1/2" flange. The core is 3/4" in diameter. Not sure how many turns as I just told my coil guy to fill it, but it has five power winds (23 SWG) and a trigger (25 SWG). It is one of four coils for this enegizer.

I have tuned the circuit to draw 1.15 amps. This seems to be the best area to be in for charging larger batteries. So far. As I know of no exact proceedure for tuning a circuit I have got it to within a ballpark and then set it to what "feels" ok. Sounds odd, but that's how I've done it. :D

My scematic is the same as yours except I am running off 24V and have 100 ohm resistors on each base along with the 600 ohm main resistor. (which at the moment is a 1K 5W pot)

Cheers,

Steve.

dambit
11-15-2008, 02:10 PM
Hi Guys,

Just posting some pics of my new solid state charger I built today. It's designed to charge dry cell batteries. You know, AA, AAA, C, 9V, etc. The input is a 12V power adapter I had spare and the coil is a single bifilar with approximately 350 turns.

I have yet to do some propper testing with it, but I put a 9V battery in it tonight which was down to 8V and in ten minutes it was charged. Three hours later it is still sitting at 9V. Early signs are good. I think it will simply be a matter of working out how long each type of battery takes, or just monitoring them as they go.

Jaycar had run out of AA cradles and panel volt meters, so I will add them when I can. I think I will also add a small amp meter for the input so that I can tell its running. I would add a light but sometimes the coil does not self oscillate when I switch it on, so that would be no good. Thats the problem with the solid state machines, there is no visual cues that it's on, and the frequency of this is so high that I have trouble hearing the coil.

Cheers,

Steve.

Jetijs
11-15-2008, 04:01 PM
Nice setup Steve :)
I rewired my coil on an air core spool. It does not start to oscillate on its own, I need to put an iron core in and magnetize it. When it runs, it consumes about 3A at 12V. I can turn the voltage down to about 3V and it still will draw about 2A, but the charging also goes down. If I put some metal in the coil as a core, the amp draw decreases and the frequency goes down, so does the charging. The coil gets warm, but not hot. So I guess that this is way better than with previous coil. Now the setup is consuming the same amount of current as before, but the coil is working on higher frequency.
Thanks,
Jetijs.

dambit
11-15-2008, 04:16 PM
Hi Jetijs,

Thanks. Yeah I went with the air core on mine. Because I'm only powering one transistor it doesn't even get warm. I think the 5w resistor is a bit of overkill :rofl: , but it won't burn out. When I had it hooked up to the scope each pulse was 60 uS , :eek: bloody fast!!

Cheers

Sephiroth
11-15-2008, 06:26 PM
Jetijs

You mentioned earlier that the heat coming from the coil is from the core. Were your welding rods electrically insulated from each other? That sounds like heat being generated by eddy currents.

Jetijs
11-15-2008, 09:09 PM
Hi Seph :)
It might be that the welding rods are not isolated from each other, because I just stuffed them into a plastic pipe and poured some epoxy resin to fill the remaining space. Anyway, the core was heating up very much, but now that I am using air core, I noticed that the coil does heat up also to about 50 degree celsius. Maybe there is too much current flowing through the windings, but I don't think that 0,7A is much for a gauge 21 wire. Or is it?

Anyway, I made another coil form the wire I had. This one has six strands of the same gauge 21 wire. The turn count is about 2x smaller than in the first coil (did not have enough wire). I only had three more 2n3055 transistors left so I used them all, but I did not want any unused strands of wire so I connected three strands in series for the trigger winding and used the remaining strands as power windings. This other coil consumed about 2A. It oscillates at much higher frequency. The output of both coils is connected together and goes into the charging battery positive terminal. Here is a pic:

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/thumbs/lrg-639-selfoscillator_001.jpg

At first I used five 1k 1W resistors in parallel as the base resistance. But this was no good because the resistors heated up to 90 degree celsius and I cut the power. I replaced them with higher number of higher resistance resistors so that they would disipate heat better, but they also did heat up very much. So I used the heavy stuff :D

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/thumbs/lrg-640-selfoscillator_002.jpg

Those are 25w resistors and together they make a base resistance of about 300 Ohms. And still they heat up to 40 degree celisus. But I guess that's better than 90 degree :D But it seems that there is much current flowing through the trigger winding. The coil itself also heats up to about 40 degree.

I need to play a bit more with this circuit, in my opinion this much heat is not very good, although it charges the battery very well.
Thanks,
Jetijs

theremart
11-15-2008, 09:27 PM
I have put some speaker wire on order, I am wondering how much different it will be in comparison to standard magnet wire, 18 gauge wire was recommended in the the old document of the SSG group, gonna give that a try.

I was thinking why do we have to wind the coil so close together? Why not wind it spread out over a longer spool so that it will have more room to release the heat.... I am not sure if this would be good for storing the magnetic field which collapses.... But I may try this as well.

Also considered why do all the winds have to be on the same coil..... could one not simply use multiple spools and have a single bifilar coil being the trigger?

Just some ideas....


I put the 2 golf cart batteries I had on conventional charge at 8 amps and they shot up to 14.51 V. Which is what they are supposed to do as brand new batteries. Previously I could not get the voltage over 13.80 V It seems one does need at least 3 amps.

I let them set they have dropped down to 12.84V after 4 hours, so very nice.

Jetijs
11-15-2008, 09:30 PM
Just reconfigured the new coil so that there is only one trand of wire used as the trigger wire instead of three strands in series. Now I needed to decrease the base resistance to get about the same amp draw and this seems to solve the problem. Now The whole circuit is consuming 5A at 11V. I guess that three strands in series as the trigger winding did induce higer voltage into the trigger winding and this made the resistors to disipate more heat. I guess that also a smaller gauge wire would be advisible for the trigger winding.
Any thoughts?
BTW, Mart, what capacity in amp hours does your golf cart batteries have?

theremart
11-15-2008, 09:39 PM
BTW, Mart, what capacity in amp hours does your golf cart batteries have?

200 amp hours.... is what the golf cart batteries have as written.

I think I will start to load test them after having conventional charge.

Have you load tested this new method yet? Sounds like you are getting it stable at least.

Jetijs
11-15-2008, 09:52 PM
No. No load tests so far. But will do them soon :)
Thank you.
Jetijs

Jetijs
11-20-2008, 11:30 AM
Hi all. I have made some load tests, but only three of them on each battery (I have two batteries). It takes about 10-12 hours to charge up one of these 200Ah batteries to 13.8V. The resting voltage of the first battery after the first charge was 12.81V and I loaded it with 4A with my battery tester. As soon as the load was connected, the voltage went down to 12V and only then stabilized and started to drop slowly to 11.4V (cutoff voltage). The tested capacity was 40Ah. After the third charge, the battery restring voltage was already 12.94 and now with the same load the voltage did not drop to 12V at the start, but instead dropped to about 12.6V and stabilized at that voltage and went down slow after that. The tested capacity now was 41Ah. Not much gain, but at least the battery is starting to function as it should. The resting voltages on the other battery also went up after three charges. Will continue the load tests and inform you.
Thank,
Jetijs

theremart
11-20-2008, 01:35 PM
Hi all. I have made some load tests, but only three of them on each battery (I have two batteries). It takes about 10-12 hours to charge up one of these 200Ah batteries to 13.8V. The resting voltage of the first battery after the first charge was 12.81V and I loaded it with 4A with my battery tester. As soon as the load was connected, the voltage went down to 12V and only then stabilized and started to drop slowly to 11.4V (cutoff voltage). The tested capacity was 40Ah. After the third charge, the battery restring voltage was already 12.94 and now with the same load the voltage did not drop to 12V at the start, but instead dropped to about 12.6V and stabilized at that voltage and went down slow after that. The tested capacity now was 41Ah. Not much gain, but at least the battery is starting to function as it should. The resting voltages on the other battery also went up after three charges. Will continue the load tests and inform you.
Thank,
Jetijs


After over 3-4 months of conditioning at least, and adding additive to the batteries, "Charge-it" I was able to charge the two golf cart batteries to the full voltage as a brand new battery. 14.45 V.

Load test from these two batteries, Golf carts batteries can go down to 10.5 Volts I am told without hurting them but I went down to 11.5 V.
I got 84 Amp hours from these batteries for this voltage range.

http://i33.tinypic.com/1zpr0ic.jpg

Jetijs
11-20-2008, 02:10 PM
Great results :thumbsup:
I guess that if you go down to 10.5V you would get at least 150Ah out of them.
BTW, how do they determinate the battery capacity on such batteries. I mean if they are rated 200Ah, how did they test it, did they discharge the battery fully? And to what voltage?

theremart
11-20-2008, 03:07 PM
Great results :thumbsup:
I guess that if you go down to 10.5V you would get at least 150Ah out of them.
BTW, how do they determinate the battery capacity on such batteries. I mean if they are rated 200Ah, how did they test it, did they discharge the battery fully? And to what voltage?

I do not know as the spec sheet does not tell the test method used to get the 225 amp hour rating of the battery.

I know for my 12 amp hour battery it was a full discharge.

I have found that Windmill / solar cell groups don't like to let the golf cart batteries drop below 12.V However the radient charge may let you get away with much more.

I have found that the lower the amp hour pull on the battery the more amp hours you will get out.

As you note this test was over 40 hours in duration, :)

Jetijs
11-20-2008, 03:20 PM
Yes, I saw the test duration. 40 hours is a bit too long for me, I mean if you test the battery with this kind of battery tester, you can't do anything else with the computer that uses the battery tester. I don't have a spare computer that I can use just for battery tests. Also, many things can happen in a test that long, from computer crash to power fluctuations that makes the computer restart. I also think that you have to discharge the battery to 0V to get the rated amp hours, because I have never went lower than 10.5V and I gave never seen the rated amp hours, even using new batteries, the tested amp hours are about 70% of the rated ones at best.
:cheers:

hh1341
11-21-2008, 10:20 PM
You are right Mart.

The Renaissance Charger takes the battery down to 8 volts when it is rejuvenating a battery.(Bedini)

It automatically cycles the battery between full charge and 8 volts until the load test does not result in an amp hour increase.(radiant conditioning)

Carl

Introducting the Renaissance RC-30A12 & RC-15A24 Commercial Battery Rejuvenators (http://www.r-charge.com/rc-30a12.html)

hh1341
11-21-2008, 10:24 PM
BTW.....

The solar guys don't like to take their batteries down more than 50% of their capacity.

ie.......they don't take more than 100 amp hours out of a 200 AH battery.

Carl

theremart
11-22-2008, 12:50 AM
I had an idea which I may try over the next week...
I was thinking of taking the imhotep relay and using it for the trigger for the solid state battery charger ( all the rest of the transistors ). I was wondering what others think of this idea... I am not sure I can get it to trigger at a high rate but thought I might give it a go.

hh1341
11-22-2008, 02:48 AM
you can't do anything else with the computer that uses the battery tester.
:

Jetijs,

The CBA II, does not tie up your computer when running a load test.
You can multi-task.

Carl

theremart
11-22-2008, 03:23 AM
Speaker coil constructed, 100' of 18 gauge speaker wire, and about 150 turns 23 guage wire near the center for my trigger coil. Will try hooking it up tomorrow this should be fun :)

Jetijs
11-22-2008, 11:17 AM
Hi Carl :)
good to know that, but the CBA battery testers are not cheap and I don't think I will buy another one now :)

Anyway, seems that the charger works as it should:

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/battery_tests.jpg

The first two tests are somewhat random. But at the third test you can see that the battery is finally starting to behave as it should and the discharge curve becomes like it should be. In first and second test the starting voltage was 12.02, in the third test the starting voltage was 12.75 and at the last test it was 13.01. Those are resting voltages. But also the charging voltages are going up, for the last charge took the battery up to 14.07V, I wasn't able to do this before. Looks good so far :)
Will inform you on my updates :)

Jetijs
11-22-2008, 03:29 PM
Heres an update:

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/battery_tests2.jpg

This is the second battery that is being conditioned. It is also a 200 Ah battery. You can see that the conditioning process is going very similar to the first battery.
Thanks :)

dambit
11-22-2008, 04:55 PM
Wow, :suprise: those batteries must be pretty worn to be that far below rated capacity. This will be a good test. :thumbsup:

theremart
11-22-2008, 05:26 PM
:suprise: :suprise:

I put 100ft of 18 guage speaker wire on a spool about 1/2 way thru I wound about 150 turns of 23 gauge wire. It is now turning a wheel of my ssg.

Will try 24V on it next.... this is kool!

theremart
11-22-2008, 06:27 PM
YIKES

Burnt out my 47 ohm resistor, then burnt out 4 47 ohms in parallel. Then burnt out my 5 watt 100 ohm resistor ....

Wow...

gmeat
11-22-2008, 06:38 PM
YIKES

Burnt out my 47 ohm resistor, then burnt out 4 47 ohms in parallel. Then burnt out my 5 watt 100 ohm resistor ....

Wow...



Hi Mart,


Try starting it and stop the wheel as I think that may be interfering.And up the ohms on the resistor.Just an idea,Let me know if this helps.


-Gary

theremart
11-22-2008, 06:47 PM
Hi Mart,


Try starting it and stop the wheel as I think that may be interfering.And up the ohms on the resistor.Just an idea,Let me know if this helps.


-Gary

Ok will up the ohms, tried putting in a choke, but only stopped it from working, tried put in my break like, it glowed dimly but still smoke comming out of resistor.

24 V is sooo much fun! lol

theremart
11-22-2008, 07:05 PM
Ok will up the ohms, tried putting in a choke, but only stopped it from working, tried put in my break like, it glowed dimly but still smoke comming out of resistor.

24 V is sooo much fun! lol

Ok resistors very warm, 5 (550 ohm resistors in parallel), 1 100 ohm 5 W and the brake lite bulb in series it is working, but I want to find a better way of doing this without the resistors being too hot to touch... May go up to 600 ohm resistors....

The charge rate looks real good :)

theremart
11-22-2008, 07:30 PM
The ssg was pulling 2 amps ! :) The coil is cool no heat there at all nor were the insides even warm... The target batteries shot from 12.5 V to 14.8 V in about 20 min....

Me want more! :)

I added 4 550 ohm resistors they are now warm to the touch...

Sephiroth
11-22-2008, 08:01 PM
lol... you seem to be attracting electrical fires Mart! Play safe :)

Do you know the rpm you have with the new coil? and number of magnets on the rotor :D

Jetijs
11-22-2008, 08:01 PM
Mart, what exactly are you doing? Can you post a schematic or something?
Thanks :)

theremart
11-22-2008, 09:14 PM
Mart, what exactly are you doing? Can you post a schematic or something?
Thanks :)

I am buying myself another transistor with heat sync. :) Guess I will put a 2n3055 on..


Source batteries 2 13 amp hour batteries at 24 V

Target batteries 2 13 amp hour batteries at 24 V

I just ran this for another 20 min target batteries shot up to 17V :eek: :eek: was pulling 2.5 amps source batteries one was at 12.60 the other was at 12.35 V ( under load of 2.5 amps ). Then the transistor got hot and died.

I am using a standard SSG with multi diode output, multi resistors on the
trigger coil. I have not seen this sort of charging with the 13 amp batteries ever. Hope I can get this stable.

One other thing I am doing is using the daftmans setup with a reed switch on the trigger coil. After I hooked that up charging went thru the roof.

Going to have a fun week I have the whole week off! :)

Also I am using 18guage speaker wire 100 feet of it, The coil never gets hot. but my circuit sure does.

Sephiroth
11-22-2008, 09:19 PM
hey mart... how many transistors are you using? If you use multiple transistors in parellel (about 10 should do it ;) ) it should bring the current through each componant back to a "normal" level... never tried multiple transistors on a single strand before but it should work.

theremart
11-22-2008, 09:22 PM
lol... you seem to be attracting electrical fires Mart! Play safe :)

Do you know the rpm you have with the new coil? and number of magnets on the rotor :D

I did not test rpm I am guessing about 6 - 700 rpm. magnets 4 monster neos.

160lb pull.

theremart
11-22-2008, 09:43 PM
I do have both of the speaker wires tied together in parallel .... Think I will try it with only one :)

theremart
11-22-2008, 11:01 PM
Went to the 2n3055 not as much kick, but very stable at 24V. Both target batteries rose to 13.25 from 12.89 in 15 min. Think I will hunt down another one of the transistors I had before and try that again.

Monday hope to do more tests if it is stable I will post a video soon.

Shamus
11-23-2008, 03:19 AM
F. me, I just spent the last 15 mins. typing out a reply only to accidentally press the 'back' button. :(

Anyway Mart, what kind of load are you able to get from your batteries with such short charging? I've found standing voltages produced this way can be misleading. ;)

dambit
11-23-2008, 12:02 PM
Hi all,

Jetijs, I am wondering if the wave that is produced from this solid state method is as effective as the "h-wave" seen on other solid state setups. I have notice that on small general batteries it works perfectly, but on larger batteries (car batteries etc) it takes quite a while to reach a decent voltage. (compared to the non solid state setup). :confused:

Last night I discharged a car battery I have at 2 amps for 9 hrs 40min. After 2 hours rest it was sitting at 12.41V (not bad for a battery that was to be tossed out last month :thumbsup: ). I have been charging the battery for 7 hrs now with my 5 transistor coil at a fairly high draw, but not much above normal. The battery has only just reached 13.04V. I will let it go until it will not go any more, and then repeat the process. Only the next charge will be with my regular magnet setup. Should be a good comparison of the two wave types and there effectiveness.

Cheers,

Steve.

theremart
11-23-2008, 12:12 PM
F. me, I just spent the last 15 mins. typing out a reply only to accidentally press the 'back' button. :(

Anyway Mart, what kind of load are you able to get from your batteries with such short charging? I've found standing voltages produced this way can be misleading. ;)

You are correct about being misleading.... I don't know for how long I could sustain this charging rate. Monday I do hope to do more tests with the 2n3055. However for the batteries to stay up to 12.30 under a 2 amp load is impressive to me. Yes I am way over the c20 rating of the battery, but it sure was fun lol :)

I thought about it some more, and the batteries that were charged were on the solid state charger for about 2 days. before where they reached a top voltage of 15.3 V. It seems from past experience that directly after I use the solid state charger, and put the batter on a wheel charger the top voltage goes up higher. So when they went up to 17V this could be simply because the battery was in great shape to receive charge. But... two of the batteries were not on the SS charger and they went up to 14V as I recall, which is still very impressive to me.

I could not sustain this charging, I looked at the data sheet for my transistor and it says the max amps is 1.5 amps peak for my transistor. So it is no wonder that I cooked it.

Jetijs
11-23-2008, 01:37 PM
Hi all,

Jetijs, I am wondering if the wave that is produced from this solid state method is as effective as the "h-wave" seen on other solid state setups. I have notice that on small general batteries it works perfectly, but on larger batteries (car batteries etc) it takes quite a while to reach a decent voltage. (compared to the non solid state setup). :confused:

Last night I discharged a car battery I have at 2 amps for 9 hrs 40min. After 2 hours rest it was sitting at 12.41V (not bad for a battery that was to be tossed out last month :thumbsup: ). I have been charging the battery for 7 hrs now with my 5 transistor coil at a fairly high draw, but not much above normal. The battery has only just reached 13.04V. I will let it go until it will not go any more, and then repeat the process. Only the next charge will be with my regular magnet setup. Should be a good comparison of the two wave types and there effectiveness.

Cheers,

Steve.
Hi teve :)
I have not hooked up a scope to see the wave, but I will do that. My batteries are charging up higher one each charging cycle. For example, on the fourth charging cycle, the battery went up to 14.01V but on the fifth charge cycle it already reached 14.11V And it's getting better and better. Also the tested capacity increased bit by bit after each cycle :)
Good luck!

Jetijs
11-23-2008, 02:18 PM
Ok, here is a waveform on one of my transistors (across emitter and collector). The charging battery is attached.

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/waveform_010.jpg

That little spike that you can see, is probably there because the battery is not in the best shape yet and can not absorb all the radiant spike. I have no good batteries around (they all are in use) to test if a good battery will have a smaller spike. Anyway, the waveform looks good, the classical h form :)

Shamus
11-24-2008, 05:15 AM
Just for fun (and you guys messing around with higher amp draw) I decided to lower the ohms on my triggers on the 4PMP (OK, it's not SS, so slightly off-topic) from 1K down to 390. The amp draw doubled (from 390mA to 800mA) and it seemed to push batteries up quite quickly. My gel cells which usually take a long time to get over 13V shot up to well over 16V and stood at around 12.8V after ~20 minutes of charging. Of course when I loaded them up, the voltage sank like a stone down to 12.4V (my usual load termination voltage) in a matter of seconds.

I did do a few tests with a six hour charge time and the load times were longer but seemed to be proportional to the charging I got at the lower amp draw. :thinking: There's still some surprises here it would seem. :)

At any rate, I keep coming back to the idea that every drawing that John Bedini has put out shows at least two batteries on the charging side connected in parallel. Which, as I'm just now coming to realize, changes the impedance of the system. :) Then again, John has said that the machine doesn't care if there's one battery on the back end or four and I can't help but wonder why nobody has reported any success replicating this phenomenon. :thinking: I would do it with my two 7Ah gel cells but one is damaged from overzealous load testing on my part. :( Perhaps it's time to bite the bullet and buy a few identical tractor batteries. ;)

The other thing I notice is that the back end batteries on those drawings don't have any diodes to prevent backflow from one battery leaking into its paralleled neighbor. This would imply that the batteries are well matched to each other and in similar condition. :thinking: So much to think about. ;)

At any rate, this long winded message is really about impedance (doesn't it always come back to impedance? ;)) since I noticed that my 1000 MCA battery seems to respond better to the lower trigger resistance/higher amp draw--again, it seems to point to impedance as being a critical factor to success with the machine. I'm still struggling to understand it all, though, since John says it's the spike and not current that does the charging (and putting a 1 ohm resistor in the charge position and measuring the voltage drop and current through it seems to bear this out). But somehow pushing more current through the coil does something to the charging--creates higher spikes? I don't know since I don't have an oscilloscope to measure such things. It seems counterintuitive since you don't need a lot of current to get the spike, just a fast off switching.

Much to ponder. :thinking:

mlindeblom
11-24-2008, 09:10 PM
Circuits and related methods for ... - Google Patents (http://www.google.com/patents?id=vyWqAAAAEBAJ&dq=0129250)

The above patent is well worth looking at.

Maybe it will resolve the page 46 FEG circuit objections.

Shamus
11-24-2008, 10:43 PM
Actually, I thought I addressed that elephant in the room already. But just in case that wasn't enough, I believe you're talking about figure 4 on sheet 2 of that particular patent application. ;)

Yeah, I don't understand the ferocity of some people to revealing the information on that page--after all, it's an idea and ideas are easily shared. *shrug*

dambit
11-24-2008, 11:40 PM
Ok, here is a waveform on one of my transistors (across emitter and collector). The charging battery is attached.

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/waveform_010.jpg

That little spike that you can see, is probably there because the battery is not in the best shape yet and can not absorb all the radiant spike. I have no good batteries around (they all are in use) to test if a good battery will have a smaller spike. Anyway, the waveform looks good, the classical h form :)

Hi Jetijs,

Is that running on 12V?

You are right, that is a "h", and that is the same wave that I get, but I thought the one in the dvd was the shape we are after.

Cheers,

Steve.

Jetijs
11-24-2008, 11:58 PM
Hi Steve :)
Yes, that waveform is when running at 12v.
What do you mean with the "waveform from the dvd" ? What should it look like?

ren
11-25-2008, 12:49 AM
Dambit, I think you may be reffering to the cap pulsers waveform, as seen in the FEG book. The "H" wave form is the waveform the coil produces. The cap pulser waveform looks a little different. Specify which waveform you are reffering to.

Jet, does the SS setup you have there charge like the SG? Or is it collected into a cap before it returns to the battery?

Thats still quite a spike with the battery attached, my spike almost disappears when the charging battery is attached... YOu may be right about it being related to the condition of the battery. Interesting to see if the spike changes at all as your batteries get better

Shamus
11-25-2008, 02:15 AM
If I were the betting kind, I would bet that those spikes will diminish as the batteries are conditioned. Right now I'm in the process of trying to revive a 17Ah gel cell and I've got neons lit up like Xmas trees. :D If the battery can't take it, it has to go somewhere...

dambit
11-25-2008, 05:24 AM
Hi Guys,

I have attached a pic of the h wave in the dvd. Feel free to remove it if I'm not supposed to post it. (there everyehere on the net anyway);)

I have also attached a pic of mine Jetijs running on 24 volts (ss). Now I understand that solid state will give a different wave, so I guess my question is, does the shape of the wave matter or is it just the spike that's important?

I have also attached a pic of the wave I got when I accidently put one of my old setups into solid state while taking a measurement with a multimeter. I was not able to reproduce the condition after I changed the setup. It was a single bifilar coil running on 12V

Cheers,

Steve.

Aaron
11-25-2008, 05:46 AM
This isn't exact, BUT

This is my 2000 turn trifilar self-oscillating

WITHOUT a battery or cap on the output.

AND

WITHOUT a battery or cap on the input

AND

WITHOUT any earth rod or antenna connected to any part of the circuit

The transistor switches by itself

http://www.esmhome.org/library/john-bedini/oscillatorselfrunning.jpg

Jetijs
11-25-2008, 12:06 PM
Ren, the wavform I posted is from a setup without any cap pulser setup, just many basic SS outputs go into the battery in parellel. John Bedini somewhere in the dvd said that if you got enough coils and spikes, you don't even need a cap pulser setup.

theremart
11-25-2008, 12:42 PM
Hi Guys,

I have attached a pic of the h wave in the dvd. Feel free to remove it if I'm not supposed to post it. (there everyehere on the net anyway);)

I have also attached a pic of mine Jetijs running on 24 volts (ss). Now I understand that solid state will give a different wave, so I guess my question is, does the shape of the wave matter or is it just the spike that's important?

I have also attached a pic of the wave I got when I accidently put one of my old setups into solid state while taking a measurement with a multimeter. I was not able to reproduce the condition after I changed the setup. It was a single bifilar coil running on 12V

Cheers,

Steve.


Some of the things you must consider when looking at the h wave form on the video is that is a very special configuration generating that "h" wave. He has a magnet configuration that he was unwilling to share, as well he is using special triggering, and 10 Amps of power to generate that wave.

So our configuration may not match the big machine's because we don't have all the parts of the puzzle. As well, maybe his scope is far more accurate than ours for showing the detail of the spike.

Just some thoughts... But I do feel in the dark as to know what target is... you sorta have to feel around and do the trial and error.

theremart
11-25-2008, 12:46 PM
Dambit, I think you may be reffering to the cap pulsers waveform, as seen in the FEG book. The "H" wave form is the waveform the coil produces. The cap pulser waveform looks a little different. Specify which waveform you are reffering to.

Jet, does the SS setup you have there charge like the SG? Or is it collected into a cap before it returns to the battery?

Thats still quite a spike with the battery attached, my spike almost disappears when the charging battery is attached... YOu may be right about it being related to the condition of the battery. Interesting to see if the spike changes at all as your batteries get better

I bet if we used different types of caps we would get different types of spikes. The internal resistance of batteries are very different from one another.

I was thinking the big advantage of using the caps is that you do not have to use an inverter when swapping from the charging side to the primary..

Love this conversation :heartbeat:

Jetijs
11-25-2008, 12:48 PM
Didn't John say that he uses some big neo magnets glued together on his 12pole machine? Sounds like a superpole configuration that Kevin and Aaron posted on another thread where two magnet N poles are glued together pressing against each other and what comes out from the sides is a scalar N pole. Maybe he uses this config to get a wave like that, but that is just a speculation :thinking:

theremart
11-25-2008, 01:23 PM
This isn't exact, BUT

This is my 2000 turn trifilar self-oscillating
WITHOUT a battery or cap on the output.
WITHOUT a battery or cap on the input
WITHOUT any earth rod or antenna connected to any part of the circuit
The transistor switches by itself


Err... would not the circuit have a ground from the scope, and the coil act as an inductor?

I have notice a similar wave if I don't have ground hooked up to the circuit running normally.

Thanks for sharing.

Sephiroth
11-25-2008, 01:32 PM
Some of the things you must consider when looking at the h wave form on the video is that is a very special configuration generating that "h" wave. He has a magnet configuration that he was unwilling to share, as well he is using special triggering, and 10 Amps of power to generate that wave.

So our configuration may not match the big machine's because we don't have all the parts of the puzzle. As well, maybe his scope is far more accurate than ours for showing the detail of the spike.

Just some thoughts... But I do feel in the dark as to know what target is... you sorta have to feel around and do the trial and error.

hi mart,

from what I remember from the dvd it looked like he used the original superpole configuration, though he did say he made the magnets himself :)

and since we are talking about the voltage spike I'll just throw this in :D there will be a significant spike if you are using recovery coils with a single diode instead of a bridge rectifier. I believe that it occurs because when the coil energizes voltage is induced in the recovery coil in the opposite polarity to the supplied voltage but current is blocked by the charging diode so the recovery coil acts as a capacitor. negative charge builds up at the top of the recovery coil, and positive charge at the bottom. Then when the field collapses there is nothing seperating these charges and so they crash through the recovery coil and this appears a voltage spike in the primary coil.


This may be an improvement over the ssg configuration as it results in a sharper gradient when the coil discharges.

the spike may also be present with a bridge rectifier on the recovery coil since the inductance of the recovery coil will resist the change of polarity and so the collapsing field will create a spike in the primary before the current in the recovery has changed direction.

dambit
11-25-2008, 01:43 PM
I don't think they would be neos, JB has always said that neos are too powerful and they saturate the core.. I had a close look at the latest dvd and the colour of them suggests that they are ceramic. Could always be wrong though. ;) I thought that it just had a common trigger. One wind triggering all of the circuits.

I would like to get my hands on one of those digital scopes. Might rent one for a day or so just to compare.:D

P.S. It's been a few years since he built that machine and I'm sure he has much better designs now, so maybe if we ask nice he will elaborate a bit more on its design.:D You never know.

Aaron
11-25-2008, 09:52 PM
Err... would not the circuit have a ground from the scope, and the coil act as an inductor?

I have notice a similar wave if I don't have ground hooked up to the circuit running normally.

Thanks for sharing.

The ground from the scope is actually connected to the circuit. It is actually doing what you see in that shot. It isn't goofy stuff from the scope.

Joit
11-26-2008, 12:29 AM
The other thing I notice is that the back end batteries on those drawings don't have any diodes to prevent backflow from one battery leaking into its paralleled neighbor. This would imply that the batteries are well matched to each other and in similar condition. :thinking: So much to think about. ;)




Shamus there is an updatet Circuit, where the there are Diodes for each charging Batt as well.
http://peswiki.com/images/0/02/UPDATED_CIRCUIT.JPG
I did the mistake, that i didnt put it in, it did mess it up a bit :D

Aaron maybe your Coils are starting to selfoscillate, there is enough Wire to store Energie, and build up a Magnetfield that you get a resonant Circuit.
Just because the Coils are pretty same Size, it maybe stay still at the same Level.

Maybe you change the Size from one, that it comes into an other Resonance and swing up.
That is, what i try often to reach, that one Coil can drive the 2nd, but i cant find the right Ratio for both.
Maybe, maybe its the Golden Cut with 1:1,61 Ratio.

Aaron
11-26-2008, 12:39 AM
Hi Joit,

The transistor hooked to his coil, even with the diodes and resistors disconnected...self oscillates.

It is one of two things.

It is an antenna for the 60hz emissions from around it and that has enough to kick it off and on...I did not measure the frequency but if it is 60hz, that is probably it...if it is anything other than 60hz...

It is an antenna and is triggered by gravity potential...

Old germanium transistors were known to practically trigger themselves.

Because of this, it is easy to have an earth battery switch at high frequency for nothing and relays aren't necessary.

Joit
11-26-2008, 01:42 AM
Well, if thats it, good.
But i can figure, that it can come from the Iron core too, what still has 180 Mhz, when you use one.

Something strainge happend to me last Days, as i played around with my Bedini coil motor.
I did let it run, stopped it, disconnected all cables from the Source and Transistor,
and still got a little Spark, as i disconnected the the Cables from the Coil and brought them together.
So there was still Power in there, even, when there was nothing else connected.
Btw, my Coils looks some different, it are zwo Pancakes beside with an Iron Core, but not to much Wire on it, maybe 30m of 0.2mm and 20m of 0.4mm.

Aaron
11-26-2008, 02:14 AM
Also, the effect is stronger when it is measured in the same spot that is has been running for a long time..."aetheric entrainment"

Jetijs
11-27-2008, 11:18 AM
Hi all :)
I was load testing one of my batteries, but the test stopped due to a computer crash. It had already pulled out some 10Ah of that battery. So I decided to do another test. Since Carl said that Bedini charger does drain the battery to 8v when conditioning, I decided to load my battery to the same voltage. I got an interesting discharge curve:

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/battery_test.jpg

Isnt that odd? Could that be because at one point one of the cells fail and then the discharge goes on as usual using only 5 cells? Because it certainly seems like this. Both of my batteries behave the same way. I will now charge one of them un after this deep discharge and see what it does.
Thanks,
Jetijs

theremart
11-27-2008, 04:41 PM
Today I took the SS Bedini from the FEG book, and decided instead of trying to up the voltage on the front end to up the voltage on the back end.

I went to 60V on the back end ( 6 batteries wired in series ) and I am suprized to see that it is charging them slowly but much better rate of charge than if I had done them separately.

One thing I have noted is that the voltage when wired in series seems to always rise the batteries from the negative terminal of the charging battery seems to go up faster than the one connected to the positive side. Konehead from another group pointed this out, and I started looking for this and it does seem consistent.

Since I am in no hurry to charge all of these batteries, I think I will just let this run 24/7 as I have a 32 watt solar panel hooked to the primary. I have 3 semi batteries hooked in parallel for source and they stay between 12.3 and 13 V with it supplying power to the SS.

I may start adding more batteries to this it seems the higher the back voltage the better the charge.

hh1341
11-29-2008, 01:01 AM
Hi all :)
Since Carl said that Bedini charger does drain the battery to 8v when conditioning, I decided to load my battery to the same voltage. I got an interesting discharge curve:


Thanks,
Jetijs


Remember now, this charger is the commercially available, solid state one, offered by Introducting the Renaissance RC-30A12 & RC-15A24 Commercial Battery Rejuvenators (http://www.r-charge.com/rc-30a12.html) .

Don't know if our home built ones will perform the same. (of course my home built didn't cost me 1500 dollars, either :D )
Carl

Jetijs
11-29-2008, 01:27 PM
Hi all.
Today I made some pictures of the cell condition on one of my batteries:

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/plates_003.jpg
http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/plates_006.jpg
http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/thumbs/lrg-649-plates_011.jpg

This is in almost all the cells. I am not sure, but that white stuff should be the insulator, that insulates the lead plates from touching. If so, then the cells are physically damaged and I don't see any point in renewing them. On the other hand, I have a silly hope that that white stuff could be the sulfate, in this case the less is there, the better :) What do you think?
The plates are obviously not straight, because they have worked in harsh environment, for example, starting a wood transporter truck in temperatures below zero, the rapid temp. change makes the plates deform. Also these trucks work in woods and the road there is very bumpy so they have undergone a serious stress of vibration. This might be why I see such a discharge curve. The amp hours are still there, but the cells are just not in good condition and if some plates in a cell are touching, obviously the capacity of that cell will go down and it is likely to fail first. No radiant chargers can solve that. :(

ldissing
11-29-2008, 01:57 PM
I've been thinking a lot about all of this stuff. Looking at scope traces, spikes, etc.

I could be wrong here, but tell me what you guys think of this.

You all know that an inductor can be used to double the input voltage and have seen circuits that do this. This is basically what the Bedini single coil is doing, just using one wire for a trigger and the other as a power wire (of course, the SS has at least 3 wires, but it doesn't necessarily need three wires).

Bedini is always saying to charge without current. And that a positive energy cancels negative energy. So, with that in mind and doubling of the input voltage, you can see why he normally recommends the battery on the front end to have the same voltage as the back end. A 12 volt battery on the front end will cause the inductor to put out basically 24 volts at turn off (and of course, a spike). If the charge battery negative is connected to the positive of the source, then ONLY the spike is being transferred to the destination battery. Well, if the dest battery is at 12 volts, otherwise, there is some positive charge going to that battery until it reaches 12 volts.

So, if there is a higher voltage on the backend, then only the the spike is getting sent over to the charge batteries, because the charge batteries voltage is higher than the coil can produce (except the spike).

So, my theory is that if the input voltage is higher than the charge battery voltage, there is positive energy going into the charge battery because of the coil doubling the voltage along with a spike. The batteries charge faster, because you are pushing some positive current into that battery after the spike. But, it is a positive charge, not a negative charge. Maybe the spike pushes it into some kind of negative energy mode, but I'm wondering if conditioning should not be done with batteries of the same voltage on the source and charge sides?

Not being able to switch primary and charge batteries doesn't make sense to me either. What is the SS or SSG? It is an inductor (a coil), which is what a motor uses. JB always says that a motor can be run with negative energy, along with lights, and caps which will transduce the neg to pos energy, etc. The SS or SSG is just a type of motor with a few transistors and resistors. Anybody else think this a strange thing?

L

Shamus
11-29-2008, 02:17 PM
Yes, I've been wondering about this myself. I've used a radiantly charged 1000MCA marine starter battery to drive my Bedini circuits without any problems. I have no idea why only 'positive' energy should work ideally on the front end, but that's what Mr. Bedini says. And I keep coming back to the fact that he says it doesn't matter how many batteries you put on the back end, that 'negative' energy doesn't care. He says that this is where you see COP>1. But if you put multiple batteries on the back end, you're changing the impedance of the system. :thinking:

Yes, the TUV test that John has on his website keeps running through my mind. :thinking: Here it is in full (mods feel free to remove this if necessary, this is part of http://www.icehouse.net/john34/bedinibearden.html):

BATTERY TEST FOR THE BEDINI MOTOR GENERATOR

DATE : OCTOBER 13, 2000
BATTERY TEST SEQUENCE:
One lead acid gel-cell (12 volts, 450 milliamps) is being utilized as the primary source fully charged at 12.5 volts

Three (3) lead acid gel-cell batteries (12 volt, 450 milliamps) strapped in parallel are being used as the charge destination. The batteries are discharged to 10 volts for the test purposes.

Test #1 starts at 10:45 AM utilizing primary battery fully charged at 12.5 volts charging three (3) destination batteries paralleled. The destination batteries reach a charge capacity of 14 volts at 11:20 AM.
The destination batteries are then discharged to 10 volts under working load to prepare for Test #2.

Test #2 starts at 11:25 AM utilizing primary battery measured at 11.5 volts. Charging three (3) destination batteries paralleled. The destination batteries reach a charge capacity of 14 volts at 12:50 PM.
The destination batteries are then discharged to 10 volts under working load to prepare for Test #3.

Test #3 starts at 1:00 PM utilizing primary battery measured at 10.5 volts. Charging three (3) destination batteries paralleled. The destination batteries reach a charge capacity of 14 volts at 1:40 PM.
The destination batteries are then discharged to 10 volts under working load to prepare for Test #4.

Test #4 starts at 2:05 PM utilizing primary battery measured at 9.5 volts. Charging three (3) destination batteries paralleled. The destination batteries reach a charge capacity of 13 volts at 2:40 PM. The primary battery is now discharged to 9 volts under working load and unable to further run the

TOTAL BATTERIES CHARGED:
12 lead acid gel-cell batteries (12 volts, 450 milliamps each). This ratio is a 12 to 1 charging factor. The motor operation (work) being performed as this was done is not included as an additional factor in this test.

Now, he was able to use ONE 12 volt battery to charge up THREE identical batteries on the back end in less than ONE hour. To me, this is the yardstick of success we should all be striving for. In my humble opinion, of course. ;)

Jetijs
12-02-2008, 11:15 AM
Hi all.
I was wondering about Michaels circuit. I mean this:

http://www.energeticforum.com/attachments/renewable-energy/1452d1226104430-solid-state-bedini-ss-energizer.jpg

Does it seem right to you? I mean the transistor emiter is not connected to the ground of the primary battery. And does the trigger winding have to be connected to the positive terminal of the drive battery just like the slave power windings? I don't see how this could work. Or am I missing something here?
This is the basic Bedini self oscillator circuit:
http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/shema.GIF

Is a bit different.
:confused:

dambit
12-02-2008, 11:51 AM
I didn't realise you put a resistor between the emitter and base.

Sephiroth
12-02-2008, 09:56 PM
I didn't realise you put a resistor between the emitter and base.

Yes, I can't understand the purpose of the resitor between the emitter and the base... I find my circutis work fine without the resistor... I am assuming it is a very high value resistance to aid self oscillation, but my circuits work fine with no resistor between the base and emitter. However I use the MJLs and they can take a bit more punishment than the 2N3055s so it could be a protective componant like the neon.

Druide
12-03-2008, 01:53 AM
Hi all.
I was wondering about Michaels circuit. I mean this:

Does it seem right to you? I mean the transistor emiter is not connected to the ground of the primary battery. And does the trigger winding have to be connected to the positive terminal of the drive battery just like the slave power windings? I don't see how this could work. Or am I missing something here?

:confused:

You're right Jet, I compared with Hoppy's circuit, the emiters should be connected to the drive battery negative. Didn't have time to build this circuit yet, I'm glad you noticed this mistake !

Keep up the good work ! :thumbsup:

Michel

Druide
12-03-2008, 01:59 AM
...and if you look at Hoppy's circuit http://www.energeticforum.com/attachments/renewable-energy/1438d1225815540-solid-state-bedini-boc.jpg the trigger coil is connected to the primary battery positive.

Michel

ren
12-03-2008, 07:49 AM
Yes, I can't understand the purpose of the resitor between the emitter and the base... I find my circutis work fine without the resistor... I am assuming it is a very high value resistance to aid self oscillation, but my circuits work fine with no resistor between the base and emitter. However I use the MJLs and they can take a bit more punishment than the 2N3055s so it could be a protective componant like the neon.

I found that you dont necessarily need the 18 k resistor either Sep. Or rather, it still seems to work. Who knows what little changes may do to the system in the long term?

I am currently working on a solidstate setup that should prove very interesting. As far as I am aware, it has never been built like this, within Bedini circles anyway. I'll post some more details here when its done:thumbsup:

Hoppy
12-03-2008, 08:06 AM
I found that you dont necessarily need the 18 k resistor either Sep. Or rather, it still seems to work. Who knows what little changes may do to the system in the long term?

I am currently working on a solidstate setup that should prove very interesting. As far as I am aware, it has never been built like this, within Bedini circles anyway. I'll post some more details here when its done:thumbsup:

@all

If anyone builds the circuit I posted, I suggest that low value resistor of about 0.1R is placed in each of the emitter to ground legs. This will help to even out the collector / emitter currents flowing in each power strand.

Hoppy

gmeat
12-03-2008, 10:59 PM
Hi all.
I was wondering about Michaels circuit. I mean this:

http://www.energeticforum.com/attachments/renewable-energy/1452d1226104430-solid-state-bedini-ss-energizer.jpg

Does it seem right to you? I mean the transistor emiter is not connected to the ground of the primary battery. And does the trigger winding have to be connected to the positive terminal of the drive battery just like the slave power windings? I don't see how this could work. Or am I missing something here?
This is the basic Bedini self oscillator circuit:
http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/shema.GIF

Is a bit different.
:confused:



Hi Jetijs,


Have you tried this circuit?.I dont see how it could work to be honest with you:confused: .


-Gary

Jetijs
12-03-2008, 11:26 PM
Gary, which circuit do you mean? Michaels circuit? No I have not tried it, I just saw it and found that there is something wrong with it. I have tried the last on on my post though and it works fine :)

hh1341
12-04-2008, 01:15 AM
I have built this circuit and it works



Bedini self oscillator circuit:





Carl

dambit
12-04-2008, 01:36 AM
I built it and it fried my power supply:eek:

Jetijs
12-04-2008, 01:45 AM
which one?:confused:

gmeat
12-04-2008, 01:55 AM
Michael's circuit ,Jetijs

dambit
12-04-2008, 03:15 AM
yep that one. Its one big dead short at the moment.

gmeat
12-05-2008, 12:30 AM
yep that one. Its one big dead short at the moment.


Hi Dambit,


Are you saying that your getting a dead short with the schematic that Jetijs shows of Michael's circuit from above? I sure dont understand how that could be because as Jetijs pointed out it seems that there is no connection to ground.Are you using the same basic components?.I'm a little:confused: to say the least.


-Gary

dambit
12-05-2008, 08:01 AM
Yep, cos the drive neg is connected directly to the charging pos, and so is the charging neg to the drive pos. The circuit just gets bypassed. (the top picture not the small bottom one) :thumbsup:

Druide
12-05-2008, 03:41 PM
@all

If anyone builds the circuit I posted, I suggest that low value resistor of about 0.1R is placed in each of the emitter to ground legs. This will help to even out the collector / emitter currents flowing in each power strand.

Hoppy

Hi Hoppy

In the circuit I have posted, wich is wrong as Jetijs noticed, if we connect the emitters to the ground through small value resistors, will it ressembles to your circuit or is it still wrong ? The drive battery positive connected directly to the charge battery negative, like in JB's circuit, is it OK ? And the drive battery negative connected to the charge battery positive through TVS1, unlike JB's circuit, is it OK too ? Is there something else wrong in my circuit ?

Thanks !

Michel

Druide
12-05-2008, 03:51 PM
I built it and it fried my power supply:eek:

Hi dambit

I'm sorry to hear that you fried your power supply :embarrassed:

I hope we will get more information from Hoppy so we can build this circuit correctly.

I'm sorry for those who have build my circuit and fried some parts. I was so glad to post this circuit, my first computer assisted schematic, now I'm embarrassed and confused. :embarrassed:

Michel

dambit
12-05-2008, 04:00 PM
Hi all,

A wierd thing has happened to my circuit. I went away last weekend and unpluged everything before I left, just in case. When I got back I pluged it all back up and now nothing works. No one had fiddled with it and I can find nothing wrong with any of the components, but for some reason the transistors are just not switching. I have tried to trigger them manualy with magnets and still nothing. Everything appears normal and I even see the normal voltage rise on the scope when I hit the on switch. Very confussed :confused: :confused: :confused:

And yes, I have checked my cables and checked for continuity in the coils. All good.

dambit
12-05-2008, 04:02 PM
Hi dambit

I'm sorry to hear that you fried your power supply :embarrassed:

I hope we will get more information from Hoppy so we can build this circuit correctly.

I'm sorry for those who have build my circuit and fried some parts. I was so glad to post this circuit, my first computer assisted schematic, now I'm embarrassed and confused. :embarrassed:

Michel

Don't worry about it. I have plenty of spare power supplies. :thumbsup: Just thought I report what happened, that's all.

Cheers,

Steve.

Druide
12-06-2008, 12:46 AM
Hi open source engineers

Do you think this circuit could work ?

The loop between drive (+), charge (-), charge (+), TVS1, drive (-) still puzzles me. :thinking:

What do you think ?

Michel

theremart
12-06-2008, 05:33 PM
http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/shema%20(2).GIF

:notworthy: :notworthy:

Jetijs,

I LOVE this circuit!!!!!!!

I took 3 2n5038 transistors and hooked them up as you have shown, with 2 100 ohm 25W resistors. ( I wanted to be prepared :) ) as of now it is pulling only 300 ma and the target batteries is going up very quickly. The strange thing was I was unable to get it to trigger at 12V, but it started right away at 24V. It took me all week to figure out that 24V was what I needed to give it a jump start.

I am using the speaker coil as my primary winding, all the coils are very cool. I started out with only 1 100 ohm resistor but that heated up fairly fast so I tried two and the pitch went higher. What was another strange thing to me was I could only get it to start if I ran both of the speaker coils in series if I tried just one, it would not start.

Again THANK YOU for sharing this:thumbsup:

Hoppy
12-06-2008, 05:59 PM
Hi Hoppy

In the circuit I have posted, wich is wrong as Jetijs noticed, if we connect the emitters to the ground through small value resistors, will it ressembles to your circuit or is it still wrong ? The drive battery positive connected directly to the charge battery negative, like in JB's circuit, is it OK ? And the drive battery negative connected to the charge battery positive through TVS1, unlike JB's circuit, is it OK too ? Is there something else wrong in my circuit ?

Thanks !

Michel

Hi Michel

The emitters should all be connected to ground and preferably through the very low value resistors to share current more evenly.

The output stage is correct and conforms to the basic Bedini SG configuration, that is output to charging battery positive. The TVS diode if correctly rated to have a 'strike' voltage above the highest possible charging battery voltage plus drive voltage will not short the supply battery or PSU. For example if the nominal voltage of the secondary (charge) battery is 24V, it should not go any higher than 31V (2 x 15.5V) when fully charged. If the supply (primary) battery is 12V, it should not rise above 15,5V. The total voltage of the batteries in series is therefore 46.5V. The TVS diode should be a few volts above this and I would give a good margin and go for a diode between 60V and 80V.

Remember that this diode is fitted to switch very fast in the event of the output becoming open circuit and preventing a damaging high voltage across the transistors. A low value power resistor can be placed in series with TVS diode to limit the fault current and resultant heat build up in the TVS diode.

Hoppy

Jetijs
12-06-2008, 10:44 PM
:notworthy: :notworthy:

Jetijs,

I LOVE this circuit!!!!!!!

I took 3 2n5038 transistors and hooked them up as you have shown, with 2 100 ohm 25W resistors. ( I wanted to be prepared :) ) as of now it is pulling only 300 ma and the target batteries is going up very quickly. The strange thing was I was unable to get it to trigger at 12V, but it started right away at 24V. It took me all week to figure out that 24V was what I needed to give it a jump start.

I am using the speaker coil as my primary winding, all the coils are very cool. I started out with only 1 100 ohm resistor but that heated up fairly fast so I tried two and the pitch went higher. What was another strange thing to me was I could only get it to start if I ran both of the speaker coils in series if I tried just one, it would not start.

Again THANK YOU for sharing this:thumbsup:

Mart, no problems :) Glad to hear that it works good for you. My aircored coils also do not start by themselves at 12v, I have to put a ferrite rod in the coil and then tap this rod with a magnet to get it started. Now I am conditioning a dead sulfated battery that has its plates in tact, so far it works very well and each discharge cycle gets more and more amp hours out of the battery. But I noticed, that if I leave this charger on a battery for too long, after it is already full, the battery does get warm, but I have not noticed any ill effects from this heat. After that overcharge, I still got more out of the battery than in previous discharge.
Thanks,
Jetijs

theremart
12-06-2008, 11:28 PM
Mart, no problems :) Glad to hear that it works good for you. My aircored coils also do not start by themselves at 12v, I have to put a ferrite rod in the coil and then tap this rod with a magnet to get it started. Now I am conditioning a dead sulfated battery that has its plates in tact, so far it works very well and each discharge cycle gets more and more amp hours out of the battery. But I noticed, that if I leave this charger on a battery for too long, after it is already full, the battery does get warm, but I have not noticed any ill effects from this heat. After that overcharge, I still got more out of the battery than in previous discharge.
Thanks,
Jetijs

Hmm I just tested it now it works at 12V... oh well... Does it work better for you with empty cores? I just switched to 2 100 meg in parallel and it is now drawing 800 ma. very nice charging, I hooked up a scope and I am getting over 100V spikes of 'h' waves with the battery connected. I did VERY VERY well, I got each of these transistors for $2.00 and they are doing great!.

I am wondering it seems we are wasting a lot of energy on the resistor I wonder if we could something else with that ... hmmm

Jetijs
12-06-2008, 11:53 PM
Mart, I used the air cored coils just because the welding rod cores would heat up to 60 degree celsius over time, I think that this is because of the eddycurrents. Anyway, air cored coils operate at higher frequency and the amp draw is greater, but so is also the charging rate. I can get the amp draw less if I insert a core material in the coil, but that makes the frequency smaller and the core material starts to heat up.
:cheers:

theremart
12-07-2008, 12:38 AM
Mart, I used the air cored coils just because the welding rod cores would heat up to 60 degree celsius over time, I think that this is because of the eddycurrents. Anyway, air cored coils operate at higher frequency and the amp draw is greater, but so is also the charging rate. I can get the amp draw less if I insert a core material in the coil, but that makes the frequency smaller and the core material starts to heat up.
:cheers:

None of my cores are hot nor are my coils, but I am up to 200 ohms on my resistor. I just emptied one of my coils of the ferrite beads the amps shot up from 300 milla amp to 600 milla amps, however the charge shot right up too. I can change the charge rate by the number of circular ferrious beads I put in. Very sweet. everything is cool to the touch now drawing 600 milla amps. Perfect for my 13 amp hour batteries.

Jetijs
12-07-2008, 12:41 AM
I think that your cores are not heating up, because your amp draw is so low. You can't heat anything with that. My coils together are consuming 5.5A and that is enough to heat the core due to the eddy currents. Its like a induction heater. The greater the amps flowing through the windings, the more heat you get. :)

dambit
12-07-2008, 01:22 AM
5.5 A. Wow, how many transisters are you running? Mine draws 1.7 with five transisters.
This setup does work very well, but I am still unable to get mine to start again, so I will build a second one to see if it is the transisters that have gone. Very odd as I did nothing to burn them out. Working perfect one minute, I unplug it, plug it pack up and now it doesn't work. :confused:

Cheers.

Steve

theremart
12-07-2008, 01:26 AM
Yes you are right, big difference of amperage. I am starting off small with the low amp hour batteries, then hope to work up in amperage as you have.

As I look at your setup, you have 2 sets of 5 transistors so you have two trigger coils?

I am thinking of taking one of my full spools of bifilar 20 gauge wire and cutting it in half so I can fire more transistors. Looking at your setup, that should work just fine for me.

theremart
12-07-2008, 01:31 AM
5.5 A. Wow, how many transisters are you running? Mine draws 1.7 with five transisters.
This setup does work very well, but I am still unable to get mine to start again, so I will build a second one to see if it is the transisters that have gone. Very odd as I did nothing to burn them out. Working perfect one minute, I unplug it, plug it pack up and now it doesn't work. :confused:

Cheers.

Steve

I had a short in my coil that did that to me. I have seen that with marginally bad transistors... I have also seen this that you have to unhook either positive or negative from primary then hook it up alone, if I plug it in it does not work, I am guessing.... that the transistor is going into solid state mode and it does not function unless the coil is away from the magnet when you start... just an idea...

Those cold soldered connections also can do you in... sigh...:rolleyes:

Jetijs
12-07-2008, 02:01 AM
I use two coils. One coil has five strands and one of those strands is used as a trigger wire. With one coil I could get the circuit to consume about 3.5A, but for my 200Ah batteries I needed more power, so I just made another circuit from another coil and just made them work in parallel. That means that both coils are powered from the same power source, but all the output diode cathodes are connected together and then go to the Charging battery positive wire. Now I am using 7 transistors, but the second coil still has two unused strands, so I can go bigger. If I use those remaining strands I could get the circuit to consume about 7A :suprise:
That would be great for conditioning several big batteries at once.
5.5 A. Wow, how many transisters are you running? Mine draws 1.7 with five transisters.
Steve, you can get the circuit to consume more amps by decreasing the base resistor value, but this will also make the resistor heat up more so be sure to use a high wattage resistor. I chose the resistor value so that they are getting hot, but not too hot to touch. This makes each of the transistors to let about 0.7A through, so if you have 7 transistors in parallel, that gives you a current draw of about 5A :)

BTW, there are no neon protection bulbs in my circuit, you might add those across each transistor collector and emitter, just to be safe :)
Hope this helps.

Jetijs
12-09-2008, 11:17 AM
Hi all.
I found a dead battery with all the plates in tact. This is a 60Ah Panasonic lead acid car battery from my toyota yaris. It was dead last year and was sitting all the winter outside. Here is a discharge cycle chart:

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/battery%20tests%20(1).jpg

It keeps getting better and better :)

dambit
12-09-2008, 12:51 PM
Hi Jetijs,

Is the bottom scale the time scale, as in how long it was discharging for? Just asking cos it's labled amphrs.

Cheers,

P.S. Still not sure whats going on with my circuit, so I'm just going to build a new one as I can still find nothing wrong. Too hard basket. :)

dambit
12-09-2008, 12:59 PM
This makes each of the transistors to let about 0.7A through, so if you have 7 transistors in parallel, that gives you a current draw of about 5A :)

Hi again,

Are you still getting a good spike when you have this much conventional current on the output. I chose to set mine to draw 1.7A because I still got a good spike at that level of draw (and I can't draw any more without changing the base resistors to less than 100ohms.) Now that I am rebuilding it, I will use much lower values for the base resistors so that I can draw more and see what happens.

Cheers,

Steve.

theremart
12-09-2008, 01:25 PM
I use two coils. One coil has five strands and one of those strands is used as a trigger wire. With one coil I could get the circuit to consume about 3.5A, but for my 200Ah batteries I needed more power, so I just made another circuit from another coil and just made them work in parallel. That means that both coils are powered from the same power source, but all the output diode cathodes are connected together and then go to the Charging battery positive wire. Now I am using 7 transistors, but the second coil still has two unused strands, so I can go bigger. If I use those remaining strands I could get the circuit to consume about 7A :suprise:
That would be great for conditioning several big batteries at once.


Do you have all of the base resistors tied together? I noted in earlier pictures that you have 2 sets of resistors.... Not sure on the latest one where you are using 25W how you are setting up the base resistors.

thanks

dambit
12-09-2008, 01:58 PM
Hi All,

Well, I think the problem is my coil. Even though none of the strands have shorted it is the only remaining part I have not replaced. I built an entirely new five transistor circuit identical to the specs of my last one, soldered the coil wires to it and still nothing. I find it unlikely that all ten of these transitors are buggered. Especially the new ones. Not to worry, I have three new coils arriving within the week so I will soon find out.

Cheers,

Steve.

Jetijs
12-09-2008, 02:26 PM
Hi Jetijs,

Is the bottom scale the time scale, as in how long it was discharging for? Just asking cos it's labled amphrs.

Are you still getting a good spike when you have this much conventional current on the output. I chose to set mine to draw 1.7A because I still got a good spike at that level of draw (and I can't draw any more without changing the base resistors to less than 100ohms.) Now that I am rebuilding it, I will use much lower values for the base resistors so that I can draw more and see what happens.

Cheers,

The bottom scale show amp hours and is also showing how long the test went. The longer, the better.

The spikes seem just as any spikes from Bedini circuits, so no problems there.

Do you have all of the base resistors tied together? I noted in earlier pictures that you have 2 sets of resistors.... Not sure on the latest one where you are using 25W how you are setting up the base resistors.

Mart, I have two coil circuits in parallel. There are two tesistor sets, one for one coil and other for the second coil. All the base resistors are tied together to get the needed resistance and to reduce the heating.
:cheers:

Druide
12-09-2008, 07:24 PM
Hi Michel

The emitters should all be connected to ground and preferably through the very low value resistors to share current more evenly.

The output stage is correct and conforms to the basic Bedini SG configuration, that is output to charging battery positive. The TVS diode if correctly rated to have a 'strike' voltage above the highest possible charging battery voltage plus drive voltage will not short the supply battery or PSU. For example if the nominal voltage of the secondary (charge) battery is 24V, it should not go any higher than 31V (2 x 15.5V) when fully charged. If the supply (primary) battery is 12V, it should not rise above 15,5V. The total voltage of the batteries in series is therefore 46.5V. The TVS diode should be a few volts above this and I would give a good margin and go for a diode between 60V and 80V.

Remember that this diode is fitted to switch very fast in the event of the output becoming open circuit and preventing a damaging high voltage across the transistors. A low value power resistor can be placed in series with TVS diode to limit the fault current and resultant heat build up in the TVS diode.

Hoppy

Hi Clive

Thank you for these precisions. Wich resistance and wattage values would you suggest for the fault current limiting resistor ? Should this resistor be inserted between the drive negative and TVS or between charge positive and TVS ?

Thanks !

Michel

Hoppy
12-09-2008, 11:15 PM
Hi Clive

Thank you for these precisions. Wich resistance and wattage values would you suggest for the fault current limiting resistor ? Should this resistor be inserted between the drive negative and TVS or between charge positive and TVS ?

Thanks !

Michel

Michel

Perhaps a better method than just limiting the current and one I use to effect is to bond a 60 or 70 degree C thermal fuse to the TVS diode with super glue and connect the thermal fuse in series with the master transistor base trigger circuit . When the thermal fuse open circuits the charger will shut down to prevent the transistors from getting damaged by an open circuit output.

Hoppy

theremart
12-10-2008, 02:59 AM
Mart, I have two coil circuits in parallel. There are two tesistor sets, one for one coil and other for the second coil. All the base resistors are tied together to get the needed resistance and to reduce the heating.
:cheers:


Ok, tonight I finished my 10 transistor setup with Jetijs design. With a 200 ohm base resistance it is pulling 2 amps with a 12V as primary. Everything is cool to touch, the waveform is 70V h wave spikes on all transistors attached to the battery. The charge is much deeper, as I am seeing a higher resting voltage than I have seen before in my batteries. I am excited about this setup!

BTW Jetijs, there is a new version of the West Mountain Battery software, version 2.0 that has some new features, that I was told about. Looks well worth the download. FYI

Jetijs
12-10-2008, 04:04 PM
Hi all :)
I noticed that if I leave the battery on the charger for longer time, the battery increases the capacity much more. The battery does warm up, but nevertheless I had the most increase in capacity after long charging times. Maybe that cold/hot boiling takes care of the sulfate better. See for yourself:

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/11111.jpg

I let the battery on the charger over night, that is about 12 hours of charging. The battery was warm and you could hear it boiling. I let it rest for a hour and then started the discharge.
Thanks :)

selamatg
12-10-2008, 05:14 PM
@ Jetijs,

Thanks for your sharing the circuit... I will replicate very soon but I'm still not quite sure how to determine the base resistor value (as your experiment)?

Also, I ever hear that someone talking discharge load the battery using Resistor, if anyone know how to do that please advice and how to calculate the resistor value to the Amp draw as we need?

thanks in advance,
Selamatg

dambit
12-10-2008, 11:37 PM
Hi,

As far as I know there is no real calculation, just a guestimation. I now think the base resistor is simply there to make sure that there is some resistance to the base, because I can get the circuits working fine without base resistors. I'm probably wrong but that's what I think. :rofl:

Cheers

Jetijs
12-11-2008, 12:04 AM
Selamatg,
I would take one 500 or so Ohm 2w resistor as a base resistor at first and see what the amp draw is. If it is too low, then take another resistor of the same value and connect it in parallel with the first one. This will lower the resistance twice, but increase the heat handling properties. Make the amp draw lower and lower till you get about 0.5-0.7 A durrent draw per transistor. That means that if you have 3 transistors in the circuit, the optimum amp draw would be 1.5-2A.
Hope this helps.
Thanks,
Jetijs

Shamus
12-11-2008, 03:41 AM
@selamatg: For a resistor discharge you want to take the C20 rate of the battery and multiply by 0.8 (80% of the discharge rate). Then divide that number by 20 to get the amount of amps the battery can safely discharge at that rate. Then, use Ohm's law to determine the value of the resistor you need: R = V/I where R is the resistance in ohms, V is typically 12 volts, and I is the amps you calculated above.

So, the formula would be R = V / ((Ah * 0.8) / 20) or R = 25 * V / Ah where Ah is the amp hour rating of the battery. :) I've heard that for CCA and MCA ratings that you have to divide those by 20 to get the amp hour rating, but I'm not sure where that 20 comes from. :thinking:

Also: Make sure that watt rating of your resistor can handle the discharge! 1/4 watt resistors won't cut it. ;)

selamatg
12-11-2008, 03:05 PM
@selamatg: For a resistor discharge you want to take the C20 rate of the battery and multiply by 0.8 (80% of the discharge rate). Then divide that number by 20 to get the amount of amps the battery can safely discharge at that rate. Then, use Ohm's law to determine the value of the resistor you need: R = V/I where R is the resistance in ohms, V is typically 12 volts, and I is the amps you calculated above.

So, the formula would be R = V / ((Ah * 0.8) / 20) or R = 25 * V / Ah where Ah is the amp hour rating of the battery. :) I've heard that for CCA and MCA ratings that you have to divide those by 20 to get the amp hour rating, but I'm not sure where that 20 comes from. :thinking:

Also: Make sure that watt rating of your resistor can handle the discharge! 1/4 watt resistors won't cut it. ;)

@Shamus..

Thanks you....
So if I have 60AH battery should use 5 Ohm Resistor and 2.5 Ohm for 120 AH battery?

Thanks in advance :thumbsup:

:cheers: Selamatg

selamatg
12-11-2008, 03:10 PM
Selamatg,
I would take one 500 or so Ohm 2w resistor as a base resistor at first and see what the amp draw is. If it is too low, then take another resistor of the same value and connect it in parallel with the first one. This will lower the resistance twice, but increase the heat handling properties. Make the amp draw lower and lower till you get about 0.5-0.7 A durrent draw per transistor. That means that if you have 3 transistors in the circuit, the optimum amp draw would be 1.5-2A.
Hope this helps.
Thanks,
Jetijs

Thank you Jetijs...

I will try later soon and see what I can get.....


:cheers: Selamatg

Shamus
12-11-2008, 05:54 PM
@Selamatg: If those are 12V batteries, then that is correct. :) Just make sure those are high watt resistors! ;)

Jetijs
12-11-2008, 09:18 PM
Battery is up to 14Ah now and keeps improving. :D
Interesting, if I put an iron bar in one of the coils, it gets hot rather fast. After a minute it is already so hot, that I can't hold it in my hands :D
The power of induction :rofl:

theremart
12-12-2008, 02:52 AM
Today I tried the circuit at 5 amps. The transistors got very too warm for me after 10 hours so I switched back to 20V at 2 1/2 amps that is running great all is cool and the golf cart batteries are going up in charge.

I measured the amps going to the charge battery when I had the 5 amps going in at 12V it was over 2 amps going to the charging batteries. The golf carts did not even get warm. They are tough batteries :)

I will attempt to do a charge comparison of previous charges with the multi coil Bedini verses this, but from what I can see this one has the other beat hands down.

Yet, to be fair, I did remove bad places in the coils I had, and this circuit is in much betters shape.

dambit
12-13-2008, 08:17 AM
Hi All,

I feel so stupid. I found out why my circuit wasn't working....... my power supply was shot. :rofl: :wall: I didn't even think to check it. Oh well.

I recieved my new coils today and have set one of them up with my existing coil. They are drawing 3.4A @ 15V. The coils are only slightly warm, the charge rate is very good and I am now able to charge some of my larger batteries that I couldn't before. :thumbsup: I can't wait to add the third coil (and circuits) to the mix.

The scope was set at 5V per devision and .5ms time intervals.

dambit
12-13-2008, 02:51 PM
Hi Guys,

Sorry to double post, but I took an interesting photo of the wave on the scope. I have essentially zoomed in on the spike of the wave. I set the time interval to 0.5 Us and kept the volts the same. In one of the pictures I have superimposed the two so you can see they match. :thumbsup:

It's amazing what you see when you zoom in on things.

Cheers,

Steve.

theremart
12-15-2008, 03:47 PM
I am very happy to see both of my golf cart batteries now up to 13.90 V ! with the Solid State setup. I have not ever seen this high of voltage with my 4 multi coiler setup with the same amount of voltage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XixT5KCM27Y

Things are looking very good with 20 V 2 1/2 amp input.

Jetijs
12-15-2008, 07:16 PM
Hi Mart. It's a great setup you have there :thumbsup:
I would go up in amperage for those 200Ah batteries. I could charge my 200Ah battery to the max in about 20 hours with 5.2A input at 13V. You have to adjust the base resistance so that each transistor handles about 0.5-0.7A, that should handle the heat. My transistors are just slightly warm, of course they are glued to a small aluminum plate, that also acts as a heatsink a bit, but I am sure, that they should work the same also without the plates.
Mart, where did you get the CBA2 new software? From their web page? Is it for free or does it cost something? And can this new software be used with the olds CBA tester?
Thank you,
Jetijs
BTW, my 60Ah battery has now improved to 18Ah :)

ren
12-15-2008, 09:04 PM
Hi guys, heres something Ive been working on for a few weeks now. Inspired by John Bedini and Erf. Its an extension of the capacitive discharge pulser in solid state form. I still have some tinkering to do with it, and it may not need all the transistors, as the caps are all connected on the positive leg, so they all charge.

Basically it is SCD, sequential capacitive discharge. I wanted to see if multiple capacitors could be used on the backend, with each one firing in sequence. This would hopefully allow for each cap to build up a higher potential without the battery having to wait for extended lengths inbetween.

So far it seems to work good. I modified a simple LED chaser circuit so that the LEDs will trigger the opto isolators. Their timing is also adjustable via pot.

I have five transistors for a 6 filar coil, I think that I may only need one however. Each transistor is connected to a bridge, which feeds 5 120uF 330v photo flash caps.

Just waiting on the SCRs and optos to fire it up. I think it could be utilised or modified for other purposes, for example replacing the charging battery with another coil or a spark plug. Anyway, heres a pic.

theremart
12-15-2008, 11:58 PM
Hi Mart. It's a great setup you have there :thumbsup:
I would go up in amperage for those 200Ah batteries. I could charge my 200Ah battery to the max in about 20 hours with 5.2A input at 13V. You have to adjust the base resistance so that each transistor handles about 0.5-0.7A, that should handle the heat. My transistors are just slightly warm, of course they are glued to a small aluminum plate, that also acts as a heatsink a bit, but I am sure, that they should work the same also without the plates.
Mart, where did you get the CBA2 new software? From their web page? Is it for free or does it cost something? And can this new software be used with the olds CBA tester?
Thank you,
Jetijs
BTW, my 60Ah battery has now improved to 18Ah :)

Thank you Jetijs,

Then new software is here...

West Mountain Radio - Computerized Battery Analyzer Software Update (http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBAVER2.htm)

Congrates on the extra amp hours out of your battery.

Jetijs
12-18-2008, 11:50 AM
Hi Mart :)
Just tested the new software. Works great. Although still I like to discharge my batteries with the previous software version, the new version has its advantages. I like the charging monitor the most. Although it is said in the manual, that you shouldn't use a charger that has the same ground as your computer and also the radiant spikes are not the most electronic friendly stuff, I still took the risk and monitored the charging of my solid state charger. Worked good. Here is the charging curve:

http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/curve.jpg

We can see that at about 550 minutes of charging, we got the highest voltage, that stays the same for a while and then gradualy starts to drop dwon, I think that this is because battery heating up, because as the battery charges, there is no heat, but when it is fully charged and the charging is continued, heat starts to appear. I guess that those 550 minutes is the optimal charge time for this battery.
It is great that we have such a charge monitoring tool.
Thanks,
Jetijs

Sephiroth
12-18-2008, 03:19 PM
I have a usb multimeter but the software that comes with it is c##p... do you know if this software will work with any meter or is it just for one?

theremart
12-18-2008, 03:23 PM
I have a usb multimeter but the software that comes with it is c##p... do you know if this software will work with any meter or is it just for one?

Sorry man this is only for the CBA .....

I had trouble this morning with mine, I tried 10 amps pull on the batteries and it reported that it was overheating :( Think I will create my own 10 amp load with my crock pot and then use the charging feature to measure voltage.

Jetijs
12-18-2008, 03:23 PM
Seph, I don't think that this software will work on your multimeter. It is specially designed for the CBA battery analyzer.
Mart, that is a big load. I have never tried a load this big. The biggest I tried was 7A :)

theremart
12-18-2008, 03:52 PM
Seph, I don't think that this software will work on your multimeter. It is specially designed for the CBA battery analyzer.
Mart, that is a big load. I have never tried a load this big. The biggest I tried was 7A :)


I called CBA asking them why the unit may of shut off...

The answer was I charged the battery up to 14.06 V... and I was pulling 10 amps thus...

140.6 Watts is what I was pulling on way over the capacity of the measuring of the device. Makes alot of sense now.

theremart
12-18-2008, 10:30 PM
Decided to really push them...

http://i41.tinypic.com/14vp5hc.jpg

YouTube - Video 58 SS under load (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdlB_sRiULk)

Pulled 14 amps for 286 min ( 4.76 hours ) so I got 66.73 amp hours out

The crockpot cooked up my flax seed great :)

0p0rat0r
12-22-2008, 06:50 AM
Is anyone here getting > 1.0 cop out of their bedini chargers? My understanding is that the batteries when conditioned overtime will give more amp hours than was put into them. It seems like everyone here is aiming for a fast charging rate but what about the cop?

I'm confused as to what to expect from bedini technology. I see a lot of experimentation and variations on johns circuits but no mention of cop results. Has anyone been able to run the machine off conditioned batteries exclusively without external input, like using a conditioned charge battery to run an inverter to charge the primary closing the loop?

Also another question I have regarding scaling up I've read it can get expensive but I'm wondering if someone can give me a better idea. Where's the expense come from and how much are we talking about?

Here's what I have in mind in terms of cost for a modest but hopefully practical system, correct me if I'm wrong. I could be way off here. This is just off the top of my head..

Off Ricks site he's got 10 MJL21194 transistors for $55, 1 ten pound spool of magnet wire for about $100. I think there's 1000 feet of wire on those 10 lb spools but I could be wrong. So let's say I can build 2 coils of 4 strands each at 120 feet, 4 transistors per coil, and say 6 coils. That's $300 for magnet wire for the coils, let's say $150 for transistors, and maybe another $100 for diodes and resistors, total is about $500 to $600, lets say the rotor is made from wood and the batteries are surplus so maybe total we're looking at $1000.

I thought I read somewhere that John's big 10 coil machine cost like $30,000 to build, I'm assuming that is including R&D costs to get to that point, or am I missing something?

What really got me into this Bedini thing was energy from the vacuum #2 where John showed his big 10 coil machine and the other machines with high cop and he said we show people how to do this on the yahoo group. Since then I've been reading and reading on forums and posts on the group but it seems like he's given just a very basic starting point and its not at all easy to replicate his cop performance specially for a person with little to no experience in electronics such as myself.

I guess what I'm looking for here is either encouragement or a reality check.

dambit
12-22-2008, 07:52 AM
Is anyone here getting > 1.0 cop out of their bedini chargers? My understanding is that the batteries when conditioned overtime will give more amp hours than was put into them. It seems like everyone here is aiming for a fast charging rate but what about the cop?

I'm confused as to what to expect from bedini technology. I see a lot of experimentation and variations on johns circuits but no mention of cop results. Has anyone been able to run the machine off conditioned batteries exclusively without external input, like using a conditioned charge battery to run an inverter to charge the primary closing the loop?

Also another question I have regarding scaling up I've read it can get expensive but I'm wondering if someone can give me a better idea. Where's the expense come from and how much are we talking about?

Here's what I have in mind in terms of cost for a modest but hopefully practical system, correct me if I'm wrong. I could be way off here. This is just off the top of my head..

Off Ricks site he's got 10 MJL21194 transistors for $55, 1 ten pound spool of magnet wire for about $100. I think there's 1000 feet of wire on those 10 lb spools but I could be wrong. So let's say I can build 2 coils of 4 strands each at 120 feet, 4 transistors per coil, and say 6 coils. That's $300 for magnet wire for the coils, let's say $150 for transistors, and maybe another $100 for diodes and resistors, total is about $500 to $600, lets say the rotor is made from wood and the batteries are surplus so maybe total we're looking at $1000.

I thought I read somewhere that John's big 10 coil machine cost like $30,000 to build, I'm assuming that is including R&D costs to get to that point, or am I missing something?

What really got me into this Bedini thing was energy from the vacuum #2 where John showed his big 10 coil machine and the other machines with high cop and he said we show people how to do this on the yahoo group. Since then I've been reading and reading on forums and posts on the group but it seems like he's given just a very basic starting point and its not at all easy to replicate his cop performance specially for a person with little to no experience in electronics such as myself.

I guess what I'm looking for here is either encouragement or a reality check.


Hi Mate,

The machines themselves are not COP>1, the batteries are where the extra energy is to be found. I have been able to get more out of my batteries that it took to charge them, sometimes up to 2 times the amount. (Not capacity, just energy out compared to conventional energy in) I am sure others have too. If I can, anyone can. :rofl:

As far as the expense goes, I have almost completed a 20 circuit charger and so far it has cost me about AUD$750. By the time it is complete it will be just over AUD$1000. That is just for the charger, not the batteries. Most of the expense is in my coils. I couldn't be bothered winding them myself so I get them done by a professional. They are five strands each and cost AUD$150. I have four of them on this charger. The rest is cheap as. I ordered my 20 transistors (MJL21194) from the states before the dollar went to crap for AUD$6 each (and I've only blown 5 of them :rofl: )

I think the majority of JB's costs were his batteries. Would have been hard to find 24 surplus batteries in good nic. I'm sure some would have been got at full price.

Cheers,

Steve.

selamatg
12-22-2008, 04:10 PM
@Jetijs,

I'll like to thank you for your sharing circuit :thanks: ... work well for me and charging very fast..., I use 2 tri-filla coil and draw 2.5Amp
Bit hot at the coil and resistor.... I used little fan to help as cooler...
I have check with my old oscilloscope showing the "h" waveform like yours.
Sorry I can't attach the picture right now ... "camera problem":(

:cheers: Selamatg

slayer007
12-23-2008, 03:49 PM
@Jetijs

Hello
Could you try this with your circuit and see if it helps any.
Unhook one of your transistors so you have an empty winding on your coil.

Then run your BEMF back thru your coil going in the positive and then comming back out the negative.

Heres a video showing what I'm talking about.
It incressed my voltage from about 16v to to about 150v after going back thru my coil.

YouTube - BEMF-Voltage100_0463.mov (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW3Bz2tdmAY&feature=channel_page)

theremart
12-23-2008, 04:32 PM
@Jetijs

Hello
Could you try this with your circuit and see if it helps any.
Unhook one of your transistors so you have an empty winding on your coil.

Then run your BEMF back thru your coil going in the positive and then comming back out the negative.

Heres a video showing what I'm talking about.
It incressed my voltage from about 16v to to about 150v after going back thru my coil.

YouTube - BEMF-Voltage100_0463.mov (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW3Bz2tdmAY&feature=channel_page)

Ok,

Can you take a standard Bedini schematic and show us where you are moving the wires around to?

Thanks for sharing, does it increase the charge rate?

Mart:cheers:

slayer007
12-23-2008, 07:02 PM
@ Theremart

I dont have a coil wound for the Bedini circuit.
I was woundering if it would work the same as the setup I have.

The setup I'm using now is the same as in the pulse generator thread.
But it should work the same.

If you have a coil with more than one winding.
Send your BEMF thru the positive of your second coil winding(it should be the start of your coil)then it just comes back out the negative side of your coil(the end of your coil)

Lidmotor allso made a Very Nice video of it on youtube.

YouTube - Slayer007 Back Energy Booster---My replication (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBapUXdw8Dg&feature=channel_page)

There is a circuit of it in the pulse generator thread its a little differant setup than the Bedini but it should work the same.

Here is another video sowing the differance in voltage and amp draw after a load.
The load was a 110v nightlight.
The amps shown in the video is the current going to the light.
Then after going thru the coil it show more current and voltage going to the light.

YouTube - Pulse Generator BEMF Amp Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk5oltWxuoA&feature=channel_page)

Lidmotor
12-23-2008, 07:42 PM
@Theremart
@ Slayer

In my replication video I am using a bifilar coil that is a little different. It is 250 turns of 26 ga. and 650 turns of 30 ga. wrapped together but not twisted. The core is a bunch of nails. It worked great but I think that the 750 turn coil that you used Slayer would work much better. In my particular setup I may have been getting a transformer type of induction effect because of the mismatched coil windings.:thinking: Whatever--- It sure put out.

Lidmotor

Jetijs
12-23-2008, 08:05 PM
Slayer, do you mean like this?
http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/shema__2_.GIF

If yes, then what happens is the frequency and the amp draw goes down a bit and the charging becomes slower. This is with air core.
Thanks,
Jetijs

slayer007
12-23-2008, 08:17 PM
Slayer, do you mean like this?
http://www.emuprim.lv/bildez/images/viskautkas_labs/visadi_strunti_1/shema__2_.GIF

If yes, then what happens is the frequency and the amp draw goes down a bit and the charging becomes slower. This is with air core.
Thanks,
Jetijs


Yes thats the way I was talking about.
But on my setup I have both battery grounds hooked togeather.
I wounder if its because I'm using a reedswitch and a solid coil.:thinking:
Anyway thaks for the reply Jetijs.:)

patmac
12-24-2008, 01:31 PM
You need understand what is radiant energy...

If you put a resistor like a battery charge, you'll see only a little energy is recover in relation to energy in on the machine, but if you use a device to reconvert that radiant energy, like lead acid batt you'll see like the batt is charged very fast, out relation that energy in to the machine. The problem is that to get efficiently COP>1 or more, you need Big Deep Cycle batteris, big plates, maybe because radiant energy is like gas or spark, if you put this energy in SLI batt when the plates is very near negative and positive plate, this spark is wasted, maybe in the internal connections or near in the plates connections, spark need hit all the plates.

I have no this Depp cycles batts, my batts are SLI, is problematic charge them fully with the SG, then how can I measure output energy?

I've found a big 1.5 Farads capacitor, and I tested output energy vs time, and consumption my COP>1.0 many times or COP=1 in worse cases.

Capacitor is good for reconvert this energy in usefull energy, there is another devices like Gray Tube. To reconvert the energy and use this energy for inductive loads like a pulse motor in HV.

theremart
01-25-2009, 01:15 PM
Well instead of having just one laptop power supply powering my charger I went to a second one splitting my 10 transistors in to two sets of 5. I then simply put both outputs to the charging battery. I am using two laptop power supplies for the primary power one at 20V 2.5 amps and the other at 20V 3 amps. I am very impressed with the results this is the fastest charge to date of my golf cart batteries. The two 6 volt golf cart batteries were both fully charged in 1.46 days. This sure beats the old 5 day method I used to use.


http://i41.tinypic.com/30jh79f.jpg

theremart
02-16-2009, 08:05 PM
If you have the video "Energy From the Vacuum 2" directly before John shows the energy going thru the plastic you get a small glimpse of John Bedini's solid state charger. I found it interesting he is using air coils.... You see them wrapped up next to the charger.

dambit
02-17-2009, 07:00 AM
Hi Mart,

Are the coils from the solid state or something just sitting next to it? I can't quite tell.

Has anyone bought one of his commercial chargers yet and opened it up? I might get one and see what's inside. :D :eek:

Cheers,

Steve

theremart
02-17-2009, 11:42 PM
Hi Mart,

Are the coils from the solid state or something just sitting next to it? I can't quite tell.

Has anyone bought one of his commercial chargers yet and opened it up? I might get one and see what's inside. :D :eek:

Cheers,

Steve

A friend of mine took one of the small chargers apart and the circuit is in cased in resin :) I think people like you would be too inquisitive :)

I have wrapped coils as shown on the video and they work great. Now once I fix the broken transistors from my stupid stupid actions of not putting the neon bulbs on, I will be back in business.

sigh :wall:

theremart
02-22-2009, 12:28 AM
I have found I can now not use spools with the SS Jetjis setup. The coils stay much cooler.

YouTube - Video 61 Cleanup of the Jetijs SS circuit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNaoiJpL4IU)


Also last night I made a neat find..... I was able to run a neo wheel with the transistor setup Jetjis style ( no diode from E to B ). Was interesting, it would run only in a small range, but was interesting it did work...

I also had an idea.... I was wondering if instead of an inverter, why not use a car laptop adapter? Would this work as well as using an inverter with an power inverter?

I still of yet to know how to check for the negative energy, or how to convert a battery to standard to be used on the primary side....


Oh well major progress!



Mart

theremart
03-03-2009, 02:32 AM
http://i41.tinypic.com/a3fv5k.jpg

Load testing went from 63 amp hours to 77 amp hours after 7 cycles with 11 amp loads. Something I noticed on the last EFTV video there is I did not see a 4001 diode on the bicycle wheel which I found interesting.... as it looks like Jetijs setup. Tonight I tried another circuit with a wheel without the 4001 diode and worked well.

I have just completed a hybrid newman / bedini circuit still doing tests with it.

My next test is I want to try to use laptop car adaptors to see if I can charge as well without the inverter... from a neg charged battery.

A question I have is this, is the SSG output the same as a bridge rectifier accross the coil as teslas output.... also.... can one use solid state to generate negative energy as demonstrated in the last video......

Still trying to do experimentally what John is saying...

mart:cheers:

theremart
03-14-2009, 05:18 PM
YouTube - Video 63 Daftman's Bedini Newman Hybrid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSYxBwjrGv4)

Very happy with results.:thumbsup:

shubhamforme
03-27-2009, 05:26 PM
Ok,

Can you take a standard Bedini schematic and show us where you are moving the wires around to?

Thanks for sharing, does it increase the charge rate?

Mart:cheers:

hi can you give me some more information on the small circuit {the basic Bedini self oscillator circuit}

available here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3082-solid-state-bedini-5.html
i am trying to make a radiant energy charger through which i can recharge aa,aaa ,and 9v bat plus 12v 8amp battery's
pls help
thx
shubhamforme@gmail.com

Joit
03-27-2009, 07:10 PM
Hi and :welcome: then.

You maybe wanna look into the Big Joule Thief Thread too,
it is anyhow easier to made as a Solid State Bedini, and you can get good Results for charging Batteries too.

Blue_Serge
03-28-2009, 11:12 PM
I been building and testing these solid state bedini circuits and had a question about the cap dump. Bedini keeps saying that it should be mostly a high voltage dump to the battery but after doing some test with a 10uf 600v cap to the battery it does not charge as well. If I were to use a 27000mfd 20v caps I would get a slow charge but not a fast charge rate. I was wondering what is the best method to charge a 12Ah 12v battery? High Voltage or high capacitance? Also this battery has been conditioned by a Bedini monopole motor quite a few times already.

Thanks.

theremart
03-29-2009, 01:30 AM
Hi and :welcome: then.

You maybe wanna look into the Big Joule Thief Thread too,
it is anyhow easier to made as a Solid State Bedini, and you can get good Results for charging Batteries too.

I agree with you 100%. If you need to charge larger than what the Joule thief can handle I suggest you go with Jetijs circuit. Much easier to build, and proven to work!. I have gotten the one from FEG book to work, but took me MANY more hours than the circuit Jetijs has done or the Joule thief.

I have done 24 with the Joule thief as a test but my single transistor got mighty warm. I had to keep it down to 1/2 amp but it did a super job of charging, just be sure to have a fuse inline...

http://i39.tinypic.com/2me8kqw.gif

theremart
03-29-2009, 01:35 AM
I been building and testing these solid state bedini circuits and had a question about the cap dump. Bedini keeps saying that it should be mostly a high voltage dump to the battery but after doing some test with a 10uf 600v cap to the battery it does not charge as well. If I were to use a 27000mfd 20v caps I would get a slow charge but not a fast charge rate. I was wondering what is the best method to charge a 12Ah 12v battery? High Voltage or high capacitance? Also this battery has been conditioned by a Bedini monopole motor quite a few times already.

Thanks.

I have found that my 12 ah batteries do fantastic on the Jetijs charger with 5 transistors. I charge them up to 15 / 16 V then they have a resting voltage of like 13.2 - 13.4 V on all 4 of them.

As for the cap dump, others have hinted to me that the larger caps are better, as for the voltage other say to have the voltage dump just a few volts over the battery voltage, which from my testing is the way to go..

:cheers:

Blue_Serge
03-30-2009, 06:19 AM
I do get a faster and better charge with the multipule transistors and putting the output directly to positive terminal. If I do the cap dump, is that just regular current flowing back to the battery from the cap? Tom Bearden in the FEG book talks about e-amp effect if you discharge the cap to the battery fast enough. Has anyone noticed this effect?

dambit
03-30-2009, 11:12 AM
I do get a faster and better charge with the multipule transistors and putting the output directly to positive terminal. If I do the cap dump, is that just regular current flowing back to the battery from the cap? Tom Bearden in the FEG book talks about e-amp effect if you discharge the cap to the battery fast enough. Has anyone noticed this effect?

The way I see it is that when using a cap dump setup, the battery only sees a positive (regular) electricity input whereas the caps themselves are what is converting the radient to regular power. IMO the cap dump setup is not necessary when charging regular regargable batteries, car batteries etc, but would be perfect for charging li-po's and other temperamental battery types. The types that utilise voltage spike protection.

Cheers,

Steve.

cowboyrx
04-02-2009, 01:15 PM
Is this the complete and final parts list for Jetjis quint-filer charger?

1 - 50 ohm 25 watt resistor
5 - 2n2055 transistors
20 - 1n4007 diodes (4 for each transistor)
5 strands of 450 turn 23AWG magnet wire, wound together

Or would it be better to get this retail unit for $99 (adjustable voltages/current)?
Solar Converters Bd-2 Battery Desulfator - Desulfators @ AltE (http://store.altestore.com/Batteries/Desulfators/Solar-Converters-Bd-2-Battery-Desulfator/p1224/)

theremart
04-02-2009, 04:09 PM
Is this the complete and final parts list for Jetjis quint-filer charger?

1 - 50 ohm 25 watt resistor
5 - 2n2055 transistors
20 - 1n4007 diodes (4 for each transistor)
5 strands of 450 turn 23AWG magnet wire, wound together

Or would it be better to get this retail unit for $99 (adjustable voltages/current)?
Solar Converters Bd-2 Battery Desulfator - Desulfators @ AltE (http://store.altestore.com/Batteries/Desulfators/Solar-Converters-Bd-2-Battery-Desulfator/p1224/)


I do not know. I have not had this to know how good it is.

BUT.... on that page it does give an EXCELLENT idea about fixing a sulfated battery by using a coil.... interesting...

vzon17
04-04-2009, 05:59 AM
I have a question about trifilar or bifilar windings .

When making a coil does it transfer more radiant energy if you twist the bifilar or trifilar wires together before winding on the coil?

I have made a couple coils before with the wire just wound on there together at the same time to make a bifilar coil, but wonder if twisitng them together would be better. I don't want to waste a bunch of wire testing it out myself.

thanks for any pointers on this.
From the looks of the photos and videos of bedinis motors they appear to be twisted together. Would require a lot more work to do it that way. Is it worth it.

V

vzon17
04-04-2009, 06:04 AM
I was wondering when capturing the radiant energy from a collapsing magnetic field, do you get more coming in if the magnetic field is open ended so it extends into space around the coil, or will a collapsing magnetic field inside a closed loop core such as a torriod work just as well?

much of the magnetic field stays inide the toroid core so there is not as much space exposed to magnetic filed in that case.

V

theremart
04-04-2009, 03:22 PM
I have a question about trifilar or bifilar windings .

When making a coil does it transfer more radiant energy if you twist the bifilar or trifilar wires together before winding on the coil?

I have made a couple coils before with the wire just wound on there together at the same time to make a bifilar coil, but wonder if twisitng them together would be better. I don't want to waste a bunch of wire testing it out myself.

thanks for any pointers on this.
From the looks of the photos and videos of bedinis motors they appear to be twisted together. Would require a lot more work to do it that way. Is it worth it.

V


Erwin twist his wires, see his page.. here

Erwin's Work Shop (http://www.fight-4-truth.com/Work%20Shop.html)

He states that it is to bring the impedance down.

The easy way is to fill your spool of wire with the three wires, so you know you have the right amount, then take it outside, tie the wire to a tree then goto the other end and twist it with a drill being careful not to over tighten. Erwin goes into more detail about this on his page..

I have done it because Bedini does it, have not test it to understand the difference between the two..

theremart
04-04-2009, 03:24 PM
I was wondering when capturing the radiant energy from a collapsing magnetic field, do you get more coming in if the magnetic field is open ended so it extends into space around the coil, or will a collapsing magnetic field inside a closed loop core such as a torriod work just as well?

much of the magnetic field stays inide the toroid core so there is not as much space exposed to magnetic filed in that case.

V

That would make a nice test let us know if you do this :) There are millions of variations one can do, but life is so so short :) But I am eager to hear how others results go.

gmeast
04-20-2009, 08:27 PM
Hi everyone,

I'm building the charging circuit from page 46 of the "Circuits & Schematics" book. I'm using the updated Figure 33 that came as a loose insert with the book.

The coil is a tri-filer and all wires are the same size according to the Fig. The Fig says #23, could find that so I'm using #22. Is this the same charger being discussed here? If so, are there any suggestions before I get started? Much appreciated if you do.

Thanks in advance,

Greg

Jetijs
04-20-2009, 08:43 PM
Greg, this topic is about many different Bedini solid state chargers, including the one you are about to build. I guess that the only thing that I can advice id to make a coil so that cores can be changed. This helps a lot :)
Also, you might want to make a coil with more than three strands. The extra strands wont influence anything (I think) but they will become handy if you decide to juice the charger up a bit so that it uses more current and is capable to charge bigger batteries faster :)

gmeast
04-20-2009, 10:09 PM
Greg, this topic is about many different Bedini solid state chargers, including the one you are about to build. I guess that the only thing that I can advice id to make a coil so that cores can be changed. This helps a lot :)
Also, you might want to make a coil with more than three strands. The extra strands wont influence anything (I think) but they will become handy if you decide to juice the charger up a bit so that it uses more current and is capable to charge bigger batteries faster :)

Hi Jetijs,

Thanks for those tips. The wire shipped today and I'll also receive it today and was going to twist the three strands when received but now I'll twist four...thanks!

What do you suggest is a good size and proportion for the coil/spool?

Thanks and take care,

Greg

Jetijs
04-20-2009, 10:36 PM
Gregm you are welcome :)
I don't really know about the coil proportions, every single coil that I made worked just fine and there was no problems in getting the thing to oscillate. All my coils are about 100mm tall and the core is 10-15mm in diameter. I got coils with turn count as low as 200 and up to 600. They all work well. But I would suggest at least 450 turns or more. Because at higher turn count the trigger winding will induce greater greater current and turn on the transistor more easily. With small turn count you might need to "help" the coil to start oscillating by waving a magnet near the core. Of course it all depends on which circuit you will be using, there are quite a few shown in this thread :)
Good luck!

gmeast
04-21-2009, 11:21 PM
@ Jetijs ,

Has it been determined that any of the Bedini Solid State chargers have a cop>1? Talking to Peter Lindemann, he conveyed that the first S.G. Motor indeed had a cop>1. Do you know if it is only the motor-based chargers that go >1?

Thanks,

Greg

Jetijs
04-21-2009, 11:33 PM
Greg, I have never observed COP>1 on any of my replications. I have also not heard of COP>1 using solid state circuits. If I had to build a new Bedini charger to achieve COP>1 I would not go with solid state. I would use the Super pole magnet configuration and grounding rod connected to the positive terminal of the charging battery via a diode. Of course the batteries would need to be conditioned first. This is the config that I think would give great results and possibly get you a COP>1. I use the solid state chargers only to get some old batteries to new life and increase their capacity as much as possible :)

dambit
04-22-2009, 12:56 AM
@ Jetijs ,

Has it been determined that any of the Bedini Solid State chargers have a cop>1? Talking to Peter Lindemann, he conveyed that the first S.G. Motor indeed had a cop>1. Do you know if it is only the motor-based chargers that go >1?

Thanks,

Greg


Hi Greg,

The chargers themselves will almost never exhibit COP>1, because we can't measure the radient. The extra energy is made up in the batteries. IMO the only true way to measure the benifit of these chargers is to measure and compare the discharge rates of identicle batteries, first new and then conditioned.

At least until we get a radient amp meter. :rofl:

Cheers,

Steve

Mavrick23
04-22-2009, 03:40 AM
Hi Greg,

The chargers themselves will almost never exhibit COP>1, because we can't measure the radient. The extra energy is made up in the batteries. IMO the only true way to measure the benifit of these chargers is to measure and compare the discharge rates of identicle batteries, first new and then conditioned.

At least until we get a radient amp meter. :rofl:

Cheers,

Steve

I may be missing something as I am not real experienced in this though I have built several solid state and monopole energizers. I believe the COP of a system includes the batteries and would be determined by the power from the primary, compared to the power out of the battery in a load test that is repeated untill you have stablized results. It is also known that a well conditioned battery will give better results than one that is not conditioned. But why would you establish the cop of a system by comparing different batteries?

Michael L

nilrehob
04-22-2009, 06:48 AM
Has anyone noticed the effect proposed by lamare?
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/962-use-tesla-switch-8.html#post51885

Charging of caps should be done in series, and dumping in parallel.

I did some tests (later in same thread) and it seems rather interesting! :thumbsup:

It's very strange, this simple principle seems to work text-book-wise, in a simulator and even in real life, so I must be doing something wrong :p
So please tell me in which way this is erroneous because I can't figure it out!

dambit
04-22-2009, 12:49 PM
I may be missing something as I am not real experienced in this though I have built several solid state and monopole energizers. I believe the COP of a system includes the batteries and would be determined by the power from the primary, compared to the power out of the battery in a load test that is repeated untill you have stablized results. It is also known that a well conditioned battery will give better results than one that is not conditioned. But why would you establish the cop of a system by comparing different batteries?

Michael L

Hi,

You are correct. I did leave out the power supplied to charge the batteries Vs power out from charged batteries. Oh and the comparison of new and conditioned batteries is only that, a comparison.

In my defence I had only been awake for 20min when I wrote that. Opps :rofl:

Cheers,

Steve

Mark
04-22-2009, 06:57 PM
Hey guys,

Discovered something different today. I have a coil with 1 26awg triggar and (3) 20awg power windings. I was running my supper pole ssg with just 2 of the windings and could here it start to oscilate (spell) and would stop the rotor. Now my input amp would go up but so would the charge battery so I'd run it like that awhile. Then I decided to take one of the other power wires and put it in series with the first one. The amp draw went down and my charge rate and spike went up. So I added the last wire in series and the amp draw droped again and spike got even higher. I can chage a 250 volt cap to over 450 volts in just a couple of seconds. Has anyone else tried this?
I was going to add more transistors to the other wires but dont see any reason too.

Aaron
04-22-2009, 07:05 PM
Mark,

I would use bigger caps...overcharging caps can make them explode like little sticks of dynamite.

I have done similar with my multifilar coils...putting the windings in series and even wiring them like Tesla bifilar style, which I don't think anyone else is doing that I've seen.

Mark
04-22-2009, 07:17 PM
LOL, Yea I know I have bigger caps but dont normally unhook my charge battery just wanted to see how fast my cap was charging. I only had the wire off for maybe 2 seconds and it was already to 400 volts. Thanks for the caution I have had a cap blow before and it scared the crap out of me!

gmeast
04-22-2009, 08:00 PM
Hi all,

I'm sure I bought the wrong caps. What should be the voltage ratings for the caps used in the solid state circuit of Figure 33 from page 46 of the "Circuits and Schematics" book? I have the corrected version (loose insert came with my book).

3.3uF = ?
1 uF = ?

Now the 1uF cap is shown as non-electrolytic, yes? What type ... big polyester film, orange drop, or what?

Thanks in advance,

Greg

Jetijs
04-22-2009, 09:48 PM
Greg, the 1uF cap can be any type of cap, its only purpose is to set the 555 timer frequency. In this case only the capacity is important. The bigger the capacity, the smaller the 555 chip signal frequency. I am not sure about the 3.3uF cap, should probably be a cap that can discharge very fast. I would try something like polypropylene film pulse caps. :)

N O G
04-23-2009, 01:07 PM
(SSG circuit )(for experienced builders/not for begginers )The best results i found a while ago was to forward feed the trigger for soild state mode making the coil fire like the motor runs (no continuous firing/meaning there is a 0 volts time between the two firing times/most times standard SSG circuits that SELF resonate let the current catch up giving fluffy charges) This was done by connecting a resistor in between the power wire negative terminal on coil and base and a resistor between the input negative and the base, added to a standard SSG setup (around 33kohms on coil side and 22kohms on other side/start with higher resistances of course and KEEP higher resistance on coil side)the coil side resistor lets a small amount of current to the base the other helps limit that flow so the SSG circuit HAS to have an on/off switch on the positive input to the coil or the transistor will GET HOT OR BURN UP from the current to the base through the extra two resistors (mostly if the motor is switched on and not firing/BEWARE/this happens usally when the normal trigger resistance is to low)This is best adapted to a rotor SSG circuit that runs and your familiar with in tuning.It is best tuned with a 1kohm1watt or higher potentiometer and a resistor on the normal trigger setup(this works opposite to the normal adjustments in this solid state setup/more resistance equals more input amps till there's a level out).So its a balance between normal tuning and the two extra resistors aswell .Once you find the balance you'll see definite 0 volts between firing thats adjustable in width from the normal trigger resistance once on and running (ive got some circuits that can be adjusted from one pulse every half second to multiple pulses per millisecond) ( normal SSG setup is better with rotor but this solid state setup can run a rotor/aswell as air core solid state and multicoil setups as i have built them all) When adjusted right you can connect a solar panel and a cap (about 20000uf) to the input (the benefit is as the sun first comes up the cap fills and turns the solid state SSG on till the cap runs out so you are utilizing the panel before it has enough potential to charge that battery and when the panel can it will simply keep going and riding on the solar panels changing output throughout the day and doing what it did in the morning in the afternoon as the sun goes down) with the panel setup you can leave the on/off switch on overnight.This runs good of a power pack aswell.Loads discharged at(c/20) on charged batteries preform very good.A normal few hundred turn bifiler coil on average will use about half an amp roughly in this setup and will charge up to 7ah batteries most times at a good rate(depends on the battery)...hope my ideas help...

Hoppy
04-23-2009, 06:02 PM
Hey guys,

I can chage a 250 volt cap to over 450 volts in just a couple of seconds. Has anyone else tried this?
I was going to add more transistors to the other wires but dont see any reason too.

Mark

This is fine for for conditioning batteries but if you intend to charge a big battery bank then multi-strand / transistor working is needed to generate the necessary high voltage and sufficient current to charge a battery bank at a practical rate. High voltage with little current will take a long time to charge big batteries. Also, go for forward triggering as Nog suggests.

A low current / high voltage energiser will lower the internal resistance of a battery by desulfation - even a new battery - over a large number of charge / discharge cycles. Although this will allow the energiser to charge a battery quicker as it becomes progressively conditioned over many cycles, the charge rate will primarily depend on the available charging current. It is therefore a matter of building the energiser / charger powerful enough to charge at an acceptable rate for the required application.

Hoppy

N O G
05-01-2009, 04:54 AM
...Just letting everyone know part 10 has been released...

wwdotme
10-06-2009, 04:04 PM
Hi all
I'm running 2 SS's in parrelel.( basicly 2 SSG's with higher resistants to get an oscilation)
My question is teh frequency goes up and down pulling about 100 mA difference in the supply. Is this adjustable by changing resistance around?
when it goes high my charge Volts jump almost half a volt.

Thanks WW

dambit
10-07-2009, 10:36 PM
(SSG circuit )(for experienced builders/not for begginers )The best results i found a while ago was to forward feed the trigger for soild state mode making the coil fire like the motor runs (no continuous firing/meaning there is a 0 volts time between the two firing times/most times standard SSG circuits that SELF resonate let the current catch up giving fluffy charges) This was done by connecting a resistor in between the power wire negative terminal on coil and base and a resistor between the input negative and the base, added to a standard SSG setup (around 33kohms on coil side and 22kohms on other side/start with higher resistances of course and KEEP higher resistance on coil side)the coil side resistor lets a small amount of current to the base the other helps limit that flow so the SSG circuit HAS to have an on/off switch on the positive input to the coil or the transistor will GET HOT OR BURN UP from the current to the base through the extra two resistors (mostly if the motor is switched on and not firing/BEWARE/this happens usally when the normal trigger resistance is to low)This is best adapted to a rotor SSG circuit that runs and your familiar with in tuning.It is best tuned with a 1kohm1watt or higher potentiometer and a resistor on the normal trigger setup(this works opposite to the normal adjustments in this solid state setup/more resistance equals more input amps till there's a level out).So its a balance between normal tuning and the two extra resistors aswell .Once you find the balance you'll see definite 0 volts between firing thats adjustable in width from the normal trigger resistance once on and running (ive got some circuits that can be adjusted from one pulse every half second to multiple pulses per millisecond) ( normal SSG setup is better with rotor but this solid state setup can run a rotor/aswell as air core solid state and multicoil setups as i have built them all) When adjusted right you can connect a solar panel and a cap (about 20000uf) to the input (the benefit is as the sun first comes up the cap fills and turns the solid state SSG on till the cap runs out so you are utilizing the panel before it has enough potential to charge that battery and when the panel can it will simply keep going and riding on the solar panels changing output throughout the day and doing what it did in the morning in the afternoon as the sun goes down) with the panel setup you can leave the on/off switch on overnight.This runs good of a power pack aswell.Loads discharged at(c/20) on charged batteries preform very good.A normal few hundred turn bifiler coil on average will use about half an amp roughly in this setup and will charge up to 7ah batteries most times at a good rate(depends on the battery)...hope my ideas help...

Hi NOG,

Do you have a schematic for this setup? As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.:thumbsup:

Cheers,

Steve.

pvar06
10-09-2009, 06:31 PM
Hi Jetijs,

I have replicated the page46 circuit of FEG Book. Currently kept one bettery for testing and it is slowly improving.

Just I came across your classic circuit so thought of replicating and testing it at my end. I did the following

1. I have used Trifilar coil [as it was readily available - I have made this for page46 diagram]. It is 23 AWG 450 turns. The size of spool is 4 inch long and inner pipe is 1/2 inch diameter. The core is made using welding electrodes.

2. I have used 3 nos 180 Ohm 2 Watt resistor in prallel at one end of trigger coil. So the total value of these resistor was around 60 Ohms.

3. I have used 3 Nos 1n4007 Diodes along with each transistor.

4. Insatalled the Ampere meter at input side. The power is supplied through 240-12volts 3.5 Amps SMPS power supply.

When I have started the circuit then the coil has not started oscillating the there was no current draw. However the magnetic field were observed at the core. So as mentioned in your old post, I have waved neo magnet around the core to make it oscillate but there was no improvement.

After that I have placed one 100 ohm 2 Watt resistor between one transistors collector and base. Immdiately after that the coil started oscillating and circuit was drawing 1.9 Amps. But on running the circuit for around 10 minute the 100 ohm resistor was hot and the 3 Nos 180 ohm resistors [on trigger coil] was little warm. However the battery voltage suddenly rised from 11.69 volts to 12.03 volts and i could see the 'cold boiling' inside the battery.

But how to run this circuit without any resistor between collector and base of transistor i.e. how to make it self start without resistor. Also please let me know, if i want to place a resistor between collector and base of each transistor then what should be value for the same and wattage.

Thanks in advance.

Regards

Praveen

Sephiroth
10-09-2009, 06:46 PM
Hi Jetijs,


But how to run this circuit without any resistor between collector and base of transistor i.e. how to make it self start without resistor. Also please let me know, if i want to place a resistor between collector and base of each transistor then what should be value for the same and wattage.

Thanks in advance.

Regards

Praveen

I'm pretty sure the collector-base resistor is necessary for the circuit to self start/force oscillation. Though the best resistor to choose would be the highest resistance you can use and the device will still self start. even 20k ohms may work, so there will be very little energy leaked.

pvar06
10-10-2009, 04:25 AM
Hi,

Thanks for reply.

Yesterday late night I have used various resistors on one of the transistor. Following are the testing

1. 100 Ohm 2 watt resistor was heating up too much.

2. 100 Ohm 2 Watt and 180 Ohm 2 Watt placed in parallel. But this was taking power around 3.4 Amps. Also resistor was heating much.

3. 100 K 1/2 W resistor was not oscillating the coil.

4. Finally placed 1k 1/2 Watt [2 Nos] in parallel. With this circuit was oscillating and running cool.

But morning when i have checked the battery then the battery has not gone above 12.71 volts [the last reading was at 200 hrs in night which was 12.71 volts], So virtually there was not much change between 200 hrs to 900 hrs [Morning].

Do I need to place the resistor on each transistors used in the circuit or any one will be ok.

Tonight I will try other values like 10k, 20k etc.

Regards

Praveen

Sephiroth
10-10-2009, 07:42 AM
Hi,

Thanks for reply.

Yesterday late night I have used various resistors on one of the transistor. Following are the testing

1. 100 Ohm 2 watt resistor was heating up too much.

2. 100 Ohm 2 Watt and 180 Ohm 2 Watt placed in parallel. But this was taking power around 3.4 Amps. Also resistor was heating much.

3. 100 K 1/2 W resistor was not oscillating the coil.

4. Finally placed 1k 1/2 Watt [2 Nos] in parallel. With this circuit was oscillating and running cool.

But morning when i have checked the battery then the battery has not gone above 12.71 volts [the last reading was at 200 hrs in night which was 12.71 volts], So virtually there was not much change between 200 hrs to 900 hrs [Morning].

Do I need to place the resistor on each transistors used in the circuit or any one will be ok.

Tonight I will try other values like 10k, 20k etc.

Regards

Praveen

only one resistor is required for the collector-base, though when using a multi transistor set up you would have a separate base resistor for each transistor (I normally use 100 ohms on each transistor). All the base resistors can be connected together in parallel, and then the collector-base resistor can be connected where the base resistors join together. This makes sure all the transistors are triggered evenly. Also, as you add more transistors, you will need to lower the value of the collector-base resistor to allow enough current through to trigger all the transistors. For example, if 20k worked well with a single transistor circuit, then you would use 10k on a double transistor circuit.

pvar06
10-12-2009, 06:20 AM
Hi Seph and all,

Thanks for your post.

I have tried various resistors on transistor. The 10k was not oscillating the coil, however 100ohm was getting overheated. So finally placed 500ohm (2 Nos 1k 1w resistor in parallel) on each transistor. So every thing is working fine and cool.

I have kept a bettery on this circuit. Today morning i have ocmpleted 33 hrs of charging. The battery voltage immidiately climbs upto the 13.99-14.05 volts (within 1 hours of charging). The details are as given below:

1. During charging time the battery voltage abserved in range of 13.99 to 14.05 volts.

2. When circuit is switched off then the battery voltage observed was 13.27 volts but constantly going down.

3. I have kept the battery for 30 minutes away from the circuit. The voltage dropped from 13.27 volts to 12.56 volts.

4. During the charging process seen lot of bubbles are coming out from the battery cells. Earlier the bubbles was big now they are becoming more finer (i think it is due to removal of sulphate layer from top edge of electrode plates). So this gives me satisfaction that atleast something is happening.

5. When I took the battery, it was completely dead. During that time i have seen lot of white deposit on top edge of the battery electrodes. Now after 33-34 hrs charging the quantity of white deposit is getting reduced.

6. During the charging I could not see any improvement in the gravity of the battery.

I dont know, what kind of charging is taking place. Have some little hope as the battery is bubbling and white layer is being removed. But concerned about no increase in the gravity.

Any ideas - What is happening inside the battery.:rofl:

Regards

Praveen

Sephiroth
10-12-2009, 07:22 AM
Hi Seph and all,

Thanks for your post.

I have tried various resistors on transistor. The 10k was not oscillating the coil, however 100ohm was getting overheated. So finally placed 500ohm (2 Nos 1k 1w resistor in parallel) on each transistor. So every thing is working fine and cool.

I have kept a bettery on this circuit. Today morning i have ocmpleted 33 hrs of charging. The battery voltage immidiately climbs upto the 13.99-14.05 volts (within 1 hours of charging). The details are as given below:

1. During charging time the battery voltage abserved in range of 13.99 to 14.05 volts.

2. When circuit is switched off then the battery voltage observed was 13.27 volts but constantly going down.

3. I have kept the battery for 30 minutes away from the circuit. The voltage dropped from 13.27 volts to 12.56 volts.

4. During the charging process seen lot of bubbles are coming out from the battery cells. Earlier the bubbles was big now they are becoming more finer (i think it is due to removal of sulphate layer from top edge of electrode plates). So this gives me satisfaction that atleast something is happening.

5. When I took the battery, it was completely dead. During that time i have seen lot of white deposit on top edge of the battery electrodes. Now after 33-34 hrs charging the quantity of white deposit is getting reduced.

6. During the charging I could not see any improvement in the gravity of the battery.

I dont know, what kind of charging is taking place. Have some little hope as the battery is bubbling and white layer is being removed. But concerned about no increase in the gravity.

Any ideas - What is happening inside the battery.:rofl:

Regards

Praveen

Those are very big jumps in voltage. What size are your batteries and do you know the oscillator's amp draw?

pvar06
10-12-2009, 06:27 PM
Hi Seph,

I am testing 12 Volt 35 Ah battery. For measuring the oscillator current draw I have installed a analog ampere meter in series at input side. This meter is constantly showing 2 Amps.

Regards

Praveen

Sephiroth
10-12-2009, 06:34 PM
Hi Seph,

I am testing 12 Volt 35 Ah battery. For measuring the oscillator current draw I have installed a analog ampere meter in series at input side. This meter is constantly showing 2 Amps.

Regards

Praveen

That's a little high for a 35ah battery... if you were to use the C20 rate for the battery your max current draw should be 1.75 amps... I'm not criticizing :) it sounds like your oscillator is desulphating the battery nicely :D

pvar06
10-12-2009, 06:37 PM
Hi Speh,

Actually there was no way in Jetijs circuit by which I can adjust the current draw to the circuit. So just running it as it is.

I am just hoping that the battery is getting desulpheted as lot of bubbles are coming out from the cells.

Regards

Praveen

dambit
10-13-2009, 05:20 AM
Hi Speh,

Actually there was no way in Jetijs circuit by which I can adjust the current draw to the circuit. So just running it as it is.

I am just hoping that the battery is getting desulpheted as lot of bubbles are coming out from the cells.

Regards

Praveen

Sure there is, just use a variable resistor in place of a fixed one infront of the base. I do it all the time. This way I can adjust my charger for all battery sizes.:thumbsup:

Make sure it is rated for enough wattage though.

Cheers Steve

SkyWatcher
10-13-2009, 12:19 PM
Hi folks, I'm reading over this thread and I noticed Jetijs's circuit looks like a Joule Thief only without toroid. With my JT, the transistor gets way hotter than it should using only a darlington pair in this case, so thats why I'm using just a 555 to pulse my coils. Is Jetjs having this problem or maybe its because I'm using a bifilar with 18 gauge wire, which may be too much for the base of the transistor or the voltage aspect. And no raising base resistor only increases frequency and still gets darn hot. The 555 pulser is working great, though i would rather have a self oscillator that worked without overheating transistors. Any thoughts appreciated.
peace love light
Tyson:sun: