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Sephiroth
08-23-2008, 03:32 PM
Hi Everyone,

As you know I recently got myself an oscilloscope!

Here are a few shots from the scope.

Firstly, here is a fairly standard H-Wave which you would expect to see when there is no load (ie. the charging battery is disconnected)

1013

and here are some anomylous waves that I don't quite yet understand!

This one shows a delayed "Off Pulse" (flyback). You see the coil turns on around TDC (Top Dead Centre - when the magnet is directly over the stator) then turns off, then there is a pause, then the flyback shows up! No idea how that is happening.

1035

and these shows a resonating "off pulse", or rather a series of spikes... very odd... only shows up when using two coils with thier recovery windings wired in series and using a reed switch as a trigger.

1033

1034

Any comments on the anomylous scope shots would be appreciated, but feel free to ignore me and use this thread upload your own shots! :D

Bodkins
08-23-2008, 04:04 PM
hi Sephiroth
First can i thank you for the youtube presentation of the bedini setup it help me noend.:notworthy:

with the bedini setup at first i could never get the tigger to work, So i used a Ossie Callan (Think thats his name cant remember) setup with a reed switch trying to ossilate the reed with a small magnet for more pulses per pass.
I didnt have a oscilloscope at the time but Attachment 1033 maybe what i would have seen!

Would it be possible to get some info for you Sephiroth i dont now how to work out frequency with the scope what the calclations i need to do?
working on the fan and imhotep light charger also got a 555 Noise-Maker Kit > Maplin (http://www.maplin.co.uk/NOISE_MAKERS.search) which is useful tool

Once again :thanks: Sephiroth you made alot of difference in my understanding of the setup.

Sephiroth
08-23-2008, 04:45 PM
Glad you liked the vids :thumbsup:

Lots of wierd stuff is showing up using the reed switch as a trigger :rofl: unfortunatly I can't get a decent photo of some of them.

Both theDaftman and ktservicekorp appear to have achieved overunity with the reed switch... really want to see what I can do with a hall sensor but don't have one lying around at the moment :(

Another scope shot. This time from my toroidial oscillator currently drawing 70ma.

1036

I haven't seen a high resolution scope shot of the oscillator's wave before so not sure if this is normal or not! Looks good though! :thumbsup:

Sephiroth
08-23-2008, 04:56 PM
hi Sephiroth
Would it be possible to get some info for you Sephiroth i dont now how to work out frequency with the scope what the calclations i need to do?


whoops, missed that question! sorry.

I'm not absolutly sure yet how to work out the frequency

I believe the "Time" dial relates to the amount of time there is per square on the screen. Once you know the time there is between the start of one pulse and the start of the next pulse you can then work out frequency by how many pulses there are per second. (eg. 100 pulses per second = 100 hertz)

though the fine tuning dial on the time dial has left me a bit confused as to how much time there actually is between pulses :rofl: It's probably really simple but I need to do some more reading :thumbsup:

Sephiroth
08-24-2008, 06:05 PM
ok, I have been studying the waveforms from my solid state oscillator and I think I have found the ideal wave. Haven't seen this posted anywhere so it may be useful!

1047

If I increase the resistance slightly it will go chaotic. If I decrease the resistance the curve on the bottom representing the ON time levels out and resembles the wave I posted earlier.

I think I understand what is happening but if any of you learned individuals would like to jump in with some coaching feel free!

What I see happening is almost like an electromagnetic equivellant of a pendulum.

when the transistor turns on it charges the coil and then turns off. The voltage then "swings" (like a pendulum) in the opposite direction and we extract a little bit of energy from the swinging. the voltage then swings back in the direction it originally came from and when it reaches the apex we give it a little nudge (turn the transistor on to charge the coil) to maintain the swinging motion (the oscillation).

We want to provide just enough of a nudge to maintain the oscillation so I have tuned the oscillator to turn off when the voltage reaches it's peak, just slightly after the bottom curve levels out as this indicates the coil has reached saturation.

Don't know how you are supposed to tune a solid state oscillator without an oscilloscope! I love it!!!! :fingerdance:

Performing COP tests at the moment but it is looking good!

Sephiroth
08-24-2008, 07:01 PM
I think I worked out the frequency though the ideal frequency will probably vary from model to model... but just for the record, the scope shot above is showing the oscillator resonating at 3.3333 kilohertz (exactly 30 microseconds between start of pulses)

The transistor's ON time is approx 5 microseconds.

theremart
08-24-2008, 08:31 PM
You are looking at your wave form via AC not DC...

I was getting jealous of how high your spikes were getting! :-)

It is like getting a new set of eyes when you get a scope, what I am myself am trying to do is pair up the scope with my voltage readings on the target battery, whenever i see a sharp rise in the charging battery voltage, I like to run over and look at the scope to see what the wave form looks like. I am trying various voltages to see what makes the target battery seem to rise the best.

The trouble I see with my approach is, what is the rise in voltage came from the wave form just before the rise in charge, and not the one I am looking at...

I like your thoughts about a pendulum, I try to picture a tank of water that can be shaken, creating ripples in the water. Hmmm makes me think if we were to turn on the transistor for only one time, would the wave form be different than our continual stream of waves?.....

I would to hear from others their interpretation of what the scope has to read as well.

Sephiroth
08-24-2008, 08:42 PM
You are looking at your wave form via AC not DC...

I was getting jealous of how high your spikes were getting! :-)

I don't understand what you mean :confused:

This is the waveform across the coil (ie. positive lead connected to the collector and negative to the positive of the primary battery.)

Hmmm makes me think if we were to turn on the transistor for only one time, would the wave form be different than our continual stream of waves?.....

I believe that if we were to turn on the transistor only once then a sine wave will follow that gradually diminishs. Like if we left a pendulum to swing without any extra input the swings will get lower and lower until it stops.

I would also like to hear other peoples views on the scope shots :thumbsup:

Do you have any high resolution shots of your SS? I have seen the ones on the solid state thread though can you stretch the wave out please? :)

gmeat
08-24-2008, 09:18 PM
Hi guys,



The problem I have with visualizing electricity is this.How do we visualize this charge in terms of length or space.I mean there is no formula that I know of that does this,Another words if I put a charge on a wire at what point along that wire does the electric disipate into no more electric on that wire,Does it happen 100 feet down the wire or does it happen 32 miles down the wire or does it happen at 32 trillion miles down the wire.heres another thought I have.How do I visualize whats happening in that wire, Is it like 100 people standing in a line and the guy at the rear pushes the guy in front of him and so it is like a domino affect until the push reaches the front of the line,Or is it like pushing a long 2x4 that is equal to the length of the 100 person long line where the charge moves instantaneously:thinking: . This is the part of electicity that confuses me.I mean if I charge up 10 capacitors that are in series on a wire or if I charge up 100 capacitors in series how much more electric does it really take to do this.Is it solely because of resistance that I have to put more electric to accomplish the above example.Let me stop rambling on because maybe I just dont understand enough:confused: .SMW seems to explain the scope shots in a very easy to understand way.Dont beat me down to bad for my thoughts on electric lol.


-Gary

theremart
08-24-2008, 10:31 PM
I don't understand what you mean :confused:

This is the waveform across the coil (ie. positive lead connected to the collector and negative to the positive of the primary battery.)



I believe that if we were to turn on the transistor only once then a sine wave will follow that gradually diminishs. Like if we left a pendulum to swing without any extra input the swings will get lower and lower until it stops.

I would also like to hear other peoples views on the scope shots :thumbsup:

Do you have any high resolution shots of your SS? I have seen the ones on the solid state thread though can you stretch the wave out please? :)

RE: AC / DC

on my scope I don't know about yours there is a toggle to switch between AC and DC viewing of the signal. I believe since looking at your waveform you are saying the center of the wave is 0V. Thus I take it to mean you have the position of the switch on AC?!? Just trying to figure it out..

As for the SS shots. Yes I can probably do that... I have made a video of the shots I was getting, and I think the video camera does more justice to the view than the stills I have put up.

Mart

Sephiroth
08-24-2008, 10:54 PM
not sure what that switch is for :D the wave is identical either way it is set :rolleyes:

theremart
08-25-2008, 01:10 AM
Hi guys,



The problem I have with visualizing electricity is this.How do we visualize this charge in terms of length or space.I mean there is no formula that I know of that does this,Another words if I put a charge on a wire at what point along that wire does the electric disipate into no more electric on that wire,Does it happen 100 feet down the wire or does it happen 32 miles down the wire or does it happen at 32 trillion miles down the wire.heres another thought I have.How do I visualize whats happening in that wire, Is it like 100 people standing in a line and the guy at the rear pushes the guy in front of him and so it is like a domino affect until the push reaches the front of the line,Or is it like pushing a long 2x4 that is equal to the length of the 100 person long line where the charge moves instantaneously:thinking: . This is the part of electicity that confuses me.I mean if I charge up 10 capacitors that are in series on a wire or if I charge up 100 capacitors in series how much more electric does it really take to do this.Is it solely because of resistance that I have to put more electric to accomplish the above example.Let me stop rambling on because maybe I just dont understand enough:confused: .SMW seems to explain the scope shots in a very easy to understand way.Dont beat me down to bad for my thoughts on electric lol.


-Gary

I think you have the same fuzzy feeling I do about electricity. I remember when in Physics class I asked about what causes gravity? The first answer I got was gravity was relative to mass. I then asked again, what causes that, the answer was I don't know. I guess just like that we can observe the effects, but it is very hard to get to root of the very hard questions...

The idea I had of electricity is like your domino idea only with like billiard balls each hitting one another.

I guess this theory part is where Tom Beardon has stayed and struggled with. Many brilliant minds have struggled with this, and have come up with some great theories, but it seems each one is lacking to explain the whole equation, and how each of the billiard balls move.

The question that John Bedini asks on the video 2 of Energy from the Vacuum, has had me digging, who said this is an amper.... I have read biographies on Faraday, and I am very very impressed with the first developments of the first motors. It was much like today were many people came together and shared their ideas of how electricity worked, and keep getting more and more advanced theories.

I guess High School chemistry is where I got my notions of how electrons move in orbit. It seems the more you dig, the more the pioneer you are as very few people look beyond the pages of what has already been written.

gmeat
08-25-2008, 01:41 AM
I think you have the same fuzzy feeling I do about electricity. I remember when in Physics class I asked about what causes gravity? The first answer I got was gravity was relative to mass. I then asked again, what causes that, the answer was I don't know. I guess just like that we can observe the effects, but it is very hard to get to root of the very hard questions...

The idea I had of electricity is like your domino idea only with like billiard balls each hitting one another.

I guess this theory part is where Tom Beardon has stayed and struggled with. Many brilliant minds have struggled with this, and have come up with some great theories, but it seems each one is lacking to explain the whole equation, and how each of the billiard balls move.

The question that John Bedini asks on the video 2 of Energy from the Vacuum, has had me digging, who said this is an amper.... I have read biographies on Faraday, and I am very very impressed with the first developments of the first motors. It was much like today were many people came together and shared their ideas of how electricity worked, and keep getting more and more advanced theories.

I guess High School chemistry is where I got my notions of how electrons move in orbit. It seems the more you dig, the more the pioneer you are as very few people look beyond the pages of what has already been written.


Hi Mart,


Thx for the reply.I like to ask questions to try to develop an understanding of how things work,And sometimes there is no clear answer to the question.I also view electricity like you in as far as billiard balls pushing into each other but I have a feeling that all those balls are touching each other so that when you move 1 you move them all.Of course I could be wrong but,It's nice to make this stuff up as I go :rofl: lol.



-Gary

Sephiroth
09-09-2008, 07:45 PM
I've noticed something interesting while studying a few different configurations on my energizer...

These are some approximate sketches of my waveforms from my energizer which currently have two seperate coils. Figure 1 shows the wave when the recovery coils are in series and Figure 2 shows the wave when the recovery coils are in parellel.

1145

Now, obviously this doesn't mean that only 6 volts is being output by the first configuration and 12 by the second. The output on both these cofigurations will be almost identical ie. They will be just above the voltage of the charging battery. Let's say 12 volts.

But here is where it gets interesting! Both of these configurations are outputting at the same level, however the first configuration is outputing 12 volts for twice the time! Isn't that interesting...

But it gets just a little bit better... doesn't the prolonged output of the first configuration indicate that the magnetic field from the coil being energized is also prolonged and thus gives us some extra work by continuing to repel the rotor magnet for a longer time after the supply voltage has been cut off?

Maybe I am just misinterpreting the scope shots so if anyone would like correct me please do!!! :notworthy:

RotogenRay
09-09-2008, 08:58 PM
You know, in doing experiments with so called "open circuits. Take a high voltage transformer- don't do this at home...

I might say "I took" a high voltage transformer 2-4kv (a microwave transformer) hook one end of the output side to an antenna (I used 100 feet of coax cable strung up in trees around my house, but any large terminal capacitance should work) and the other end hook in series with a tiny spark gap to ground.

When turned on the gap fires- why? Erm, I've heard capacitance between the output aerial and ground- but come on. Its in the trees, it gets nowhere near ground, you shouldn't be able to dielectrically store anything short of millions of volts in the space between the wire and ground, the electric field simply doesn't extend that far.

So I'm left to theorize, but as well I've found that running the circuit in this way produces anomalous voltages in anomalous places. A sheet of aluminum foil hung on my wall not touching anything but wall will light a neon bulb to some degree- and you can get neons at the hardware store- they have the candle shaped cathodes and produce a simulated candlelight. But I looked at the ambient sine wave on my scope- it has those same huge peaks. About 2 or 3times the peak line voltage.

I can't explain this, except to connect it to the bedini motor phenoms.

tjnlsn255
09-09-2008, 09:39 PM
To add to the visualization ..... is electricity the jumping of electrons in one direction or is it the holes created when the electron jumps... or does it really jump at all?

In a wave of water in the ocean is the wave always the same water traveling along or is the wave moving new water molecules up and down in a ripple effect.... very interesting stuff.....:thumbsup:

Hi Mart,


Thx for the reply.I like to ask questions to try to develop an understanding of how things work,And sometimes there is no clear answer to the question.I also view electricity like you in as far as billiard balls pushing into each other but I have a feeling that all those balls are touching each other so that when you move 1 you move them all.Of course I could be wrong but,It's nice to make this stuff up as I go :rofl: lol.



-Gary

Sephiroth
09-10-2008, 06:11 PM
ok... it looks like it takes more than sketches to get a reaction out of you guys so here are the scope shots of the recovery coils in parellel, 2 in series, and 3 in series....

1152

The first shot shows 2 seperate coils with thier primary windings wired in series and then the recovery windings are wired in parellel (step down transformer). Notice the flyback's height is twice the input but lasts for less than a quarter of the time.

The next shot shows 2 seperate coils with their primaries wired in parellel and the recovery wired in series. Notice that the flyback's height is half the input but lasts for approximatly the same time.

The last shots shows 3 seperate coils with their primaries wired in parellel and the recovery wired in series. Notice that the flyback's height is a third of the input but now its time EXCEEDS the input.

All of these configurations will have the same output voltage from the recovery winding which will be just over the charging voltage (not including the initial spike).

Sooooooo..... it appears the more recovery windings we hook up in series (the higher the step up ratio of the transformer) the greater the output.

Another interesting thing I noted is that my theory that the magnetic field exists for a longer period of time appears to be correct and does appear to increase the power in the rotor. When I had it configured as it was in the second scope shot my max RPM was 3360 with approx 360ma input.

Once I added the third coil my max RPM has gone up to 3600 and my amp draw is now only 320ma.

When properly tuned the flyback always appears to terminate when the stator is directly between the magnets. So if we force the flyback to exists for a longer period of time then I am guessing the magnetic field also exists for a longer time. and if the flyback has to terminate at that specific point then we can use a shorter "on" time to get the same amount of power out of the rotor.

At least that is what I think :D


Come on guys! Has no one else noticed this!?

mrbreau
09-10-2008, 06:26 PM
Being a relative new-b at all this the only thing I see is what is missing on MY scope shots. For example, I can never see the radiant spike. Your second shot shows an enormous radiant spike, IMO, and I think THAT is what we are after, the radiant spike to charge batteries. :cheers:

It is too bad I'm caught up in other occupations at the moment and have only a fan motor running to charge a battery. I'm not liking the ratio of draw vs charge, 230mA : 12.3mA. :thinking:

I like the shots and the explainations. You guys with some experience help enlighten me as to what I am seeing when I scope a circuit. :notworthy:

Thanks for the info. You are doing a great job, again IMO.

Warren
..

EgmQC
09-10-2008, 09:28 PM
Being a relative new-b at all this the only thing I see is what is missing on MY scope shots. For example, I can never see the radiant spike. Your second shot shows an enormous radiant spike, IMO, and I think THAT is what we are after, the radiant spike to charge batteries. :cheers:

It is too bad I'm caught up in other occupations at the moment and have only a fan motor running to charge a battery. I'm not liking the ratio of draw vs charge, 230mA : 12.3mA. :thinking:

I like the shots and the explainations. You guys with some experience help enlighten me as to what I am seeing when I scope a circuit. :notworthy:

Thanks for the info. You are doing a great job, again IMO.

Warren
..

Hi Warren,

To see the spike on you scope you have to unplug the charging battery.

Best Regards,
Eric

Sephiroth
09-10-2008, 09:46 PM
Hi Warren,

To see the spike on you scope you have to unplug the charging battery.

Best Regards,
Eric

Mine generates the spikes while the charging batteries are connected but they are alot smaller than with no load and are only visible on the primary side (on the recovery coil they are much much smaller but still present)

On a standard SSG configuration (no recovery coil) I don't think it is possible to see the spikes.

gmeat
09-10-2008, 10:33 PM
Mine generates the spikes while the charging batteries are connected but they are alot smaller than with no load and are only visible on the primary side (on the recovery coil they are much much smaller but still present)

On a standard SSG configuration (no recovery coil) I don't think it is possible to see the spikes.



Hi Sephiroth,


Are the scope shots your showing using the choke Relay on the base side of the circuit? Also if you could use a bifilar choke in place of the relay choke I would like to see some scope shots of that.Thx for all the input:thumbsup: .


-Gary

Sephiroth
09-10-2008, 10:36 PM
not using the choke at the moment... I have got a scope shot of the choke in the circuit but I'll have to find it... might just make a new one :)

Watch this space

mrbreau
09-11-2008, 02:53 AM
Hi Warren,

To see the spike on you scope you have to unplug the charging battery.

Best Regards,
Eric

My point is that in pictures two and three the spike is clearly visible passing the discharge(?) phase before connecting to it. I don't see that on my setup for some reason. And I've complained here about the *eagle's beak* that particular portion of my waveform has. That *eagle's beak* formation indicates to me that the spike doesn't pass the discharge but connects directly. I've spent a couple of months trying to get the wave to show that spike but I seem to be doing something wrong, or perhaps not right.

Whoa! This is about Seph's waveforms and not mine!! :notworthy: I probably shouldn't have said anything since I don't know very much but what I see or think I see. PAH!

Thanks Eric for you interest and reply BTW.

Warren
..

Sephiroth
09-11-2008, 06:14 AM
My point is that in pictures two and three the spike is clearly visible passing the discharge(?) phase before connecting to it. I don't see that on my setup for some reason. And I've complained here about the *eagle's beak* that particular portion of my waveform has. That *eagle's beak* formation indicates to me that the spike doesn't pass the discharge but connects directly. I've spent a couple of months trying to get the wave to show that spike but I seem to be doing something wrong, or perhaps not right.

Whoa! This is about Seph's waveforms and not mine!! :notworthy: I probably shouldn't have said anything since I don't know very much but what I see or think I see. PAH!

Thanks Eric for you interest and reply BTW.

Warren
..

This thread is for everyone's scope shots :D have you any pics of the eagle's beak?

mrbreau
09-11-2008, 01:49 PM
This is the best shot I could find of the Eagle's beak. It is a real closeup of the discharge portion of the h-wave and the *spike* is barely discernible but can be seen terminating, and not passing the beginning of the discharge.

Lee suggested that the problem "might" be in the coil and how it is wound. To date, I haven't gotten back to that particular setup as it conflicts with my personal philosophy, which is, "Work on this. Think about that." It always amazed me how an answer would come to me about some problem when I wasn't actively seeking an answer. FWIW

Warren
..

Sephiroth
09-11-2008, 06:30 PM
sorry warren, but I can't make out what I am looking at... it looks like just a portion of the wave. If it is what I think it is, then th start of the wave is where the flyback begins, then the coil becomes fully discharged an the voltage across the coil drops to "normal" levels where it is just effected by the induction from the magnets on the rotor.

But if that is what I am seeing, it looks fairly normal :confused: Are you using a recovery coil or a diode off the primary coil?

theremart
09-11-2008, 07:00 PM
Last night I thought I would hook up my scope to the 80' of coax cable I had up on the trees, and to real ground ( a 4ft of copper wire buired in the ground. I am getting wierd shots.

The scope is reporting a wave in about 60V in size each segment is at 20V, and one Milla second... when I measuer the voltage with a multi meter I get .4 V

( see attached )

mrbreau
09-11-2008, 08:38 PM
Okie-dokie. Here is another shot from a bit further back. This may be just what you need to confirm your suspicions. It just has me in a tree trying to get this thing to LOOK right. I get a fairly decent charge from the wheel but the primary battery drags right down. Then, at times, BOTH batteries will charge. :suprise:

BTW; I used Seph's video and drawings to build this unit. :notworthy:

Warren
..

Sephiroth
09-11-2008, 09:53 PM
Hi Warren,

yep that's what I thought I was looking at :D

Are you using a standard SSG coil, It looks like the kind of wave I would see on a bifilar coil with a diode coming from the negative side of the primary coil going to the charging battery

Though it looks like the primary voltage is alot higher then the charging battery's voltage and judging by the induced voltage from the rotor am I right in guessing you are either using large ceramic magnets or maybe even neos?

other than that it looks like a fairly normal wave. :) Unless you are using a recovery coil I wouldn't expect to see a spike.

I think the spike on my shots are partly due to the capacitance of the primary coil and the inductance of the recovery coil. But, again, that is just a guess. Would be nice if someone with a bit more experience with scope shots could comment ;)

Sephiroth
09-11-2008, 09:58 PM
Last night I thought I would hook up my scope to the 80' of coax cable I had up on the trees, and to real ground ( a 4ft of copper wire buired in the ground. I am getting wierd shots.

The scope is reporting a wave in about 60V in size each segment is at 20V, and one Milla second... when I measuer the voltage with a multi meter I get .4 V

( see attached )


Maybe a silly question, but is the wave still present with only 1 lead connected to either ground or your antenna?

theremart
09-11-2008, 10:42 PM
Maybe a silly question, but is the wave still present with only 1 lead connected to either ground or your antenna?

Not a silly question. It exists not with the ground, but only with the wire in the air. I tested each wire by itself connect.

Sephiroth
09-11-2008, 11:00 PM
I have noticed something similar but can't explain it :D

Perhaps something to do with the em frequencies whizzing around us all the time being picked up by the antenna, or a phantom on the scope... i dunno!

mrbreau
09-12-2008, 12:00 AM
Hi Warren,

yep that's what I thought I was looking at :D

Are you using a standard SSG coil, It looks like the kind of wave I would see on a bifilar coil with a diode coming from the negative side of the primary coil going to the charging battery
(snip)
Would be nice if someone with a bit more experience with scope shots could comment ;)

Sephiroth? Thanks for the reply. Your post poses a few questions I never even thought of asking. So, I'm going to have to set up again so I can do your questions justice.

I've asked around and posted my shots. I suppose I'm too dumb to know when the right answer is posted but I go through the motions of checking them all out. I think you MAY have put me onto something that I'll have to check out soon.

I added the underline in Sephiroth's quote.

Onward and upward! :rofl:

Warren
..

mrbreau
09-12-2008, 06:32 PM
Sephiroth? The magnets I'm using are the ones recommended; 1-7/8 x 1 x 3/8 and are c8. I've noticed that they aren't very uniform in strength and/or character. I floated mine to be sure they were all oriented the same. ;) But I still get a non-uniform wave.

After yesterday's discussion I decided to do some checking on the one coil I have intact. Sure enough, one of the windings shows a resistance and is NOT continuous. Since ALL my coils had to be spliced, I think that in itself just might be the problem.

I think I need to post this somewhere else, :whistle: in order to keep the discussion on an even keel.

Warren
..

theremart
09-13-2008, 11:02 PM
I have noticed something similar but can't explain it :D

Perhaps something to do with the em frequencies whizzing around us all the time being picked up by the antenna, or a phantom on the scope... i dunno!

Well I dunno either :confused:

Anyhow... Today I am trying to fix a battery that I was gonna junk... It is a 12 ah battery I took the top off before, but I did not see the rubber caps before on the battery ( I thought they were plastic last time ) I removed them and low behold the water was WAY low in them. Filled them up, at first got -3.28 volts, then went to 3.4 V then..... 32V lol.. They looked white with sulfate inside sooo. gonna be a while on this one... If it fails to charge I will try converting it to an alum battery.

gmeat
09-14-2008, 11:43 PM
Hi Everyone,


Sure wish someone with a scope would post some scope shots with a bifilar coil as a choke:whistle: .


-Gary

BinzerBob
09-20-2008, 12:49 PM
Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone has scope shots of the bedinni SSG at startup and mid startup and full Speed (without changing the pot.. so for one pot setting).

I don't have a scope, but I have a frequency meter. What I found is that the Frequency of the coil at startup is pretty much the same as the Frequency of the coil at full speed.

EgmQC
09-20-2008, 01:06 PM
Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone has scope shots of the bedinni SSG at startup and mid startup and full Speed (without changing the pot.. so for one pot setting).

I don't have a scope, but I have a frequency meter. What I found is that the Frequency of the coil at startup is pretty much the same as the Frequency of the coil at full speed.

Its 1 cycle per magnet pass. So RPM / Number of magnet , and / 60 and you get the frequency.

Edit : The frequency increase until the wheel reach its full speed
Best Regards,
Eric

Sephiroth
09-20-2008, 01:12 PM
One of Lee's video shows the scope as the rotor accelerates...

YouTube - Inductor In Trigger Circuit (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CETv5SyVUi0)

BinzerBob
09-21-2008, 02:02 PM
Thanks for the reply... very interesting to see that U Tube Video and explanation. LED Strobe Light very interesting concept, that allows us to see us where we are on the H Wave as the motor turns.

N O G
10-01-2008, 11:30 AM
Hi there, just thought id send one of my scope shots off one of my SSG energizers .:thumbsup:

Bodkins
10-01-2008, 12:48 PM
Hi All:thumbsup:
Thanks Sephiroth for this thread:thumbsup: .
Would like to add my scope shot of a strange effect!!
I have a fan ignition coil and CLF bulbs setup, the fan is in oscillation with the ignition coil and the secondly of the ignition coil lights the bulbs.
the thing is, i have the negative of the scope to the postive of the ignition coil(grounded connection) and on the negative of the clf bulb i have a insulated antenna with a strange diode and cap setup (wind connection).
If i tune the fan i can fill the cap make the light get brighter and lower the ampdraw!!!!!
Lidmotor Nat1971a and Boxa888 are all working on this, we believe we are walking in the footsteps of TESLA :notworthy:

Also you can do cool tricks with the lights
YouTube - Bodkins 4 lamp trick! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpcM4smCBG8)
More info go here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2209-earth-battery-sg.html

BinzerBob
10-29-2008, 03:14 PM
Hello all... I just got a scope and started to poke around the bedini motor and my small pulse motor.

What I have done, which I don't see much talk about , is that I have put a 1 ohm resistor in series with the charging battery. I take my scope prob and view the voltage across the 1 ohm resistor. This now gives me the amperage spikes going into the battery (V=IR so the I=V/R here in my case the R=1 so I=V shown on the scope).

Because I did not have a scope before I was using amp meters to view the amperage... anyway, what I found is that the amp meters do a good job of displaying the average amperage in the circuit. Actually they do it really good job like within 5% accuracy. How I verified this was that I basically intergrated the scope shot curve and over its period and divided it by the same time period to get the average value as determined by the scope and then looked at the amp meter and they were very close to each other!!!

I will send some pictures of what I mean soon or relatively soon.. but I thought that this info might help someone who doesn't have a scope.

Sephiroth
10-29-2008, 06:37 PM
Hi BinzerBob,

Thanks for bringing that up! :thumbsup:
I found that technique useful for finding the peak current when coil shuts off. I hadn't actually tried using the scope to verify my meters yet but it is good to know they are fairly accurate :D Are those digital meters you are comparing by the way?

Looking forward to your shots!

NXUS
10-29-2008, 08:14 PM
Valid question, and all things being equal if no outside forces where applied to the wire, the charge transfer would propigate forever, but the real world doesn't work that way. There is no perfect insulator so there will be losses associated with leakage, and losses due to the resistance of the wire will eventually reduce the voltage until equalibrium is reached and entropy wins again.

All this is calculable but who needs a headache right now.. :)

NXUS
10-29-2008, 08:19 PM
Hi, sorry if my prievious post seems a little out of context, I am new to this forum and to its posting idiosycracies. This was a response to an older post asking about electron propigation in a wire.

NXUS
10-29-2008, 08:35 PM
Me again, I have a question this time. I have scanned trough some of the posts on this thread and are some of you making that fan based on bendini circuit that imhotep posted? If so , any success, I just started looking at trying to reproduce it also. Any feedback would be appreciated.

A comment on the signal you got on your scope from the antenae and ground connection. There is a lot of energy in the air and if you are near any power lines or heavy industrial equipmemnt you can get a large amout of induced signals, the air is full of energy, so is the ground. I installed a fiber cable that ran parallel to power lines for several kilometers, and even burried 4 feet in the ground, enough energy was coupled to it to develope over 2000 volts and enough current to produce an inch long arc when i grounded it. Picture me supprized when i was holding this in my bare hands when it happened 0-0.

The difference you noticed between the scope and meter would be due to the differences in loading, the scope has at least a 1-10 meg input impedance the meter maybe 20 kilo ohms. Also the scope shows the peak voltage whereas the meter usually registers the average. You probably already know all this but just figured i would give my 2 cents worth :)

Cheers!

BinzerBob
10-29-2008, 09:19 PM
Hi BinzerBob,

Thanks for bringing that up! :thumbsup:
I found that technique useful for finding the peak current when coil shuts off. I hadn't actually tried using the scope to verify my meters yet but it is good to know they are fairly accurate :D Are those digital meters you are comparing by the way?

Looking forward to your shots!

Yes what I have found With the 1 ohm resistor in series in say any part of the bedini motor or self oscillating circuit is

a) you can use a digital volt meter to read the voltage across that 1 ohm resistor , the voltage you read is equal to the average amperage passing in the circuit.

b) If you hook up a scope to that resistor you will read the instantaneous voltage accross it which is equal to the instantaneous curent passing through the circuit. and if you calculate the average of this signal, you will get what the digital meter was telling you in (a) above.

C) If you hook up your digital multimeter in series (in front of or behind the 1 ohm resistor or if you take out the resistor and replace it with the digital multimeter) and you measure Ampreage DC, you will get values very close to values you obtained in (a) and (b) above.

d) The Analog amp meters give you a result very close to the digital multimeter as well.

So really all the methods used produce a similar value. say + or - 5%


CAUTION CAUTION BUT read below....

Also..... if you hook up a diode in series with a capacitor you can charge it up to the maximum voltage of your bedini motor / pulse motor voltage spike.... So if you don't have a scope and are wondering how high of a spike you are getting you can use the capacitor diode method. I found this to be very accurate to what the scope was reading. CAUTION!!!!! CAUTION !!!! CAUTION!!!!! if you are using this capacitor method be very VERY VERY CAREFUL... TODAY I CHARGED UP A 2000 MFD CAPACITOR TO 370 VOLTS THIS WAS VERY VERY VERY DANGEROUS. When I shorted it out it created a very loud noise and dangerous spark and got the wife running downstairs. USE A SMALL CAPACITOR SAY 100 uF or smaller to capture a peak voltage. AND MAKE SURE YOUR CAPACITOR CAN HANDLE THE 300v OR 400v OR IT WILL EXPLODE!!!!

BinzerBob
11-22-2008, 04:47 AM
Hello all,

I was poking around with the scope and I wanted to see the voltage of the SSG motor when it was up to speed and then switched off. Basically I wanted to look at the sine wave...

Then I wanted to compare this wave to where it fits on the h wave. All I did was turn the motor off to look at the sine wave and on to look at the h wave. The sine wave sits right on top of the h wave hump.

Take a look. YouTube - 2008-11-20.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=363H_XK-tPc)

The top of the h wave is the voltage spike... The hump of the h wave is the magnet approaching the coil... The line under the h hump is the transistor turning on.

notice that the transistor turns on right at the inflection point of the sine wave... Right at the point that it goes negative... the point that the magnet reaches Top dead center and starts to move away from the coil.

Is this old news? or something of interest? Probably something stated a bit differently.

Let me know your views, thanks.

dambit
11-22-2008, 09:16 AM
Hi Binzer,

How do you hook up the scope to see a sine wave?

Cheers,

Steve.

BinzerBob
11-22-2008, 02:54 PM
I hook up the scope to one of the windings of the coil... it can be the trigger winding or the energized winding (both of these windings produce the same voltage as they are 1:1 magnetically coupled).

Allow the motor to ramp up to maximum speed and observe the H wave on the scope. Now once you see a good H wave disconnect the source battery (you can keep the charge battery connected). With no power to the Bedini SSG the spinning motor produces electricity (magnets passing by a coil produce electricity ... basically the motor is a generator when the rotor is turning).

To observe the H wave in sink with the Sine wave you have to play with your trigger point on the scope. I was easily able to do it with the h wave upside down (basically just switching the leads of the scope on the coil) and using the negative slope trigger and moving wave to part of the H wave hump. Then when I turned on and off the motor the crest of the sine wave lined up exactly with the crest of the H wave.

But then I got playing around with the scope and I figured how to do it with the H wave in the upright position.

But what is interesting about this is that you can see that the magnets passing the coil simply produces about a plus 5 volt to a neg 5 volt sine wave. The trigger coil simply sends a pulse to the transistor to the energize the main coil at the time that the magnet is right in line with the coil and moving away. This whole action was nicely described in a previous post that I saw, and also on a You Tube demonstration YouTube - Inductor In Trigger Circuit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CETv5SyVUi0).

All I am bringing to the table is that with the motor turned off the SSG is a simple Generator. If you look at the you tube above it is very very informative and absolutely amazing to understanding it all. I really liked to see the sine wave though to now complete my understanding of the motor (to this point :cheers: )

brusers
11-28-2008, 08:25 PM
Last night I thought I would hook up my scope to the 80' of coax cable I had up on the trees, and to real ground ( a 4ft of copper wire buired in the ground. I am getting wierd shots.

The scope is reporting a wave in about 60V in size each segment is at 20V, and one Milla second... when I measuer the voltage with a multi meter I get .4 V

( see attached )

Hey theremart,
Just wondering if you have tried anything else with that.
Pulsing it, different caps or coils in between.. etc..
It would be interesting to hear.
Thanks,
Marcel

Sephiroth
12-13-2009, 11:59 AM
Please may I request a scope shot or two from a half bipolar circuit if anyone has them lying around :D Perhaps with a few basic specs from the machine they were taken from. eg, solenoid or window coils, etc...

Thanks!

theremart
12-13-2009, 01:52 PM
Hey theremart,
Just wondering if you have tried anything else with that.
Pulsing it, different caps or coils in between.. etc..
It would be interesting to hear.
Thanks,
Marcel

Hi Marcel...

I have switched to working on bigger projects. If I was to try this again, I would use different wire. I believe because of the shielding on the coax it did not give me what I needed. Other factors include that you should not have the wire touching the tree better to have pvc or something to keep it away from the tree some use rope.

I tried caps, the best voltage I got was hooking up to the copper pipes. ( I had an old trailer before 1967...)

Old carbon filters work great for ground as I found from Pirate. I used a couple old Burkey filters I had and they did a great job of giving more voltage, went up to 1.15 V for an earth battery.

But the type of wire you use is a major factor from what I can see. Would be interesting to know about the early wire manufacture what it was made of...


Anyhow back to my Jean pain, Solar cells, and now a windmill playgroud:whistle:

Zooty
02-15-2010, 03:01 PM
Scope shot across diode going to charging battery on a standard SSG setup. System running on 31.5 volts@600ma charging a dead 12v 60ah lead acid car battery. Battery currently at 12.76v. Transistor is cold and coil is very slightly warm. Does this waveform look ok?

Zooty
02-15-2010, 05:57 PM
Another scope shot across the diode. This time the diode is connected to a third wind on the same coil form and the other end of that coil is connected to the charge battery. The input has dropped to 500ma, rpm's are the same but look at the voltage.

Sephiroth
02-15-2010, 06:16 PM
Another scope shot across the diode. This time the diode is connected to a third wind on the same coil form and the other end of that coil is connected to the charge battery. The input has dropped to 500ma, rpm's are the same but look at the voltage.

That is two stage inductance :)

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2907-two-stage-inductance-bedini-monopole.html

Your first scope shot looks fine.

What has happened in the second scope shot is that now you have increased the number of turns on the recovery coil it is acting as a generator, clipping the sine wave off at the top. So you are converting some of the mechanical back to electrical.

Also, because two stage inductance increases the duration of the flyback, you can lower the duty cycle more than a standard set up, which lowers your amp draw without effecting mechanical output. :thumbsup:

Zooty
02-15-2010, 06:36 PM
Is it possible you could explain what happens in the system during the h wave.. what each part of the wave means?

Sephiroth
02-15-2010, 06:37 PM
Is it possible you could explain what happens in the system during the h wave.. what each part of the wave means?

I think I did somewhere... can't remember which post... let me see if I can find it...

Sephiroth
02-15-2010, 06:57 PM
Does this help?

http://www.theundergroundlab.org/BediniGraph2.jpg

Zooty
02-15-2010, 07:04 PM
Thanks :) By the way, it seems that the charging rate has gone down in this configuration. Looking at the h wave on my normal setup, my field collapse lasts as long as the on time of the coil

Sephiroth
02-15-2010, 07:13 PM
Thanks :) By the way, it seems that the charging rate has gone down in this configuration. Looking at the h wave on my normal setup, my field collapse lasts as long as the on time of the coil

Yes, in most of my tests I found that it usually has a negative effect on charging because the flyback is doing most of the mechanical work instead of the input pulse. Although it can make up for it with the generator effect. Looking at your scope shot there is a strong generator effect on your model.

Remember you have reduced your input which will also reduce your charge rate ;) Your charing COP may be the same.

Zooty
02-15-2010, 08:06 PM
I have also realized in the shots i posted, the collapse is dwarfing the next magnet coming in. I just measured my magnet distance and they are about 2 1/4 widths apart.. would that affect performance and describe what i am seeing?

Sephiroth
02-15-2010, 08:19 PM
I have also realized in the shots i posted, the collapse is dwarfing the next magnet coming in. I just measured my magnet distance and they are about 2 1/4 widths apart.. would that affect performance and describe what i am seeing?

The flyback (field collapse) in the second scope shot does go past the scalar south, but before field has fully collapsed the induced voltage from the rotor magnets exceeds your charging battery's voltage so starts acting as a generator.

So yes, this is going to put a load on the rotor, but it isn't wasted.

Zooty
02-15-2010, 09:11 PM
Thank you for your explanations, you have been a great help :)

Zooty
02-19-2010, 03:32 AM
This is a scope shot across the power coil on the bi filer using the tesla impulse technology circuit on a monopole rotor. The extra spike only appears when i use a battery on input and a low base resistance.. Halfords battery charger and 10,000mf cap shows the same as a normal ssg .. maybe its the difference in voltage, i dont know.. The second image is a close up of the top part of the separate spike. Can anyone shed some light on this? Thanks

Sephiroth
02-19-2010, 07:21 AM
This is a scope shot across the power coil on the bi filer using the tesla impulse technology circuit on a monopole rotor. The extra spike only appears when i use a battery on input and a low base resistance.. Halfords battery charger and 10,000mf cap shows the same as a normal ssg .. maybe its the difference in voltage, i dont know.. The second image is a close up of the top part of the separate spike. Can anyone shed some light on this? Thanks

The first scope shot is showing the motor double pulsing per magnet pass... I would guess that this is because the supply voltage is lower if nothing about the motor has changed...

Not sure what I am looking at in the second shot... is that one spike stretched out across the whole display?

Zooty
02-19-2010, 12:48 PM
yeah, the top part of one spike zoomed in

Sephiroth
02-21-2010, 11:56 PM
yeah, the top part of one spike zoomed in

Hi zooty, I'm afraid I have no idea why it looks like that... out of curiousity what speed is your oscilloscope?

I have a question for everyone one now. Does anyone know what this wave is or is from?

http://www.theundergroundlab.org/images/thewave1.jpg

(zoomed in a bit)
http://www.theundergroundlab.org/images/thewave2.jpg

I don't want to say anything about it at the moment but I'm curious what the response will be. I thought it must be a glitch on the scope, but I'm not so sure...

Aaron, would it be possible to bring it to John's attention?

Aaron
02-22-2010, 12:08 AM
Seph,

I sent it to John. Not sure if he'll see it soon - he is neck deep in solar
charger testing. I haven't seen him for 2 weeks.

Sephiroth
02-22-2010, 12:10 AM
Thanks Aaron :thumbsup:

If it isn't a glitch on the scope then it is very interesting.

Sephiroth
02-22-2010, 01:00 AM
It has been suggested that my scope shouldn't be on the AC setting. I can confirm the wave is the same on AC or DC. Here is a pic of it on the DC setting but my camera isn't great so you can't make it out very well when it is that small.

http://www.theundergroundlab.org/images/thewave3.jpg

Sephiroth
02-22-2010, 04:23 PM
Since no one is commenting, I'll let you know what the scope shot is.

It is the voltage across the charging battery terminals.

I noticed this before last year and it only shows up when using very low impedance coils. The scope shots above are from a solid state oscillator with an estimated 58 milliohm coil.

Admittedly, It could be a glitch on the scope.

Here is a comparison of the scope shots from a standard SSG and a different low impedance solid state device I built last year... off the top of my head, I think the coil was around 200 milliohms.

http://s4.postimage.org/AZ_or.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVAZ_or)

notice that the charging battery voltage goes below the resting voltage. I really want to know if this is a glitch :D

EDIT : Correction, can't seem to measure accurately for milliohm resistances. The coil is 40 feet of 24 strands of 22SWG in parallel litzed. The theoretical resistance of the coil windings would be approximately 22 milli ohms.

patmac
02-23-2010, 01:21 AM
sephiroth

Greate shot, I think second pic show the radiant negative energy effect. look impendance batteries are normally lower than 50 miliohm, but negative energy can acts very different than normal energy dissipation.

I think this effect only is possible using coil impendance aprox = batt impendance.

Good works! Thanks by show us your research....

Zooty
02-23-2010, 01:49 AM
Hi Sephiroth, my scope goes up to 10mhz. The second screenshot was at 1mhz. When i zoomed in further it was a sine wave around -4v peeks at the spike voltage.

I was interested in your scope shot, i am also playing with a solid state version. Whats your input voltage and current? How are your charging batteries performing?