As soon as the hydrogen goes in.............

[jstadwater]

Hello RedMeanie and all,

Glad to hear you recovered OK from that storm RedMeanie, we had Fay that went through Naples FL here last week, but we got lucky with very minimal damage. I have a few questions you guys may (or not) be able to help me with. I have the RedMeanie PWM installed and it functions fine. I have the RedMeanie dual-efie installed also, running the engine (5.7liter Vortec, 96 Suburban) on gasoline only, I get three clicks down (lean) from full-factory and the engine starts to stumble coming to a stop. But still no accelleration problems. SO, it is obviously telling the computer to cut back the fuel injectors. LED lights still flash and no service engine light. I did have to change the 470uF down to 100uF on the EFIEs (as suggested) because the warm up time was about 6 minutes, now is about 50 seconds. The 6 minute wait time had the computer richening up the mix trying to find a signal, just like RedMeanie mentioned in the documentation. Actually had black smoke from the tail-pipe, shorter warm up fixed that. HERE IS MY PROBLEM, as soon as I switch on the hydrogen booster, the EFIEs LEDs go out and the engine light comes on shortly after. The computer sets 4 codes, two for oxygen sensor 1 and 2 "no activity". And then two codes that say "bank 1 LEAN" and "bank 2 LEAN". This happens no matter where I set the 6 position rotary switch of the EFIEs. Is it possible the burn in the cyliders goes too lean too quickly for the EFIEs to compensate? The LEDs do NOT come back on until a few minutes after I turn off the hydro-boost, then they stay on solid for a few minutes before they start to flash again. But now I have no control because the computer is open-loop with the service engine light on, right? Also in the document it states the LEDs should stay lit when you rev the engine up and go off for a bit when you let off the throttle. With increased throttle, my LEDs flash faster but do not become solid lit. All bench tests were performed "exactly" as per the latest document with perfect bench results on both EFIEs in each step of testing. If anyone can help me determine which direction I go from here, I would be most appreciative indeed! Hopefully someone else has already overcame a similar problem and can help me with this one. Good day to all, as the testing continues................................

Mike, Florida

[jstadwater]

Hello again, 75 views and still no replies? Can someone please take a stab at this and help me out a little? All replies and insights are welcome, even PM's, this REALLY needs to work. Thanks.................................Mike

[Redmeanie]

The Lean error codes are not going to go away....The reason this is happening is the extra Oxygen present because of the HHO not because of anything wrong. I have had good results with using the O2 sensor Non Fouler Mod on all the O2 sensors to help keep the CEL from triggering.

[jstadwater]

@ RedMeanie

So, if I put the non-foulers in the exhaust stream, still using the EFIEs, what effect will that have on the ACTUAL gasoline input to the engine? Will the EFIEs still tune back the gasoline the same as without the non-foulers, the non-foulers are just helping to keep the CEL off? I thought the EFIEs interacted with the signal between o2 and computer to modify the o2 signal enough to keep the computer reading a normal signal throughout the o2's range of operation. But as I now understand, it only modifies the signal on preset levels of 50mV, so as long as we have a normal o2 signal output the computer stays closed loop and we can cycle through the six positions of the rotary switch thus fooling the computer into leaning back the gasoline. When the exhaust goes lean due to adding hho, the o2 sensor signal goes completely off scale, the computer no longer receives ANY signal IN RANGE from the sensors (sensor 1 & 2 "no activity" trouble codes), CEL comes on putting the computer into open loop "limp home mode". Now the computer is ignoring the signals it should be getting from the o2 sensors (thus rendering the EFIEs inoperable) and running on the preset factory values installed in the computer so the engine doesn't quit running due to the detected "lean problem" and you can still make it to the nearest service center. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the very problem the EFIE was designed to correct so that we could run an hho booster? My next question is, is there a way to change or adjust the EFIEs to compensate for this or am I beating a dead horse? If I adjust the sensitivity (VR1) to turn on the LED at .1V instead of .5V, having VR2 to still output 1V, (or will that work?) would that put me further into the readable "lean" range than I am now? Since I am INSTANTLY turning the exhaust LEAN with the hho I'm feeding it, maybe I just need a more sensitive voltage "range" to operate in. Any help or ideas are welcome at this point. I'm considering spending the money and trying to find an on board system that will interact with and reprogram curves and values in the computer itself, if that's easily do-able. Will probably be somewhat expensive though. If I come off a little harsh, I apologize, I don't mean to be. I have worked full time for the last two months designing a system that will efficiently deliver hho into the engine. As soon as the o2 sensor system can be succesfully overcome, I will share what I have been working on. Until I can get some verifyable numbers, I don't consider my work impressive enough to post, maybe I'll get it right soon. Thanks to everyone, and have a great day...........................Mike, Florida

[west_beach]

foulers

The foulers will move the o2 sensor out and away from the flow of excess oxygen from your booster. That is the goal. It may work.

If you can get the o2 sensor to read less oxygen, your CEL may not come on. Your o2 sensor will be happy around .45 volts, and then your efie will lean out the mix.

Good luck.

I believe you should disconnect your battery after making these adjustments to clear the computer.

[ANTIQUER]

O2 sensors

Hey Mike and West Beach;

Don't know if you have read this so thought I'd post it here for you.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post18172

Mike, that whole thread is worth reading; might help solve your problem.

Al

[jstadwater]

Hello everyone,

Here's what I changed most recently, better results so far, more testing and tuning tomorrow. I reset the EFIE sensitivity (VR1) from .5 volts down to .2 volts and left the output to ECM (VR2) set at 1 volt. I figure that since the normal o2 sensor volt range is from 0 to 1 volt, the EFIE was set at the half-way point to keep the ECM happy. The reason my CEL comes on with the addition of HHO is that the PEAK of the voltage range coming from the o2 sensors drops and stays BELOW .5 volts (the LEDs CAN'T come on, so the ECM gets zero volts, then sets codes). Today's test at HALF (about 7 amps draw) of my normal HHO production showed a peak o2 sensor output at idle, of about .4 and a low end reading of about (-) negative .210 or so. So I reset VR1 to about half-way to zero volts based on that reading. Test drove it for about half an hour with NO problems accellerating, cruising 55mph, or coming to a stop. No stumbling or hesitation, all smooth, LEDs still flashing, and...............NO CHECK ENGINE LIGHT! I got the above voltage reading from the o2 sensor itself and then measured the "output" to ECM after it goes through the EFIEs, the voltage fluctuations were about the same as in the normal "gasoline only" operating range. I had previously checked it with no HHO and with EFIE bypassed. I did a brief test with my booster at full output and the o2 sensor voltage was in the range of about negative .650 volts to barely above zero volts at peak, maybe .1..................NOW THAT'S LEAN!!! Only problem is, I don't know how far down the EFIEs will adjust without changing some of the components on the boards (have no clue which values to change), I will find out more tomorrow. I intend to "tune" it as far down as it will let me go, and still function! Also, a few other interesting readings with the HHO running. Temp guage shows to be down from 205 to around 165. Hand-held laser verified thermostat housing temp at 160, valve cover temp down about 30 degrees, oil pan temp also down 30 to 40 degrees. Here's my favorite one, tested exhaust system temps before and after HHO. Tested and recorded 6 locations, front to back, about 100 degrees COOLER across the whole system!!! These are very exciting prelimenary results, I will be testing all week, more to come I'm sure. MPG gains will also be tested this week, I will post them when I am satisfied the numbers are correct. The beast only gets 10 mpg, on a good day, on "gasoline only". We'll see how far we can turn that up. Will post more tomorrow, about time to go home and eat dinner.

Later................Mike

[Redmeanie]

Hello everyone,

Here's what I changed most recently, better results so far, more testing and tuning tomorrow. I reset the EFIE sensitivity (VR1) from .5 volts down to .2 volts and left the output to ECM (VR2) set at 1 volt. I figure that since the normal o2 sensor volt range is from 0 to 1 volt, the EFIE was set at the half-way point to keep the ECM happy. The reason my CEL comes on with the addition of HHO is that the PEAK of the voltage range coming from the o2 sensors drops and stays BELOW .5 volts (the LEDs CAN'T come on, so the ECM gets zero volts, then sets codes). Today's test at HALF (about 7 amps draw) of my normal HHO production showed a peak o2 sensor output at idle, of about .4 and a low end reading of about (-) negative .210 or so. So I reset VR1 to about half-way to zero volts based on that reading. Test drove it for about half an hour with NO problems accellerating, cruising 55mph, or coming to a stop. No stumbling or hesitation, all smooth, LEDs still flashing, and...............NO CHECK ENGINE LIGHT! I got the above voltage reading from the o2 sensor itself and then measured the "output" to ECM after it goes through the EFIEs, the voltage fluctuations were about the same as in the normal "gasoline only" operating range. I had previously checked it with no HHO and with EFIE bypassed. I did a brief test with my booster at full output and the o2 sensor voltage was in the range of about negative .650 volts to barely above zero volts at peak, maybe .1..................NOW THAT'S LEAN!!! Only problem is, I don't know how far down the EFIEs will adjust without changing some of the components on the boards (have no clue which values to change), I will find out more tomorrow. I intend to "tune" it as far down as it will let me go, and still function! Also, a few other interesting readings with the HHO running. Temp guage shows to be down from 205 to around 165. Hand-held laser verified thermostat housing temp at 160, valve cover temp down about 30 degrees, oil pan temp also down 30 to 40 degrees. Here's my favorite one, tested exhaust system temps before and after HHO. Tested and recorded 6 locations, front to back, about 100 degrees COOLER across the whole system!!! These are very exciting prelimenary results, I will be testing all week, more to come I'm sure. MPG gains will also be tested this week, I will post them when I am satisfied the numbers are correct. The beast only gets 10 mpg, on a good day, on "gasoline only". We'll see how far we can turn that up. Will post more tomorrow, about time to go home and eat dinner.

Later................Mike

Mike,
You can adjust VR1 down to to zero and still get the 50mv drop with each lean selection. I have never done it, but it can be done. The CEL's that appear "Usually" are triggered by the after Cat O2 sensors, and even if necessary the precat O2's can be moved out of the direct path of the exhaust using the spacers, and still function. I have seen these trigger especially with High Output Boosters. Fortunately this code is unlikely to shift the ECU into open loop, it is just annoying.
Keep up the good work!
Im glad to see someone really interested in how the circuit functions....The beauty of electronic signals is ANY signal can be intercepted and altered, its just figuring out "How" to do it that makes it a challenge!

[wpage]

Hang in there

Keep at it Mike! It is a struggle to get it right. Remember the Auto engineers have been testing for generations and look what weve gotten

You may want to look into the Scan Gauge product. JC Whitney has them for $159.00 and usually offers free shipping from time to time. This product helps alot with real time monitoring and clearing codes.

Wish I could tell you more. At this point working thru fine tuning issues with my efie + HHO booster and fuel mixtures. The final solutions are still out there...

Keep on thinking free!

W

[jstadwater]

@ RedMeanie & wpage,

Thanks for the words of encouragement! As I said, I will continue testing to see how good I can get this tuned in. Maybe after I get all the parameters figured out I can offer some ways to help others to figure out how to tweak in their systems. I will absolutely post more later today, thanks guys. Later............................................M ike

[jstadwater]

Still at it................

Just tuned the EFIEs VR1 down to .140 volts to turn on the LEDs (VR2 output to ECM still set at 1.0 volt). Now I am able to run at idle with my booster system drawing 12 amps and still stay in closed-loop! LEDs still flash away and keep the ECM in it's "happy-voltage" range, while the ACTUAL o2 signal is WAY below it's range!! My actual (close as I can measure) o2 signal voltage now ranges from about negative .375 to around positive .280 peak. Again, I set VR1 at about halfway to zero volts from my peak reading with HHO running. It seems to like it just fine, another road test upcoming. As RedMeanie stated, "The beauty of electronic signals....". Thanks to all you guys, I have learned alot these last couple months, still learning, still lovin' it!!

@RedMeanie

Thank you for the oportunity to play with and figure out these circuit boards. I had almost NO electronics knowledge when I first set out on this adventure. As soon as I am comfortable with my CURRENT (pun intended) results, I intend to get back to work on putting "THE" sparkplug circuit into operation. First on a test engine, then in addition on the HHO engine. Pending test results at that point, how hard would it be to change the operating range of the EFIE rotary switch from 50mv per click to say, 100mv per click? Just looking ahead at the possibility of needing a wider range of operation.

Thanks again to everyone working on these projects, together we WILL make a dramatic difference!
More to come...............................Mike

[wpage]

Good news

Mike,
Congratulations on your progress.

Experimenting research and reading between the lines of some of the available data is the key to success with energy study.

When Edison Firestone Ford & others first developed the electric car to get away from horse crap in the streets of citys. They were tricked by factors including WWI and big oil to abandon the original intent.
Its going to take a lot to make the changes to swing this motive technology to where it needs to be. People are ready for change. However most will only do it when its convenient.

Up to you and others here to make it happen. For a better future.
Dont give up...

W

[jstadwater]

Running at idle was fine with the above settings, but when I drove it the engine light came back on. So I cut back my booster draw from 12 amps to only 10 amps. Then set the rotary switch on the third click, so I could go both ways with adjustment. I tuned VR1 to .100 volts and then tuned VR2 to output 1.15 volts to the ECM instead of 1.00. I am happy with the test drive just completed, even took it onto the interstate and drove 70 mph and then back through town. Check engine light stayed OFF the entire time and it ran as good or better than it ever did! I am going back to interstate in a few minutes to do a mile per gallon test at these settings. I will post my readings when I get back, wish me luck.

Mike

[jstadwater]

Tested repeatedly for fuel mileage out on interstate. Ran the Suburban (7,200 pounds curb weight 4X4) till it quit, pulled off to the side and put in ONE gallon of 87 octane regular gasoline, ran it till it quit again. Another gallon, repeat procedure. Owner's manual states it requires premium instead of regular. Tests on gasoline only showed between 10 and 11 MPG, tests with booster system drawing 10 amps was 16.5 MPG average! This includes throttle up to interstate speed each time to keep from getting ran over by tractor and trailers! That is about 50% mpg increase, and it's not running full capacity of hydro production or fine tuned yet. I just ordered a live reading data logger + ECM reprogrammer via a laptop. I'm tired of guessing what sensor readings I am changing, and to what degree. With these promissing numbers, it's time to get serious and REALLY tune this baby in! I figure if I know what sensor readings change at different settings, I may be able to build a few "cheap" pieces of electronics to just change what I need to and use the data logger to verify my settings run correctly. Then I can pass that info on to everyone else. Those tests were all completed without the engine light coming on, booster pulling about 10 amps. When I pump up the hho production further, the engine light still comes on because it drops the o2 sensor readings too low for me to compensate reliably with the equipment I have here at the moment. The cure should arrive tomorrow, according to the tracking number info. May take me a few days to get the programmer to do exactly what I want it to, but I'll post more results as soon as I get it figured out. Happy testing to everyone, later...................................Mike