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ren
06-12-2008, 10:09 PM
It seems the Monopole forums are now moving into discussion of the window motor, quite timely considering I am halfway through a build. I am looking forward to seeing how much torque can be extracted from this machine.

Rotor is 300mm long, magnets are the length of the rotor (2 x 6 inch magnets) and the whole thing weighs over 20 kilos. Still havent made my mind up on the wire yet. I am also trying to find out the difference between a hollow mild steel hexagon as the rotors surface or a non magnetic hexagon. I believe the non magnetic may have a higher rpm, I just wonder why the steel is specified in the Bedini/Cole notes. Perhaps Peter can offer some insight.

rickoff
06-13-2008, 03:16 PM
Good photos Ren. I like it. :thumbsup: Yes, the wire size will be an important consideration. It will take a lot of wire, so you want to get it right on the first try. Are you thinking along the lines of 1,000 turns for the window coil, or something less than that? Judging by the size of your project, it would require around 3600 to 3800 feet of wire to do 1000 wraps. That's a lot of wire!

ren
06-13-2008, 09:09 PM
Hi Rickoff, I have figured out that 1 turn will equal about 1 meter. Im thinking somewhere along the lines of 200 turns of SWG 19 (AWG 18), thats 200m or more. Probably wind it tri or quad filar with SWG 21/24 as a trigger. Maybe a big recovery coil thrown in there too. who knows.

The magnetic fields are amazing on this thing. If I give it a spin and place a magnet about 1 foot away it will wiggle back and forth as the poles alternate.

I welcome any input others have to offer.

Sephiroth
06-13-2008, 09:50 PM
Bloody hell, Ren! That thing is going to be a monster!

Looking forward to your progress! :thumbsup: Best of Luck!

rickoff
06-14-2008, 03:52 PM
Hi Ren,

I think you are going to develop some great torque with this machine, and for a mecahnical device that is a big plus. What device, or devices/ do you plan to drive with the shaft output?

Those 2" x 6" magnets are really hefty! What is the supplier and part number on those? I'd like to check the specs.

Can't wait to see more pictures as you move forward with this.

Rickoff :)

gmeat
06-14-2008, 06:53 PM
Hi Rickoff, I have figured out that 1 turn will equal about 1 meter. Im thinking somewhere along the lines of 200 turns of SWG 19 (AWG 18), thats 200m or more. Probably wind it tri or quad filar with SWG 21/24 as a trigger. Maybe a big recovery coil thrown in there too. who knows.

The magnetic fields are amazing on this thing. If I give it a spin and place a magnet about 1 foot away it will wiggle back and forth as the poles alternate.

I welcome any input others have to offer.


Hi Ren,


That's a mighty nice looking build you have going there.I hope you have great success with it:thumbsup: .


-Gary

ren
06-15-2008, 12:15 AM
Thanks Gmeat:thumbsup:

Rick, the magnets I got from here Aussie Magnets: A World of Magnets to Your Door (http://aussiemagnets.com.au) but that was only because postage was cheaper. I found another site (USA i think) where the 6 inch by 2 inc by 1 were like 5 or 6 bucks. International Postage was $300 though.:confused:

I'll get the thing running and see what I think is best matched as a load. Maybe an unconventional magneto like Hugh Piggots axial flux windmill. Pulse power out of it to match. Who knows.....

ren
07-03-2008, 02:44 AM
A little more progress made. Rebuilt the rotor, this time with precision cut hexagons. Its heaps better balanced and even:thumbsup:

rickoff
07-05-2008, 06:37 AM
Hi Ren,

It's looking good. :thumbsup: Thanks for the info on the magnets. The magnets are mounted on steel plates, right? It must be really tricky placing the magnets onto the plates so that they align exactly as you want them to. Did you use a NSNSNS placement? Are the angle irons used for supportive containment of the magnets, or for shielding purposes, or both? And what material did you use for the hexagonal end pieces this time?

It will be fun to see this in action. Keep up the good work.

Best regards, Rickoff :)

ren
07-05-2008, 08:52 AM
Hi Rickoff,

The magnets are fairly easy to align if precautions are taken. You cant go all brawn at em though, thats a challenge! They slide fairly easy against each other and on the steel plate. Thats the best way to pull em apart too. Gotta be careful when you put them on, they are brittle and will jump out of your hands onto the steel and smash if you try to place them directly on. The little pieces of angled aluminum help keep them straight. I am hoping they offer some sort of shielding or shaping benefit of the field too. The Hex shapes I got CNC'd are still plywood, but thicker and stronger, and precise. There is no wobbles and it coasts smoothly with a constant air gap. In truth it could use a little balancing though, 10 grams here and there, but the thing is so heavy it just keeps on keepin on!

The metal plates are there because the original bedini cole lab notes had mild steel specified with a hollow core. I am not sure how they will perform, but I know it should still work regardless. I dont think I will fix the magnets down till I test it all at low power. The other thing is that there is a small gap between the plates insomuch as each plate is isolated from the other. I would love to see if and how this would effect the shape of the fields. Perhaps it defeats the purpose if the steel perimeter isnt totally enclosed, I dont know, I'll find out. In that case I may be able to fill/patch it, but if I am going to go that far Ill probably skip to a non magnetic surface like aluminum. It is NSNSNS configured.

theremart
07-05-2008, 01:05 PM
Hi Rickoff,

The magnets are fairly easy to align if precautions are taken. The little pieces of angled aluminum help keep them straight. I am hoping they offer some sort of shielding or shaping benefit too. The Hex shapes I got CNC'd are still plywood, but thicker and stronger, and precise. There is no wobble and it coasts smoooooothly!

The metal plates are there because the original bedini cole lab notes had mild steel specified. I am not sure how they will perform, but I know it should still work regardless. I dont think I will fix the magnets down till I test it all at low power. The other thing is that there is a small gap between the plates insomuch as each plate is isolated from the other. I would love to see if and how this would effect the shape of the fields. It is NSNSNS configured.

I think the only thing I would change about your setup is the drag that will be caused with the gaps between each magnet. After you get this running, you might consider filling those gaps with foam or something else.... The less air friction the more rpm...

But looking great Ren! I hope this works out for ya:cheers:

ren
07-05-2008, 07:16 PM
thanks Mart, good point.

I thought of an easy way to do this, non permanent too. Strip of bicycle inner tube:thumbsup: will block all the gaps and hold my magnets in place. Ive already used a strip on my bicycle wheel, works great. And is only a mill thick or so, you still get a decent air gap. Probably stop me getting my fingers caught in it too!

ren
07-14-2008, 10:20 PM
The Lord works in mysterious ways!

I have been a little down lately due to some financial troubles, which have unfortunately put this window replication on hold. But someone is looking out for me.

I got a call from a good friend about three days ago who promptly introduced me to his boss who was a keen enthusiast in alternate energy ideas. After a little chat he offered to buy the wire for the window motor for me! Needless to say I am a little blown away by his generousity! $300 dollars later and Im off to pick up about 3 kilometers of wire tomorrow!

I cant wait to see it run. Thankyou Luke and Andrew for your contribution, it means the world to me. You guys will probably never even see this, but thanks all the same.

theremart
07-14-2008, 11:18 PM
The Lord works in mysterious ways!

I have been a little down lately due to some financial troubles, which have unfortunately put this window replication on hold. But someone is looking out for me.

I got a call from a good friend about three days ago who promptly introduced me to his boss who was a keen enthusiast in alternate energy ideas. After a little chat he offered to buy the wire for the window motor for me! Needless to say I am a little blown away by his generousity! $300 dollars later and Im off to pick up about 3 kilometers of wire tomorrow!

I cant wait to see it run. Thankyou Luke and Andrew for your contribution, it means the world to me. You guys will probably never even see this, but thanks all the same.


Nice,

Note to self, figure out how Ren is living right, and duplicate :)

Congrates, I also am looking forward to seeing what that beast can do!

:)

ren
07-14-2008, 11:43 PM
Lol @ Mart. I guess I got lucky hey;)


Small vid for you all. Just for laughs:D

YouTube - Project window and the dancing magnet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMcW8ubtXDs)

ren
07-25-2008, 01:01 AM
Well after a full three hours of winding and an arvo of soldering it is running. Its a BEAST! Theres a little rattle from one of the bearings, it isnt seated tightly, Im not sure if I can fix it, otherwise I am totally happy with the outcome.

At the moment I have it running off the full sequential bipolar switch which works really well. I have an external Cemf load as another battery that is slowly charging up. I have to make a commutator now for some other experiments, and I might also try an SSG circuit, but I will make it non permanent so I can switch between both. Ill just be doing that for fun, this bipolar circuit works a treat:cheers:

Oh.....by the way.... its septfilar (7) and I only have one power winding hooked up at the moment. Each power winding I add to the original circuit increases speed and torque. I am not sure if it is beneficial yet for each power winding to have its own bipolar circuit or if it makes no difference if they are all parallel joined at the one circuit

I cant stop the shaft with my hands on 24 volt, and the circuit is good for 50 or more.

You have to build this thing guys, it rocks!:thumbsup: Im posting a couple of vids on the tube now.

ren
07-25-2008, 01:22 AM
first vid here

YouTube - JB/RC Window motor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTavsIOTmTw)


Oh and I take back what I said before about not being able to stop it on 24 volts.

I CANT STOP IT ON 12! I can slow it down, but as it slows down it draws more amps and it gets harder and harder to stop!

patmac
07-25-2008, 01:49 AM
first vid here

YouTube - JB/RC Window motor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTavsIOTmTw)


Oh and I take back what I said before about not being able to stop it on 24 volts.

I CANT STOP IT ON 12! I can slow it down, but as it slows down it draws more amps and it gets harder and harder to stop!
Good work ren, how much amp draw?

Apparentely with this motor type attaching a generator can be cop > 1.

ren
07-25-2008, 01:57 AM
thanks Patmac.

Amp draw is totally adjustable from under 100ma to whatever you wish. On the video it was running at about 500ma. One of the resistors in the circuit can be replaced with a pot and this controls amperage quite effectively.

I reckon its Cop over 1 already.....:)

Jetijs
07-25-2008, 07:49 AM
Nice work, ren :)
I got my huge 1"x1"x4" neo magnets, they are so strong that I can't get them separated even with thick spacers between them. This will be a chalane mounting them on an iron core, I am a bit scared :eek: :D

ren
07-25-2008, 08:27 AM
lol Jet, nice!:thumbsup:

You might have to build a little jig (non magnetic of course) to slide them apart, you'll never get them apart by pulling:wall: Id suggest making a clamping device to hold your rotor too, one that isolates all the other poles so it cant spin on you while you set them. The little aluminum angles that I used on mine worked a treat, though they probably wouldnt be strong enough for Neos.

Whatever you do be careful champ.:thumbsup:

I will be posting some more vids soon, and doing some load (mechanical) tests. And if anyone is interested I might put a little tutorial/project overview together for others that may be interested in replicating.

Jetijs
07-25-2008, 09:32 AM
And if anyone is interested I might put a little tutorial/project overview together for others that may be interested in replicating.

Of course we would be interested (at least I certainly would) :thumbsup:
Keep up the great work!
:cheers:

ashtweth
07-25-2008, 09:39 AM
>tutorial/project overview together for others that may be interested in replicating.

:D :D :notworthy: :D Yes Pwwwez

ren
07-25-2008, 09:53 AM
Done gentlemen. Tute on its way.:thumbsup:

tjnlsn255
07-25-2008, 12:26 PM
I would love to see and/or read any info on Window Motor Replication!

:thumbsup:

theremart
07-25-2008, 07:03 PM
Nice work, ren :)
I got my huge 1"x1"x4" neo magnets, they are so strong that I can't get them separated even with thick spacers between them. This will be a chalane mounting them on an iron core, I am a bit scared :eek: :D

Yes be careful. I use leather gloves to work with them Fun and dangerous all the the same time. You going to make a window motor as well?

Jetijs
07-25-2008, 07:41 PM
Yes, Mart.
I am also going to build a window motor, but instead I will use strong neo magnets. This will make the motor slower but give it greater torque. I already have six 1"x1"x4" neo magnets that are magnetized through thickness. All I have to do now is make some cad drawings and send them to my machinist. There is SO much I have to do and so little time...

ren
07-25-2008, 08:24 PM
Im amazed you fit in all you do JET?:)

Incase you missed it Jet there is an awesome post on the advanced forums from Carl Hurst on the window motor, its worth a read. The Neos will provide great torque, Im looking forward to seeing it run!

ren
07-27-2008, 06:13 AM
Heres the first copy of the document. If anyone needs a different format sing out. Please let me know if it has any mistakes or you have any questions. Enjoy.:thumbsup:

ashtweth
07-27-2008, 06:25 AM
Ren you forgot to attach like i do all the time:rofl:
Wanna send it to me in an email?'(ashtweth@gmail.com)
i am half way through the complete Bedini write up too:thumbsup:

ren
07-27-2008, 06:35 AM
Lol Im a goose:cheers:

Fixed.

rickoff
07-27-2008, 08:16 AM
This was well worth waiting for, and you have done a great job, Ren. :thumbsup:

Nice build, nice pdf, and I loved the video of the window motor running, and also the "dancing magnet" one. That's a really cool effect!

From what you understand about window motors, would the non-steel rotor, fast rotation model simply not have nearly the torque of the steel rotor model that you built? And what rpm's are you actually running at now?

Have you driven anything with the shaft yet? If you were to plug an induction motor into an AC outlet, and then use the Window motor's shaft torque to turn the induction motor shaft at a higher speed than it normally operates at (using perhaps a 1:4 WM:IM drive ratio), the overdrive speed will turn the induction motor into a generator that will reduce kwh that you purchase from the electric company. And at night, when you are sound asleep and hardly using any power at all, the generator will feed that unused power to the electric grid, actually making your electric meter run backwards.

Happy motoring, Rick

ren
07-27-2008, 08:49 AM
Thanks Rickoff, I took my time but I am glad I did, made the finish much better imo.


My basic understanding is that a steel rotor will go a little slower, but have more torque DUE TO WEIGHT ALONE. I cant confirm this, this is just what I have heard. It should work better with the same weight rotor but of a non magnetic material.

I havent the equipment to measure rpm, I hope to get a tach soon. Its real fast on 36 volts though. Ill do a high speed run vid soon. I can get the amp draw down to about 100ma on 12v. On a disposable 9v battery the 1-5 ampere gauge I use barely even budges. @ 24v it can draw as little as 500ma, probably less if resistances are changed. 36 v is up around the 1 amp level. Even at minimum amp draw there is still reasonable rpm and torque.

Load wise I am still working on that. I want it to be something special, not just a PMM with cogging and friction to over come.

Stay tuned:cheers:

Stephen Brown
07-27-2008, 08:55 AM
Ren:
Great work on the window-tute.
Helped me gain a lot more insight into the Win-Motor Build.
For all of you playing with large Neos there is this guy on youtube with a bunch of great tutorials, demos and experiments with those beasts. (They really can be finger-snappin dangerous)
YouTube - SuperMagnetMan's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/SuperMagnetMan)
In good health.
Stephen

ashtweth
07-27-2008, 09:21 AM
Here you go guys, Ren has kindly let us put this up for all, now the world can See energetic forums progress and Ren's too:thumbsup:
check it out under
Panacea University (http://www.panaceauniversity.org/)

Window Motor Replication Tutorial (PDF)
Based on the ideas of John Bedini. Supplied by Ren from the Energetic Forum.
This can be used for both a motor and a generator and has the capacity as a self runner.
Panacea-BOCAF reference page.

More to come.

Sephiroth
07-27-2008, 01:57 PM
Very nice Ren :thumbsup:

Really impressive! :notworthy:

rickoff
07-29-2008, 05:14 AM
Hi Ren,

Suppose that you were to take the induction motor idea I spoke of in my prior post, and use a magnetic coupling disc on your WM shaft to drive another disc placed on the induction motor. The induction motor could be set up on a short track mechanism so that it could be easily moved into a correct position to engage the magnetic repulsion effect, utilizing the magnetic gear concept that Elias brought to our attention some time ago. There would be no friction, as there are no belts, chains, or actual gearing involved. To determine the ratio of the magnets for the WM drive disc and the IM drive disc, you will need to determine the rpm of your WM, and the normal rpm of the induction motor, and then use a ratio that would produce an overdrive of the induction motor by about 10 percent or less. A four pole induction motor rated at 1800 rpm synchronous speed will usually develop its rated hp at about 1745 rpm, which is 55 rpm less than the rating. Here's the sweet stuff: To turn the same IM into a generator of the same hp rating, you only need to increase the rpm's to about 1855! That's just 55 rpm above the synchrounous rating, and a total rpm increase of less than 7%, so should be easily obtainable. You don't need to spin it up any faster than that, and doing so would just cause the IM to heat up. You can run it continuously at 1855 rpm, as a generator, with no heat problem. And the output is so simple. You plug the motor into any receptacle in your house that has the same voltage and frequency rating, and that's it! Of course you'd leave it switched off until the WM brings it up to operating speed. The larger the IM that you can drive in this manner, the better it will be, of course. And to give you an idea of what's possible, a 5 hp induction motor will require about 1/2 hp from the WM's shaft to drive it at synchronous speed. That should give you an idea of the motor size you might be capable of spinning. You could pick up a 2 to 5 hp induction motor really cheap for the experiment (just to show yourself that this really does work) by going to a salvage yard, appliance repair shop, or electric motor repair shop, and looking for an IM that has bad start windings and/or a burned out start switch. That's usually what goes wrong with them when they end up being discarded and replaced. You only need good "run" windings and good bearings to utilize it. As long as you figure the magnetic gearing ratio properly, you will end up at the correct overdrive speed to take full advantage of the IM generator at it's rated hp, and you will sleep so soundly while knowing that your electric meter is running backwards all night. Well, then again, maybe you will wake up the first few nights and go outside with a flashlight in hand to watch the meter in fascination. Sound good to you, Ren?

I'm just throwing this out to you as an idea for putting your WM shaft's output to good use, and it is not just theory, Ren, - it really works, and is perfectly legal too. I know you already have some preconceived ideas about what you might do with the shaft power, and those may be equally as good or better. I support you 100% in whatever direction you decide to go.

Best wishes to you,

Rick :)

ren
07-29-2008, 05:59 AM
Hi Rickoff,

I have to admit I dont entirely understand the principles of the induction motor. My understanding is that the rotor has an electromagnetic field which induces/interacts with the stator. Is this the case? And if so, would power need to be supplied to energize the rotor to in turn induce current into the stator windings? Does it function similar to a car alternator?

Ive had a little setback, threw a magnet @ 36 volts. No harm done, safety precautions paid off and just need to replace the magnet. Damn this thing gets up to speed. In the mean time perhaps you can educate me as to how this induction motor could be coupled to produce useable electricity. I would most likely go with pulleys and drive belts so I can play with ratios easily etc.

ren
07-29-2008, 06:01 AM
hmmm, could you be reffering to this sort of thing? Induction Generator (http://www.qsl.net/ns8o/Induction_Generator.html)

peper10
07-29-2008, 06:11 AM
I think what Rickof want to say is,you don"t need pulleys in your setup..
Just having neodinium magnets on a wheel just beside your window motor..
And the second wheel put on an induction motor!
It's just to eliminate the need of a pulley and the friction factor...
BTW!! It's a REALY NICE MOTOR and i hope you have BIG TIME playing
with your new toy!!!:cheers: :superman: :thumbsup: :notworthy:

alain d

ren
07-29-2008, 06:29 AM
I understand the magnetic gearing concept. I just feel that it wouldnt offer as direct torque as a belt would. I could be wrong, I dont have much experience in this sort of stuff. If all the induction motor needs is rpm and it turns quite easily then perhaps a magnetic cog would work. But if it turns quite easily, I would just use a belt as this would allow for gearing and speed experiements as easily as replacing a pulley.

rickoff
07-29-2008, 09:08 AM
Yes Ren, that's what I'm talking about, although you dont need to tap into the leads in the way they suggest to run an AC circuit. Instead, simply plug the device in to a household receptacle, and provide a motor switch to turn it on after it is driven up to the proper speed to begin generating. You may also want to provide a simple circuit that will automatically switch off the generator if for some reason its driven speed falls to the point where it becomes a motor and begins using, rather than generating power. I can provide you with a schematic for accomplishing that, if you would like.

Certainly you can start with a simple belt drive and pulley system, if you already have that equipment available. If you can change rotor speeds easily by simply changing the input voltage to the WM, though, then that may be your best way to adjust the IM's driven speed, and you could utilize a direct magnetic coupling. In that mode, you could use two or three neo magnets with all norths on one disc, and all souths on the other disc, and both dics being the same diameter. The rounded type with center mounting hole (see RA22CS-P at K&J Magnetics at $2.25 a pair) K&J Magnetics - Products (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RA22CS%2DP) would be ideal for this and make mounting to the discs easy and secure. I would suggest using cutoff discs for this purpose, as they are non-magnetic, strong, and inexpensive, and are available in several different sizes at hardware stores. They already have a center arbor hole placed well, as they are designed to operate at high speeds for cutting metals. If the holes for the magnets are drilled at precisely spaced intervals so that the magnets align well on both discs, then as you slowly slide the IM into position on the track, the magnets will act beautifully to gradually give you a direct coupling effect as the IM is spun up to speed.

Off to bed now. Good night, or good morning to you.

Rick :)

peper10
07-31-2008, 09:47 PM
Do you have tested the torque of your motor yet??
How much torque it has on 12-24-36 volts??
How is the efficiency??Do you recover more than 70%????
I would like to know that because i am verry fascinated with the vid you
gave us..
I am actually stock with a magnetic motor i'm working on, and, with a desing
like your's, it seems more effective..
Anyway!!!I'm verry happy that it work's and you seem pretty happy with
your results..
CONGRADULATION!!!!:cheers: :blowout:

Alain D

ren
07-31-2008, 11:24 PM
Thanks Alain D,

I dont have any measurements yet, I dont really have alot of good equipment for them. I am hoping to aquire a laser tach and a few other handy items soon.

Rick F has announced on the monopole forums that my particular configuration isnt the ideal geometry and that the magnetic fields shouldnt overlap. He suggests that a larger diameter rotor with the magnets spaced further apart would be better. I dont know if he means better for torque or charging or both.

I am happy with my results so far, but if I build another I will try what he has suggested. I am only running one power winding at the moment, I am still waiting for the multifilar bipolar circuit specifics. Im uploading another vid to youtube at the moment with it running on 36v.

Ive had good results on the 12v platform with charging. The best so far was with three windings in three phase star configuration going to bridge/cap and straight to charging battery. Battery charges quite quickly but it does put a slight load on the primary. Despite this I have had identical batteries on back and front and the charging battery has gone up 0.50v to the run batteries loss of 0.10. The CEMF load in the schematic works too, but doesnt seem to charge as fast, although it doesnt appear to load the rotor as much. If the voltage on the front end is higher than the voltage on the back end, the charging battery will shoot up super fast, actually too fast if its a large difference like 24/12v.

The link to the next vid is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWyobLflcM

It may take a couple more hours to finish processing, I just uploaded it then. Ive got a nice little burn on my finger from grabbing that shaft too much:wall:

peper10
08-01-2008, 01:03 AM
Thank's Ren !!
Youre video was a delight for the eyes and the mind!!!
You got so much volts from the generating coil..
Do you really think that you can get better results by having a larger
diameter of your rotor??
That THING is the Gotzilla of the experiments for me.
Imagine having bigger rotor size would have more torque??????
I really appreciate you take the time to give us details!!!
:thumbsup: :cheers: :thanks: :fingerdance:

ren
08-01-2008, 09:47 AM
The voltage on the generator coil is not what it can flow constantly and may be misunderstood. I like to think of it as the potential building up. It is also tied back into the negative leg of the circuit which increases it somewhat. I will do some load tests on the generator side of things when I get around to it. It does have the potential to charge on the back end or pop forward to the primary I believe when done correctly.

As far as a wider diameter rotor goes I cant speak from experience. Maybe I will have to build one of those too.:cheers:

tjnlsn255
08-01-2008, 11:56 PM
Hi Ren,

I was thinking more on the lines of using the shaft output to drive one of these wind turbine PM rotors like Windbluepower.com has....:thumbsup:


I wonder how what would work with Rick's no friction flywheel idea... interesting......

Also Ren I just saw your video on your 4 coil SG and was wondering if you could compair the torque between that and the WM and possibly a Newman motor?

Be happy....

Todd

ren
08-05-2008, 06:54 AM
Hi,

I never built a four coil sg, the one in my videos is hall switched and is a little more like an Adams motor. Probably the only thing it has in common with the sg is a bifilar coil ( x 4). And a transistor too of course.

I think the idea of driving a conventional style generator in the conventional way kind of defeats the purpose, and will probably result in less than ideal results.

I will illustrate with a little test I did recently.

I had the motor running per spec without a CEMF load attached. On the generating side I had three windings in series to a bridge rectifier. With no load on the generating coil and driving it on 12v 500ma I saw voltages as high as 50v dc. But as soon as you try to draw off that voltage amp draw increases to 1-1.2 amps and the rotor slows down. This charges really well and rotation is sustained, though speed is reduced quite drastically. I can rotate these batteries back and forth many times if I choose. But I have gone over my C20 rating and my rotor offers little torque for input. Perhaps this would be different if the coils were separate and out of phase, perhaps not.

My understanding from studying Bedinis notes is that the generator function must be out of phase with the motor function. Study his notes from his 1984 book. Notice the comutator. 25% duty cycle motor on, 25% off 25% energizer/generator on, 25% off. I think the window is intended to function like this. It could be set up like the cap pulser is perhaps. But use a hall to fire the generator side when the motor is off. It could pulse another battery or hit the source. This is my understanding. Its application may be tricker than that, but thats the general principle I am working towards. It may not even need a cap, you could hit it with the voltage straight off the bridge much like Rick F's self runner with the big energizer coil ontop.

From what I understand the H bridge circuit isolates the power windings from the power source so that the generator function can be fully benefited from.

My 2 cents...

ren
08-05-2008, 07:05 AM
I cant really comment on the torque comparison as each build I have done has been drastically different in geometry and configuration. Of course this build has given me the most torque, but it also has 20kg of rotor, the biggest magnets and the most wire out of all my builds.
My 2 cents...

tjnlsn255
08-07-2008, 11:16 PM
Does it matter what material the window motor bearings are?

I have a 1/2 inch stainless steel shaft but I thought that I needed stainless steel bearings as well?

I wanted to build my window motor with "good" bearings instead of something I robbed from something else.... but wow the cost....

What type of bearings are used in an alternator?

All the bearings I find on the internet are very expensive.... does anyone know where I can find some bearings for my window motor that will work well and have 1/2 inch inside diameter or would it be better to get a 12mm shaft?

Thanks for any and all help....

Todd

theremart
08-07-2008, 11:34 PM
I use roller skate bearings.... cheap

Much depends on the size of your replication. But bearings are VERY important ...

Mart

rickoff
08-08-2008, 12:48 AM
Hi Todd,

Mart is right, and the roller skate bearings are built for rough use, so can handle stresses fairly well.

If you do want to go for some new bearings, check out the many 1/2" inside diameter designs on the following website. They sell good bearings at very reasonable prices:

Ball Bearings:Ceramic & Miniature Bearings: 1/2" inner diameter = 0.500 inch (http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/CTGY/1-2inch)

Check out the mounted bearings (3 types) as they greatly simplify your build, and offer excellent alignment properties.

Good luck to you on your build,

Rick :)

ren
08-08-2008, 01:01 AM
Good tips guys.

Get good sealed bearings, they are the rollerskate/board type where the ball bearings arent removeable. Helps too if the center inner circle has a lip which raises it higher than the wall of the bearing. Not essential, but when it comes time to tightening it up its handy if you dont have a spacer small enough. You can clamp as much pressure as you like against the inner ring, as long as pressure isnt applied to the surface of the bearing, causing friction.


I went to a local shop called Bolts and Bearings. There would have to be a store similar around. Asked for some high speed bearings, you can specify inner and outer dimensions if you like.

Also you can get bearings and remove their seals and get all the grease out of them and lube with sewing machine oil. I used Canola....out of the deep fryer:)

Make sure your rotor is snug and stable before you wind your coil!:thumbsup:

tjnlsn255
08-08-2008, 10:38 AM
Thanks for all the info!

My main concern was that the bearings get magnetized and thus apply lots of extra friction and take away free energy... is this not an issue, the bearings do not have to be made of non-magnetic material?

Thanks again.... off to my local industrial supply store to find some bearings.....

Be happy....

Todd

rickoff
08-10-2008, 06:52 AM
I don't think that magnetization of the bearings will cause any noticeable drag, but if you prefer to install non-magnetic material bearings then check the ceramic and stainless steel bearings at the link given in my last post. They are considerably more expensive, but still reasonable.

Best,

Rick :)

tjnlsn255
08-11-2008, 10:02 AM
Thanks Rick,

VXB has lots of great bearings!

I just found some locally at Grainger that I think will work....

Thanks for all the help and info!

Todd

ren
08-19-2008, 10:01 PM
After MANY hours of fiddling with the Beast I have learnt a few things. I originally had it wired with one wire for power and three in series for a generator coil. I tried multiple setups, cap filling, dumping straight off the bridge, return to source etc. I used a hall and a timing wheel to pulse a relay to make connections between motor pulses. If the generator coil was connected directly it would slow the rotor right down and amperage went up. But if the generator coil was only used when the motor was off the speed only dropped a little and amperage went up about 200ma (as opposed to 1 amp when directly connected.)

I had some very interesting results with back popping, which I wont go into, needless to say that this thing can run off next to nothing.


I thought it was about time for something diffferent so I stripped the generator coil and wired all 5 power windings to the circuit in parallel. WOW.

Each winding connected briefly raises amperage, a sign that more power is available, but then, due to more power, you get more accleration! So when it all settles the amp draw is the same or less if only one winding is used. It gets up to speed ALOT faster too, and best of all, it charges off the original bridge excellently!! With one power winding it would slowly creep up, now with 5 I have less amp draw and it charges great. I have been running it off 24v 500ma for 20min this morning on 7 amp hour batteries (out of C20 I know, I need bigger batteries). It is doing close to 750rpm (laser tacho says 748.2) which is quite scary with all that weight swinging around!

Run battery 24.5, charge battery 24.5, after 20min, run battery 24.3, charge battery 26.2. This is without the back popping to the front end.

Tweaking the resistance on the trigger once it is up to speed can result in an increase in speed and a loss of amp draw (about 100ma per trigger). I think Rick has a setup where he hasn a simple switch to change between low and high resistance, that would be better than the two pots I currently have now.

I can only imagine what this thing would be capable of if it was multicoil, multifilar. There is no doubt in my mind that this thing could turn a decent energizer or more off the torque. All in good time.

:cheers:

rickoff
08-20-2008, 07:13 AM
Hi Ren,

This is indeed interesting! Running this from just 100ma is super efficient. Just gets better and better! Do you have any idea of the actual torque involved? Any new pics or video?

Best regards,

Rickoff :)

ren
08-20-2008, 08:10 AM
Hi mate,

Im not sure if I confused you, I can get it to run off pretty much nothing (doesnt register on the gauge, its well below 100ma) but it doesnt have max torque at this setting. However, the best torque/speed isnt far from this. Currently the best results I have got is 36v 500-600ma @ 1100rpm and charging 36v battery bank on the back end. Something interesting to note is that if the front end is higher in voltage than the back end the charging goes through the roof. I have only tried this on 24/12v which is a big difference I know, I reckon it would be ideal for the front end to be 1 or 2v higher than the backend. Regardless, it charges good as is, with no cap or SCR, I'll try those soon.

I still cant offer any comments on actual torque figures. I havent been able to make any scientific measurements. I am happy with the circuit now, and I will just be cleaning it up a little and adding some switches etc. And maybe some extra extra safety precautions for the rotor.

I will say this. 20kg of rotor spinning over 1000rpm is kinda scary:eek: No other mechanical difficulties so far with the new strapping, but I still get scared. Just to note. The video of it running on 36v 1amp was around 750rpm. With the tweaks and extra power windings it is over 1000rpm for 5/600ma. Amp draw @ startup is over 7 amps, and it rockets back to under an amp as it speeds up.

I still have some cleaning up to do, but Id love to try the induction motor/generator connected that you suggested. What sort of motor would you suggest? Is a fan the right type of motor? Or perhaps like the motor out of a bench grinder? The rpms for this may be a little hard to match however.


I'll make a new video soon.


S

Tecstatic
08-20-2008, 05:16 PM
I will say this. 20kg of rotor spinning over 1000rpm is kinda scary:eek:
S

I have seen servo motors with the same principle build-up of the rotor.

In the servo motor the rotor "cylinder" surface had a tight pre-tensioned "coil winding" of glass fiber "wire" along the length of the cylinder, and was secured and fortified with epoxy.

If you want to be able to disassemble the rotor, you could wrap a layer of some foil and then the fiber glass wire upon it. This way it is still strong, and it is possible to dismantle the magnets for a new experiment, if desired.

Eric

patmac
08-20-2008, 08:22 PM
Hi mate,

Im not sure if I confused you, I can get it to run off pretty much nothing (doesnt register on the gauge, its well below 100ma) but it doesnt have max torque at this setting. However, the best torque/speed isnt far from this. Currently the best results I have got is 36v 500-600ma @ 1100rpm and charging 36v battery bank on the back end. Something interesting to note is that if the front end is higher in voltage than the back end the charging goes through the roof. I have only tried this on 24/12v which is a big difference I know, I reckon it would be ideal for the front end to be 1 or 2v higher than the backend. Regardless, it charges good as is, with no cap or SCR, I'll try those soon.

I still cant offer any comments on actual torque figures. I havent been able to make any scientific measurements. I am happy with the circuit now, and I will just be cleaning it up a little and adding some switches etc. And maybe some extra extra safety precautions for the rotor.

I will say this. 20kg of rotor spinning over 1000rpm is kinda scary:eek: No other mechanical difficulties so far with the new strapping, but I still get scared. Just to note. The video of it running on 36v 1amp was around 750rpm. With the tweaks and extra power windings it is over 1000rpm for 5/600ma. Amp draw @ startup is over 7 amps, and it rockets back to under an amp as it speeds up.

I still have some cleaning up to do, but Id love to try the induction motor/generator connected that you suggested. What sort of motor would you suggest? Is a fan the right type of motor? Or perhaps like the motor out of a bench grinder? The rpms for this may be a little hard to match however.


I'll make a new video soon.


S
ren

Have you schematics and plans for a G-FIELD generator or Energizer?

tjnlsn255
08-20-2008, 09:24 PM
Why not a car alternator maybe even with the permanent magnet rotor....:thumbsup: like they use for wind turbines....

or short out the rotor windings of the alternator and it is an induction motor, right?

Are you windings in parallel to each other or did you twist groups of them together before winding the coil?

Don't you have it multi-filer already?

I like this video on youtube.... lots of very interesting possibilities for combining with a window motor......I think.....

YouTube - Overunity Generator Pulse Motor type 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iAT0RQaLtk)

theDaftman has great videos.....

Are you we having fun yet......:thumbsup:

Be happy....

Todd

Hi mate,

Im not sure if I confused you, I can get it to run off pretty much nothing (doesnt register on the gauge, its well below 100ma) but it doesnt have max torque at this setting. However, the best torque/speed isnt far from this. Currently the best results I have got is 36v 500-600ma @ 1100rpm and charging 36v battery bank on the back end. Something interesting to note is that if the front end is higher in voltage than the back end the charging goes through the roof. I have only tried this on 24/12v which is a big difference I know, I reckon it would be ideal for the front end to be 1 or 2v higher than the backend. Regardless, it charges good as is, with no cap or SCR, I'll try those soon.

I still cant offer any comments on actual torque figures. I havent been able to make any scientific measurements. I am happy with the circuit now, and I will just be cleaning it up a little and adding some switches etc. And maybe some extra extra safety precautions for the rotor.

I will say this. 20kg of rotor spinning over 1000rpm is kinda scary:eek: No other mechanical difficulties so far with the new strapping, but I still get scared. Just to note. The video of it running on 36v 1amp was around 750rpm. With the tweaks and extra power windings it is over 1000rpm for 5/600ma. Amp draw @ startup is over 7 amps, and it rockets back to under an amp as it speeds up.

I still have some cleaning up to do, but Id love to try the induction motor/generator connected that you suggested. What sort of motor would you suggest? Is a fan the right type of motor? Or perhaps like the motor out of a bench grinder? The rpms for this may be a little hard to match however.


I'll make a new video soon.


S

ren
08-20-2008, 10:17 PM
Hi guys, thanks for the replies.

In regards to safety, I am confident that it can handle the speeds it is going. I thought of fibreglass wrapping, I used to do a bit of glassing, But the tape I have used and the glue should hold well. It scares me because I originally threw a magnet when there was no tape and nearly wrecked the whole thing before I even really got to play with it!:rofl:

I guess its just the time and $$$$ spent.....anyways, shes pretty sturdy now, up to 36v. Im not sure on anything past that yet, I dont have enough batteries.


I dont have any plans for a G-Field or Energizer, I have some ideas though. I will try anything I can get my hands on, though car alternator will probably be no good unless geared correctly. They start working @ about 3k I think. Ive stuck to Bedinis principles so far and they've paid off so I think eventually I will build an energizer for it of some sort. Who knows.

All windings are wound together, there is no twisting (except for the last 10cm). They are all parallel wired to the collectors now, so five power windings.:cheers:

rickoff
08-20-2008, 11:01 PM
Hi Ren,

An induction motor is quickly recognized for the fact that it does not have a commutator or brushes. Induction motors are pretty much the standard for industrial electric motors, and also for major household appliances that use motors (washers, dryers, dishwashers, etc.). Fans, as you suggested, are often built with induction motors. Most all IM's have a label tag that states the AC voltage, the horsepower, and the rated rpm's. Take a look at my pevious post concerning rpm's, and look for a motor with the lower rpm rating, as it will be easier to drive to speed of course.

Rick :)

ren
08-21-2008, 12:25 AM
:thumbsup:

Thanks mate I'll do some browsing. This fan I have here has 230/40 volts AC only, 75 watt, but doesnt state rpm.

Tecstatic
08-21-2008, 03:51 AM
The induction motors commonly are either 1800 or 3600 rpm "synchronous" speed.

To make the induction motor act as a generator you need slip, the more slip the more power until it "stalls", so you have to rotate at 1800+ rpm.

Have you calculated the circumference speed of the rotor and considered what happens if you get hit in the head by a magnet ?

Maybe it is best to calculate the stress of your tape, and what it can stand. Especially if you want to run 1800+ rpm. Double speed, 4 times the stress on the tape. Better safe than sorry...

If the motor looses a magnet at that speed, the imbalance will make it jump around, and maybe even break apart.

I have not the exact measures of the rotor, and this is just an approximate calculation assuming the rotor diameter is 20 cm:

omega = 2*pi*f = 2*3.14*1800/60 = 184,2 rad/s
v = omega * r = 184.2 * 0.1 = 18,42 m/s
a = omega2 * r = (184.2)2 * 0.1 = 3393 m/s2, approx. 339 G's

By applying the weight of the magnets and using the force parallelogram, you get the tape tension.

Eric

ren
08-21-2008, 05:24 AM
Hi Eric.

Your points on safety are noted. I have already had a magnet come loose at 800rpm, that was without proper strapping.

Perhaps I will make extra certain and wrap with fibreglass as well. I dont go blasting it at 36 volts all day long, I would have done it maybe three times, to see if everything held.

ren
08-21-2008, 09:10 PM
some pics with the strapping removed, preparing for fiberglass.

gmeat
08-22-2008, 12:19 AM
some pics with the strapping removed, preparing for fiberglass.


Hi Ren,


I see you have some Caps in those photos.How are you utilizing them and what size are they?.Also,are those neos or not.Thx for the input :thumbsup: .


-Gary

ren
08-22-2008, 02:22 AM
Hi Gary, the two on the front end are 40v 10000uF caps paralleled for 20000uF. They are over the front ends terminals. The back end is the 10uF 250v cap, which is marked on the schematic as External Cemf load I think. You could have different variations on the back to this if you like.

gmeat
08-22-2008, 02:33 AM
Hi Gary, the two on the front end are 40v 10000uF caps paralleled for 20000uF. They are over the front ends terminals. The back end is the 10uF 250v cap, which is marked on the schematic as External Cemf load I think. You could have different variations on the back to this if you like.



Ren,


How much of a difference are you seeing with the caps on the front end with regard to amp draw?.Also,on a side note,I'm a little confused about the SCR you used in a different thread where you were back-popping a battery.Was that a silicon controlled rectifier or a thyristor.A part # would would help me to better understand.Thx for the input


-Gary

ren
08-22-2008, 06:54 AM
The caps on the front will vary. When I was experimenting with pulsing out of phase I saw the same voltage in the caps that was in the battery at some stages/setups. Mostly it is .05-.10 below voltage source.

The back end will stay at the level of the charging source, unless, some form of capacitive discharge system is employed. For now I have it set up straight off the bridge, with no capacitive discharge employed.

I havent used any thyristors so the part you are reffering to is a SCR. I picked a high voltage high amperage one (800v 16A) but I have used medium sized ones as well. The large one is TYN816, but almost any one should work. Perhaps if you have a choice a fast switching one could be a good idea. I have used 400v 2 amp ones as well on smaller setups. Have a look at one of the recent threads by user Vortex regarding his fan kit, there is another scr part number in there.

Oh yeah Gary, these are ceramic, 6 inch by 2 inch by 1 inch x 2 [==][==]

ren
08-24-2008, 11:34 PM
Speed test vid. All five power coils makes a big difference, in startup, top speed, charging and torque. Best to date, 1300rpm @48v 500ma (24 watts).

YouTube - RPM test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE6Ow2-9DtY)

gmeat
08-24-2008, 11:58 PM
Speed test vid. All five power coils makes a big difference, in startup, top speed, charging and torque. Best to date, 1300rpm @48v 500ma (24 watts).

YouTube - RPM test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE6Ow2-9DtY)



Hi Ren,


Great work mate.I enjoy watching your vids.Just love the that amp draw drops down coming up to speed.Continued success


-Gary

ren
08-25-2008, 12:08 AM
thanks mate:thumbsup:

ren
08-28-2008, 07:20 AM
man what a difference 5 or 10 grams makes:thumbsup:

I went to a wheel balancing place today and got some lead weights they were throwing out. glued them on and now no viabrations @ high speed.

rickoff
08-30-2008, 09:48 PM
Hi Ren,

It's looking good! And yes, balance is definitiely the most important factor in a rotational device. One can spend a lot of money on shafting and bearings, but it is all for naught if balance is not obtained. If anyone doesn't understand that, just think for a moment about a clothes washing machine - something we can all relate to. If the clothes are not distributed evenly during the spin cycle, the machine will spin slowly with much vibration and noise. By balancing the load properly, you obtain the fastest rotational spin, least amount of noise, and greatest possible reduction in vibration. It all adds up to improved performance and extended machine life.

Looking forward to your next video, Ren.

Best regards,

Rick :)

ren
09-02-2008, 10:28 AM
Thanks Rick,

Over 1400rpm today. Seems pretty solid. Dont think anything is coming off. Fibreglass wrapped around the centre and ends and Heaps of epoxy and gaffa tape. If I ever build another one I am just gonna embedd the things in resin to start with.

rickoff
09-05-2008, 12:12 AM
Hi Ren,

Have you given any more consideration to the induction motor/generator idea? Here's a suggestion for you:

As I pointed out in an earlier post, you would need to drive the induction motor to around 1855 rpm to derive full benefit from it as a generator. That might prove difficult or unsafe with your current setup in a direct drive mode, but I think you could easily achieve this with 1:2 drive ratio, operating the window motor at something between 925 and 930 rpm's. I imagine that you do have enough torque to handle the load at that speed. You might try it with a drive belt and pulleys first, and switch to a magnetic gear later. If you use a clutching pulley on the WM drive shaft, that would allow the WM to build speed before the drive belt engages.

Best wishes,

Rick :)

ashtweth
09-05-2008, 12:46 AM
You know would be 100 efficient, if you could manage to work out the DRAG equation.

Ren having a Permanent magnet rotor, working like an induction motor, and using a Frequency drive to get it up to speed, should be almost 100% conversion.(no slip) Off topic but had to put it in there:)

ren
09-05-2008, 12:58 AM
Great ideas guys.

I have though a little more on the induction motor idea Rickoff. As you say, getting it up to speed is going to be the biggest hurdle. I just cant seem to go past the axial flux generator though, No iron cores so the only drag is going to be coil saturation, depending on current flow. And it makes its best power @ low rpm, like 400-500. It is fairly close to some of the Gfield designs too, so its on the right track. I can gear it the other way then, have the window motor producing high rpm with a small pulley and the AF generator driven at lower speeds. I hit 1400rpm the other day @ 48v 500ma so the pulley ratio could be 3 to 1.

Ive been tinkering with the oscillating light at the moment, but the generator is still in the works. I just dont have the $$$$ otherwise Id get stuck into it today!

Ash I have thought of using a monopole/superpole design on the back end that could be pulsed until it gets up to speed. So many options, so little moolah!

Ren

ren
02-21-2009, 02:01 AM
New rotor being built as of yesterday. Rotor is polyethylene machined block, and magnets will be recessed in and bound by a 2mm layer of polyethylene strip/retainer. Been along time in the redesigning stage, but its finally starting to come back together.

Pics coming soon.

gmeat
02-23-2009, 01:16 AM
New rotor being built as of yesterday. Rotor is polyethylene machined block, and magnets will be recessed in and bound by a 2mm layer of polyethylene strip/retainer. Been along time in the redesigning stage, but its finally starting to come back together.

Pics coming soon.


Hi Ren,


Wow,Another window motor build.Will it be as big as the last one?.Anyways,Good luck with the new build and I for one cant wait to see it.:thumbsup: :peaceflag:


-Gary

ren
02-23-2009, 01:34 AM
Its a redesign of the last one. Bent the shaft so I dismantled it for re-construction. Been taking my time, trying to make sure it wont happen again.

Saved everything from the last build except the acrylic. So not a total loss really:thumbsup:

ren
03-20-2009, 09:27 PM
Rotor @ machine shop.

Jetijs
03-20-2009, 09:41 PM
This looks scary :D
Nice idea about holding the magnets in place :thumbsup:
Great job!
Thanks.

ren
03-20-2009, 09:54 PM
Thanks Jet, I call him Lord Vader, cause they ran out of white.:D

Strip is plastic welded in place. Still needs plates welded to the sides and a few finishing touches.

theremart
03-21-2009, 05:28 PM
Thanks Jet, I call him Lord Vader, cause they ran out of white.:D

Strip is plastic welded in place. Still needs plates welded to the sides and a few finishing touches.

I am very curious what you will use for bearings. Should be easier to deal with a smaller wheel than you were working with before. But as you know balance is sooooooo important.

I am wondering will you go up to 24V to run this baby?

I just got done watching a video about Floyd Sweet, made me wonder if Bedini tunes his magnets to get the most out of them...... Was thinking about going to a junk yard and seeing if they would switch on their huge electro magnets to charge my ceramics to see if it would make a difference......

Hope the best with you, even though you are using the dark side of the force weapons :rofl: :cheers:

ren
03-21-2009, 06:20 PM
Hey Mart.

I am using a standard wheel bearing, similar to one that may be found on a trailer or car wheel. It is 35mm internal diameter and I have removed the seals and grease. Looks somewhat like this.

http://www.drives.co.uk/images/news/SKF%20energy-efficient%20bearing.jpg

Lubricate with sewing machine oil, or Excel Plus (typo? Rick F uses it and includes it in his kits). My bearings went from a 1/2 second free wheel to over 10 seconds with this, just holding it in my hands.

There is nothing small about this rotor Mart;) . It may be half the length of my previous one, but its double the diameter, easily. Not to mentioned machined, balancing shouldnt be much of a problem with the right tools used in the first place. And yes, 24v will be an option here.


Regards

ren
03-25-2009, 11:23 PM
Finished rotor:thumbsup:

theremart
03-26-2009, 12:16 PM
Finished rotor:thumbsup:

Now remember...

When you run this please stand by the off switch....

Remember Telsa's earthquake machine, this maybe similar

ROFL :)

ren
03-26-2009, 01:04 PM
lol mart.

Theres no free floating piston here. But yes, I will be standing some distance from it when it is first fired. Perhaps I can bluetooth the pots or something, control it wirelessly from across the room...no, make that paddock.:rolleyes:

In all seriousness, Old Mate has done a pretty good job on this rotor. It looks well balanced and sturdy.

Regards

ashtweth
03-27-2009, 04:53 AM
Wholly crap Ren nice work M8!! :suprise:

ren
03-29-2009, 09:10 AM
I can take no credit for it, except for the conceptual drawings:thumbsup:

All praise is directed to the machinist for his time and effort/skill.

tjnlsn255
04-08-2009, 08:57 PM
Can I use my all North facing SSG rotor on a window motor coil configuration?

I have a six pole all north SSG rotor that I would like to use on a window motor coil configuration, what is the disadvantage of this over N, S, N, S, N, S?

Thank you for any and all help:thumbsup:

Tj

ren
04-08-2009, 09:07 PM
You can use all norths, you may as well omit half the circuit as it is only concerned with souths. You could still use cores if your magnets arent too strong, and if it was a traditional SG to begin with this is probably the case.

Build the half circuit and see how you go with one of your coils.

tjnlsn255
04-08-2009, 09:25 PM
Thanks Ren,

Is there a fast link to the 1/2 circuit in the forum that you can give me?

Have a most excellent day....

Tj

ren
04-09-2009, 10:17 AM
Im not sure TJ.

There is one here.

http://www.fight-4-truth.com/N-Pole%20motor%2084.jpg

You can use 2n3055/mj2955 as the complimentary pair, or mjl21193/4. MpsA06 as the signal/darlington works great.

tjnlsn255
04-09-2009, 11:24 AM
Thanks Ren,

I think I also found one at John Bedini's web site....

MOTOR DIAGRAMS AND LAB NOTES (http://www.icehouse.net/john1/motor.html)

Thanks so much for all the help.....:thumbsup:

Tj

tjnlsn255
04-09-2009, 12:45 PM
Does anyone have a description of how the 1/2 circuit works compared to the SSG circuit?

What is the advantage of the NPN/PNP transistor combination on the ends of the drive coil?

What improvements does this give over the SSG circuit?

Thanks for any and all help.....

Tj

ren
04-09-2009, 09:02 PM
Thanks Ren,

I think I also found one at John Bedini's web site....

MOTOR DIAGRAMS AND LAB NOTES (http://www.icehouse.net/john1/motor.html)

Thanks so much for all the help.....:thumbsup:

Tj

There you go, thats a great page. There is a half circuit drawn really neat there. You should use the basic resistor values to get it going, then use pots to tune it. Its a different animal to the SG, it will take some experimenting to get a feel for it.

tjnlsn255
04-09-2009, 09:24 PM
Thanks Ren,

But what does the NPN/PNP 1/2 circuit do more of or differently than the SSG circuit?

What is the advantage of this circuit over SSG?

Thank you for any and all help....:thumbsup:

Tj

ren
04-09-2009, 11:03 PM
I see it as having the drive coil disconnected entirely from the battery inbetween motor pulses, making it a good candidate for recovery to source. It also draws the least amount of input current at its top speed, but if you want it to produce High voltage I think you may need to alter the timing somewhat.

There are others as well, but those are the main ones I found.

tjnlsn255
04-10-2009, 11:29 AM
Thanks Ren,

I see it only has one battery, so when the CEMF switch is closed this circuit charges its own primary battery? So this is a self running curcuit?

Is the CEMF switch a relay or reed switch or is it just a toggle switch that I can choose to turn it on or not?

What is the purpose of the Fast Start Switch?

Can a capacitor be put in parallel with the battery?

Thanks so much for all the help!

Tj

ren
04-10-2009, 11:07 PM
Tj, I cant tell you either way about self running. Yes the CEMF can be stored in a cap and dumped back into the primary. It would probably be a good idea to have a large uF cap over the primaries terminals for this. You might even find that closing S1 at the right time without a cap can give results too. You are going to have to experiment with the CEMF switch. It would probably be best to use a commutator there.

Fast start will make sense when you build it. Once it is up to speed you can tweak that resistance up to 10k and the thing will still run, but its harder to start at a high resistance.

tjnlsn255
04-10-2009, 11:56 PM
Thank you Ren for all your insights and help...:thumbsup:

I am still working on my rotor and the frame to hold the window coils but it is getting closer every day.....

I am really enjoying this... with the 1/2 circuit this is a good progression for me from my SSG.... and I am hoping to some how combine both.....

Have a most excellent evening.....

Tj

ren
04-11-2009, 08:19 AM
you can use the SG circuit to test it and get it running, at least on 3 of the poles anyway. To switch on the souths you would need a different circuit, or perhaps center tapped coils with an SG circuit on each leg.

I think there is room for a bit of power in it, I am leaning towards a mosfet circuit for it too. Plenty of playing around ahead.

tjnlsn255
04-12-2009, 11:44 AM
Hi Ren,

This adventure is one of the few great spices of life.....:thumbsup:

Are we having fun yet..... H*LL YES!

Be happy.....

Tj

tjnlsn255
04-12-2009, 07:00 PM
I have a ceramic magnet that is 3" x 2" x 1" and I want to temperarily secure it to my rotor while I check my rotor for balance and for N,N,N,N,N,N versus
N,S,N,S,N,S orientation before I resin the whole thing together.

I was thinking about using a thin aluminum 1/2" wide strip to hold the magnets in place.

Will the aluminum strip disturb the magnetic field across the 3" x 2" face of the magnet so much that testing will be affected?

I also thought of using large very strong tie-wrap but they are thick and will increase the air gap between the surface of the magnet and the coil....

The magnets are mounted inside a channel in a 3" plastic rotor.

My other thought was to use side plates holding the sides only of the magnets but I am not sure how fast my motor will spin yet and do not want the magnets flying off the rotor.....:suprise:

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.....

Tj

ren
04-12-2009, 11:10 PM
Hi Tj,

This is what concerned me the most when I was construction my first model. If one wants a safe rotor then affixing the magnets securely should be paramount. I used a little aluminum angle piece screwed down on either side of my magnets on the first build which can be seen on some of my videos/pictures. It worked ok, stopped the magnets from slipping from side to side.

I have a generator here that I am pulling apart and it has two HUGE ring magnets attached to steel, and they are held on by a aluminum shield which covers the entire face. I think it should still work if you want to try a aluminum retainer. Something else that was suggested to me was nylon, or a seatbelt type material. The only dilemma would be fixing it, but it would surely be up to the task of retaining any magnet up to the weight of a human being:D in a head on collision.:rolleyes:

I had my latest rotor plastic welded which may also be an option if you have a plastic rotor.

Regards

tjnlsn255
04-12-2009, 11:58 PM
Thanks Ren,

I think I will try the tie-wraps as they are ready to go and no fabrication is needed.... the holes that I drill for the tie-wraps can be used for the aluminum straps if I decide to go that way later......

The seat belt webbing is an interesting idea also... I wonder how thick it is....
I have a couple old Jeep back seat belts.... very interesting.....:thumbsup:

Hopefully I will figure out which configuration I like the best and then I can resin and fiberglass the whole thing when I have decided on my configuration.

I got my first set of magnets mounted tonight and hopefully I will have them all mounted and spin the rotor in the next day or two....

I will take a couple pictures to post when I have given it a test spin...

My mechanic at my local auto garage has a huge belt driven drill press and said he would help me balance it if it vibrates to much..... he is mildly curious about what I am doing.....:rofl:

Have a most excellent evening.....

Tj

ren
04-13-2009, 06:22 AM
Tie wraps are a start. Dont be pushing higher voltages through it unless you have the utmost confidence. Seat belt material is generally fairly thin, thinner than most cable ties anyway. And it is alot wider too. Like I mentioned though, the trick will be fixing it to the rotor, or getting it sewn in a continous loop etc.

Balancing will help significantly so will good bearings and a straight rotor to begin with! Ive spent probably 3 months at least rebuilding this one. I dont want anything McGyvered on it. A little outside help from the people with the right tools will go along way too. Getting them interested is good too.

Mark
04-13-2009, 01:37 PM
Hi Ren

How much longer till you get Vader going. Can't wait to see it in operation. I should have my new window motor going soon just waiting on a couple transistors for the south pole side of my sequential bipolar circuit. Runs pretty well on a simple circuit. 4300 rpm at .5 amps 12 volts.

tjnlsn255
04-13-2009, 03:08 PM
Hi Mark,

Just curious, what is the size of your magnets, how many poles, and what is the gauge of your window coil and how many turns/wraps on your coil/s?

Are you planning to use your window motor to drive anything mechanically?

Have a most excellent day...

Tj

ren
04-13-2009, 09:33 PM
Hi Ren

How much longer till you get Vader going. Can't wait to see it in operation. I should have my new window motor going soon just waiting on a couple transistors for the south pole side of my sequential bipolar circuit. Runs pretty well on a simple circuit. 4300 rpm at .5 amps 12 volts.



Hi Mark,

Is that Ricks window motor kit? Sounds good. I am still waiting on parts being machined for mine, It could be months before it is up and running at the moment. I'll post an update here when things move along.

Regards

Mark
04-14-2009, 12:31 PM
Hi Ren

Yes its Ricks window motor. Finally got the rest of the circuit yesterday. Had a hard time getting it going though. Had to run it off the half circuit first to find why it wouldn't run. Discovered a missing connection on the full circuit diagram. On the full circuit it doesn't show the diode going from emmiter to base on the MPSA06. It looks like the diode goes from the base of the MJL21194 directly to the base of the MPSA06. Needs to have a little dot on the diagram showing the base of the MJL21194 connects to the emmiter of the MPSA06 and then a diode goes up to the base of the MPSA06. Anyways finally got it going on the full circuit. This one is going to be a bear to tune. Many variables, not really sure wear I want to start. 1 battery or 2. There are at least 4 spots if not 6 for pots. How much voltage to use. Do I get a flywheel, commutator or what. I'd like to use one battery and try to back pop it with a cap. I might try to use a transistor and an air core trigger but not sure yet, still playing and thinking.

Mark
04-14-2009, 12:35 PM
Hi TJ

Check out Ricks web site first it will answere a lot of your questions.
Truth In Heart CREDIT CARD ORDERING CENTER (http://rpmgt.org/order.html#SSGkit)

tjnlsn255
05-01-2009, 03:50 PM
Hi Mark,

The link to Rick's web site does not work?

I am looking at the full circuit and it has two Hall triggers... Why two triggers?

Is one for South and one for North?

Can I use a tri-filar with two triggers windings?

What is required to get a trigger winding circuit to trigger on a South magnet? Do I just reverse the trigger winding start/finish from the opposite side?

Can I use to seperate 1/2 circuits one for the North side and one for the South side with seperate triggers and will the 1/2 circuit trigger on a South magnet or do I need to change something?

On the 1/2 circuit schematic is says the battery can be 6 to 18 volts.... can it be higher... say 24 volts?

What happens if you leave the CEMF switch on all the time and send the output of the bridge back to the battery of the 1/2 circuit?

Thanks for any and all help......:thumbsup:

Tj

Mark
05-01-2009, 05:52 PM
Hi TJ

Your right for some reason Ricks sight is down right now I'm sure it will be back up soon.

Yes 2 triggers one for north and one for south.

Yes you can use a trifilar on the full circuit 2 triggers and 1 for power.

Just reverse the start and end wires on one trigger for the south trigger.

If you use 2 half circuits you need 2 bifilar coils and on the south pole coil switch both ends or just turn the coil upside down.

I havent tried the the bipolar set up with more than 12 volts yet. More than 18 volts may damage the mpsa06 but I'm not sure.
On the full circuit running the CEMF back to primary drops the input a little on a meter but supposedly the meter doesn't tell the whole story. I haven't run enough testing on that to really now how much effect it really has and haven't tried it on the half circuit.

Let me know what you find, ok. :cheers:

tjnlsn255
05-01-2009, 09:18 PM
Thanks Mark!

Ok I have my window motor all put together and tried it out on my Bedini SG circuit but the coil windings just hum and the rotor does not maintain a spin.... I tried swapping the start and end of the windings for both the trigger and the power coil but it just hums either way.....

I have a 12" diameter 6 pole rotor.... each pole is a 3 x 2 x 1 ceramic magnet with the 3" length facing the window windings.... I unwound one of my SG bifilar coils for the window windings so maybe it is not enough windings to drive the rotor.... do have an additional 6 magnets that I can add.... should I stack them on top of the 6 I already have mounted or expand my rotor so that I end up with 6 x 2 x 1 facing the windings.....

Currently I have the magnets set up as N, S, N, S, N, S but I tried it as all Ns also and it still just hums as the magnets pass the windings.... but it does not keep going.....

Can I add more 20 guage windings to my existing 20 guage windings? Do I solder the new wire to the end of my existing power winding or join them together at a terminal block or do I need unwind the whole thing to get a longer power winding?

When I spin the rotor the humming sound occurs as the magnets pass the windings.....

Also I have a 1/4" air gap between my windings and the magnets.... that is probably to much, right?

My windings are 22 and 20 guage wire about 4 ' around each 150 turns total....

I guess maybe I just need to build the 1/2 circuit and see if that works.....

Thanks for any and all help.....

Tj

ren
05-01-2009, 09:27 PM
Ive run 48v with the mps and mjl's. Theres a couple of vids on youtube of the old rotor on 36v. Testing on the 48v terminated early due to rotor instability. The Mps is rated @ 80v I believe, it should handle 50v easily. Be careful at higher voltages. You need larger resistors and such too.

tjnlsn255
05-01-2009, 11:34 PM
Thanks Ren,

Any thoughts on my other questions?

Have a most excellent weekend....

Tj

ren
05-02-2009, 12:06 AM
Your trigger resistance is probably to high. Thats what it sounds like to me.

tjnlsn255
05-02-2009, 08:49 PM
Hi Ren,

With my SG circuit I can adjust the trigger with the 1k pot and I have gone from 0 ohms on the pot so that is 100 ohms fixed to 1k = 100 ohms fixed and it just changes the pitch of the hum as the magnets pass the coil.....

For my SG with my SG bifilar coil I run the 1k pot around 200 ohms .....

Thanks for any and all thoughts.....

Tj

Mark
05-02-2009, 11:56 PM
Hi TJ

I agree with Ren. Get out an ohm meter and actual check the resistance again from the end of the resistor to the end of the pot and make sure it is only 100 ohms. The only time I've had a coil oscillate is when the trigger resistance was too high. Is there output when the coil hums and the rotors not turning? If there is, its oscillating, too much trigger resistance.

ren
05-03-2009, 01:20 AM
and you can burn out your pot too...

tjnlsn255
05-03-2009, 12:19 PM
Excellent.... got it working.... it was not the trigger resistance at all....

I had left my Bedini SG coil in position and even though I had disconnected it ... it was dragging the rotor as the magnets passed by..... I was going to use it as a generator coil so maybe when I get the 1/2 circuit built and use 24 volts it will not slow down the rotor.....

The window coil really does spin my heavy 12" rotor very nicely.....

Finally I am windowing......:thumbsup:

Thanks for all the help and ideas!


Tj

Mark
05-03-2009, 01:25 PM
Glad you figured it out TJ. If you lower the value of your base resistor to somewhere between 10 to 50 ohms it should give you more power when first starting. That way you may be able to leave your power coil near the wheel. Just a thought.

tjnlsn255
05-03-2009, 02:41 PM
Hi Mark,

Because of the fixed 100 ohm resistor and the 16 ohms of the trigger coil the lowest I can go with my Bedini SG circuit is 116 ohms with the 1k pot turned all the way down.....

Its ok because I am going to build the 1/2 circuit now....

Do you know if I can use a larger transistor than 2n3904 for the trigger transistor in the 1/2 circuit?

I have a bunch of TIP120s and 2n3055s but no small signal transistors....

My Bedini SG circuit uses a 2n3055 on the trigger....

Can I trigger a 2n3055 with another 2n3055.... just a thought....

Be happy...

Tj

Mark
05-03-2009, 04:01 PM
TJ

Not sure on the other transistors.

As far as your trigger just remove the 100ohm resistor and replace it with a 10-50 ohm resistor.

You can use the 3055's in your circuit but you'll need a 2n2955 I believe. Look at Ricks sight again he has 2 different schematics one using the 3055's and one with MJL21944's (?).

tjnlsn255
05-03-2009, 04:26 PM
Thanks Mark!

I have the matching PNP 2n2955s... thanks....

I will look on Rick's site for the schematic ....thanks....

Tj

ren
05-03-2009, 09:34 PM
You need a matching pair of transistors for the Power coil. PNP and NPN.

You can use 2n3055 and a Mj2955 or Mjl21193 and 94. Or any other pair you can find, they are commonly referred to as "complimentary".

For the trigger transistor you need something small. The MPSa06 works great, Id imagine there are plenty of others that can be used for this darlinton. Perhaps the 2n2222 or 2n3440 or something similar.

Regards

tjnlsn255
05-03-2009, 09:51 PM
Thank you for the suggestions Ren!

Hopefully I will have pictures soon.....

Is free energy green....;-)

Tj

tjnlsn255
05-11-2009, 10:41 PM
This is a couple of pictures of my Bedini platform in window motor configuration..... I am testing out different windings with the SSG circuit...

Is free energy green?

Tj

ren
05-12-2009, 09:04 AM
Nice TJ.

Im not sure if you have enough bolts holding it however:rofl:

No seriously, that aint coming apart there anytime soon. What is the plastic you used?

Good to see someone else having a go.

tjnlsn255
05-12-2009, 11:34 AM
Thanks Ren....

I use 1/2 thick cutting boards from a local restraunt supply store...

All the stainless steal bolts are for the various combinations that I can use....

I have different plastic panels for my SSG and for the Window motor and I also made enough room for a mult-coil SSG configuration that I am going to try next.....

My rotor can expand horizontally to include extra magnets next to each other or seperated....also I have plastic spacers underneath each magnet so I can add a second layer of magnets to each position.....

With a different rotor all together I can install my Newman motor "tower" and use the same bearing and base for everything.....

It really gives me some flexability....

Now its time to start trying out all the combinations and different circuits....

I am learning more about motors and basic electronics than I have in years and this way is very fun too......

Have a most excellent day.....

Tj

Mark
05-12-2009, 11:53 AM
TJ!

I like it! I'd like to place my order now for 1 rotor please. :cheers:

What kind of wire is that your using? Did you balance your rotor and if so how. Looks nice TJ, you should get some good RPM's if your rotor is balanced fairly well.

tjnlsn255
05-12-2009, 12:43 PM
Hi Mark,

First of all I want to say thank you all for inspiring me not to be a victim of energy but to personally have the freedom to explore the creation of energy....:thumbsup:

I am in the process of balancing my rotor ... I am sanding the out edge and adding weights to it..... I have inserted the rotor shaft (1/2 stainless steal) into my drill press and spin it at increasing speeds.... and then correcting any wobbling....

The rotor itself is easy to make with a circle template and several 1/2 inch thick cutting boards......... my rotor is 11" diamater because that is the most I can get with my drill press between the chuck and stand.... my next one will be 20 inch diameter or so....

Is free energy green?

Tj

ren
05-12-2009, 10:43 PM
Hmm. Cutting boards hey:)

That would probably be polyethylene then, just like mine:thumbsup:

Good idea planning for future improvements and alterations.

tjnlsn255
05-12-2009, 11:18 PM
Thanks all!

It is not as good as Rick's "Pipe Dream" but it works for me for now.....

Have a most excellent and fun evening......

Tj

Mark
05-13-2009, 12:13 PM
Hey Ren

I havent seen any updates lately on darth vader. Hows your build going?

ren
05-13-2009, 09:38 PM
got supports and coil formers the other day. Need two small spacers (being made up at the moment) and a base and I am ready to start winding. Cant wait:thumbsup:

Mark
05-14-2009, 12:00 AM
Good Deal Ren

I bet your going to make your coils removable this time. If you can get that monster turning some RPM's it should have some good torque. How many coils are you going to use?

Mark

ren
05-14-2009, 09:20 PM
six eventually. God willing. Its going to be a bit trickey making them all fit.

Inquorate
05-14-2009, 10:55 PM
@ren eagerly awaiting your motor

@tj did you think, Hrm I'll find some breadboards, or ooh look breadboards - sweet..

I keep going into $2 shops and thinking of uses for all the knick-knacks..

erfinder
05-29-2009, 06:06 AM
Ren,

Hard to catch up with you...I finially uploaded some images of my Capacitor Discharge Engine .... check em out when you get a chance.

Page 2 - Machining (http://www.forgotten-genius.com/documents/page_2___machining.html)

More to come....will be asking for a bit of group advice soon....

Please forgive me for interupting the flow of this thread.


Regards

Mark
05-29-2009, 02:12 PM
Hello Erfinder,

Jump in when ever you like! I'm not familiar with what you are building but your work is EXCELLENT! Good luck and I look forward to seeing it completed.

Mark

Inquorate
05-30-2009, 12:15 AM
Looks damn impressive. Now to google capacitor discharge engine.

Love and light

Addendum; gray motor. Now I get it.

ren
05-30-2009, 07:57 AM
ERF!:notworthy:

Fat......Super FAT. I love it. :D Looks very precision. Love those massive coils inset into the aluminum. Cant wait to see more.

Ive been run off my feet mate. So much to do and so much I want to do, but very little free time to do it! I am waiting for a couple of bolts to come in and I should be able to assemble the frame and rotor/coil supports. Hopefully this week sometime.

My yahoo messenger is playing up, I cant log on anymore. Going to try and reinstall to see if that fixes the problem.

And please interrupt my thread anytime. Infact, Id rather see pics of yours now instead of mine! Best interruption ever.

Chat soon.

:cheers:

Mark
06-01-2009, 12:12 AM
It's about time you got back to work Ren, I thought maybe Darth Vader has taken his last breath. :rofl:

ren
06-04-2009, 02:00 AM
For anyone out there who is still watching this thread and hasnt fallen asleep:rofl:

Bolts came today. Coils soon.:blowout:

Inquorate
06-04-2009, 05:36 AM
LOL, the coils will take quite a while to wind.. But you seem to be quite a patient guy :)

ren
06-04-2009, 07:21 AM
actually mate, the coils will only take a day or so to wind, well for the first three anyway. Thats all the wire I have at the moment, but three coils will get the thing crankin. I already have them divided up, and a jig about %60 done. I need to bolt the thing down so I can get a final measurement on the length of the coil and then I can finish the jig and off I go.

Compared to how long I have waited to get it this far the coils will be a walk in the park!

Regards :cheers:

Jetijs
06-04-2009, 07:43 AM
Great progress ren :thumbsup:
Your machine looks awesome! Can't wait to see it run.
Thkank you for sharing :)

ren
06-04-2009, 07:56 AM
Great progress ren :thumbsup:
Your machine looks awesome! Can't wait to see it run.
Thkank you for sharing :)


Thankyou Jet. I appreciate it. I cant wait to see it run too.

Still got those neos laying around for one?

Jetijs
06-04-2009, 08:11 AM
Yes, they are just sitting on a shelf and waiting :)
I have been so busy the last months that I haven't got a chance to work even on the attraction motors that is the first thing on my list. But I hope things will change till the end of the summer :)
:cheers:

tjnlsn255
06-04-2009, 03:50 PM
Nice build so far Ren.....:thumbsup:

I look forward to additional pictures.....

The braided sterio speaker wire (250 ft of 16 guage braided copper) I tried on my motor worked well but now I have to rewind it with a trigger wire so that I can use both strands of speaker wire as power windings...... I am sure with one strand of 16 gauge as a trigger wire the thing is not that efficient.....

Maybe I will work on a triggering disk next so that I can use a Hall or Optic trigger.....

Have fun.......

Tj

sinergicus
06-10-2009, 12:02 PM
Hi;my knowledge in electronics is poor so I want to asking your opinion ....
It is posiible to change the mjl21193 and 21194 with 2N3055 transistor for an
little low power window motor?
The circuit will work with 2N3055?
Thanx
Mike

Mark
06-10-2009, 12:13 PM
Hi Mike

Sure you can use the 2n3055 and the 2n2955 instead of the bigger transistors

Mark

ren
06-11-2009, 07:10 AM
Hi Mike
and the 2n2955 instead of the bigger transistors

Mark

Often known as the MJ2955. If you use TO3s like these its easy to hook the bridge up. Buy some ring connectors and use one side of the case for the power wire/s and the other side of the case for the ac connection to the bridge. Bolt it all down:thumbsup:

More progress

Mark
06-16-2009, 12:03 PM
Ok Ren you've had more than a couple of days to wind your coils, whats the hold up :rofl:

I want to see Vader working with the force!

Mark

ren
06-16-2009, 11:14 PM
True, you got me there Mark.

Small re-machining of the formers done yesterday. Custom washers made too. Coil jig is complete.

I want to build it right, apologies for the waiting, believe you me, it's infinitely more painful on this end. But it's no use rushing it, when that happens I usually have to go back and redo it.

Fingers crossed, Ill have the first coil wound in the next couple of days.

Touchwood

Inquorate
06-16-2009, 11:42 PM
Ren, you've warded yourself twice; crossed fingers AND touched wood.. Quick, throw some salt over Vader :rofl:

Take care :)

ren
06-17-2009, 10:05 PM
Lol. Done Ben.

Now to keep a close eye out for black cats.

Mark, a short video just for you.;)

Hope its somewhat appeasing to the senses:cheers:

YouTube - See me spin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fDvv4u6RVk)

Mark
06-18-2009, 12:14 PM
Ahhhh Thanks Ren, that was a small fix. I need more! :rofl:

Looks nice and smooooth with a long run down time!

I've got a 5 lb spool of 30awg flat wire that would look real nice all coiled up on that.

I'll need another fix on Monday so get winding. :rofl:

:cheers: Mark

Mark
06-22-2009, 03:53 PM
Hey Ren

I just watched your video on your 8 filar cap pulser and I must say that is one impressive energizer! Totally awesome! Did you make that rotor yourself or have a machinist make it?

Now back to Vader, hows that coil winding going? Any progress?

ren
06-22-2009, 10:00 PM
Patience my young Padawan (insert "Force Smilies" here).....soon.

Yeah the rotor on the 8 filar vid is something I had cut for me. Its cut the same way as the coil formers for the window. A dude actually thought my coil formers were rotors at first. Would have been massive if they were.

You can get it done on a cnc machine. Cut a center hole and a circumference to suit. DONT GET IT LASER CUT. CNC router only.

Stuck magnets on myself. Super glue and 2 part epoxy work great on Acrylic.

Regards:cheers:

Mark
07-09-2009, 01:30 PM
Ren.....helloooo Rennnn.....

Hey buddy what the hold up? I dont want to hear any excuses :rofl: I want to see a video.

Anyways how are things going with the coil winding, almost done?

ren
07-10-2009, 01:14 AM
Coils done.

It works, but Im not happy with the results using trigger coils. I have ordered some hall sensors for more acute triggering.

So far I have only driven it off 2 of the 15 power windings.

Mark
07-10-2009, 01:45 AM
Sorry to hear that, looks even bigger than it did before.

So what kind of results were you getting?

Michelinho
07-10-2009, 05:14 AM
Hi ren,

Very nice Window Motor you have built there. :thumbsup: What RPM are you achieving so far with trigger coils? Looking forward to see your results too.

I have built one similar to that (it is still being tested) and am now working on another one slightly different in concept. This one will have 2 rotors, one inside the other with external drive coils (using the same electronic circuit and hall effect sensors as the first model), internal and external output coils plus the inner rotor will spin by magnetic coupling to the external rotor. All the coils (drive and output) will be bifilar like the first model.

Keep up the good work,

Michel

ren
07-10-2009, 06:39 AM
Sorry to hear that, looks even bigger than it did before.

So what kind of results were you getting?

Ooops. Just figured out circuit was wrong, paralleled two resistors, instead of series. Glad to announce its working MUCH better now. I guess it looks bigger now with all the bits and pieces, including the base plate attached, but I assure you, its still the same structure :)

As far as results, I have had very little time to test it on the bench, but here are some interesting points.

* I can tune it to draw 0 amps (1-5 amp panel gauge). In reality it is probably drawing 50-100ma, it just cant be seen on this gauge. At this speed, with the output directly hooked up to the input (and no cap) it ran for nearly an hour (50min) before I could audibly hear the rotational speed had decreased. The battery was depleted from 12.34 to 12.20 from starting the machine (hogs the amps to get it started) but once tuned to "0" amps it climbed up to 12.34 and when I finished the run (stopped it when I realised it was ever so slowly decreasing speed) the battery was where it started, 12.34v.

* I can measure 10vac on a single wire from an undriven coil at 12v 500ma input.

* @ 24v the rotor speeds up very quickly and has presented some vibrations that will need to be sorted:( . I think it could be as simple as a balancing, similar to the number I did on the original with the wheel weights. At full speed it hums along, and rumbles like it is an ICE V8 rough idling. :D

*All the results above are with one of the 15 power windings connected. ALOT more to come.

Michel, Id be interested in any details you care to share regarding your configuration.

Regards

Mark
07-10-2009, 12:59 PM
Great job Ren, have you taken any RPM readings?

I'm back to work again myself on a new motor. Finally found someone to make my rotors for me. I'm having 4 rotors made up. I will be using at least 2 on a single shaft. My power coil will be sandwiched between both rotors to take advantage of both ends of the coil. I'll be trying to make my own design to replicate the Watson Machine.

Michelinho
07-10-2009, 04:04 PM
Hi ren,

The first version of my attempt at a Bedini Window Like Motor can be seen in this thread:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/showthread.php?t=4161

For the present build, I only have the internal rotor made but I am taking photographs as I go along and will post them in a futur thread documenting it.

Take care,

Michel

ren
07-11-2009, 01:25 AM
Sounds good. I remember bumping into that thread before.

@ Mark,

I havent taken any rpm readings yet. I am waiting to build my third circuit for the third coil and then I will do a video.

Regards

tjnlsn255
07-11-2009, 10:05 AM
Outstanding work Ren.....:thumbsup:

So what are your thoughts on trigger windings now that the resistors are correct?

Will you still go to hall switching?

I am really looking forward to the video......:-)

Be happy.....

Todd

wantfreeenergy
07-11-2009, 04:37 PM
Just wanted to say that is looking AWESOME ren. This is one I've been wanting to replicate for a while. I wanna go big enough that I could generate 2hp. so I can overdrive an induction motor to make an induction generator. Just like rikoff was saying to do when you were building you first one. BTW any guess on the hp? It only takes 1/10th the energy to spin a induction generator. IE a 20 hp induction generator making 9-10kw only requires 2 hp of input to overdrive it.

AWESOME simply AWESOME

ren
07-12-2009, 01:35 AM
Thanks guys.

@ TJ, the triggering windings are working fine now. I will still be implementing or testing halls as well, Ive got plenty of room for the circuit to expand.

@ Want Free... No idea on horse power, it would need a decent input voltage for anything significant. I have other avenues to explore besides straight up grunt. But in so saying I have an induction generator on the cards down the track. I should be getting the third circuit completed this week and I will post a low voltage video. I am going to have to track down and rectify the vibration if I want to run it on more than 24v.

Thanks for your interest.

Regards

tjnlsn255
07-12-2009, 06:23 PM
Hi Ren,

The vibrations really mess things up..... I have a large Newman motor but the magnets are large and I have to tape small washers on the sides of the magnet holder to figure out how to balance it.....

I found a local machine shop so maybe I will take it over to them and watch them as they balance it..... so I can see how they do it.....

Good luck with your balancing act....LOL

Tj

ren
07-14-2009, 03:02 AM
Ok, here is a preliminary video guys and girls.

I noticed an interesting generator effect that I thought was worth sharing. Early days still, but looking good.

Sorry about quality it looked much better before I compressed it.

Input appreciated.

regards

YouTube - Window motor/generator (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW2XukVj_k0)

darkwizard
07-14-2009, 03:08 AM
wow ren you are amazing :notworthy:

ren
07-14-2009, 03:23 AM
Thanks Darkwizard, its been along time in the making, great to finally see it evolving into what I imagined in my head:thumbsup:

Inquorate
07-14-2009, 04:49 AM
I'll have to come by and see it running at some point.. Love your work :-)

tjnlsn255
07-14-2009, 11:00 AM
Very nice video and thoughts Ren!

So maybe with all those power windings you could create a large cap pulser with a large bank of caps.....maybe there is a way to pulse off the cap bank power to drive something else..... very interesting......

:thumbsup:

Todd

baroutologos
07-14-2009, 11:37 AM
Excellent work Ren! It's a masterpiece indeed!:v-peace:
You are an formidable tinkerer!

Regards,
Baroutologos

Mark
07-14-2009, 11:54 AM
Great job Ren!

I see that you used 1/4 inch or so copper tubing for a power junction. I've done that before but had a hard time getting the solder to stick to it and ended up drilling holes in it and using self tapping screws. What was your trick to be able to solder to it, or did the wires solder on easily? What guage wire did you use for your coils?

Looks fantastic! :notworthy: Worth the wait!

ren
07-14-2009, 12:05 PM
Thanks all.

I'll have to come by and see it running at some point.. Love your work :-)

Sure. Just give me a buzz and we can tee something up.

@ Tj, yeah there are a few different options here. Ive got four wires on each coil at the moment that arent being used. So one could explore more motor or generator function. And input voltage can be varied for greater tensions. Its fairly obvious that the input power does influence the output of wires in series, or any wire for that matter. So if three wires in series can read nearly tripple the input voltage then increasing the input voltage only amplifies the effects. This does vary greatly as well with input current.

Id love Peter (or even better John) to offer their thoughts on this. Ive already placed four wires in series and the cap charges to 50v within a second or so. The slight little increase in amp draw at the initial connection of the capacitor caught my curiosity. I was wondering if it may not be an issue if the capacitor is not discharged below the voltage of the input battery.

Regards.

ren
07-14-2009, 12:22 PM
Thanks Mark,

At the moment I have all emitter connections (the power terminals basically) just clipped on, bar one. I managed to solder it in place by heating the copper tube for about 40 seconds with my under-rated soldering iron. You can do it easier if you lay a coat of solder on each connecting piece before connecting with more solder. You really need a more powerful iron, or thinner copper. The screws could actually be a good idea at the moment for me, as I like to be able to take them off to get to the circuit. What would be really cool is a little hose clamp or tee piece that could lock into place.:rolleyes:

Gauge is 0.9 for the powers and 0.5 for the triggers.

:cheers:

Mark
07-14-2009, 12:47 PM
Ren do you know what awg .9 and .5 would be?

ren
07-14-2009, 01:03 PM
check out a wire gauge chart. The numbers I have given you are in millimeters and arent exact. Coating can vary to. Trying to match it exactly to mine isnt really necessary anyway.

0.9 is roughly AWG 19 from memory. The 0.5 is more like an AWG 23/4.

baroutologos
07-15-2009, 01:32 PM
@Ren,

i saw oyur tube videos regarding pulse-charge capacitors of SSG energizer.
Tell me, your best efficiency in electrical terms, charge-in, charge-out , how much is it?

help, alleviate the curiosity of a fellow experimenter! :)

Regards,
baroutologos

ren
07-15-2009, 11:55 PM
Hi,

Probably better suited for a different thread. Ive seen cop>1 including mechanical many times. Electrically only its usually in the 80-90% with one exception being some tests I ran on my bike wheel oscillator, straight SG output. On those tests I ran a 12.80v 18 amp hour down to 12.20v and charged 2 12 amp hours from 12.22 up to 14.50, where I terminated the test. Resting voltage for the 2 12 amp hours was 12.77. Test ran for 8 hours, drawing 800ma from the primary. The 24 amp hours worth of charged batteries were drained through a 12 watt (1 amp) auto globe to check the quality of the charge. Drained for 7 hours before they hit 12.2 resting voltage.

It needs to be taken with a grain of salt however. The charge batteries are second hand, but do power a load very well. As far as I can tell they still live up to their 12amp/hr ratings. But measuring voltages will only tell you so much. So as far as SCIENTIFIC evidence, I have very little that would hold up in a court of law:rolleyes: But enough for me to keep experimenting.

Regards

tjnlsn255
07-16-2009, 03:54 PM
Can someone point me to the area where the 1/2 sequencial circuit operation is described?

My question is when the trigger transistor is turned on does it turn on both the larger NPN and PNP transistors that are connected to the power coil at the same time and does that make this circuit more powerful than the single 2N3055 SG circuit?

Thank you for any and all info on this 1/2 sequencial circuit....

Explore all the possibilities.....:thumbsup:

Tj

baroutologos
07-17-2009, 08:09 AM
Thanks Ren for your sincere result postings! I think you are one of the prides in this forum. :)
Keep the good work man, and have an open mind.

I wait to see your window motor's benchmark tests.

Regards,
Baroutologos

Mark
07-27-2009, 09:02 PM
Hey Ren

Whats going on? I went to look at your latest video you posted 2 weeks ago and it was removed, what happened? I thought you'd have some new info to report, any progress.

I got my latest twin rotor single coil motor running now and I'm doing some tests, looks good so far. I found that alternating my magnets n-s-n-s made better speed than all north facing. And when I added the 2nd rotor to the back or bottom side of the coil it also added speed. Having the magnets on the inside of the rotor instead of the outside does come at a loss of speed but my charging seems to be very good. I will be adding more circuits and coils soon!

ren
07-27-2009, 10:58 PM
Hi Mark,

I ripped it off cause I wasnt happy with the presentation of it. I will post another shortly, still trying out various circuit configurations and triggering.

When it is more presentational I will display more of it. Keep thinking about that cap I showed in my brief video.

Your config sounds interesting, post up some pics if you can.

Thanks for posting. I was expecting this thread to drop off the face of the earth:rofl:

Regards

darkwizard
08-02-2009, 02:21 AM
i have the circuit ;)

ren
08-02-2009, 02:32 AM
well enlighten us then....:)

Do you mean THE circuit or just the circuit?

darkwizard
08-03-2009, 06:29 PM
Put the cap in a coil apart from the power coils, put the cap in that coil instead the primary battery, put a transistor, like bedini sg , with trigger coil, etc, put the recovery diode , add a diode between emitter and colector, it will permit the virtual south charge the capacitor. Wallah, an almost 0 drag generator, it works for me it worked for others.


Is a sg circuit with a discharged capacitor instead of a battery, with a additional diode between emitter and colector that permits the reversed current pass through the coil and charge the cap, it generates current on virtual south at a short moment. It will charge the cap, i run my motor with my hand and it works, it charges the cap and it generates radiant energy that is recovered through the recovery diode like in sg. It uses the trigger coil because the timing is perfect.

tjnlsn255
08-04-2009, 09:59 AM
Darkwizard,

Could you post a schematic of what you described?

Have a most excellent day....

Tj

darkwizard
08-04-2009, 03:29 PM
http://www.energeticforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3420&stc=1&d=1249399738

It will generate little drag if the coil impedance is low.

My Coil is at 4 ohms, the cap charges until 8 volts at 900 rpm, it remains constantly charged until the speed decreases.

Joit
08-04-2009, 05:07 PM
Looks like an across charging, like you did describe it, but very nice Work. Grats Darkwizard.

darkwizard
08-04-2009, 07:21 PM
Look it, it is a simple circuit, is a modified Bedini SG with recovery, the diode across the transistor allows the virtual south to charge the cap, nothing more, it generates little drag with the virtual south, but when the time is right it will switch the little energy across the inductor, it takes nanoseconds , all the action ocurrs in a few nanoseconds, because the cap is charged and discharged at almost the same time, it draws some mechanical energy but a part of the torque is restored when the cap is discharged across the coil, and the radiant energy is recovered.

darkwizard
08-04-2009, 07:45 PM
The coil must generate a lower voltage than the charging battery voltage, in this way it will generate lower drag because the north pole pulse is not used to charge the battery with current. It generates little energy, of course , i connected the recovery to the primary battery of my sg circuit.

Mark
08-04-2009, 08:12 PM
Hi Darkwizard

So what kind of stats can you give us? Is it a self runner or does it just increase the efficiency. Have you done a comparison to the bipolar circuit?

darkwizard
08-04-2009, 08:25 PM
Hi Darkwizard

Is it a self runner or does it just increase the efficiency.

Th answer: it just increase the efficiency

ren
08-30-2009, 06:30 AM
Hello again.

Some more progress. Experimenting with halls. Working well.

YouTube - Bedini Cole Window motor. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnHDRjO7BGE)

Regards

tjnlsn255
08-30-2009, 12:21 PM
:thumbsup:

Your video has really helped me to see how I can change my frame so that I can wind the coils is a way that does not have to split the rotor shaft, excellent....:notworthy:

Around the rotor do you have only the two visible coil bundles or do you have a third one underneath?

It is very interesting that with three coil bundles the configuration looks a lot like a car alternator.... :thumbsup:

Be happy.......

Tj

ren
08-30-2009, 09:28 PM
Hi TJ.

There are three coils, the one underneath is a little hard to see. There is actually space for three more coils like this, out of phase from the first three.

It will look even more like an alternator when those go in

Regards

tjnlsn255
08-30-2009, 11:39 PM
Ren,

Does it matter if the coil bundles are all wound the same direction or is one of them wound reverse from the other two?

Awsome work!

Be happy....

Tj

ren
08-31-2009, 12:02 AM
You are going to have to hook up polarities correctly. All my coils are wound the same way and are placed the same way. This is due to the geometry of the rotor. If all coils are to fire at once then they must be aligned to the correct poles on the rotor at the same time.

It sounds worse than it actually is. A quick test by placing the coil and briefly supplying current directly from a battery will sort you out. You will see quite quickly how they must be placed, and how the current must alternate if rotation is to be achieved with the coils firing on all magnet passes.

Regards

tjnlsn255
08-31-2009, 12:50 PM
Thanks Ren!

Excellent description/explanation.....

Now for all the fun winding.....LOL

Be happy....

Tj

yx630514
04-09-2010, 07:36 AM
New progress? Very concerned about!

tjnlsn255
04-09-2010, 11:24 AM
I have put my window motor on hold as I am currently working on an "Steorn Orbo" replication.....

I find the toroid and two magnets effect to be a lot like a window motor effect so far..... the window motor is a great way to develop a little torque from what I had seen in my build....

Please feel free to post your thoughts and findings on your window motor....

Pictures are good also......:thumbsup:

Hopes and Dreams....

Tj

yx630514
04-11-2010, 01:35 AM
From a structural point of view: the window motor should be the most likely to self-running type.

tjnlsn255
04-11-2010, 11:38 AM
Check out this video.....

Thank you DadHav..... great window motor video....

YouTube - Window Motor Assembly And Capacitor Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw9H5p4McZA&playnext_from=TL&videos=Kd0jr3V9cgs)

Hopes and Dreams....

Tj

ren
09-23-2010, 08:44 PM
For those interested in the window motor you should check out this one JB has built.

YouTube - Magnetic Motor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVDpaoQ68Ms)

Regards

Mark
09-24-2010, 12:15 AM
just after I watch the video it was removed by user, go figure.

cikljamas
09-25-2010, 11:54 PM
ren, good work, congratulations !
well, while i m waiting cro cop (my countryman) to fight frank mir
(in about 3 hours) i decided to upload my window on youtube, and
just for you :

YouTube - my first bedini window motor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ASy4uIc0L4)

it is just my first window, and i did it with materials that i had, but
when i provide big magnets i will make a big one like rens is...
here in Zagreb we have one store with neodimiums, but i think that
ren wrote that international post is about 300 bucks for his magnets...
that is a little problem, who knows how to provide this magnets cheaper...
this was just rhetorical question, but maybe there is some trick though...

ren, if i good remember, you wrote that you already achieved cop > 1 ?
how do you know ? i ask that, because i think you later wrote you
didnt make any measurements yet...so i wonder...

rebato
09-27-2010, 11:43 PM
Has anyone attempted a solid state version of the window motor? The SSG has a solid state version. How about the window motor?

cikljamas
10-02-2010, 12:34 AM
Why dont you see my second bedini window motor ?

YouTube - my second bedini window motor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p6cMOCgTeI)

tjnlsn255
01-09-2011, 10:07 PM
erik,

You are off topic!

Please remove your post and start your own thread!

Tj