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ren
06-24-2008, 10:31 AM
I built a little two pole window motor today out of leftovers to experiment with JB/RC bipolar switch. I am blown away.

I have been drawing 100ma out of a 1.3 amp hour battery for nearly 2 hours now and battery voltage has dropped 0.03 of a volt. All this time the rotor has been zoomin along. It doesnt take a genius to see that something funky is going down:blowout:

I just have the bridge connected back onto the run battery permanently, it isnt set up to pulse like it is specified. If I disconnect the bridge the battery drops straight away, but when the bridge is reconnected it crawls back up. Its no perpetual self runner, but I just threw this thing together this afternoon!!!! There is no charge battery, although it can be configured that way if desired.

If you love your Bedini circuits guys you have to build this one!!! Thankyou John and Ron!

Jetijs
06-24-2008, 11:15 AM
Can you post the circuit that you are using?

N O G
06-24-2008, 11:29 AM
hi there Ren, like what youve done ...ive never had time to do one of these motors yet but looks interesting .have you tried putting some load on the rotor to see what happens.

ren
06-24-2008, 12:26 PM
hey jet, its this one here. Pots on all resistors. The one between the pnp base and the small npn (I used mpsa06) will dramatically decrease amp draw if its high resistance (1k plus). Still tinkering with it, I'll post the exact schematic I used soon. This schematic isolates the power winding at all times except for when it fires, not like the SG circuit in which the coil is an extension of the run battery. Thats my understanding anyway.

NOG, this rotor is so tiny, and I have no way to load it properly. Im building a bigger one at the moment, it will be able to be loaded sufficiently.

Jetijs
06-24-2008, 01:10 PM
Thanks ren :)
Can you tell me your coil specs? And what would the best number of turns be?
I am not sure if I understood right what this circuit does. So, for what I see, the top PNP transistor is open and could conduct current if there wasn't the bottom NPN transistor which is closed till the trigger winding induces some current and opens the middle NPN transistor. When the trigger winding is energized, it opens the middle NPN transistor which in turn opens the bottom NPN transistor and current can now flow through the power winding. This makes the wheel turn and when the magnet, that induced the current on trigger winding, is already far away from the coil, it stops inducing anything and both NPN transistors turn OFF. Is this right? Maybe someone can explain what is happening in the circuit better?
Also, is this like backpoping the battery, when in one cycle the battery energizes the coil and in the other cycle the battery gets the inductive spike back? Wouldn't this damage the battery in time?
Thank you,
Jetijs

ren
06-24-2008, 09:29 PM
Hi Jet,

I am far from experienced mate but my understanding goes as such.

The top pnp effectively isolates the power winding from the source until the trigger winding does its thing and tells it to open. The two npns are a darlington pair. The funny thing I found was when the trigger windings resistance is raised into the "Ks" the thing doesnt go solid state like an SG would. If you let it get up to speed and then raise the resistance on the trigger winding it still rotates normally.

I put this circuit on my trifilar monopole and the sounds it makes are very different. I think it fires at a different time too, I cant be sure but I got the impression it fired closer to TDC and it felt like it had more torque than the two previous sg circuits did. Its a really sharp quick pulse when resistance is raised. Like a little kung foo power chop!:D

I was a little confused at first by the pnp, please note the emitter is connected to power! The transistor pair I used were the 2n3055(npn) and mj2955(pnp). These are handy because one side of the casing can be used to attach the power winding to (the collector) and the other side can go to the bridge. Bolt it all in and its easy to remove if necessary.

The bridge provides feed back to the battery, though my understanding is that it should be pulsed across a capacitor. I think when this is set right and there is a cap over the terminals of the battery the battery wont even register anything leaving it. The cap dumps through the power winding and it is promptly returned via bridge.

Interestingly if the bridges negative is hooked up the thing goes solid state when you hook the + and - leads up. I had to put them on first then hook the bridge up. Im not sure my setup is working how it was intended, but it does reduce amp draw significantly for almost no loss in speed or torque as far as I can tell.

Like I said this was made out of leftover parts, the coil is #24SWG and is probably 200 turns. The more the better. The window worked better for me than the monopole did. Simple to make too and you can use neos, I dont know why more people arent making them. Use the sg circuit to test it and get it running. And watch out for the small npn (mpsa06) its terminals are a bit funky, base is in the middle:thumbsup:

Jetijs
06-24-2008, 09:48 PM
So you are using this small NPN at the trigger winding side and the 2n3055 as the bottom one?
Thanks for the info BTW :thumbsup:
:cheers:

ren
06-24-2008, 10:03 PM
yup just like the schematic. Hook up the mpsa06 up like a simple sg circuit minus the power winding. The pnp and the npn are then the gates at either end of the power winding. You could build the full circuit so it switched on the north and south, you would just build this exact circuit again and invert it and connect it to the same power winding, you would need another way to trigger it for souths only though. trigger winding with reverse polarity or hall, opto etc.

No worries Jet:thumbsup:

Aaron
06-24-2008, 10:46 PM
The bridge provides feed back to the battery, though my understanding is that it should be pulsed across a capacitor.

I think when this is set right and there is a cap over the terminals of the battery the battery wont even register anything leaving it.

The first you got the money :$:

The second: By the battery not registering something, you are implying that what you want is a way to isolate the cap from the battery. How?

You're talking some powerful specifics here.

ren
06-24-2008, 11:40 PM
Yeah Aaron, I think this circuit has some real potential:thumbsup:

I reckon a commutator designed to disconnect the battery from the cap when the circuit fires fits the bill nicely. I dont have that on my current setup, though I plan on implementing it into my larger build.

A good friend once showed me something so simple yet so profound regarding this principle.

Get a cap and briefly connect it to the terminals of a battery. Disconnect it and use it on a load. Now, what did you just take from the battery? The battery never completed its circuit, you just kinda cloned a portion of it. Its a little more complicated than that, but I note JBs SS pulse charger (the one with fets and huge cap bank) seems to use this principle. I believe it dates back to Tesla and so called "charge siphoning".

All that needs to be done is just before the circuit fires the negative or positive leg between the battery and cap needs to be disconnected and then connected again after the circuit has finished its pulse. The pulse is still collected into the cap, but the circuit never allowed a complete cycle back to the terminals of the battery.

Anyway, some interesting principles to test;)

gmeat
06-25-2008, 12:30 AM
Yeah Aaron, I think this circuit has some real potential:thumbsup:

I reckon a commutator designed to disconnect the battery from the cap when the circuit fires fits the bill nicely. I dont have that on my current setup, though I plan on implementing it into my larger build.

A good friend once showed me something so simple yet so profound regarding this principle.

Get a cap and briefly connect it to the terminals of a battery. Disconnect it and use it on a load. Now, what did you just take from the battery? The battery never completed its circuit, you just kinda cloned a portion of it. Its a little more complicated than that, but I note JBs SS pulse charger (the one with fets and huge cap bank) seems to use this principle. I believe it dates back to Tesla and so called "charge siphoning".

All that needs to be done is just before the circuit fires the negative or positive leg between the battery and cap needs to be disconnected and then connected again after the circuit has finished its pulse. The pulse is still collected into the cap, but the circuit never allowed a complete cycle back to the terminals of the battery.

Anyway, some interesting principles to test;)



Hi Ren,


Very nice work.How many magnets are you using?.and how are they aligned NSNS?.I havent had much time to experiment lately:( as I blew a couple of transistors on my SSG when i was trying to run an attraction motor off the back end of the SSG(Dumb move) and I've been working on other ideas.Keep up the good work:thumbsup:


-Gary

Aaron
06-25-2008, 02:15 AM
All that needs to be done is just before the circuit fires the negative or positive leg between the battery and cap needs to be disconnected and then connected again after the circuit has finished its pulse. The pulse is still collected into the cap, but the circuit never allowed a complete cycle back to the terminals of the battery.

There are some very interesting ways to do it.

As the title of this thread, drastically reduce your input is definitely in the right chronological order of events to work out before full scale self running and literally, have the charge in the cap reduce what leaves the battery is a way to do it.........if you can convince the front battery the cap isn't even there, you'll have it for real. This can be done mechanically with switches or solid state components.

ren
06-25-2008, 04:12 AM
Aaron if you have any ideas for solid state switching Id love to see them. The biggest problem I have is finding a switch that doesnt complete the circuit! This is where mechanical switching can be superior IMO.

Interesting way to put it Aaron, I would have said it the other way around like....

If you can convince the cap the battery isnt there.....

Well lots to learn anyways.

Gmeat the rotor has two poles @ 180 degrees. One is north and one is south, in traditional window configuration. It only fires once per revolution in this particular config, though the nature of the window coil takes advantage of both poles. The magnets I used were small neos 10mmx10mmx10mm three per pole, just what I had on hand.:cheers:

gmeat
06-25-2008, 04:56 AM
Aaron if you have any ideas for solid state switching Id love to see them. The biggest problem I have is finding a switch that doesnt complete the circuit! This is where mechanical switching can be superior IMO.

Interesting way to put it Aaron, I would have said it the other way around like....

If you can convince the cap the battery isnt there.....

Well lots to learn anyways.

Gmeat the rotor has two poles @ 180 degrees. One is north and one is south, in traditional window configuration. It only fires once per revolution in this particular config, though the nature of the window coil takes advantage of both poles. The magnets I used were small neos 10mmx10mmx10mm three per pole, just what I had on hand.:cheers:


Hi Ren,


Thx for the info and it looks like your getting some nice results.On a side note is there any such thing as a capacitor with 2 terminals on both sides for a total of 4? :whistle:

-Gary

ren
06-25-2008, 07:17 AM
I think there is Gmeat, but it shouldnt make any difference, bar making it a little easier to hook up. The caps I have pulled out of microwaves have four terminals.

tjnlsn255
06-26-2008, 09:30 PM
Hi,

I am so glad I found my way to this site.... the info here is AWSOME!

I am new at this so please take is easy on me ok?

If the Cap is in Parallel with the battery then the battery is not isolated by it but its like a second battery, right?

If the cap was placed in series with the positive lead or negative lead of the battery then only the pulsing would get to the battery, right? But in that case would the positive or negative potential of the battery still be felt at the other end of the cap....... I am having a really hard time with how caps help or hurt this whole technology in general.... any insight would be great.....

One more thing.... would a TIP120 darlington pair work in place if the little/big NPNs?

Thank you.....

Todd

Yeah Aaron, I think this circuit has some real potential:thumbsup:

I reckon a commutator designed to disconnect the battery from the cap when the circuit fires fits the bill nicely. I dont have that on my current setup, though I plan on implementing it into my larger build.

A good friend once showed me something so simple yet so profound regarding this principle.

Get a cap and briefly connect it to the terminals of a battery. Disconnect it and use it on a load. Now, what did you just take from the battery? The battery never completed its circuit, you just kinda cloned a portion of it. Its a little more complicated than that, but I note JBs SS pulse charger (the one with fets and huge cap bank) seems to use this principle. I believe it dates back to Tesla and so called "charge siphoning".

All that needs to be done is just before the circuit fires the negative or positive leg between the battery and cap needs to be disconnected and then connected again after the circuit has finished its pulse. The pulse is still collected into the cap, but the circuit never allowed a complete cycle back to the terminals of the battery.

Anyway, some interesting principles to test;)

Tehnoman
06-27-2008, 03:46 PM
[..]
A good friend once showed me something so simple yet so profound regarding this principle.

Get a cap and briefly connect it to the terminals of a battery. Disconnect it and use it on a load. Now, what did you just take from the battery? The battery never completed its circuit, you just kinda cloned a portion of it. Its a little more complicated than that, but I note JBs SS pulse charger (the one with fets and huge cap bank) seems to use this principle. I believe it dates back to Tesla and so called "charge siphoning".
[..]

Well, that is not quite true. As a physicist I must say, that current flows. And when current flows, it means - circuit is completed. It is true that time is very short, current flow depends on voltage, that is between cap plates, as current flows, voltage increases and current flow decreases. And when voltage has reached ~ battery voltage, circuit is broken. More simple explanation would be, that at "+" cap side there is absence of electrons, aka electrons was given to battery "-" pole, but at "-" cap side there is excess of electrons, taken from battery "+" pole.

So, conclusion? Battery is depleting, slowly, but it does. We haven't done any "magical" cloning, leaving battery intact. Other question is - whether cap, connected to load, does give more energy than got from battery. And with my present physics knowledge I can't answer it. :)

theremart
06-27-2008, 09:49 PM
One day I had two SSG's and I decided to run one and put a capacitor on the primary side of the SSG to see what voltage was there. I found I had from 2 - 5 V with my neo magnets. So it hit me... the SSG has to be fighting that voltage in order to supply power to the coil.

The advantage of disconnecting the cap from the circuit, is you are building up the generated voltage in the cap as the wheel spins...

But I never did take the time to measure the polarity of the cap.... I was using a DC cap at the time hmm... If I switched over to an AC cap.... that might be and education!....

ren
06-27-2008, 11:30 PM
Well, that is not quite true. As a physicist I must say, that current flows. And when current flows, it means - circuit is completed. It is true that time is very short, current flow depends on voltage, that is between cap plates, as current flows, voltage increases and current flow decreases. And when voltage has reached ~ battery voltage, circuit is broken. More simple explanation would be, that at "+" cap side there is absence of electrons, aka electrons was given to battery "-" pole, but at "-" cap side there is excess of electrons, taken from battery "+" pole.

So, conclusion? Battery is depleting, slowly, but it does. We haven't done any "magical" cloning, leaving battery intact. Other question is - whether cap, connected to load, does give more energy than got from battery. And with my present physics knowledge I can't answer it. :)

Ok, so current flows in a capacitor when it is parallel to a source? So if I connect a capacitor to a battery the battery will slowly go flat. Perhaps if there is a break down of the dieletric internally....but it would take a very long time for that battery to go flat if that capacitor functioned correctly.

What I am exploring is the idea of extending the run time by NEVER allowing a complete return to the source (in this circumstance the battery). I see it more like moving potential around rather than current. If the cap is disconnected from the source just before it is used in the working circuit then only the capacitance is used, but this still allows work to be done. Im not saying the battery will run indefinately, I am exploring the possibility it may run for alot longer.

Chip Shorter
06-28-2008, 12:36 AM
Current will not flow without a voltage drop. Eliminate a voltage drop and you will eliminate current flow.

elias
06-28-2008, 04:34 AM
Hi Ren,

I read a paper published in IEEE which performed experiments on charging a capacitor mainly cited by Tom Bearden. It was interesting to note that the more the steps in the charging process increased the less heat was produced on the resistor charging the capacitor.

Suppose we want to charge a capacitor to V volts
1- connect it directly to V volts, the wasted energy is E
2- connect it first to V/2 then to V, the wasted energy is E/2
3- connect it first to V/4 then to V/2 then to 3V/4 then to V, the wasted energy is E/4
...
...
At last you can do this in N steps and theoretically the wasted energy is E/N and with significant amount of steps you may reach zero wasted energy.
Now you can see that if no heat is produced on the resistor charging the capacitor you can conclude no current is being used for charging the battery.
This experiment will show us that a capacitor is mainly being charged by the potential and the current is only wasted stuff.

Elias

Chip Shorter
06-28-2008, 09:57 PM
Supposed you pulsed a rather substantial inductor. We all know voltage leads current in an inductor by as much as 90 degrees. You would need inrush current but suppose you had an inductor and were to discharge and recharge before major collapse of the field? Suppose this inductor was wound in a way to reduce capacitance, a major cause of current in a conventional wound inductor. Next lets make that inductor bifiler and recover the power-out of phase by 180 degrees. Next lets add a capacitor and put the whole circuit in resonance. :whistle:

ren
06-28-2008, 10:09 PM
and you can do it all and make gobs of ozone;)

Tehnoman
06-29-2008, 12:19 PM
Ok, so current flows in a capacitor when it is parallel to a source? So if I connect a capacitor to a battery the battery will slowly go flat. Perhaps if there is a break down of the dieletric internally....but it would take a very long time for that battery to go flat if that capacitor functioned correctly.


I think you got me wrong. The case was, that if we connect cap to battery, then to load and repeated this process, the battery would go down similar as it would be connected directly. With classic knowledge it should do it even faster, ~ 2 times. Why? Because, when charging cap, approximately same energy amount that is given to cap, is lost in heat, while charging cap. I remember proof with summing current flow and voltage drop across the resistance.

What I am exploring is the idea of extending the run time by NEVER allowing a complete return to the source (in this circumstance the battery). I see it more like moving potential around rather than current. If the cap is disconnected from the source just before it is used in the working circuit then only the capacitance is used, but this still allows work to be done. Im not saying the battery will run indefinately, I am exploring the possibility it may run for alot longer.

Again I think that you didn't get my point. Even in process you described it is complete return to source, cap is just middle worker - it takes energy from battery, do work with it, and then again takes energy from battery. And when taking energy from battery - it is just this complete return we wan't to avoid. When cap takes energy from battery, electrons flow out of "-" pole of battery, and flow in "+" pole of battery. And that is complited circuit form battery's view!

Hi Ren,

I read a paper published in IEEE which performed experiments on charging a capacitor mainly cited by Tom Bearden. It was interesting to note that the more the steps in the charging process increased the less heat was produced on the resistor charging the capacitor.

Suppose we want to charge a capacitor to V volts
1- connect it directly to V volts, the wasted energy is E
2- connect it first to V/2 then to V, the wasted energy is E/2
3- connect it first to V/4 then to V/2 then to 3V/4 then to V, the wasted energy is E/4
...
...
At last you can do this in N steps and theoretically the wasted energy is E/N and with significant amount of steps you may reach zero wasted energy.
Now you can see that if no heat is produced on the resistor charging the capacitor you can conclude no current is being used for charging the battery.
This experiment will show us that a capacitor is mainly being charged by the potential and the current is only wasted stuff.

Elias

This is something more interesting. Yet, there should be done some calculations, but my intuition says it could be true. And it is not hard to realize this in N steps - with variable resistor and voltage division, am I wrong?

But yet, as I explained, this would only eliminate energy loss across resistance. It would not reduce energy given to cap. So, with this kind of cap charging, we could try to achieve similar performance as it could be from direct-from-battery.

Sorry for my "pesimistic" view, but from my experience, cap charging is the process, where current flows. It can be easy observed with RC circuit and ammeter in series and voltmeter across cap. ;)

My own experiments will begin only after first parts will be arrived, so that is more 1 or 2 days to wait and then I will start to build some of the experiments you guys are doing here and post my results and my as next physicist view. :)

I hope that all will go well.

Aaron
06-29-2008, 05:32 PM
Caps can charge up a bit by themselves with the terminals totally open. I think most people have seen this. Short the cap and the voltage climbs a bit. Where is the current here?

Current is slower than voltage. The electrons are moving at a few inches per hour while the voltage gas (heaviside flow - both the positive photon potential and the negative photon potential in both directions at same time) is moving at nearly light speed in a closed loop. Those are the 3 flows on a circuit when the loop is closed.

When using a "potential charge" or "time charge", the loop is only closed just long enough to tell the potential where to go. The the loop is then opened before current can flow and the potential INSTANTANEOUSLY appears at the destination.

Isn't this the basic concept that people are experiencing on the batteries they're charging with an SG?

Chip Shorter
06-29-2008, 05:58 PM
Caps can charge up a bit by themselves with the terminals totally open. I think most people have seen this. Short the cap and the voltage climbs a bit. Where is the current here?

Current is slower than voltage. The electrons are moving at a few inches per hour while the voltage gas (heaviside flow - both the positive photon potential and the negative photon potential in both directions at same time) is moving at nearly light speed in a closed loop. Those are the 3 flows on a circuit when the loop is closed.

When using a "potential charge" or "time charge", the loop is only closed just long enough to tell the potential where to go. The the loop is then opened before current can flow and the potential INSTANTANEOUSLY appears at the destination.

Isn't this the basic concept that people are experiencing on the batteries they're charging with an SG?
Very important concept here.

Tehnoman
06-29-2008, 07:16 PM
[..]
When using a "potential charge" or "time charge", the loop is only closed just long enough to tell the potential where to go. The the loop is then opened before current can flow and the potential INSTANTANEOUSLY appears at the destination.

Isn't this the basic concept that people are experiencing on the batteries they're charging with an SG?

It could be, as far as I can understand from information gathered here. But it is strange - RC circuits are quite well investigated, yet no such effects was detected with conventional voltmeter at cap side. Maybe this is more complicated phenomena than usual RC circuit stuff. It could depend on R (resistance) value - when observing RC circuit, we are using rather big R values, if compared with plain Cu-wire resistance, so we can observe cap charging process with ampermeter and voltmeter (commonly, osciliscope). And it could be, that in directly unobservable case (resistance is only wire) these effects start to show up. :)

Well, there is another interesting experiment to be done. More and more use shows to high speed mechanical switches. :thumbsup:

lighty
06-29-2008, 08:20 PM
I read a paper published in IEEE which performed experiments on charging a capacitor mainly cited by Tom Bearden.


I haven't seen that paper, could you please upload it somewhere or at least advise on it's exact nomenclature number so that I can find it? Thx!:v-peace:

ren
06-29-2008, 09:36 PM
When cap takes energy from battery, electrons flow out of "-" pole of battery, and flow in "+" pole of battery. And that is complited circuit form battery's view!




Hi Technoman. I appreciate your input but I still dont understand what your are trying to say exactly. Mainly what you said above. When cap takes energy from a battery electrons flow out of the negative terminal through the cap and into the positive terminal. Is this what you mean?

I cant see how the electrons jump the gap?

Aaron
06-29-2008, 09:59 PM
The electrons do flow from the negative side towards the positive side over the circuit.

But the source of the electrons is from the copper atoms in the wire and not necessarily from the battery.

When the positive Heaviside potential moves from vacuum space towards the positive terminal on the battery and then over the wire towards the negative terminal, that positive potential attracts to it and pulls an electron out of the 3rd electron field of a copper atom. That electron jumps to the next spot and the next and so forth..they mostly jiggle up and down perpendicular to the wire but the overall trend is in the direction of the positive terminal...slowly a few inches per hour. Of course that is only possible when the loop is closed long enough for the "electron current" to get moving.

Also, this is assuming electrons even exist, which to my knowledge, there is zero proof of electrons...only models that seem to indicate there might be an electron based on observed effects.

Also, amperage has never been directly measured in history. :sshh:

Tehnoman
06-29-2008, 10:01 PM
Not through! ;) That is the catch. I said exactly what I said, but - I didn't say that these were the same electrons. But battery doesn't care, whether these are same electrons or are not. The cap gets his energy and potential (voltage) only with help of charged particles (one side - electrons, other side - excess of electrons).

I edited your picture to ilustrate my thoughts.

http://www.bildez.lv/bildes/tehnoman/misc/1214776795.jpg

elias
06-30-2008, 06:37 AM
I haven't seen that paper, could you please upload it somewhere or at least advise on it's exact nomenclature number so that I can find it? Thx!:v-peace:

I can send them for you next week, because I have left them on my other computer. You'd better provide your email address, for this purpose.

These are two links, but you need to subscribe in order to download the papers:

Cookies Required (http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=AJPIAS000067000008000737000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes)
Cookies Required (http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=AJPIAS000060000011001047000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes)

Elias

elias
06-30-2008, 06:51 AM
It could be, as far as I can understand from information gathered here. But it is strange - RC circuits are quite well investigated, yet no such effects was detected with conventional voltmeter at cap side. Maybe this is more complicated phenomena than usual RC circuit stuff. It could depend on R (resistance) value - when observing RC circuit, we are using rather big R values, if compared with plain Cu-wire resistance, so we can observe cap charging process with ampermeter and voltmeter (commonly, osciliscope). And it could be, that in directly unobservable case (resistance is only wire) these effects start to show up. :)



Tehnoman

Some phenomenon is not so explainable by conventional means, such as where does half of the energy go IF your charge an Ideal capacitor WITHOUT any resistance (R=0)? I mean the energy of the Capacitor is always 0.5CV^2
and half of the energy is supposedly wasted in R, no matter what size R is, but ideally if you assume R = 0 then where does half of the energy go?

I will post one of the papers next week and it can be easily observed that IF Nothing gets wasted in R, then we have charged our capacitor WITHOUT consuming any energy, and the potential is simply TRANSFERRED to the capacitor. I have concluded that Electrical Current has nothing to do with charging a capacitor, and it is only the way we charge the capacitor is what makes us waste some heat.
The problem we have is to TRANSFER the potential on the battery to the capacitor WITHOUT drawing any current. This paper provides an experimental way to achieve this BUT I am sure that there must be better ways to block electron current. We have to change the way we look at such things significantly to be able to SEE better ways.

Elias

elias
06-30-2008, 07:40 AM
For example what happens if you charge a capacitor by using a superconductor?! There is no R to waste energy. Then the capacitor must be able to charge instantaneously without any energy loss.

Tehnoman
06-30-2008, 08:27 AM
Tehnoman

Some phenomenon is not so explainable by conventional means, such as where does half of the energy go IF your charge an Ideal capacitor WITHOUT any resistance (R=0)? I mean the energy of the Capacitor is always 0.5CV^2
and half of the energy is supposedly wasted in R, no matter what size R is, but ideally if you assume R = 0 then where does half of the energy go?


As far as I remember, capacitor gets 0.5CV^2, and over resistance in heat is lost the same amount, that I was told at school. :) And from battery we got energy value of CV^2. If we assume that R=0, then majority heat is lost in power supply, unfortunately we don't have ideal power supplies or batteries with zero internal resistance. Not sure, whether it is the same 0.5CV^2, but that could be found out experimentally. :)


I will post one of the papers next week and it can be easily observed that IF Nothing gets wasted in R, then we have charged our capacitor WITHOUT consuming any energy, and the potential is simply TRANSFERRED to the capacitor. I have concluded that Electrical Current has nothing to do with charging a capacitor, and it is only the way we charge the capacitor is what makes us waste some heat.
The problem we have is to TRANSFER the potential on the battery to the capacitor WITHOUT drawing any current. This paper provides an experimental way to achieve this BUT I am sure that there must be better ways to block electron current. We have to change the way we look at such things significantly to be able to SEE better ways.

Elias

I'm opened in new ways and ideas. No offense. But a little criticism hasn't killed anyone. It could be, that there is something that is not explained by traditional science, yet people has been charging caps for long time, but I haven't heard a single statement, that they could somehow conserve or get energy from ZPF/environment. So I am little bit cautious about statements that is directly opposing observations made by engineers and scientists for centuries. Really looking forward to read one of these papers about this phenomena and experiments, that would prove it - and so understand were classic physics has gone wrong! ;) Haven't made any tests myself, as I said, but will start doing them soon. And I guess that cap charging will be one of the first. :thinking:

For example what happens if you charge a capacitor by using a superconductor?! There is no R to waste energy. Then the capacitor must be able to charge instantaneously without any energy loss.

Again, power supply/battery. Basically, at the initial cap charging point it is short circuit - empty cap has practically zero DC resistance, and so are superconductor. The current draw would be as high as can be supplied.

One more situation worth exploring would be charging cap from other cap. :) This would eliminate the heating in power supply/battery, because as far as I know, cap hasn't any significant internal discharge resistance, has it?

lighty
06-30-2008, 03:57 PM
@Elias

I asked a friend who asked a friend so I got the papers regarding capacitor charging. Interesting read indeed.:thinking::thinking::thinking:

Maxwell
06-30-2008, 06:47 PM
Let's not confuse the theory on paper with what happens in reality. We can draw a circuit with no resistance in it, but we can never actually construct it.

It is true that any power supply or battery will have internal resistance, to which we lose energy when current flows (if it gets warm, energy is lost). Any capacitor will have internal resistance and inductance (just google capacitor ESR or ESL) to which energy is lost.

On paper, when we apply a voltage source to a resistor and capacitor we will get the familiar RC time constant as the cap charges. The source will lose CV^2 joules of energy, the cap will end up with 0.5CV^2, and the other half lost to the resistor. The quirk, as mentioned be Elias, is that when we throw out the resistor (limit as R->0) we still lose half the energy but there is no explanation for where it went. The same thing happens when we charge a cap with another cap. Consider this quote from "Electrical Engineering: Principles and Applications" 2nd edition by Allan Hambley (pg 124):

"Thus, we see that the stored energy after the switch is closed is half of the value before the switch is closed. What happened to the missing energy? Usually, the answer to this question is that it is absorbed in the parasitic resistances. It is impossible to construct capacitors that do not have some parasitic effects. Even if we use superconductors for the wires and capacitor plates, there would be parasitic inductance. If we included the parasitic inductance in the circuit model, we would not have missing energy. To put it another way, a physical circuit that is modeled exactly by [a cap charging another cap] does not exist. Invariably, if we use a realistic model for an actual circuit, we can account for all of the energy."

So the conventional explanation for this quirk is that the theory is made for physical situations. Pose a situation that is unphysical, and we will get weird results. I think a better explanation is that it is a failure of lumped circuit analysis; if we construct the situation and analyze it with Maxwell's equations directly, I bet this quirk will disappear.

Aaron
06-30-2008, 08:24 PM
IF electron current is needed to charge a cap...even if it isn't needed, no matter...lets just say a cap is charged up.

If we let it sit around...the voltage will leak down to a lower level....the more leaky the cap the faster the voltage drops on its own.

If current is supposed to charge the cap, does that mean current leaves the cap when it goes down by itself and if so, how is current or the electrons simply draining out of it?

In my opinion, the cap is leaking gas. The aetheric gas that makes up the heaviside flow made of the photon potential or voltage gas. A cap to me is like an aerosol can. You can pressurize it to its level and it will leak out down to its intended capacity. If it is short circuited...it goes to zero voltage...then there is a little vacuum that sucks the radiant potential back inside and the voltage goes back up a little.

A cap can both charge up itself open looped and go down by itself in open loop. Neither involve closed loop electron current.

Aaron
06-30-2008, 09:07 PM
Read pages 26-29 of this document:
Eric Dollard Notes on Dielectricity and Capacitance.
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991) (http://www.scribd.com/doc/73155/Eric-Dollard-Notes-19861991)

"The misconception that capacitance is the accumulation of electrons has seriously distorted our view of dielectric phenomena."

Eric is probably considered the leading Tesla expert because he actually duplicated more of it than anyone else...from my understanding.

Therefore, his opinion is valuable in my opinion.

gmeat
06-30-2008, 11:55 PM
Read pages 26-29 of this document:
Eric Dollard Notes on Dielectricity and Capacitance.
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991) (http://www.scribd.com/doc/73155/Eric-Dollard-Notes-19861991)

"The misconception that capacitance is the accumulation of electrons has seriously distorted our view of dielectric phenomena."

Eric is probably considered the leading Tesla expert because he actually duplicated more of it than anyone else...from my understanding.

Therefore, his opinion is valuable in my opinion.


Hi Aaron,

Thx for posting that link to some of Eric's writings.That was a very interesting read:thumbsup: .


-Gary

vzon17
07-01-2008, 02:16 AM
I had this idea I am going to experiment with thought I would let you guys in on it. I was trying to think of a simple peak switch that would turn on when the voltage rises past a certain point. Well they make those and are commonly available and used as surge suppressors. the part is carlled a varistor. or MOS varistor. and what they do is conduct current when they reach the clamping voltage. Usually they are only hooked up to suppress surges and spikes in the power line. So I thought why not hokk one in searies with a capacitor so that when it reaches a cetain voltage it can discharge into a battery or a coil. it would save on having to make the bedini wheel with the pully and the cam with a switch to fire the cap into the battery. just hook a varistor in series with the cap and then when it gets up to the selected voltage it fires into the battery. you can get them with various clamping voltages and they have a super fast respons time. It may also be good for firing a coil with a fast rise time. I am just thinking at thins point and have not obtained one to test it.
Here is some information.

varistor: Definition and Much More from Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/varistor?cat=technology)

elias
07-01-2008, 03:58 AM
IF electron current is needed to charge a cap...even if it isn't needed, no matter...lets just say a cap is charged up.

If we let it sit around...the voltage will leak down to a lower level....the more leaky the cap the faster the voltage drops on its own.

If current is supposed to charge the cap, does that mean current leaves the cap when it goes down by itself and if so, how is current or the electrons simply draining out of it?

In my opinion, the cap is leaking gas. The aetheric gas that makes up the heaviside flow made of the photon potential or voltage gas. A cap to me is like an aerosol can. You can pressurize it to its level and it will leak out down to its intended capacity. If it is short circuited...it goes to zero voltage...then there is a little vacuum that sucks the radiant potential back inside and the voltage goes back up a little.

A cap can both charge up itself open looped and go down by itself in open loop. Neither involve closed loop electron current.

This is very interesting of course, I have observed a capacitor of 330uF jump up about 15volts, when suddenly discharged from 200V.

elias
07-01-2008, 04:32 AM
Hi

The second paper "Ideal Capacitance Circuits and Energy Conservation" has an interesting conclusion:

To state our conclusion in a general manner, so long as the
voltage across a capacitor is a continuous and differentiable
function of time, the energy delivery to the capacitor is complete
without the missing energy. The idealized circuits in
Fig. 1~a! and ~b! happen to be exceptions.


So, it is assumed that one cannot abruptly change the voltage across a capacitor, and if one does, no explanation is for it through conventional means.
So This is EXACTLY what we are trying to do with Bedini circuits isn't it?
Charging and discharging capacitors and batteries as abruptly as we can. (Sharp Gradients). This was also what gray was doing. And of course Tesla, which found out that abruptly charging and discharging not only doesn't fit the standard theories of energy loss, but it even results in energy gain.

And Maxwell, thanks for taking time to explaining this stuff it was really informative, but what if we could build these circuits and capacitors by using superconductor material, which is an ideal conductor with R = 0.

Elias

Aaron
07-01-2008, 06:09 AM
We want abrupt discharges...this is taking advantage of time energy. Sharp gradients violate conventional thermodynamics. This is IMPULSE technology. Read SECRETS OF COLD WAR TECHNOLOGY chapter 1 on Tesla by Gerry Vassilatos.

Aaron
07-01-2008, 07:08 AM
I have a question, if I put from any type of circuit only a positive lead to a capacitor...can I make it charge without connecting the ground? I'm talking for example a 33,000uf 60v capacitor.

Will it charge if I connect only 1 lead?

According to conventional theory, will it charge? If so, why, if not why?

According to non-conventional theory, will it charge? If so, why, if not why?

I would appreciate any input.

Tehnoman
07-01-2008, 08:48 AM
Read pages 26-29 of this document:
Eric Dollard Notes on Dielectricity and Capacitance.
Eric Dollard Notes (1986--1991) (http://www.scribd.com/doc/73155/Eric-Dollard-Notes-19861991)

"The misconception that capacitance is the accumulation of electrons has seriously distorted our view of dielectric phenomena."

Eric is probably considered the leading Tesla expert because he actually duplicated more of it than anyone else...from my understanding.

Therefore, his opinion is valuable in my opinion.

Yeah, it is valuable indeed. It means, that our (I think - present science) understanding and conception about charge and charged particles are completely wrong in worst case. Crap. Changing thinking about physics in such fundamental level will be quite hard. :confused: I just hope that it won't be worst case and we are just missing something. :o Oh well. Will have to look for a book to study in parallel with my electromagnetic studies at university. I feel that it will be hard semester. :thinking:

I have a question, if I put from any type of circuit only a positive lead to a capacitor...can I make it charge without connecting the ground? I'm talking for example a 33,000uf 60v capacitor.

Will it charge if I connect only 1 lead?

According to conventional theory, will it charge? If so, why, if not why?

According to non-conventional theory, will it charge? If so, why, if not why?

I would appreciate any input.

So, I will speak about conventional theory side, as I am not so educated about non-conventional theory. As far as I am aware, you won't be able to take charge (if you connect to "+" side, that means - take electrons) from circuit to "+" side of cap, maybe just very little amount.

Why? Because, in this way of look we describe a charged cap as a two near conductive material plates one containing "-" charge (excess of electrons) and other "+" charge (excess of positive metal nucleus or absence of electrons). The energy we have given to it wants to get system to more stable state - discharged, that means - get electrons from one side out, where they are more than needed, and other - where they are needed - in. But in same time. If you connect circuit to just one side (+) and want to give charge or take from there, cap has no place to send electrons or from where to take electrons at other side.

What this means?
1) cap itself won't make any asymmetry in himself, because it would be less stable than symmetric charge, so no charge "taking" from circuit at "+" side.
2) if we force circuit to produce "-" charge to "+" side of cap, we might charge it asymmetrically, yet we must construct a circuit that will give this asymmetric charge - like caps, all kind of closed circuits wants to be symmetrically used - for given electron, get one back. Of course, that is not problem, if we take this excess electron from earth, yet, that could not be so simple, in this I'm not so sure, somebody correct me, If I'm wrong. :)

But before I said - maybe just little bit. Well, this little bit is just microscopic effects - I suppose cap could get little charge from or give to wire going out of it, even if it is not connected to earth. But these effect should be minor. The capacitance and voltage just would give us info about what kind of circuit we want to use and how much we could try to charge our cap. :)

That is the way as I could describe the given situation with my present pre-university knowledge. :thinking:

Would be very happy to hear non-conventional theory view at this situation too. :notworthy:

Aaron
07-01-2008, 09:17 AM
A brilliant friend and mentor of mine, Kevin Pirolo, told me something in relation to something else:

F Scott Fitzgerald's famous epigram - 'the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function'

Most people can't do this. YOU CAN! Master the conventional books based on what they teach and what your teachers believe...while at the same time...you know there may be something else on the other side of the fence.

Tehnoman
07-01-2008, 09:25 AM
[..]
F Scott Fitzgerald's famous epigram - 'the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function'
[..]

Nice sentence. :thumbsup: Yeah, it is very interesting about processes in our heads if we actively are trying to develop two different and opposing ideas about one thing. I think one can go crazy. :)

But still. I guess I won't have problems in keeping conventional way of thinking in my head, because I've been knowing and logical thinking about classical approach to electrostatics/electro magnetics for at least for or five years. Just need to get a new way deep enough. But better now than later. As I am quite young (19.8 years), hope I will succeed. :D

ren
07-01-2008, 09:46 AM
A brilliant friend and mentor of mine, Kevin Pirolo, told me something in relation to something else:

F Scott Fitzgerald's famous epigram - 'the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function'

Most people can't do this. YOU CAN! Master the conventional books based on what they teach and what your teachers believe...while at the same time...you know there may be something else on the other side of the fence.


Nice Aaron.

It reminded me of something I have been reading recently.

"I have but one law for all My opposed pairs of creating things; and that law needs but one word to spell it out, so hear Me when I say that the one word of My one law is
BALANCE
"And if man needs two words to aid him in his knowing of the workings of that law, those two words are
BALANCED INTERCHANGE
"If man still needs more words to aid his knowing of My one law, give him another one, and let those three words be
RHYTHMIC BALANCED INTERCHANGE"

Walter Russell talks about the two opposing pairs of our universe, our mind.:thumbsup: (but mind is not meant in the sense of your brain) . How they are complete opposites of each other and how they are used to create the microscopic and macroscopic world we experience. How they divide, but multiply and do the work that is done. Each has its task to do and when they return one voids into the other returning to stillness. Its not as eloquently as he would put it, but its my understanding so far.


To me it sums up what the search should be for in these circuits. Rhythmic balanced interchange between opposing pairs. Not about more out than in or overunity or something else. But a system that takes the natural principles, the waves, and utilizes them in harmony, collecting and redistributing in unity through mutual interchange.

Jetijs
07-01-2008, 12:15 PM
Hi ren :)
I decided to try building one of these. But I will use neos for this, For now I am looking at these:
2"*x*1"*x... (http://www.emovendo.net/magnet/2-x-1-x-12-blocks.html)
It will be a six pole rotor, like your big one. But looking at your big window motor picture it seems that you are using two bar magnets on each pole, right? And how are the poles configured? NSNSNS?

ren
07-01-2008, 12:36 PM
Cool Jet, will be good to have a comparison for the two different grades of magnets!

My large rotor is a six pole, the longer rotor is just two magnets side by side, same polarity facing out. One big long north or south)

It is configured in traditional window motor fashion with alternating poles in such a way that at 180 degrees there are opposite polarities. (Coincidently I noted on one of JB's notes said "can be 2, 6, 12 pole." but 12 pole doesnt match up at 180 degree opposites, it should be 10 I think. Any number with its half being an odd number I think.)

If you wind it with two triggers you can use switching on both poles. I would say trigger wires are the way to go, hall sensors could be fiddly. But who knows with the neos. Look forward to seeing it come alive mate. :cheers:

Aaron
07-01-2008, 03:48 PM
Hi Ren,

Good post on balance.

Radiant potential has its own negative and positive. BUT, the radiant potential itself also has a counterpart.

Maxwell
07-01-2008, 07:40 PM
I have a question, if I put from any type of circuit only a positive lead to a capacitor...can I make it charge without connecting the ground? I'm talking for example a 33,000uf 60v capacitor.

Will it charge if I connect only 1 lead?

According to conventional theory, will it charge? If so, why, if not why?

According to non-conventional theory, will it charge? If so, why, if not why?


I am still learning non-conventional theory. Conventional theory I can comment on.

Will it charge? My answer from conventional theory: it depends. A capacitor will build a voltage only if there is current through it. With nothing connected to one lead, it would initially suggest that there can be no current. This is not always true. There could be ionization in the air to provide current to the lead. Just because there is no wire does not mean there cannot be movement of charge.

I once had some fun with placing tin foil on a TV screen (CRT). When it turns on, charge builds up from the strong electric field (see Chapter 2: Electromagnetism (http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/electro/electro4.html) for example). I read some years ago that big power capacitors tend to gather charge when left disconnected, and it was attributed to the strong fields in the vicinity. Bleed resistors are always used to ensure no voltage holds on capacitors that just sit there.

Another example is using a FET to detect electrostatic fields: Build this simple "electronic electroscope," a FET electrometer (http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/emotor/chargdet.html). In a JFET construction, there is capacitance between the gate and the rest of the device, so this is essentially charging a capacitor.

Another type of current that can charge a cap in this scenario is displacement current. Basically, that unconnected lead to the cap acts as an antenna and can pick up radiation. It would likely need to be rectified to be significant, but it's still possible.

The real test would be if you placed the cap in a shield, like a Faraday cage, and in a vacuum. By conventional theory, it will not gather charge.

Maxwell
07-02-2008, 12:53 AM
Will have to look for a book to study in parallel with my electromagnetic studies at university. I feel that it will be hard semester.

The quote here of Eric Dollard is actually a quote of Charles Proteus Steinmetz. Tehnoman, you might try finding texts by Steinmetz. I just went to my local university library and found several of his books (by the library card of one, I am the first to check it out - makes sense I guess).

Aaron
07-02-2008, 02:03 AM
You can download almost any old book for free here:
Internet Archive: Text Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/texts)

In dejavu format or pdf, etc...

theremart
07-02-2008, 02:23 AM
I thought this was cool...

"How to signal Mars by Tesla"

http://ia340924.us.archive.org/0/items/Tesla_1909/Tesla_1909.pdf

:)

tjnlsn255
07-02-2008, 12:36 PM
Does the second trigger wire have to be wound opposite the first trigger wire?

If so can it be wound after the bifiler is completed and right on top of the other two wires but in the opposite direction?

Thank you.....

Todd

Cool Jet, will be good to have a comparison for the two different grades of magnets!

My large rotor is a six pole, the longer rotor is just two magnets side by side, same polarity facing out. One big long north or south)

It is configured in traditional window motor fashion with alternating poles in such a way that at 180 degrees there are opposite polarities. (Coincidently I noted on one of JB's notes said "can be 2, 6, 12 pole." but 12 pole doesnt match up at 180 degree opposites, it should be 10 I think. Any number with its half being an odd number I think.)

If you wind it with two triggers you can use switching on both poles. I would say trigger wires are the way to go, hall sensors could be fiddly. But who knows with the neos. Look forward to seeing it come alive mate. :cheers:

tjnlsn255
07-02-2008, 03:18 PM
Why not just use a voltage regulator like in a car alternator.....

The whole idea is to keep the battery(s) full but not over charge, right?

I am just an amateur so I may be missing something....

Todd

I had this idea I am going to experiment with thought I would let you guys in on it. I was trying to think of a simple peak switch that would turn on when the voltage rises past a certain point. Well they make those and are commonly available and used as surge suppressors. the part is carlled a varistor. or MOS varistor. and what they do is conduct current when they reach the clamping voltage. Usually they are only hooked up to suppress surges and spikes in the power line. So I thought why not hokk one in searies with a capacitor so that when it reaches a cetain voltage it can discharge into a battery or a coil. it would save on having to make the bedini wheel with the pully and the cam with a switch to fire the cap into the battery. just hook a varistor in series with the cap and then when it gets up to the selected voltage it fires into the battery. you can get them with various clamping voltages and they have a super fast respons time. It may also be good for firing a coil with a fast rise time. I am just thinking at thins point and have not obtained one to test it.
Here is some information.

varistor: Definition and Much More from Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/varistor?cat=technology)

theremart
07-02-2008, 03:57 PM
Does the second trigger wire have to be wound opposite the first trigger wire?

If so can it be wound after the bifiler is completed and right on top of the other two wires but in the opposite direction?

Thank you.....

Todd

I wind mine after the power coil. It seems to do better for me. It is easier to try different lengths of trigger wire as well if you use this method.

Mart

Jetijs
07-02-2008, 09:15 PM
Hi ren :)
I started to read through all 3k posts on window motor group at yahoo, this will take a while. I passed by a post where it is said that the steel rotor will give more torque but less RPMs. The steel is used because of the flywheel effect and because it is magnetic and all attached magnets this way form kind of one big magnet. I ordered my neos, they will be 4"x1"x1" - very strong. Each one of these can lift about 190 pounds of weight :eek: :suprise:
They are talking that the basic window motor should have two coils with 350 turns. One wire should be smaller and other thicker, just like in SSG. But some of them are also talking about a third winding that should be wound with a twice as long wire and this is called the generator winding. I do not quite understand this so far, but I am also gotten through about 50 messages. Do you know something about this third winding and its functions? And what about magnet distance to windings? Is smaller gap better? It's just that I want to learn as much as I can about window motors before I start building it as soon as my magnets arrive.
Thanks!

ren
07-02-2008, 09:18 PM
The second trigger doesnt have to be wound in reverse, you simply switch the ends.

So on one half of the full circuit you would send the end of your coil to the emitter and the start through your resistance to base, and on the other half you would send the end of your coil through resistance to base and the start to the emitter. One picks up the north and the other picks up the south. Make sense?

tjnlsn255
07-03-2008, 12:23 AM
Yes it sort of makes sense...

I was planning to have two bifiler coils 90 degrees apart with seperate half circuits like in the Bedini notes but your description about picking up north and south is starting to make sense.....thanks!

Can you tell me where the "power coil" start and end go in the half circuit? That is very confusing..... In the half circuit drawing the "C" point has a dot... does that mean start or end.... thanks again......! Same for trigger... what does "A" with a dot mean.... start or end...?

I saw one window circuit on youtube that had all North poles instead of NSNSNS etc....

Like an SSG....Can this work? What is it about the "window winding" that is different than a "spool winding"?

Todd

ren
07-03-2008, 07:30 AM
It should work either way with the half circuit, as long as you wire up the power winding the same way as the trigger winding. The dot usually signifies the top of the coil.

The window motor could work with all norths I guess, but it couldnt have same poles @ 180 degrees , or the window coils would have to be offset. EDIT: Do you mean the half circuit on the monopole? That can be done, but it isnt a true window motor as it uses a cored electromagnet


There are lots of differences between the two. For starters there is no core...

theremart
07-09-2008, 10:44 PM
This one has been said to of run for over a month...

S-Cage Stator and Reed Switch-Driven Bedini-Cole Commutator Large Window Motor (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7452474794962152906&q=&hl=en)

MAJOR COIL THERE!

ren
07-09-2008, 11:11 PM
Hi ren :)
I started to read through all 3k posts on window motor group at yahoo, this will take a while. I passed by a post where it is said that the steel rotor will give more torque but less RPMs. The steel is used because of the flywheel effect and because it is magnetic and all attached magnets this way form kind of one big magnet. I ordered my neos, they will be 4"x1"x1" - very strong. Each one of these can lift about 190 pounds of weight :eek: :suprise:
They are talking that the basic window motor should have two coils with 350 turns. One wire should be smaller and other thicker, just like in SSG. But some of them are also talking about a third winding that should be wound with a twice as long wire and this is called the generator winding. I do not quite understand this so far, but I am also gotten through about 50 messages. Do you know something about this third winding and its functions? And what about magnet distance to windings? Is smaller gap better? It's just that I want to learn as much as I can about window motors before I start building it as soon as my magnets arrive.
Thanks!


Hi Jet, dude I missed your post somehow! I dont have access to the window motor forums, Im glad you gave me that tidbit of information about the steel. I will have to see how it performs for me. I am planning to wind a generator coil around my multifilar arrangement, the way I see it is this. If you are turning your rotor with pulses the generator coil can be used like a pickup winding, collecting potential from the rotating magnetic field. The pulses going through the drive windings are only going to increase this effect IMO. So if we can capture alot off this winding into a cap and have it dump out of phase back into the front end then perhaps we can supplement some or all of the input?

I am going to have a very fine air gap, (precise rotor a must as always) Probably in the 1-2 mm range. Remember to leave enough space for some zip ties around the coil in a couple of places too. Make sure your rotor is all sorted before you wind your coil, or make it removeable. You will have to use your imagination around the shaft and bearings to keep the wire clear. I reckon a small aluminum rim from a car or motorcycle could make a great rotor for those neos. Youd have to mount them sturdy though.

Those neos sound tasty:cheers: be careful with them! Look forward to seeing some results. I am looking at getting my wire within the next week. Happy Coiling! And let me know if you come across any more tidbits from the window motor forums!

Ren

PS heres a little pic from John that sorta explains the generator winding.

ren
07-10-2008, 08:48 AM
Hey MArt nice find on that S coil:thumbsup: Interesting approach.

tjnlsn255
07-10-2008, 03:22 PM
Is there a minimum magnetic field downtime for the motor to work?

I have a 4" diameter pvc pipe rotor and my magnets are 2" wide so they will be very close together if I use 6 magnets at 60 degrees of seperation.... or should I just start out with two magnets 180 degrees apart? Do more magnetic field pulses per rotation give more torque/mechanical force?

Second question, I have plenty of 24 and 20 guage wire, if i twist two or more strands of 24 or 20 guage wire together and connect the ends, will I effectively have one wire of a thicker guage for more current and torque?

My goal is to get this window motor to spin the rotor of one or more car alternators to charge a bank of batteries......;-)

Thank you for any and all suggestions.....

Todd

ren
07-11-2008, 06:51 AM
John has tried various designs, Ive seen some that have the edges of the magnets touching. Its up to you to determine what works best I think, remember if your magnets are strong they need to be fixed down well, and you'll want to make sure it is well balanced etc before doing any permanent gluing.

I like your thoughts on turning a conventional load, but its kind of working backwards. You have your rotating magnetic field within your motor, you can pick up a fair bit of energy off that! Thats not to say you cant have an energizer that is driven mechanically, but an alternator (it would most likely have to be a PMM type) will have considerable cogging/magnetic friction and your window will need to be very powerful to turn it.

I would try to get the 6 poles on if you can, the wire you have should work ok. If you want to switch on both poles wind two trigger wires with your power, and if you want recovery wind a big recovery coil at least twice as long as your power winding.

Im no guru, but thats my advice.

tjnlsn255
07-11-2008, 05:36 PM
Hi Ren,

Thank you for the info....

I just want to be clear on your comments on the coils.... so basically I need 4 windings.... two triggers, a recovery, and a power coil, is that correct?

Is there a schematic for this configuration?

Have a most excellent day.....

Todd

ren
07-11-2008, 11:26 PM
Todd, you could get this to work with only one winding. It would involve a device like a hall or opto to do the triggering though. My suggestion of four windings was to allow for you to configure it anyway you choose and allow for testing of various configurations.

If you are just wanting to build a basic model you can so easily with two windings, there are schematics in this thread already for those. If you wind them all you dont have to use them all at once.:thumbsup:

tjnlsn255
07-12-2008, 12:19 AM
Thanks Ren,

I agree that it will be a lot more flexable if I wind 4 to start and then use them as I need them....

I measured my rotor and I think I have about 1/2 inch between each row of magnets if I do the 6 pole so I will start with two and build up to the 6 once I get everything working.....

Question about PC Oscopes.... Does anyone have any suggestions for a PC based Oscope? I see one for $169 that is USB based that does a lot of things.... Is there one that is more basic than that for under $100?

:thumbsup:

Todd

darkwizard
08-25-2008, 03:52 PM
hi Jetijs, I think that the generator coil is placed with the others windings in order to generate extra power to make the bedini window motor overunity without having to do any work over an air-core-coil .

I Had built an bedini cole circuit with a monopole coil not a window motor, and is very efficient , here im saying that it generates .98 of what it takes to move the rotor, and i'm thinking that an third coil will produce the overunity.

I take the basic bedini cole circuit, it is best than the full sequential bipolar version, sorry ren, you can re-make this, and your motor will be overunity.

Note that the full cole circuit is for using the hall ic's, in that case is better, but if you are using coils the best choice is simple bedini cole circuit.

Sorry for my bad english i'm from Argentina..

:)

darkwizard
08-25-2008, 03:59 PM
http://www.icehouse.net/john1/mot1.jpg

This is how looks my motor like John Bedini monopole version of bedini/cole circuit.


Thanks John Bedini, I love you!! I UNDERSTAND YOU!

darkwizard
08-25-2008, 04:05 PM
I have my motor running for two hours continous and the battery dropped 0.05 volts.

theremart
08-25-2008, 05:20 PM
hey jet, its this one here. Pots on all resistors. The one between the pnp base and the small npn (I used mpsa06) will dramatically decrease amp draw if its high resistance (1k plus). Still tinkering with it, I'll post the exact schematic I used soon. This schematic isolates the power winding at all times except for when it fires, not like the SG circuit in which the coil is an extension of the run battery. Thats my understanding anyway.

NOG, this rotor is so tiny, and I have no way to load it properly. Im building a bigger one at the moment, it will be able to be loaded sufficiently.

Hi Ren,

Could I get your schematic from you on this, I looked at this post and did not see it.

Thanks!

darkwizard
08-25-2008, 09:38 PM
Hey theremart this is the circuit http://www.energenx.com/john34/dsw1.jpg

ren
08-25-2008, 10:27 PM
Hi guys,

@ Dark Wizard. I have run it off the full and half circuit, using trigger coils in both instances. To do so I just have to disconnect one trigger wire and it becomes the half circuit. The halls for timing were a bit difficult for me, anyway, I am happy with the triggers as they are. They allow me to run higher voltages safely and easily. I have run it for over 5 hours and lost .01 of a volt, but the torque is nearly non existent at this draw. Anyway 500ma isnt much to pay for the speed and torque it puts out. Plus charging on the back end.:thumbsup:

@ Mart. The schematic is the half circuit that I was reffering to. You can find it here http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YCuzSCVNo9T6b6gghwCkn8lssx-A0c6IH3T9sV_WtP4dwPkbiCwzzhhshewMoSiZqJXALyMFkPV7-hqRjpjc3SCQqWfqSPzf/Magnetic%20Window%20Motor%20Files/mcct1.jpg
The 3k resistor is the one I am reffering to. Make it 220 ohms with a 2k pot to start with. If its too high you cant get it up to speed.

Let me know if you need more info.

Ren

theremart
08-25-2008, 10:34 PM
http://www.icehouse.net/john1/mot1.jpg

This is how looks my motor like John Bedini monopole version of bedini/cole circuit.


Thanks John Bedini, I love you!! I UNDERSTAND YOU!


Ok Wiz, you have built this circuit?

Ren, is this close to what you have?

Mart

darkwizard
08-25-2008, 10:58 PM
With 3.3k the motor doesn't run but i put a 2k potentiometer here and i could regulate the trigger current in order to switch on PNP and NPN.

I use an ST ELECTRONICS PNP MJ2955, and two motorola NPN 2N3055 , first i put mjl 21194 here but 2n3055 "junk" run better. I don't know why, but junkyard 2n3055 bipolar transistor performs better on my circuit.

tecknomancer
08-25-2008, 11:31 PM
my small bedini motor works great with 2n3055 but MJL21194 are less effective I know the MJL21194 is an excellent chip to use it in my motor controller but for some reason seems less effective when using Neodymium magnets.

darkwizard
08-26-2008, 12:05 AM
Bedini cole circuit uses mj2955 PNP and 2n3055 npn, i'm talking about put an mjl 21194 instead an 2n3055 , doesn`t make any visible difference.

mj2955 PNP cannot be replaced by an 2n3055 NPN.

Basically bedini cole circuit is the original circuit, that recharges the primary battery.

darkwizard
08-26-2008, 12:14 AM
My experience with this system is that it works better with an iron core flux transformer , as showed bedini on the 2004 patent, extra/generator coils must be window coils as showed by rick friedrich in his ssg self runner window version. The extra window coils must be connected on series with a hall switching device trough a diode bridge to a battery , the pulses of high electroscalar potential must elevate the voltage, and overcome overunity.

ren
08-26-2008, 12:31 AM
neos could be the problem there tecknmoancer(lol, love that name:rofl: ) the 2n3055 is a great little transistor, shouldnt be underestimated.:thumbsup: I wonder if your MJL was a genuine one, probably worth checking out this page

Counterfeit Transistors (http://sound.westhost.com/fake/counterfeit-p3.htm)

goes for anyone who is buying these.

@ Mart, when I started this thread it was in relation to the little build I had done. EDIT: oops I think I have removed the pics I originally posted. Im running out of room for attachments, I can email you some of them if you need em:thumbsup:

This little coil of bifilar 0.5 is switching a two pole HDD rotor with the half circuit as pictured in the link above. I cant remember exact resistances but I will give you this to start with.

Build a sg circuit with the mpsao6. Dont attach any coils. Make sure you check the pins, the middle one is the base! Be careful when soldering, its very small and easy to damage. Use 1n914 for the E-B diode and dont put any output diode on it. 100-500 ohm fixed resistor and a 1-5k pot

Next get a PNP (Darkwizard I used the same ones as you:thumbsup: ) and wire the emitter to your positive power supply and or Cap. Also wire 470 ohm resistor between Emitter and base. For these T03 style casings its as simple as 470ohms across the two pins. You can experiment with different resistances here, but this will get it running. Now here comes the part that we are talking about which can alter your amperage up and down really well.

Wire a 220ohms resistor off the base of the PNP (you can add a 1-2k pot here for tweaking, but start it with low resistance) and then connect that to the COLLECTOR of the MPSAO6. The emitter of that then goes to the base of the complimentary NPN, no resistance necessary (though I have never tested anything here??).

Whatever configuration you have used for your PNP use also for the NPN. That is, 470 ohms on the PNP equals 470 ohms on the NPN. This is easy again for the T03, just wire it across the pins. The emitter goes to the negative of your circuits source.

The drive/power coil/s go between the collectors of the NPN and PNP, the signal MPS has the trigger coil hooked to the base/emitter in SG fashion. If you are using a superpole rotor (souths and norths) one polarity will pick up and fire on the norths, the other polarity will pick up and fire on the souths. You will need to inverse the power coil to match the trigger coil if you arent using the full circuit.

Bridge comes off the power coil, in this case just use one of the other collector terminals on your TO3's.

Im pretty confident you know how to build it Mart, so this is for anyone else who may be struggling to comprehend it.

tecknomancer
08-26-2008, 02:33 AM
neos could be the problem there tecknmoancer(lol, love that name:rofl: ) the 2n3055 is a great little transistor, shouldnt be underestimated.:thumbsup: I wonder if your MJL was a genuine one, probably worth checking out this page

Counterfeit Transistors (http://sound.westhost.com/fake/counterfeit-p3.htm)

goes for anyone who is buying these.

@ Mart, when I started this thread it was in relation to the little build I had done. EDIT: oops I think I have removed the pics I originally posted. Im running out of room for attachments, I can email you some of them if you need em:thumbsup:

This little coil of bifilar 0.5 is switching a two pole HDD rotor with the half circuit as pictured in the link above. I cant remember exact resistances but I will give you this to start with.

Build a sg circuit with the mpsao6. Dont attach any coils. Make sure you check the pins, the middle one is the base! Be careful when soldering, its very small and easy to damage. Use 1n914 for the E-B diode and dont put any output diode on it. 100-500 ohm fixed resistor and a 1-5k pot

Next get a PNP (Darkwizard I used the same ones as you:thumbsup: ) and wire the emitter to your positive power supply and or Cap. Also wire 470 ohm resistor between Emitter and base. For these T03 style casings its as simple as 470ohms across the two pins. You can experiment with different resistances here, but this will get it running. Now here comes the part that we are talking about which can alter your amperage up and down really well.

Wire a 220ohms resistor off the base of the PNP (you can add a 1-2k pot here for tweaking, but start it with low resistance) and then connect that to the COLLECTOR of the MPSAO6. The emitter of that then goes to the base of the complimentary NPN, no resistance necessary (though I have never tested anything here??).

Whatever configuration you have used for your PNP use also for the NPN. That is, 470 ohms on the PNP equals 470 ohms on the NPN. This is easy again for the T03, just wire it across the pins. The emitter goes to the negative of your circuits source.

The drive/power coil/s go between the collectors of the NPN and PNP, the signal MPS has the trigger coil hooked to the base/emitter in SG fashion. If you are using a superpole rotor (souths and norths) one polarity will pick up and fire on the norths, the other polarity will pick up and fire on the souths. You will need to inverse the power coil to match the trigger coil if you arent using the full circuit.

Bridge comes off the power coil, in this case just use one of the other collector terminals on your TO3's.

Im pretty confident you know how to build it Mart, so this is for anyone else who may be struggling to comprehend it.
thanks ren for the link, I checked out my MJL21194 they were the real deal as for my mistaken chip number MJ2955, may I just say DOH!!!:wall: pulls his foot squarely out of his mouth and says sorry :embarrassed:

darkwizard
08-26-2008, 01:34 PM
Ren, i love your motor!!! The best window motor on the web!:thumbsup:

Your motor is very strong , it will move a car alternator?

darkwizard
08-26-2008, 06:29 PM
Ok, i will put this in other form, take your trigger coils and put all of them connected in series and connect this to a diode bridge , this will turn your bedini cole circuit into a generator, and take some of what is producing to the primary battery in order to increase the volts here, and the trigger - transistor switching can be replaced by hall efect transistors or reed switch like on the adam bedini version motor.

This will produce the overunity, because you are generating a pulse in order to switch the transistors in the order of the battery voltage , with hall switching devices you will waste some energy of the primary battery but you will gain a little more in the coils.

Original Bedini/Cole sequential bipolar circuit is as it is but some reason , that is the reason that the upgraded circuit doesn´t have any trigger coil, because it will switch trough the hall effect and battery voltage, more resistance is needed in order to use little current of the primary.

It is a simple experiment, you don´t have to pay anything in order to get the energy. Faithfully!

darkwizard
08-26-2008, 08:12 PM
http://web.archive.org/web/20000902201540/http://www.icehouse.net/john1/amm1.jpg

this was the bedini adam motor i'm talking about the only thing that one has to do is convert the bedini cole trigger coils into generator coils and bingo, this circuit has two pnp and one npn and one hall switch

darkwizard
08-26-2008, 09:22 PM
http://www.energeticforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1062&stc=1&d=1219785673

This is what i'm talking about.

darkwizard
08-26-2008, 09:35 PM
The best timing for this device is what John was showing in his window motor without battery.

this link

http://www.icehouse.net/john34/bedinicolemotor.mpg

John uses this circuit but instead of putting a reed switch he will use an hall efect transistor

darkwizard
08-26-2008, 10:30 PM
Bedini uses an extra transistor, and i think that he is using an extra power coil

darkwizard
08-27-2008, 10:27 PM
My modification, i have two trigger coils , two power coils, one reed switch.

The wheel is 4 north pole magnet, it generates 9 radiant pulses per revolution, all the radiant spikes are the same size in voltage, if you decrease the pulse quantity the radiant spike will be the same size in voltage, this is counterfeiting the standart back emf production , in the standard back emf the spike will decrease the voltage when you gives more hertz.

This is my experience with that system, when given more pulses it will give you more radiant energy and more spin momentum, it will be recharging his own battery plus it will be more faster, it will drain a litle bit more of current of the battery but you will recharge it with the radiant powerful spike more faster.

Add many reed switches and trigger coil as you can and it will produce more speed for the same energy is consuming.

Sorry my bad english plus dyslexia i have.

darkwizard
08-28-2008, 03:37 PM
My last experiment was adding another trigger coil with a diode in order to add another pulse to the transistor, it run like hell and doesn't draw significant power to run more rpm , because it generates the power that is consuming.:thumbsup:

patmac
08-29-2008, 04:52 PM
I like your improvement, that powerfull effect generated by motor-generator mass flywhell says much about how works our universe: in my concept flywheel spin and g force create expansion (explosion) and while spin down (implosion).... I would like test it too.

darkwizard
08-30-2008, 12:27 AM
Patmac this motor is from John Bedini old website, the adam-bedini motor but this motor doesn't give you the possibilities that a window motor gives.

fdoca
05-17-2009, 11:57 PM
Ren:

The link is no longer valid, is possible email a link for the half circuit?
my email is edwu1 at yahoo dot com

Quoted "The schematic is the half circuit that I was reffering to. You can find it here [url]http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/YCuzSCVNo9T6b6gghwCkn8lssx-A0c6IH3T9sV_WtP4dwPkbiCwzzhhshewMoSiZqJXALyMFkPV7-hqRjpjc3SCQqWfqSPzf/Magnetic%20Window%20Motor%20Files/mcct1.jpg "

Thank you
Ed:cheers:

ren
05-18-2009, 02:45 AM
Full circuit here

http://rpmgt.org/SequentialBipolarCircuit.jpg

Half here http://rpmgt.org/mot.jpg

or here http://www.rexresearch.com/bedini/6392-2.gif

or here http://www.esmhome.org/library/bedini/window/bedini-window-schematics.jpg

Huckmubb
07-31-2009, 04:28 PM
Sorry but there is a lot of confusion here.

I am trying to build a window motor to run off a capacitor. I want 1 power winding, 2 trigger windings and a 4th generator winding. The generator winding should work if it is the same length as the other windings. However, I've read that the generator winding needs to be twice as long? Is this true? Does anyone have any experience with running these motors from a capacitor only? Do I have to use Hall sensors to get it to run from a capacitor like Bedini or mike did?

lanenal
08-01-2009, 10:47 PM
Full circuit here

http://rpmgt.org/SequentialBipolarCircuit.jpg

Half here http://rpmgt.org/mot.jpg

or here http://www.rexresearch.com/bedini/6392-2.gif

or here http://www.esmhome.org/library/bedini/window/bedini-window-schematics.jpg

Thanks Ren, that's great! Which one do you recommend for a starter: the Full or the Half? Edit: Just very curious, Ren: does your motor runs cold? Thanks!

Watson
08-04-2009, 02:41 PM
Thanks Ren, that's great! Which one do you recommend for a starter: the Full or the Half? Edit: Just very curious, Ren: does your motor runs cold? Thanks!

I looked at the Bedini/ Cole Lab Notes (http://www.esmhome.org/library/bedini/window/bedini-window-schematics.jpg) schematic and I have some questions, I'm hoping someone can further my understanding of this circuit.

The two power transistors are acting as switches.
They both turn on and off in unison.
They simultaneously switch both top and bottom of the coil.

I notice that the full wave bridge rectifier effectively connects the coil to the battery when the switching transistors are open. My thinking is that it would be more efficient to connect one of the the coil leads directly to the battery and eliminate a diode drop, thus saving energy.

This would effectively bypass one of the switching transistors.
So, is it really necessary to switch both top and bottom, when a single switch at the top or the bottom, but not both, would seem to be sufficient?

Thank you for any help understanding this circuit.

lanenal
08-04-2009, 04:07 PM
I looked at the Bedini/ Cole Lab Notes (http://www.esmhome.org/library/bedini/window/bedini-window-schematics.jpg) schematic and I have some questions, I'm hoping someone can further my understanding of this circuit.

The two power transistors are acting as switches.
They both turn on and off in unison.
They simultaneously switch both top and bottom of the coil.

I notice that the full wave bridge rectifier effectively connects the coil to the battery when the switching transistors are open. My thinking is that it would be more efficient to connect one of the the coil leads directly to the battery and eliminate a diode drop, thus saving energy.

This would effectively bypass one of the switching transistors.
So, is it really necessary to switch both top and bottom, when a single switch at the top or the bottom, but not both, would seem to be sufficient?

Thank you for any help understanding this circuit.

@Watson: I have not validated my view by any means yet, but according to my experience with JT circuits, this thing has similarity with JT, but there are quite some differences as well.

By static comparison with JT circuits (Weekend Projects with Bre Pettis: Make a Joule Thief - Evil Mad Scientist Laboratories (http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article.php/joulethief)), I notice that the trigger coil in JT can be also powered by the batteries, while the trigger coil in this circuit (http://rpmgt.org/mot.jpg) can not. This difference in static structure is so designed for the different way of excitation of them: JT circuits are excited by the current in the trigger coil from the batteries (for those who are curious, here is my original post on JT circuits: http://www.energeticforum.com/55206-post377.html), but these ones are excited by the leaving (yes, the leaving, not the approaching) of the magnet on the rotating wheel. On the other hand, the quenching of the current in the power coils for both circuits follows almost identical mechanism, which I will not repeat here, you can see http://www.energeticforum.com/55206-post377.html for the details.

Hope this somehow helps. :cheers:

lanenal

lanenal
08-04-2009, 04:37 PM
You might also want to do some research on Adams motor, for this is essentially Adams motor, the circuit is a realization.

This figure below shows that Bedini didn't deny that fact:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010622051642/www.icehouse.net/john1/amm1.jpg

Below are some good sites for Adams motor:
The Adams Motor - Tim Harwood's Guide from The Encyclopedia of free energy,energy21.org,energy 21 org Geoff Egel (http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/adamsmotor.htm)
The Adams Motor Page (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/1287/adams/adamsall.htm)


Edit: I suspect that if we stick strictly to the specifications on building the coil and rotor as per Adams Motor, we would eventually observe the cold-run and over-unity effect.

I looked at the Bedini/ Cole Lab Notes (http://www.esmhome.org/library/bedini/window/bedini-window-schematics.jpg) schematic and I have some questions, I'm hoping someone can further my understanding of this circuit.

The two power transistors are acting as switches.
They both turn on and off in unison.
They simultaneously switch both top and bottom of the coil.

I notice that the full wave bridge rectifier effectively connects the coil to the battery when the switching transistors are open. My thinking is that it would be more efficient to connect one of the the coil leads directly to the battery and eliminate a diode drop, thus saving energy.

This would effectively bypass one of the switching transistors.
So, is it really necessary to switch both top and bottom, when a single switch at the top or the bottom, but not both, would seem to be sufficient?

Thank you for any help understanding this circuit.

lanenal
08-14-2009, 03:59 PM
Full circuit here
http://rpmgt.org/SequentialBipolarCircuit.jpg


Here is a simplified sequential bipolar circuit: Use only one trigger coil instead of two. ;)

lanenal
08-14-2009, 04:21 PM
Here is a simplified sequential bipolar circuit: Use only one trigger coil instead of two. ;)

It also consumes less energy in the triggering part.

lanenal
08-18-2009, 03:38 AM
Here is a modified Adams Motor circuit from Tim Harwood's Hall IC switching one.

Advantage of this new circuit: BEMF high voltage will not hurt the Hall IC, being protected by the 2N3055 transistor :thumbsup: .

lanenal

You might also want to do some research on Adams motor, for this is essentially Adams motor, the circuit is a realization.

This figure below shows that Bedini didn't deny that fact:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010622051642/www.icehouse.net/john1/amm1.jpg

Below are some good sites for Adams motor:
The Adams Motor - Tim Harwood's Guide from The Encyclopedia of free energy,energy21.org,energy 21 org Geoff Egel (http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/adamsmotor.htm)
The Adams Motor Page (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/1287/adams/adamsall.htm)


Edit: I suspect that if we stick strictly to the specifications on building the coil and rotor as per Adams Motor, we would eventually observe the cold-run and over-unity effect.

redeagle
10-17-2009, 02:00 PM
I am working on a flux gate motor. I am planning to setup a bi polar circuit. I was wondering if anyone had tried using a single trigger with diodes to direct the voltage to the correct small transistors so that you can have the same effect with only a bifilar coil. This had been the one thing that i haven't understood about the standard circuit for a while because the trigger has that diode on it to bypass the transistor for reverse flow of current. It makes more sense to me that if you are going to let it flow then you should use it.

Just my take on it but I haven't drawn out the schematic or tested for shorts either.

redeagle
10-18-2009, 05:26 AM
I got to test that Idea today about using the single trigger wire and diodes to run the circuit it works just fine. I am using a flux gate style motor. Axial mounted coils between the magnets. Though it is not fast enough to get into the high output zone, I'm still excited that it worked. Now I just have to work on eliminating losses and adding generating capacity.

WOO HOO

cody
10-31-2009, 09:19 PM
ren or anyone else who knows,

Do you know the purpose of having a switch on both sides of the coil? Standard bedinis have one switch, why does this one have two? What is this allowing us to do thats different? Obviously its completly isolating the coil, I think, but what good is that? Is this allowing the collapsing field to be put back into the run battery? Bedini shows several designs that have a switch on either side of the coil, i have always wondered why. Does anyone know?

ren
10-31-2009, 09:41 PM
Hi Cody,

its a good question, one that I have pondered a bit myself.

I will give you my take on it.

Yes, as you say the coil is totally isolated from the driving battery until it is called upon to switch on. I see this as allowing the coil to be considered a generator coil at all times, when the switch is off that is. It would depend upon how you have the bridge configured as to whether it was sending charge to the run battery or the drive battery.

This configuration from my studies doesnt seem to give as large an inductive kick as the SG circuits. Infact, a capacitor off the bridge in my builds only charged to double the input voltage, and no higher. Also on my scope the spikes dont go anywhere near as high. This could just be my failure to build correctly of course, but the SG circuit on the same rotor brings those familiar inductive spikes out straight away.

Aarons comments on the coil in the SG circuit being an extension of the positive terminal and having potential already sitting inside it comes to mind. I feel that having this connection to the batteries terminal at all times plays an important role in producing that inductive spike. But I could be wrong.

One thing that interested me as well was the difference in functions of the circuits. The SG will build up its input current steadily until it hits its sweet spot. Any drag on the rotor DECREASES input current.

The bipolar circuit is the opposite. Full current on startup (defined by ON time, resistance of coil/circuit and input voltage) but at top speed input is at its minimum. I would hazard a guess and say that this is partly due to the nature of the triggering of the circuit. The faster it goes, the quicker the ON time gets. But it has to be more than that, as the SG circuit does the opposite, despite being timed in an almost identical fashion.

There are other benefits in using the bipolar circuit, Im hoping to show some of these soon, but I am still waiting for more parts to be machined and assembled. Hopefully I can add to a couple of these threads that I started some time ago.

Thanks for your interest.

Regards

nvisser
11-01-2009, 08:12 AM
That circuit is to allow you to feed voltage back to the drive battery
You are not suppose to feed the spikes back while the battery is supplying
the coil.
The pnp switch the positive and the npn switch the negative . The moment they swith off , the battery is isolated from the coil and the (reactive power) spike can be fed to the battery. Then your total power draw from the battery are less and I suppose you can use a second generator coil to generate voltage to charge a second battery.
I think it will be good to put a cap in parralel with the battery . It will absorb the spike faster then the battery and make it available again
I also found that my ssg runs much faster with this circuit

cody
12-05-2009, 12:16 AM
will this circuit self oscillate like a regular bedini circuit?

ren
12-05-2009, 12:30 AM
yes, given the right resistances.

shubhamforme
09-13-2010, 06:46 PM
hi there, i am working on the bedini and ron window motor,,,
can i use this battery to self recharge my 7amp 12v lead acid battery???
and can this circuit be a self runner and recharge my battery when ever it goes down???
can it work???
here is the circuit--
http://www.freeuploadimages.org/viewer.php?file=hi5ytisua4caidzicax.jpg
thx

shubhamforme
09-13-2010, 06:46 PM
hi there, i am working on the bedini and ron window motor,,,
can i use this battery to self recharge my 7amp 12v lead acid battery???
and can this circuit be a self runner and recharge my battery when ever it goes down???
can it work???
here is the circuit--
Free Upload Images (http://www.freeuploadimages.org/viewer.php?file=hi5ytisua4caidzicax.jpg)
thx

Bhargav
10-01-2010, 02:59 PM
Hey Ren ,
Got so inspired looking at your replications , i got myself the Window motor KitB to play with .Thanks for the tutorial !!! Got one full sequential bi-polar circuit connected to one motor winding ( has 2 small and one bigger wire ) going on 12V . Motor runs but can be stopped by hand on trying.

Now i have two more sets of windings ( secondary windings ) , but they seem to have only two ends each ie One secondary winding has 2 ends only .
I made my second full sequential bi polar circuit but cant figure out how to connect the 2 ends in a circuit which needs 6 ends .

SO , can you please help me out with some basics :

1) What is a motor coil?
2) What is the drive coil depicted in Bedini window motor circuit ?
3) What is the purpose of having secondary windings ?
4) How do i use multiple windings/circuits to extract maximum torque from one motor ?

I have attached a picture of my circuit replication running the motor ... I am just in process of putting a reed switch on the circuit and will post the pictures when i have them operational. I broke the one that came with the kit :rolleyes: Damn them reed switches are fragile.

Long time since you updated , how is going on your replication ...

Thanks,
Bhargav

Regards,
Bhargav

ren
10-04-2010, 04:00 AM
Hi Bhargav,

Ok I see a problem with your setup.

Your coils arent aligned properly. You can see the recesses in the coil former where the wires should sit. I dont have one of these kits but from what I can see you should have all coils (stator) aligned to the magnets (rotor) at the same time. If this is the case then all coils can be timed to fire at the same time, thus only needing one set of trigger coils. By the look of it those coils could be wound a bit tighter too. This is the easiest method because it doesnt require a separate circuit for each power winding. You can join all coils together in parallel, as long as the polarity is correct. If it is not it will slow the rotor down. Each coil you connect should speed it up. You can parallel as many as you like within the same phase, within the ratings of the circuit.

If you want the coils to fire at different times (phasing) then each phase will need its own triggering method.

Regards

minoly
10-04-2010, 03:23 PM
`Hey Ren ,
Got so inspired looking at your replications , i got myself the Window motor KitB to play with .Thanks for the tutorial !!! Got one full sequential bi-polar circuit connected to one motor winding ( has 2 small and one bigger wire ) going on 12V . Motor runs but can be stopped by hand on trying.

Now i have two more sets of windings ( secondary windings ) , but they seem to have only two ends each ie One secondary winding has 2 ends only .
I made my second full sequential bi polar circuit but cant figure out how to connect the 2 ends in a circuit which needs 6 ends .

SO , can you please help me out with some basics :

1) What is a motor coil?
2) What is the drive coil depicted in Bedini window motor circuit ?
3) What is the purpose of having secondary windings ?
4) How do i use multiple windings/circuits to extract maximum torque from one motor ?

I have attached a picture of my circuit replication running the motor ... I am just in process of putting a reed switch on the circuit and will post the pictures when i have them operational. I broke the one that came with the kit :rolleyes: Damn them reed switches are fragile.

Long time since you updated , how is going on your replication ...

Thanks,
Bhargav

Regards,
Bhargav

Secure those magnets now!
I can't tell from the picture, have you secured those magnets?
we thought we did a decent job for 5k RPM using wire and glue, ours flew off at 2k.
also, your motor will show nicely if you peal the paper off the Plexiglas :thumbsup:
Patrick

Bhargav
10-05-2010, 05:52 AM
@ Ren,
Thanks , will make changes and post progress .

@ patrick,
Thanks for the alert .Have put in two part epoxy . Fairly confident on the epoxy to hold on but looking at the newer window motor video that surfaced a few days back on youtube , i will just put a 1.5 mm thk aluminium strap at the ends of magnets to be sure.

Well as you too have rick's kit , can you please point where to connect the trigger wires when using the reed switch/hall switch circuit . dont know if i can post the circuit here ??? The connection isnt shown in the circuit provided.

How do we effectively utilize the three circuits provided and the one primary coil ( has 6 ends ) and two secondary coils ( has 2 ends each ) ? My goal is to record the highest torque possible with the motor .Rick's instructions cd says we can utilize all three circuits for the coils provided but iam not able to understand how :(

Regards,
Bhargav

Bhargav
10-05-2010, 11:41 AM
Quote : " Original Bedini/Cole sequential bipolar circuit is as it is but some reason , that is the reason that the upgraded circuit doesn´t have any trigger coil, because it will switch trough the hall effect and battery voltage, more resistance is needed in order to use little current of the primary. "

From what Darkwizard had stated above in one of the earlier posts on this thread , the reed switch circuit needs NO TRIGGER WIRES . It only needs the two ends of a coil connected as a power coil.

Can i conclude that :
A single coil can be wound and connected to run the reed switch circuit .

If this is right , then it would explain why Rick says all three circuits can be utilized with the 1 primary and 2 secondary coild that he has supplied.

@Patrick/ Ren,
Did you happen to try something similar ?
Just gonna try it out now and will post pics :) :cheers:

minoly
10-05-2010, 02:49 PM
Quote : " Original Bedini/Cole sequential bipolar circuit is as it is but some reason , that is the reason that the upgraded circuit doesn´t have any trigger coil, because it will switch trough the hall effect and battery voltage, more resistance is needed in order to use little current of the primary. "

From what Darkwizard had stated above in one of the earlier posts on this thread , the reed switch circuit needs NO TRIGGER WIRES . It only needs the two ends of a coil connected as a power coil.

Can i conclude that :
A single coil can be wound and connected to run the reed switch circuit .

If this is right , then it would explain why Rick says all three circuits can be utilized with the 1 primary and 2 secondary coild that he has supplied.

@Patrick/ Ren,
Did you happen to try something similar ?
Just gonna try it out now and will post pics :) :cheers:

the reed and the hall do not require a trigger coil to work. they go in place of the trigger coil. you should have been sent a few extra small pnp's. use the 12volts from primary some resistors and the reed or hall to trigger the small pnp that will trigger the mpsA06 which will in turn trigger the mjl's. just as it shows in the schematic that was included in the kit labeled "pnp for hall/reed". I see you uploaded it to the Monopolemotor group.
seems complicated at first at least it did to us. I think we have the hang of it now.
try it out w/ one - half bi-polar ckt first.
we did not have epoxy, we used super glue and picture frame hanging wire. this all came apart at what we guess was somewhere between 2 and 4 K rpm:embarrassed: .
Patrick

ren
10-05-2010, 08:52 PM
you need a way to retain the magnets if you want to push it hard. It needs to be next to bulletproof, tapes or glues can only go so far. JB showed a window motorB, with stainless retaining plates I believe, that were bolted in. You could achieve a similar purpose with a stainless strap, or tube. The large square edge of the magnet will make things a little difficult for some approaches.

P'nS is on the money for the hall/reed thing. Check the schematic you've been given. The halls (and maybe the reed too?) require a pnp signal transistor in place of the mpsa06. Its easy to muddle up the configurations first time so do what Minoly says and build a half circuit (with the full circuit in mind eventually).

Trade the pnp, note some of the connections and resistance values may be different so trace every line. You probably need the right polarity of a passing magnet to trigger the hall, you will have to check the documentation. You could trigger it off the rotor itself, but a timing disc would be ideal. The Reed could be used in place of everything really, but it wouldnt last long. Im guessing that the reed could be placed in the trigger circuit directly, maybe even replacing the pnp/npn signal altogether. Or you could use it to trigger the pnp/npn signal transistor.

Regards

Bhargav
10-06-2010, 12:01 PM
@ Patrick,
Real thanks for the safety advice :) Makes me feel more confident now for trying higher rpm. Put in an aluminium strap of 2thk around the ends of the magnets . Post pictures a little later today ...

How bad did your setup get hit when your magnets flew off ... Are you still able to run the motor??

Did you happen to try adding more coils in parallel in the reed switch circuit ? Does it sound ELECTRICALLY stupid to try putting all the coils in parallel on the same circuit ??

@ren,
I couldnt positively decide between Aluminium and SS on the video posted . I have made an Aluminium 2 thk strap . Would you see any disadvantage of using Aluminium for the strap ?


Yeah the circuit seems more doable after seeing the full bipolar circuit in operation with the trigger wire setup :) Rick's kit is cool . It provides the replacement for MPSA when using the reed switch circuit . How did it go on the large motor you were building . I have got 12 ceramic magnets 6 x 4 x 1 and was hoping to do your tutorial sort of setup !!! Any tips ...

Did you try paralleling coils with the reed switch circuit as well??

Thanks for the help Patrick and Ren.

Bhargav

minoly
10-06-2010, 05:56 PM
never tried parallel, sounds like a good experiment. I think that's essentially what adding more ckts does, only there's not enough room to keep adding reeds, eh... - put them all in series and watch your amp draw go down. we had just started playing around w/ mechanical commutator switching when it flew apart.
2 of our magnets got busted up beyond use for this motor. some of the Plexiglas is broken. we put it all on the back burner for a while.
we put a couple of vids on our youtube channel min2oly a while back.
look forward to reading more on your progress.:thumbsup:
Patrick

ren
10-08-2010, 01:37 AM
@ren,
I couldnt positively decide between Aluminium and SS on the video posted . I have made an Aluminium 2 thk strap . Would you see any disadvantage of using Aluminium for the strap ?


Yeah the circuit seems more doable after seeing the full bipolar circuit in operation with the trigger wire setup :) Rick's kit is cool . It provides the replacement for MPSA when using the reed switch circuit . How did it go on the large motor you were building . I have got 12 ceramic magnets 6 x 4 x 1 and was hoping to do your tutorial sort of setup !!! Any tips ...

Did you try paralleling coils with the reed switch circuit as well??

Thanks for the help Patrick and Ren.

Bhargav


Should be ok if properly constructed. I did parallel coils, it does make a difference. The large motor has been reconstructed several times. You need to make sure you build it right so it cant come apart. 6x4x1 inch is pretty big. You will probably get better results using halls on this size rather than trigger coils.

Regards

Bhargav
10-08-2010, 06:11 PM
Just finished the assembly of circuit and SS strapped motor . On initial run with only one half circuit and one wire , the wire was heating up . Any idea why this is happening ???

More trials tomorrow !!!

Bhargav
10-13-2010, 01:07 AM
Hello Ren/patrick,
Did a few trials on the setup . Absolutely no problems with trigger wires method . Reed switch circuit looks more challenging to understand. I could run the circuit effectively with only one reed switch connected albeit generating slight heat in the coils and drawing significantly more from the battery than the trigger wire circuit . But as soon as i connect both the reed switches , transistors heat up like crazy and the draw further increases . Tried a few iterations but seems the trigger wire method seems the more effective method to me until now ...

Got a lot of copper wire for the winding . Close to # 26 and #23 awg as SWG is followed around here for wires . Making 100 rounds each of 23,26,26 for one motor winding. Plan to fit in about 9 motor winding . Any suggestions ?

As Rick states in one the posts , if a single thick wire is used , the on time increases which is detrimental to the motor . So looks like we will have to make the motor coils trigger so that 3 of the total 9 motor windings work at a moment , then the next 3 and then the next... Will post a picture to clarify what i plan to do . Any other ideas for triggering? Reed switches seem very fragile and clumsy ! Are halls any better ?

minoly
10-13-2010, 03:28 AM
Hello Ren/patrick,
Did a few trials on the setup . Absolutely no problems with trigger wires method . Reed switch circuit looks more challenging to understand. I could run the circuit effectively with only one reed switch connected albeit generating slight heat in the coils and drawing significantly more from the battery than the trigger wire circuit . But as soon as i connect both the reed switches , transistors heat up like crazy and the draw further increases . Tried a few iterations but seems the trigger wire method seems the more effective method to me until now ...

Got a lot of copper wire for the winding . Close to # 26 and #23 awg as SWG is followed around here for wires . Making 100 rounds each of 23,26,26 for one motor winding. Plan to fit in about 9 motor winding . Any suggestions ?

As Rick states in one the posts , if a single thick wire is used , the on time increases which is detrimental to the motor . So looks like we will have to make the motor coils trigger so that 3 of the total 9 motor windings work at a moment , then the next 3 and then the next... Will post a picture to clarify what i plan to do . Any other ideas for triggering? Reed switches seem very fragile and clumsy ! Are halls any better ?

reeds can be finicky. I think you need to have the pnp transistor trigger the mpsa06 - not replace it. That's how we do it anywho...
We've had much luck w/ halls and trigger coils:whistle:
there is so much you can do w/ the trigger coils.
the on time is only effected by how large/wide the trigger coil is not how large/wide the power coils are.

take a look at our 500 micro amp window motor on youtube. see how we have the trigger coil laid out... your mind is its own limit.
got the idea from Dadhav on youtube and the monolpole2 group.
happy spinning...:cheers:

Bhargav
10-22-2010, 06:38 PM
Patrick,
I ditched the reed switches for good ... Just playing around with the trigger wire method for now . I put together all the three circuits that Rick provided and got myself two sets of windings too ...

Just looking to generate the best torque at about 2000 rpm . I read on the monopole 3 group window motor faq where it is suggested to replace the trigger wire resistance value to 7.5 kohm as well as using 3.3 k ohm at the 470 ohm in between legs of Mjl . But i couldnt find anywhere a proper co relation between values and their effect on speed / torque . Have you tried anything yet ?

minoly
10-23-2010, 02:24 AM
Patrick,
I ditched the reed switches for good ... Just playing around with the trigger wire method for now . I put together all the three circuits that Rick provided and got myself two sets of windings too ...

Just looking to generate the best torque at about 2000 rpm . I read on the monopole 3 group window motor faq where it is suggested to replace the trigger wire resistance value to 7.5 kohm as well as using 3.3 k ohm at the 470 ohm in between legs of Mjl . But i couldnt find anywhere a proper co relation between values and their effect on speed / torque . Have you tried anything yet ?

good work :cheers:
We played around quite a bit w/ different resistances on our smaller builds. it's quite interesting when you scope it out. all 3 effect each other. we were mostly going for "self runner" low current, that kind of thing. I think you have to get into the hall switching and vary the size of the trigger magnets to increase torque. adjusting the resistors will effect torque to a point, however, you should mostly use them to get that pulse/emf/radiant (whatever you want to call it) back to the battery. they will change the speed quite a bit, however, we never measured the torque and do not think it changed much. like changing gears on a 4x4 to go faster...:sshh:

Bhargav
11-04-2010, 07:35 AM
Hello Patrick,
You were right on the 4x4 gear analogy:notworthy: !!! I got the kit running to about 3500 rpm on 1.7 amps at 48V . Put in 7.5K ohm in place of the 4.7Kohm trigger resistance. Put in 750 ohms in place of the heating 220 ohm and ofcourse tried out 3.3Kohm in place of the 470 ohm in between legs of the MJL .

3 full circuits and 6 sets of trigger windings with only 2 power coils connected .
Motor consumes 5-6 amps on startup and as it gets up to full speed it consumes 1.7 amps while delivering 0.7 amps back to charge a different battery set back .

Crazy thing is that the moment i try to load the kit , there isnt much i can get out of the system at all . I tried connecting the output with pulley and belt to a 3kw alternator i had , but the setup wouldnt move beyond 400 rpm and even if i tried to light a 100 W bulb the system rpm reduces to 300 rpm. Have you tried any load tests??? the consumption is also high as the system is really not to optimal speed .

@ren,
What sorts of load had you tested on the bigger version that you had built. Iam contemplating building another unit with NEO's but they are 13 times expensive as compared to ceramic .... Do you think it will make a marked improvement???

Thanks,
Bhargav

Mark
11-04-2010, 02:28 PM
reeds can be finicky. I think you need to have the pnp transistor trigger the mpsa06 - not replace it. That's how we do it anywho...
We've had much luck w/ halls and trigger coils:whistle:
there is so much you can do w/ the trigger coils.
the on time is only effected by how large/wide the trigger coil is not how large/wide the power coils are.

take a look at our 500 micro amp window motor on youtube. see how we have the trigger coil laid out... your mind is its own limit.
got the idea from Dadhav on youtube and the monolpole2 group.
happy spinning...:cheers:

Hi Minoly

I could not find the the video your refering to. Could you please post a link.

Thanks, Mark

minoly
11-04-2010, 08:39 PM
Hello Patrick,
You were right on the 4x4 gear analogy:notworthy: !!! I got the kit running to about 3500 rpm on 1.7 amps at 48V . Put in 7.5K ohm in place of the 4.7Kohm trigger resistance. Put in 750 ohms in place of the heating 220 ohm and ofcourse tried out 3.3Kohm in place of the 470 ohm in between legs of the MJL .

3 full circuits and 6 sets of trigger windings with only 2 power coils connected .
Motor consumes 5-6 amps on startup and as it gets up to full speed it consumes 1.7 amps while delivering 0.7 amps back to charge a different battery set back .

Crazy thing is that the moment i try to load the kit , there isnt much i can get out of the system at all . I tried connecting the output with pulley and belt to a 3kw alternator i had , but the setup wouldnt move beyond 400 rpm and even if i tried to light a 100 W bulb the system rpm reduces to 300 rpm. Have you tried any load tests??? the consumption is also high as the system is really not to optimal speed .

@ren,
What sorts of load had you tested on the bigger version that you had built. Iam contemplating building another unit with NEO's but they are 13 times expensive as compared to ceramic .... Do you think it will make a marked improvement???

Thanks,
Bhargav

Nice, party time:blowout: sounds like fun.

yeah, we never did much w/ loads before the magnet launching party:embarrassed:

are you using the full bipolar switch now or just the half?
the full bipolar should give you more torque.

are you feeding the output back to the input?
this should lower your amp draw. w/ this ckt you don't have to go to a "charging battery" you can put it directly to the input. if you're pulling more than one amp, I'd have a nice big cap in there too.

neo's will give you more torque and more "charge back" have you scoped it out to see the spike over the ac wave?

If we were looking for torque I may have already mentioned it, I saw JB's vid, he used hall's for switching and recommended larger magnets on the timing wheel for more torque. I think that vid has been pulled from the net, I couldn't find it. Not sure why, it wasn't that big a deal...who knows.
look forward to your continued progress,
Patrick

minoly
11-04-2010, 08:52 PM
Hi Minoly

I could not find the the video your refering to. Could you please post a link.

Thanks, Mark

Here's it is:
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOF5waCH4iY"
just watched it, I sound like a dumb *** sorry...
note the trigger coil is squished tight. The effect was higher, sharper voltage from the trigger coil.
Patrick

Bhargav
11-05-2010, 01:39 PM
No video is dumb .... Patrick ,maybe after the improvements you do the earlier documentation seems stupid sometimes. but for later experimenters it becomes a treasure trove . I for one bought the kit b after looking at the video you posted. Thanks again ;)

Yup you did mention the halls earlier . the deal is in the hall/reed circuit provided by Rick , he completely does away with the trigger coils and uses only the power coils . With the test i did with the reed switches , those power coils got quite hot and i quit testing . Guess i will start over with those tests again . You did mention using the halls with the trigger coils , maybe i should try that too ...

I havent used caps much at all .... You think 1000 ufd 450& shud be good ?

I ordered out the smaller 12v PMalternator ... Should take a week and with the conference coming , guess it will be Nov end before imake any progress ...

Regards,
Bhargav

minoly
11-05-2010, 03:27 PM
No video is dumb .... Patrick ,maybe after the improvements you do the earlier documentation seems stupid sometimes. but for later experimenters it becomes a treasure trove . I for one bought the kit b after looking at the video you posted. Thanks again ;)

Yup you did mention the halls earlier . the deal is in the hall/reed circuit provided by Rick , he completely does away with the trigger coils and uses only the power coils . With the test i did with the reed switches , those power coils got quite hot and i quit testing . Guess i will start over with those tests again . You did mention using the halls with the trigger coils , maybe i should try that too ...

I havent used caps much at all .... You think 1000 ufd 450& shud be good ?

I ordered out the smaller 12v PMalternator ... Should take a week and with the conference coming , guess it will be Nov end before imake any progress ...

Regards,
Bhargav


wish I knew more about caps to advise you, my best guess is we want a cap there that could handle the spike and the amps, we want it to suck in the charge. the spike in the bipolar ckt is not usually as large as the one in the SG ckt. so it would seem like 450 would be plenty, you could always add more in parallel if the 1000 ufd didn't cover it. another consideration is that you want the motor to draw off the cap as much as possible w/o having to tap the battery (proximity). I read some where that caps could be conditioned just like batteries to receive that spike. please correct if this is mis-info. sometimes we read soo much we forget where it comes from...

anyone else care to comment on any of this?

Patrick

Bhargav
11-12-2010, 08:20 PM
Hey Patrick,
You are right on capacitors taking tome to condition . I read the FEG book preparing for the convention and John says in the book that capacitors especially if large in capacity takes over a dozen hours to get conditioned , but other negative energy amplifiers like inductors,resistors get conditioned almost immediately.

Makes me wonder if we can see an amplification just by taking the negative charge from one capacitor and rapidly discharging into another( using timing circuit ) and so on into another set of capacitor and so on ... Theoritically seems OK . Comments??

Are there any other benefits to having a capacitor before the batteries ??

Iam here in Coeur D alene and the place just rocks !!! Amazing locale , great restaurants with amazing cheerful people :) Whats really funny is that i talked to a few people around here ( close by to conference location ) and most dont really know JOHN BEDINI or rennaisance chargers :confused: !!!

Cant wait for tomorrow ...

Bhargav

minoly
11-13-2010, 12:30 AM
Hi Bhargav,
exciting times! wish we could be walking those streets so we could all bump into each other.
I'm sure there are other benefits to caps, post your question on BM2 or better yet, apply to Bedini_Window_Energizer : Bedini_Window_Energizer (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Bedini_Window_Energizer)
that cap amplifier sounds almost, not quite, what Bits is doing w/ his pulseinator over on the Tesla Switch thread. my guess is you might have the opportunity to view it for yourself this weekend.
We'll just have to live vicariously through all you lucky folks :)
Patrick

Bhargav
11-13-2010, 08:41 AM
Hey Patrick,
Thanks for the link :thumbsup: but I cant even get to " Join this group " page on the Bedini _window_energizer link you provided... Seems funny coz atleast a homepage is shown on most groups .

Do let me know if there is somebody i can mail about this... (is it rick ??)

I will sure carry a notepad and see what all i can jot down for remembering . Really wish there was a video i could carry back home and keep reviewing ... There is nothing as valuable as a video to keep mulling over againg and again. There generally is so much to be discovered at various stages of experimenting.

Thanks for the video on the 3 pole kit . Sure looks promising and great to see both the batteries rise on voltage even though it some time to register .Well the charging battery rose high enough to be very convincing . You have a ten colier too, right . Hows that coming along ... I finished setting my 20 coiler ( ten normal and 10 one wire coils ) and just abt getting the system running before coming to the conference . Hope i can soak all the information in the conference .


It shud be good listening to P.lindeman on his BEMF theory. Hope to talk to him abt window motor if i get chance... BTW , not many people know abt the conference in the northwest boulevard area which is so close to the resort ... Maybe thats how things are in America , but if it was back in my town there would be lots of banners in the area and lots of promo work really ... Anyway , will write to you with all that i can understand at the conference abt the motors...

Wish i cud see you here,
Bhargav

Mark
11-13-2010, 02:05 PM
Hi Bhargav

You have the 10 coiler and the additional add on piece that comes with a rotor and 10 single wire coils? I hope you will try your setup to recharge the primary battery. Did your assembly instruction come with the information on how to keep your primary battery charged? If it didn't you need to get in touch with Rick and ask for them or ask him what specifically you need to do for it to work.

Here is a quote I copied from his ordering page:

"We now offer an additional attachment that will attach to this 10 coiler that will function like the early Bedini Energizer system replicated by Jim Watson. It will consist of a rotor with magnets, and energizer coils with frame assembly. It will allow for back charging the primary battery bank"

Mark

minoly
11-13-2010, 07:00 PM
Hey Patrick,
Thanks for the link :thumbsup: but I cant even get to " Join this group " page on the Bedini _window_energizer link you provided... Seems funny coz atleast a homepage is shown on most groups .

Do let me know if there is somebody i can mail about this... (is it rick ??)

I will sure carry a notepad and see what all i can jot down for remembering . Really wish there was a video i could carry back home and keep reviewing ... There is nothing as valuable as a video to keep mulling over againg and again. There generally is so much to be discovered at various stages of experimenting.

Thanks for the video on the 3 pole kit . Sure looks promising and great to see both the batteries rise on voltage even though it some time to register .Well the charging battery rose high enough to be very convincing . You have a ten colier too, right . Hows that coming along ... I finished setting my 20 coiler ( ten normal and 10 one wire coils ) and just abt getting the system running before coming to the conference . Hope i can soak all the information in the conference .


It shud be good listening to P.lindeman on his BEMF theory. Hope to talk to him abt window motor if i get chance... BTW , not many people know abt the conference in the northwest boulevard area which is so close to the resort ... Maybe thats how things are in America , but if it was back in my town there would be lots of banners in the area and lots of promo work really ... Anyway , will write to you with all that i can understand at the conference abt the motors...

Wish i cud see you here,
Bhargav


You can email Rick or JB…

We’re working on a 9 coiler from scratch – on again off again project.
We have 5 completed and tested so far. We’re bringing on one at a time and putting them each individually and together through their paces. Trying to make some sense of it all, make them all match/resonate with the same characteristics. It’s a long process for us. We’ll report more when we make some real progress on the monopole4 group.
As I look at the schedule, you must be building your new 3 PM kit right about now.
:cheers:
Patrick

Bhargav
11-15-2010, 08:18 PM
Hey Patrick,
I will write to about the window motor learnings i got from the convention . Big thanks to Josh , Rick for the insights.

First up the big news , Rick is developing a 100 hp window motor !!! its about 1.5 times the size of window motor kit b.... Thats it :D
Its touted to have a Neodymium magnets inside . Shaft size of about 1 inch . The motor was sealed ( encased ), so nothing on the inside was visible.

Rick showcased the window motor lawn mover ... Gee that was great fun to watch . He said the best configuration is to use a hall switch and use thick gauge wires and wrap them really thick ( 4" diameter ) . But he hadnt wrapped the coils around the motor but had placed it like above the 6 x2 face in window motor kit b . Guess you must have seen the lawnmover on the monopole2 group already ... if not i will draw a figure if you want me to .
Neodymium magnets 4 x 4 x 1 inch was used ( not 100% sure abt the size, but looked like it ) . All encased in epoxy to be a round rotor structure and not a hexagon . The coils which were wrapped inside a rectangular plastic tube was placed quite close to the round rotor.

Tips from Josh Goven ,

Parallel the 220 ohm with a high and low value .
Parallel a lot of strands into the trigger wire . He said he is using the trigger wire method but it is good to go for hall switching .
For torque , he recommended use of 220 ohm as is on the circuit and 470 ohm b/w legs of MJL .For speed the higher value variations .
But most important was to parallel high and low value on the 220 ohm resistor. Higher watt resistor can be used on them .

From what i could understand Rick said wrapping around the motor as shown in window motor kit b is not necessary but Bedini still prefers it that way . Rick said we could use 4 of such rectangular tubes( filled with multiple strand of thick gauge wires ) around the window motor . The window motor lawnmover moved quite easily with about 8 batteries on it + Rick . So , i guess the torque is there to be had .

XXXXXX

Iam going to start off with learning the hall switching and then move to thick and lots of wires for research. If there is anything more i can elaborate on , i will be extremely happy to write for you ...

Bhargav

minoly
11-16-2010, 12:58 AM
Hi Bhargav,
Did the big WM look something like this:
Free Energy Convention | Musings from a Rascal (http://sanfords.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!8112396FE236B867!1464.entry)
or this one at the bottom here:
2009 Energy Fair in Canton NY (http://rpmgt.org/2009NYfair.html)

We got our small window motor down to about 80 micro amps @12v w/ 90ohms of 26 awg, all while lighting a couple of small white 2.7v LEDs
The more ohms the slower it turns, the more efficient it is. We might have to try some 18 awg, that makes a lot of sense. Should be good torque, if you can get the same 80 ohms it should be as efficient – kinda reminds me of JB’s bowling ball build.

I use to tune an old MG for my dad when I was a kid, on the hopes that one day it might be mine. We never had any fancy carb floaty ball tuners or distributor cap light instruments. I learned how to do it all by feel, sound, smell, and sight. Playing around with the WM reminds me of that. It’s nice to have the scope to make sense of it though.

I’m w/ JB on the complete wrap, mostly to increase ohms and torque w/o stress + it has a nice symmetry to it. I don’t know how we’re going to fit 4” on there – phew! there is a guy who sells regular motor science kits here:
Simple Electric Motors (http://simplemotor.com/)
he has schematics online, you can get the feel for the hall switching w/ a simple build first, use it to light an led with the pass of a magnet, then work your way from there :-)
Look forward to hearing your progress on BM4
Patrick

Bhargav
11-16-2010, 11:31 AM
Hey Patrick,

The lawnmover had the " Bing Honkin Window Motor " . Not that pretty yet but it worked great . Rick spent a good 2 hours talking about them and how he had goofed up way back when he built the rotor ... Boy , its great to see those guys build good motors...

I dont know what the exact spec of the zener diode that needs to be used with the hall switches . have you tried any yet?? Its probably just the amperes that they can handle but thought i shud ask ...

I agree on the symmetry but the problem seems to be in putting thicker gauge wires and then putting enough wraps of them ... I think that is the primary reason the wires are being placed like coils on the casing of a normal alternator. Looks like we are going to have to rebuild the side support of the kit if we are to try out the new wire setup.

Bhargav

minoly
11-16-2010, 04:31 PM
Good morning Bhargav,
I wasn't aware that there was a way to use a zener diode in that ckt. where does it go? or are you thinking of up-ing the voltage above 24v?

the hall only needs 12v. you can limit that by only connecting it to the first 12V.
so if you have 3 12v batteries in series 36v, connect the halls power to the common negative and then to the + of the first 12v.

Think of the hall as just a catalyst, you want the "amps" that tickle the "mpsa06's" base to go through the pnp not the hall.

seriously, play around w/ a hall to light up an LED then add the pnp to light it up, then add the npn. place various resistors in there - @ the hall out put - @ the pnp's "output" anyplace you can think of to control the lights intensity. this short exercise will go a long way.
Patrick

Bhargav
11-16-2010, 06:59 PM
Dear Patrick,
Yeah , the zener diodes were supposed to protect the halls on the event of using more than 12V . So like iam doing right now , if i were to use 48V with the circuit then the halls will pop . Thanks for the tips on halls , It seems reallt wise to isolate the halls and have just a 12 V circuit on them .

The power coil was heating up with the kit back home(23 gauge) when i ran them with reed switches .So, it seems thicker gauge wire and thick wraps are a necessity with external switching . I agree on the 4" wire , i guess that's one simple reason having a window outside makes sense. On the lawnmover motor , about 20 strands of wire was initally put together as one thick multistrand wire and then the thick multistrand was wrapped around to form the 4" thick window.

Its idle talk just now ... but its gonna be super progress as soon as iam back home .

Will post progress ...

Bhargav

Bhargav
11-22-2010, 02:06 PM
Hey Patrick,
Got the motor running on one hall switch , but am getting stuck with the other hall switch . Unable to tell just now what the problem . Iam totally re assembling the system and starting from scratch with a single coil to learn the hall switching circuit . Is there any connection between pins 1,2 ( Vcc and Ground ) as shown in the left corner of schematic ?? or is it just a symbol .

So how many circuits have you connected uptil now . I presume only one circuit will be necessary for one thick winding but gets me thinking if i should use multi strands and then use the 3 circuits to go along ???

Any idea why we use insulated copper wire for motor winding ? I know its a very basic question but even after looking for a while on google , couldnt really figure out why ... The deal is that i recently got a heavy transformer installation in my factory and i have many meters of 1.25" aluminium wire . It is not coated every single strand but is plastic wrapped on the outside... Will it work ? Probably not but really curious to know why ...

Now for more interesting stuff : Iam planning to replicate the big lawnmover motor shown by Rick . I remembering REN writing somewhere that for Neodymium magnets , the rotor construction will be slightly different . DADHAV's video also has the magnets spaced slightly further out than Window motor kit B design . I dont have access to Monopole 2 group ; If you have come across anything with regard to this please let me know .

4" thick wires is looking very difficult on the window motor kit b . I think i will settle for 2" on this design . Will keep you posting about the progress...

Bhargav

Guruji
11-22-2010, 08:31 PM
Hi guys I saw Bedini running a window motor on a cap I lost the link now but does anyone have a schematic of this?
Thanks

Bit's-n-Bytes
11-23-2010, 04:19 AM
Hi guys I saw Bedini running a window motor on a cap I lost the link now but does anyone have a schematic of this?
Thanks

Here is the link,



YouTube - Window Motor Running On Capacitors


Position your halls about 120 degrees apart, and only use 3 magnets.

Jeff

Bhargav
11-23-2010, 06:39 PM
Thanks for coming by the thread as promised Bits .

Do you want to take a dig at circuit tuning question ? how to get the best torque ? Resistor values ... Etc

Can you describe the placement of neo's on the window motor ?

What is the best coil arrangement for the window motor ?

Any idea what is the best torque i can aim to generate out of window motor kit b at 48v and right tuning ?

There are a ton more questions... But these are the most important questions i would ask the pro ...

Bhargav

Bit's-n-Bytes
11-23-2010, 07:47 PM
Thanks for coming by the thread as promised Bits .

Do you want to take a dig at circuit tuning question ? how to get the best torque ? Resistor values ... Etc

Can you describe the placement of neo's on the window motor ?

What is the best coil arrangement for the window motor ?

Any idea what is the best torque i can aim to generate out of window motor kit b at 48v and right tuning ?

There are a ton more questions... But these are the most important questions i would ask the pro ...

Bhargav

Ren has done an oustanding job illustrating most of the answers to your questions here;
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Window%20Motor%20Tutorial.pdf

Jeff

ren
11-23-2010, 09:34 PM
Thanks Bits, need to do an update to that with the halls. Got some very good results once I changed to halls:thumbsup:

Bhargav
11-25-2010, 10:21 AM
Hey Ren,
YEAH ... that would be so cool !!! The circuit is heating up a lot when i try to run with halls .Busted the 470 ohm resistor on the MJL21193.
It felt so easy to stop the shaft with my hand whereas with the trigger coil methd , i had much more torque ... Just am going to test out Patrick's suggestion of learning Hall switching ... Hope things get better with that...

How about placement of Neo's around the rotor ? Did you research on that topic anytime ?? I have tried out the load on trigger coil method and was unable to get even 1 hp . Something is amiss , Rick's neodymium rotor lawnmover could move a lot of weight around :thinking: ... More to learn , more to learn

Please do a writeup with your progress when possible , would be a great to learn from your experience with that big motor you got :) :notworthy:

Bhargav

minoly
11-25-2010, 02:25 PM
Hey Ren,
YEAH ... that would be so cool !!! The circuit is heating up a lot when i try to run with halls .Busted the 470 ohm resistor on the MJL21193.
It felt so easy to stop the shaft with my hand whereas with the trigger coil methd , i had much more torque ... Just am going to test out Patrick's suggestion of learning Hall switching ... Hope things get better with that...

How about placement of Neo's around the rotor ? Did you research on that topic anytime ?? I have tried out the load on trigger coil method and was unable to get even 1 hp . Something is amiss , Rick's neodymium rotor lawnmover could move a lot of weight around :thinking: ... More to learn , more to learn

Please do a writeup with your progress when possible , would be a great to learn from your experience with that big motor you got :) :notworthy:

Bhargav

if your ckt heats, then you have something hooked up wrong. did you play w/ the halls and LEDs and pnp vs npn....?
can you light them on command w/ bright and low intensity?
if you can do all this as I noted in an earlier post, then placement of the halls in the Bedini Cole ckt should be second nature. :peaceflag:

Zooty
11-25-2010, 03:44 PM
Rick Friedrich made a nice window motor SSG style using the basic SSG circuit and wheel but with strong neodymium magnets. It charges a second battery SSG style BUT it also keeps the primary topped up without any feedback to source circuitry! Just the normal SSG circuit.

Directory:Bedini SG:Self-runner:Window - PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bedini_SG:Self-runner:Window)

minoly
11-25-2010, 04:35 PM
Rick Friedrich made a nice window motor SSG style using the basic SSG circuit and wheel but with strong neodymium magnets. It charges a second battery SSG style BUT it also keeps the primary topped up without any feedback to source circuitry! Just the normal SSG circuit.

Directory:Bedini SG:Self-runner:Window - PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bedini_SG:Self-runner:Window)

yes, that is what we were doing here
YouTube - min2oly's Channel (http://tinyurl.com/25kmfmd)
before the magnet launching party:embarrassed:

Zooty
11-25-2010, 05:49 PM
Nice setup Minoly :thumbsup: Have you tried dumping the caps to the primary? Whats the voltage and current draw on your setup?

Bhargav
12-03-2010, 02:19 AM
Yuppiers.... Thanks Patrick , Got the basics right and circuit running with a nice hall switch speed control .

Here goes my experiment result :

12V input , two hall switches , no circuit heating up if the spacing between trigger magnets is higher . The circuit will heatup if the spacing between trigger magnets is made lesser ( ie more circuit on time ).Using only one power coil of 100 turns 23 gauge . Very little torque as motor can be stopped by hand easily.

Speed is higher with wider magnet trigger spacing (less number of triggers/ per revolution ). Torque seems to increase a bit as number of trigger/rev is increased but only uptil a point (the trade off is heat in circuit ) .


For the problems :

1) I put in a single coil of 400 turns 23 gauge and the speed of motor was very low when compared to 4 individual coils of 100 turns . Looks like resisitance of coil is a major issue . If i try to add more coils in parallel , speed decreases!!! This is wierd and i cant understand how Rick had a monstrous 4" thick coil on the lawn mover . How do i put in more Coils ???

2) The motor runs best when i squeeze the thickness of power coil . Certainly looks like thickness of the power coil has an appreciable effect on speed . Again cant understand how/why rick setup a huge power coil instead of smaller power coils ...

If Ren / Bits / Patrick have been this road , do let me know a few pointers for improvement ...



Bhargav

Bhargav
12-04-2010, 06:20 AM
I guess the right questions are still the basic questions :

How does the thickness of wire and number of windings effect performance of motor? Lets assume we are running on one full bi polar circuit( hall switching ) and 12V...

My results are in the earlier post ...

Bhargav

Bhargav
12-23-2010, 11:09 AM
With no activity on the thread , i posted the question to Dadhav who has done some wonderful replications on youtube .
Here is a reply from Dadhav about the power coils :

Hello, I read the comments on the link you gave me. I can only make a few points based on my experience with airplane motors and some with the window motor. I would expect the RPM to go down as you add more turns to the coil. In an aero motor this is the way you change the KV. The lower the KV or rpm the stronger the torque. This is why an outrunner motor like on my channel can swing a large diameter propeller without a gear box. Now the most ideal thing when designing an R/C motor is to keep the resistance of the coils on the stator as low as possible. Sometimes I use many as 20 wires wound simultaneously to get as much copper on as possible. Granted, I may only use 10 turns per leg on the stator of an aero motor but the principle probably applies to the window motor as well. So I would predict the more turns you add to the window motor the lower your RPM's or KV will be. Your torque should go up respectively but you are in a toss up situation based on the resistance you add with the length of wire. So also, your efficiency will go up with as many parallel coils you can add. Note: parallel not series. If you don't bring the resistance down by using multiple strands of the power coil or a heavy wire, you will need to increase the voltage running the motor to get the results you want. I have been winding my aero motors with more turns and using 4 lithium polymer batteries instead of 3. This is giving me more power and efficiency.
If you find this to be useful, you're welcome to copy it to your forum page.
Good luck and keep me up to date with your progress.
John H


Well i have tried a lot of adaptations with the bedini-cole circuit and just cant seem to figure out how to generate torque from the Window motor kit B. Sure the motor screams itself to 3500 rpm with 48 V and almost 5 amps draw. But as soon as i load the motor with a 3KW 1500 rpm alternator , the setup just goes to about 500 rpm . Have tried to put in 3 circuits with hall output trigger in parallel - not much luck there too ... Have tried all the resistor values where the 220 ohm resistor is there with not much improvement in terms of torque ...

Iam running out of ideas for this system and find it so difficult to understand how rick had such a fat power coil do a lot of work at the convention ...

Will post if i make any further progress ...
Bhargav

Bhargav
01-07-2011, 08:09 AM
Thanks to Patrick , Ren and Dadhav ... video update on the progress i had done and written about in my earlier posts .
But havent been able to move on to make a nice useful motor like the one Rick showcased . Seems like i have hit a deadend until something else strikes me to improve the torque on the system .

Link: " YouTube - 14122010029 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFlSbh_D8SM) "

minoly
01-22-2011, 11:31 AM
Hi Bhargav,
thought of you, John Bedini just posted this:
YouTube - Bedini-Cole 1971 to 1984 built from lab notes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3QHsoyGH5I)
on the energenix chanel at youtube. thought it might have some value.
Patrick

tjnlsn255
04-06-2011, 11:45 PM
This is an awsome video......:thumbsup:

Thank you JB!

Questions.... is the power that is being feed back to the primary battery being pulsed in any way other than the on/off timing of the coils themselves?

Why two sensors and only three sensor magnets?

Looks like at least 6 window coils... are they in parallel? It looks like they are all tied together .....

What does "longer run time" mean.....;-)

I hope this video stays up for a long time.....LOL

Hopes and Dreams.....

Todd

citfta
04-07-2011, 03:22 PM
Hi Todd

The window motor in the video has 6 magnets on the rotor. They are arranged N-S-N-S-N-S. There are 3 sensor magnets so they can fire the coils every 60 degrees with the opposite polarity. One hall switch turns the coils on with one polarity and then 60 degrees later a magnet turns the other hall switch on to turn on the coils with the opposite polarity.

And yes the coils are all connected in parallel.

No the power going back to the battery is not being pulsed as far as I can tell from John's description.

Longer run time means the battery is going to last longer because it is being recharged as it is powering the motor.

I hope this helps a little.

Carroll

tjnlsn255
04-08-2011, 10:06 AM
Thank you Carroll for the explanation.

So if I am going to use the 1/2 circuit and a trigger coil, then I just need one trigger coil, right?

Hopes and dreams....

Todd

citfta
04-08-2011, 10:52 AM
Hi Todd,

Yes if you are going to use half the circuit like you would for a monopole then you only need one trigger winding. That is the way I had mine for my SSG for a while. Then I changed it to a hall effect so I could play around with the timing some and vary from the fixed timing of the trigger winding. Still experimenting with the hall setup. I am looking for the best timing and length of pulse for the best charging.

C ya, Carroll

Bhargav
04-14-2011, 06:55 AM
Hey Patrick,
Things do look interesting with the video link you had posted. I did read a bit on making magnet coils and it does seem Newman , Gray etc all used lots of turns .

I did make a thick coil with #24 wire with 20 parallel coils . Ran it with the full bipolar circuit . The torque wasnt too good in comparision to a single thick wire of 100 turns( #17 wire ) but the speed was quite up there ... Almost went 150% more than the single thick wire . Speed was close to 4200 rpm on Window motor kit B. Problem is i could get the coil to run only on one occasion after which it doesnt seem to work . It appears as though the positioning of the coil is critical . Iam going to give it a shot with a new coil as iam not happy with the winding on my first attempt.

Do you have any suggestion on alternate transistors and resistor values to let us increase the input voltage ? I hope you do follow Dadhav's youtube channel . He has a lot of interesting things going on with the window motor . Includes his work on Mg battery similar to the work you are doing ...

Have fun,
Bhargav

minoly
04-15-2011, 02:29 PM
Hi Bhargav,
How long were each of the 24 gauge wires you used? Ohms of each?
Were they the same 100 turns?
The MJL’s should be enough. Have you scoped out the coil as you change resistances?

If not, or for anyone else: Try placing a dual pot on the base / emitter of the 93 and 94 put a base resistor on each of at least 220 (so you don’t hit 0 and burn the transistors) this will allow you to change the value of each simultaneously – so when you scope it out you can see the relationship between changing the bases vs changing the mpsa06/93 resistance vs trigger resistance. All three of these need to be adjusted when tuning. Make sure you have high watt pots and resistors if you want the most amount of juice possible. You can also parallel resistors and pots to increase watt value.

I finally purchased more ceramics for our B-kit, but we’ve been very busy on other projects – only so much free time in a day.

did you catch our double short vid for recovery off a pickup coil on the B Kit.

Thanks for sharing,
:cheers:
Patrick

Bhargav
04-18-2011, 05:51 AM
Hey Patrick,
Just saw the double shorting video . Did not completely understand the significance . Could you explain a little more as to what is happening and how you plan to harvest the increase in voltage .

Shorting has become a new field of interest especially after Ismael Aviso's coil shorting energy videos ...

Will measure and put pictures regarding the 20 wire coil soon.

Thanks for your continued interest,
Bhargav

minoly
04-18-2011, 11:40 AM
Hey Patrick,
Just saw the double shorting video . Did not completely understand the significance . Could you explain a little more as to what is happening and how you plan to harvest the increase in voltage .

Shorting has become a new field of interest especially after Ismael Aviso's coil shorting energy videos ...

Will measure and put pictures regarding the 20 wire coil soon.

Thanks for your continued interest,
Bhargav

Hi Bhargav,
Thanks for noticing and asking about my convoluted video :)
I don't think I've seen any of the others you are talking about, but people have been doing this for ages, At least 120 years to my knowledge. Not the double short, however, the double short just takes it a step further. I came up w/ this while working and thinking on JB’s stuff quite some time ago. If I'm wrong - like that's ever happened :) I would love for someone to share any other work on it.

Normally one will have a generator coil and a magnet, have them pass by each other at a quick rate, then at the precise moment short the coil briefly. This causes a large increase in potential across the coil, which is sent through a rectifier and on to as little impedance as possible to soak it up. So you get the regular “electrons” and an additional surge from the magnet pass.

However, there is still a certain amount of “Lenz” happening. The double short, removes some of that “Lenz”. Only one lead is connected to the rectifier, so when the magnet passes, the coil is allowed to build up capacitance, then at the precise moment you connect the lead to the rectifier and you short the coil as well, sending a much larger surge through the rectifier w/ even less “Lenz”

Did you see happen to see Bolt’s amplified SSG short? YouTube - Pulse motor and Bolt's Amplified SSG short (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0leZLxHgST0)
You get to control the amplitude and the trigger much more precisely than w/ a reed or anything else I’ve seen. The vote is still out on which produces more energy, this or the double short. We send both of these charges to a cap, or you can light stuff or cap dump to charge batteries. An actual physical short is the only thing that might produce more energy, however, we cannot find any precise contacts that can take the pressure for very long.
:cheers:
Patrick

Zooty
04-18-2011, 11:07 PM
This may help with reducing lenz's law and also increasing usable output. It's a two stage process and it makes sense when you consider that a low impedance such as an empty cap is better for capturing this high voltage spike.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7526263/Images/2shortijgcoils.jpg

Shorting coils circuits - AlternativeWorld Energy (http://sites.google.com/site/alternativeworldenergy/shorting-coils-circuits)

minoly
04-18-2011, 11:42 PM
This may help with reducing lenz's law and also increasing usable output. It's a two stage process and it makes sense when you consider that a low impedance such as an empty cap is better for capturing this high voltage spike.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7526263/Images/2shortijgcoils.jpg

Shorting coils circuits - AlternativeWorld Energy (http://sites.google.com/site/alternativeworldenergy/shorting-coils-circuits)

yup, that's the double short we've been doing for over a year now, works like a charm especially in conjunction w/ JB's windowmotor - we put sw2 before the FWBR. when did you come up with that, maybe I just thought I thought it up :rofl:

Bolt’s amplified SSG short put's out the same and quite possibly more juice than this however. the control is better for so many reasons, and no messy switches.

we never used the AC series cap, what does that do? are you turning that into a series RLC of sorts?
:cheers:
Patrick

Zooty
04-19-2011, 09:09 AM
This is not my design, i got it from the link below the image but i did post stage one on here over a year ago before i knew about this. I thought this is what Bedini was doing in his 1984 free energy generator.

Note the AC series cap in circuit - this will make it so the rotor will not slow or brake from lenz-law lugging during the filling of DC cap, and also during the discharge of DC cap to load.
A description of the purpose and function of this AC series cap is that it works like a "high bypass filter" - letting the high frequencies to pass right through, and charge cap, while blocking-out the lower end frequencies which will work to lug primary to higher amps draw.
Values of caps and ressitive load in this circuit are only examples of a particular model - experiments to find best AC cap, DC cap, load, rpms of rotor with mangets, coil size. pulse rates etc etc etc will be needed for particular applications and power outputs vs power inputs.

Maybe we could convert Bolt's circuit to use a couple of high power fets with low on resistance as i have read this will be closer to a mechanical switch than a bipolar transistor. We could also replace the trigger coil in the collection circuit to a hall switch and place it in line with the coil to remove the need for perfectly spaced magnets.

minoly
04-19-2011, 01:55 PM
This is not my design, i got it from the link below the image but i did post stage one on here over a year ago before i knew about this. I thought this is what Bedini was doing in his 1984 free energy generator.



Maybe we could convert Bolt's circuit to use a couple of high power fets with low on resistance as i have read this will be closer to a mechanical switch than a bipolar transistor. We could also replace the trigger coil in the collection circuit to a hall switch and place it in line with the coil to remove the need for perfectly spaced magnets.

I like the High power fet idea, any suggestions on which ones to start with?
we've been using the MPSao6 to accomplish the "double short" it's beautifull:thumbsup: we are working w/ small coils and the spike is only 400 volts, this is going to get crazy when scaled up.

I like hall's, we use them on the main SSG, control is much better than coil. for this method and w/ a single small coil we've been using an aircore coil to trigger, we've also had good charging and switching w/ a 3 rod core - stacked flat for less on time. frankly the magnets better be dead on anyway or these things do not charge as well IMHO, with such a small trigger, you can mount it right on/next to the main power coil. The circuit will work w/o the EB diode, however, the trigger coil likes to have it. you can do w/o the neon, however, w/o it, do not remove the charging battery unless you like to solder and have a few transistors at the ready.
:cheers:
Patrick

Mark
04-19-2011, 03:13 PM
Hey Guys,

I've got my 3-pole kit set up as follows.

Running the motor on a single battery with the half bipolar switch directing the spike back to battery, its running on 12.23 volts, 35 ma @ around 2000rpm using 1 bifilar coil. Then I have my 2 single wire coils in series that I'm shorting out using a Bedini circuit and the other generator coil as the trigger. The spike which is run thru a FWBR to a 10uf250volt cap and back to the run battery. The cap only fills to 80-90 volts when disconnected from the battery at 1900rpm's.

In the first hour battery voltage has risen .01 of a volt. I let you know what happens after it runs a few more hours.

Mark
04-20-2011, 02:29 AM
Update:

I ran the motor for 12 hours and the small motorcycle battery I'm using for this test went from 12.23 down to 12.20. Not too bad for a 12 hour run. I will let the battery sit over night and see if it bounces back any then continue the test in the morning.

minoly
04-20-2011, 03:04 PM
Update:

I ran the motor for 12 hours and the small motorcycle battery I'm using for this test went from 12.23 down to 12.20. Not too bad for a 12 hour run. I will let the battery sit over night and see if it bounces back any then continue the test in the morning.

Excelent!

we have had a good learning experience w/ that kit here are a few vids we posted that show a couple of Bedini/Cole experiments we did.

YouTube - Micro 3GT "Farris Wheel" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMox6-EvckE)

YouTube - John Bedini Ferris Wheel - Micro 3GT self start (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw3V6kJdsRg)

YouTube - Micro 3GT Farris Wheel Cap Dump (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YerNHstR3Rg)

:cheers:
Patrick

MrPounal007
06-30-2013, 10:30 AM
Thanks Bits, need to do an update to that with the halls. Got some very good results once I changed to halls:thumbsup:

can you send me how to connect the halls?

MrPounal007
07-02-2013, 11:16 AM
Hi Todd,

Yes if you are going to use half the circuit like you would for a monopole then you only need one trigger winding. That is the way I had mine for my SSG for a while. Then I changed it to a hall effect so I could play around with the timing some and vary from the fixed timing of the trigger winding. Still experimenting with the hall setup. I am looking for the best timing and length of pulse for the best charging.

C ya, Carroll yes sir can you tell me connect the halls in the circuit?

MALEXIOU1
08-28-2014, 04:04 PM
[QUOTE=ren;54687]Full circuit here

http://rpmgt.org/SequentialBipolarCircuit.jpg

Half here http://rpmgt.org/mot.jpg

or here http://www.rexresearch.com/bedini/6392-2.gif

or here http://www.esmhome.org/library/bedini/window/bedini-window-schematics.jpg[/QUOTE

i have a window motor with 24 strands of wire and transistors and i want to use the hall effect to start the motor. i am using 10ohm base resistors . i am not familiar with the hall effect circuit for each strand i will have to use 2 transistors and 470ohm resistor. or i will only use one strand(wire) as drive coil and two transistors MJL21193 MJL21194.
Thnks

wrtner
08-29-2014, 01:53 PM
or here http://www.rexresearch.com/bedini/6392-2.gif



There needs to be no "www"here:

http://rexresearch.com/bedini/6392-2.gif

(At some point, the dons who run the Net should straighten out some of its strange anomalies)