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Cyrus
10-09-2008, 01:39 AM
Hey fellas.

Does anyone have any idea how it is possible to make a pulse motor much like how bedini is to have high torque? or at least higher?

Im about to try and use both poles on the coils to spin rotors that are on the same shaft and see if it will improve torque. The rotors are gunna get cnc'ed soon and i plan to use IGBT Fast Switching HGTG27N1200 1200V 72A transistors to power the coils with higher power.


but if anyone has any ideas (good or bad doesnt matter) please let me know.


Thanks. :blowout:

theremart
10-09-2008, 01:47 AM
The Bedini is not really designed for hi torque, as Bedini has said himself if you try to go for torque you will give up charge.

I attempted High torque with mass ( 6lbs of magnets and PVC ) and was somewhat successful. Ren, had the most scary one with his EXTRA LARGE BAY WINDOW MONSTER MOTOR :D

I guess one could use multiples of coils and a flywheel to go after torque, but I have had limited success in pursuing it.

Perhaps the Adams motor may be a better way to head...

:thumbsup:

tecknomancer
10-09-2008, 01:58 AM
This is just an idea but if you use the coils to charge Capacitors then make a second set of electromagnets fire opposite the pulse or sequentially :thinking: it may improve torque. I have been thinking how to solve this exact problem but nothing built yet:sshh:

Shamus
10-09-2008, 02:10 AM
A multicoil arrangement that is set up to fire sequentially instead of all at the same time is another approach to developing torque with a Bedini style energizer. My replication of the top half of his eight coil turntable setup that he shows in EFTV2 is the only setup that I've seen able to develop some decent torque, and it's the only one that I can give the rotor a tiny push to get it to take off. I think even more torque can be developed using this arrangement to fire more coils in the "off time" of the others.

If that's as clear as mud, I'll post some pictures. It's harder to explain the concept with words than pictures. :)

Cyrus
10-09-2008, 05:04 AM
Perhaps the Adams motor may be a better way to head...


Ive never looked at the adams motor but after a quick search it seems to be very similar to bedini's. Its hard to even see a difference other than instead of using a trigger wire adam uses something else like a reed switch?



Shamus the pulse motor ill be making is going to be just like you say (sequentially). The rotor will have 6 circular holes on one side and the other side will have 6 holes but offset so the holes are between the other side's holes. The stator however will have 7-8 coils on it so it makes that sequential. If that makes sense.. Look at the attachment if u wana see what is being made.



Dont mind me telling you about what ill be making. IF anyone has any ideas on creating torque please be free to tell me because my plans can always be changed.

kniteowl
10-09-2008, 05:51 AM
If you want high/higher torque, you have to build the window motor. If you read all the notes, and threads from JB as well as all those who have built big machine, the normal SSG style is normally called an energizer and not really meant to be a motor, it has marginal torque, but potentially high speed, and the only work that should be perform with it is most likely to add a fan blade to it. It was never meant to do torquey ;) things. It is an energizer with a little motor function.

The window motor (notice, it is called a motor not an energizer) will give you torque to do more work, and still give you charging feature, however it is much harder and require more work than the SSG style. Not really meant for someone new at it, but worth it if you can do it. As theremart stated earlier, Ren probable has the most experience in this case and I would have to say that he has one of the best example of this one.

ren
10-09-2008, 06:18 AM
(Window motor currently being re-assembled with hardcore bearings due to safety concerns @ high speed:D)

Cyrus make sure you do your homework before you pay $$$$ for a machined rotor. :thumbsup:

Matthew Jones
10-09-2008, 01:28 PM
You could just stack several Bedini motors in circle. Build each with a trigger and 2 extra wires. Make them semi pie shaped so they could surround the wheel.
Say if you had 16 coils around a wheel with 4 magnets you may develop a little torque. The magnets would not have dead spot between coils firing. But I don't know how that would effect the charging.

Matt

peper10
10-09-2008, 04:22 PM
I don`t want to play disturbance here.
But Radiant1 have a verry promissing setup(for the torque part).
I know he is not here anymore,but,i think the setup he ad must have another
look.
With a little research i know that reorganized geometic coils,it can be possible
to have added torque by 30%.
I revisit THETRUTHBEEKNOWN on YOUTUBE and with direct impulse with
verry strong neodinium magnets he have 4X the impulse..
Greater the impulse=more torque apply on the flywheel..
That is just my oppinion!!!!

Alain D:cheers:

Cyrus
10-09-2008, 05:22 PM
Cyrus make sure you do your homework before you pay $$$$ for a machined rotor. :thumbsup:

Machining the rotor will be free only thing thats gunna cost me is the material which is about $30 for a round aluminum rod 8in diameter by 1in thick.

One thing that got me thinking pulse motors will work is this: YouTube - TIGA 可変界磁モーター  variable field magnet motor  Solar Car (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_41btVawMc)

Btw kniteowl is this the window motor your talking about? If so it seems much like a pulse motor but instead it activates on both sides at once or something similar to one side pushing and the other side pulling. YouTube - Window 36v (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWyobLflcM&feature=related)


Can anyone clarify in simple terms? :dance:

Cyrus
10-09-2008, 05:24 PM
I don`t want to play disturbance here.
But Radiant1 have a verry promissing setup(for the torque part).
I know he is not here anymore,but,i think the setup he ad must have another
look.
With a little research i know that reorganized geometic coils,it can be possible
to have added torque by 30%.
I revisit THETRUTHBEEKNOWN on YOUTUBE and with direct impulse with
verry strong neodinium magnets he have 4X the impulse..
Greater the impulse=more torque apply on the flywheel..
That is just my oppinion!!!!

Alain D:cheers:

peper do you have any videos relating to this? :clap:

peper10
10-09-2008, 05:28 PM
Yes!Go to Mecanicaly driven pulse motor tread.
This tread is an unfinish biseness and i think it`s worth another look.:thumbsup:

peper10
10-09-2008, 05:42 PM
I don`t know how to put a direct link to the tread?
Anyway i give you a pic to better understand the setup.
And as i mention earlier,by reoriented the coils a couple of degre past 90,
like 120 degre,you could have the impulse stronger by 30%.1308

Alain D:cheers:

ren
10-09-2008, 07:25 PM
Machining the rotor will be free only thing thats gunna cost me is the material which is about $30 for a round aluminum rod 8in diameter by 1in thick.



Btw kniteowl is this the window motor your talking about? If so it seems much like a pulse motor but instead it activates on both sides at once or something similar to one side pushing and the other side pulling. YouTube - Window 36v (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWyobLflcM&feature=related)


Can anyone clarify in simple terms? :dance:

Cool, always handy if you can get the work done for free. The window motor you see in the video above is one way you can build it. It allow for interaction on both poles (in this case 180 degree opposites) with every pulse. There is no core in the stator, eliminating losses associated with cores in general. This pretty much eliminates cogging too, and it should be obvious that this motor can act like a generator as well. And the coil is very cleverly switched, it allows bi directional current flow through the power coil. Current flows both ways...hmmmm. Essentially the batteries terminals are being flip flopped over the coils terminals every pulse. Or the coil is unwound and rewound in opposition each pulse:rolleyes:

Magnets are spinning in the "A" field of the conductor. (Google). With a little imagination Im sure you could figure out multiple coils around the rotor. There are so many different configurations.

Cyrus
10-10-2008, 12:55 AM
I don`t know how to put a direct link to the tread?
Anyway i give you a pic to better understand the setup.
And as i mention earlier,by reoriented the coils a couple of degre past 90,
like 120 degre,you could have the impulse stronger by 30%.1308

Peper thats pretty much what im going to do but instead of having 4 coils ill have 7 or 8. My plans are set for 8 atm but i still have more testing to do on the stator. MY coils however will each be connected individually so they will not be linked to another power coil on the opposite side like that image displays. :thumbsup:

Ren thats pretty interesting stuff. Not having a core to worry about is definitely something to look into. Can you link me to a source where i can read up into this in more detail? Ive tried google it but i have only found replications.

Also ren you reminded me of something when you talked about cores. Does anyone know of good core material and sources to buy them? So far through all my research ive found this info about possible cores to use:

1. Muller's amorphous polycrystalline core material - no details


2. magnetite composite - no details


3. Diamagnetic materials
Certain materials are diamagnetic, which means that when they are exposed to a strong magnetic field, they induce a weak magnetic field in the opposite direction. In other words, they weakly repel a strong magnet. Some have been used in simple levitation demonstrations.

Strongest
Bismuth and carbon graphite are the strongest diamagnetic materials. They are about eight times stronger than mercury and silver. Other weaker diamagnetic materials include water, diamonds, wood and living tissue. Note that the last three items are carbon-based.


Now if anyone can find a place where i can buy some of this stuff let me know.

Shamus
10-10-2008, 02:57 AM
Here's a picture of my four-pole monopole to illustrate the concept: The coils are positioned so that two coils are always firing in-between the travel of one magnet to the next, from the POV of a stator coil. In other words, with eight magnets around a rotor, you normally have 45 degrees of travel between magnets. But by putting a pair of coils (or a single coil for that matter) at 22.5 degrees, you double the kick that the rotor would normally get from a standard configuration. By extending this concept you can develop even more torque. You might want to draw your rotor/stator configuration with the magnets aligned with various coils to get an idea of exactly when things will be firing to know what to expect with that configuration. :thumbsup:

Of course you can get good torque from a properly built window motor, but where's the challenge in that? ;)

Cyrus
10-10-2008, 10:58 PM
This is my setup.

The yellow circles, except the middle one, are the cores of the coils. Rotor has 6 magnets each and stator has 8 coils.
ImageShack - Hosting :: topviewpulsemotorzd0.gif (http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=topviewpulsemotorzd0.gif)




And this image is the side view showing how the 2 rotors are connected to a shaft and between them are the coil spools on the stator.

ImageShack - Hosting :: sideviewpulsemotoroq7.gif (http://img205.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sideviewpulsemotoroq7.gif)



Then all goes in a pretty housing like so:

ImageShack - Hosting :: rotorhousingfinishedtk8.gif (http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rotorhousingfinishedtk8.gif)

Shamus
10-11-2008, 01:59 AM
Interesting design; it should deliver some pretty good torque in this configuration. Interesting to note that while the wheel turns counterclockwise, the coil firing pattern will be clockwise. Let us know how it works out for you. :thumbsup:

Cyrus
10-12-2008, 04:59 AM
Has anyone tried connecting the radiant output to something that collects the energy fast like a capacitor and feeding back that energy into powering the power coil?

:notworthy: Any positive results?

Cyrus
10-15-2008, 05:48 AM
I have ran a test to see what i could do with the radiant output from the bedini circuit. I took the positive from the output and connected it to the positive wire on the power coil. What happened was the amp reading suddenly dropped from .40amps to .09amps and the rotor slowed down a bit (not much at all).

Does anyone have any idea what is going on?

elias
10-15-2008, 06:48 AM
Hi

I think that a Bedini/Muller Combination would have high torque. You can use two wheels, to utilize the magnetic fields of the both ends of the coils, ie. the south and north poles simultaneously. Mine broke and I am going to reconstruct it. I was using an aluminum shaft and the neo magnets broke the shaft at high speed. I have plans for reconstructing it in the coming weeks.

Good Luck

Joit
10-15-2008, 07:22 AM
I have ran a test to see what i could do with the radiant output from the bedini circuit. I took the positive from the output and connected it to the positive wire on the power coil. What happened was the amp reading suddenly dropped from .40amps to .09amps and the rotor slowed down a bit (not much at all).

Does anyone have any idea what is going on?

Just guessing,
that the fluxfields faceing now to eachother, or your 2 Coils summarize Lenz law.
And connecting a thin wire to a Thick works like a Transformator.
You could try to switch the Ends your 2nd Coil, maybe it changes back to 0,4 Amps.

Cyrus
10-15-2008, 09:38 PM
k thanks for the input.


Ive also spent some time thinking of the relationship between magnet strength and coil cores. I'll need some confirmation on this if possible. Ive come up with a conclusion that since the bedini motor is an attraction motor. Most of the actual torque comes from the magnet attraction force on the core of the coil when the rotor rotates the magnets by the coil core. And that the pulse we push through the coil is only making a neutral effect on that magnet attraction so the rotor wont slow down. In this case will it benefit more if the magnets are stronger and the core is bigger so that the attraction force is greater and thus more torque? The power to the coil will have to also be stepped up but since it is only used to turn the attraction to neutral it wont use up much power.

Would anyone like to tell me if my conclusion is accurate?

Shamus
10-16-2008, 03:03 AM
That certainly sounds reasonable; but there's only one way to know for sure. ;)

Also, when the coil is pushing away the north facing magnet it's also simultaneously attracting in the scalar south, so that coil pulse isn't really a neutral effect. :)

tjnlsn255
10-16-2008, 10:57 AM
If you are looking for torque check out theDaftman's latest youtube video...

Is there a Newman motor thread?

Torque is a good thing but requires amps........:thumbsup:

Todd