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gmeat
06-01-2008, 04:51 PM
Hi Guys,

Ok, Here's an idea that I have been kicking around and I'm not sure if it's worth the space that I'm taking up to explain it but here goes nothing :wall: .Could this be a good idea?.It just seeems to me this idea would work best with a Lindemann Attraction motor but could be utilized for any pulse motor.What if we take a # of capacitors, Lets just say 10 to start with (But any # would probably due for this experiment and it seems to me the more the merrier:sshh: ).Now to begin with I was thinking to have also 10 batteries in series to get me 120 Volts to potentialize the capacitors that would be hooked up in paralell so as to get each cap charged up to 120 volts each(again any # voltage would suffice for this theory).Now heres the hard part,Can someone (Possibly Lighty,Or one of the more Tech savvy guys)Make a circuit to

A:After the group of 10 capacitors is charged up in paralell with the battery,Can we isolate each individual cap so each one has 120 volts of potential.

And then


B: Discharge each cap one at a time into the motor.

And then

C:Have a cap on the back side of the motor circuit to recapture each individual pulse to a sort of tank capacitor at the back side of the motor(which I envision as a sort of like a transformer type of bedini affect with a bifilar type winding to tank capacitor at the back end of motor).

And then

D:Take what has gathered up in that backside capacitor and at this point reconnect it to my original cap bank of 10 capacitors to repotentialize the cap bank.

And Now at this point,Because I would be inclined to believe but am really not sure that the potential energy would be sitting at a lesser voltage,We now reconnect the battery bank to RESTART the cycle.The beneficial part of this circuit would be that now the battery would only have to for the lack of a better word Top-off the cap bank on the following cycles:whistle: .

Let me say that 1st and foremost I may be way out of line in my thinking:thinking: .And really I am NOT tech savvy enough to put a circuit of this sort together,But, I will say that I believe that this type of arrangement has some physics Types of annomallies to it.I think we could really stretch out a batteries energy in this way.If ANYBODY would like to take a crack at a schematic of this sort by all means PLEASE post it in this thread.Many thanks in advance:notworthy: .


Any thoughts or contributions would be MUCH appreciated.


-Gary

ren
06-01-2008, 09:40 PM
Gary what you are describing sounds alot like charge syphoning? I believe Tesla and others have mastered it. Bedinis solid state patent charger/driving devices with a pulse uses these techniques. I have been thinking about this for a while now, and planning something similar for my next replication. Basically, fill caps, disconnect from source, pulse caps and reconnect to source to complete cycle. Its not going to be as easy as that of course, but thats the general idea. I think a simple commutator would be easiest to experiment with.

gmeat
06-01-2008, 10:21 PM
Gary what you are describing sounds alot like charge syphoning? I believe Tesla and others have mastered it. Bedinis solid state patent charger/driving devices with a pulse uses these techniques. I have been thinking about this for a while now, and planning something similar for my next replication. Basically, fill caps, disconnect from source, pulse caps and reconnect to source to complete cycle. Its not going to be as easy as that of course, but thats the general idea. I think a simple commutator would be easiest to experiment with.




Hi Ren,


I like this idea but it seems a little complicated to build it!.I have thought of a commutator also but I havent really put my mind to it in as far as it would seem that I'm going to need alot of contact points to activate each event in such a setup and also it would seem that I would need a timing wheel or possibly more than 1 timing wheels.It just seems like a solid state switching setup would be easier(for someone who knows what they're doing anyways lol:p ).I have built a very crude looking commutator on a small lindemann type motor that I converted from an old microwave fan motor just to test out the principle behind it.You know what kind of ticks me off is my Dad is a mechanical engineer by trade who's now retired and I cant seem to get him interested in this field that I personally have a great interest in.Anyways, About 27-28 years ago he built his own variation of a Howard Johnson motor that he has and had to use cresent shaped ELECTROmagnets (because he claimed nobody would make him that particular shape of magnet at the time).Well, We wound only 1 magnet and put it in the motor housing and tried powering it and I swear to this day I know I saw that wheel move a half a turn,But it stopped after that and we did'nt bother to wind any more magnets and we just let it END right there.So since that day I have been thinking prretty much all of that time about these kind of motors and have built my own versions of them.Now I've been following alot of this stuff on the internet from about the late 90's and along comes Peter with this great concept of a motor and you can bet I'll be doing some slight modifications on my dads motor soooon.let's just see how efficient we can make these motors guys:D .Good luck and happy experimenting;) .


-Gary

theremart
06-01-2008, 10:54 PM
Sounds like the "School BOY motor" which disconnects the primary battery from the loop for it to get a shot from the charged up capacitor.

The problem I see with your suggestions is that capacitors ( at least the ones I have played with... do not have much storage capacity.

I have considered doing this to try to tap some of the energy of inertia to the wheel. I am thinking that a 555 timer to flip a dpdt relay might do the trick on this...

I want to share this video I found yesterday.... He uses solar power to run his SSG

YouTube - Bedini Motor running on regulated low power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYfAzIytEJ8)

I have ordered one of these to see if it compares to running my inverter. It is 90% efficient at converting the DC to a higher DC or lower DC and he has had good sucess with the SSG.

gmeat
06-01-2008, 10:59 PM
[quote=ren;19956]Gary what you are describing sounds alot like charge syphoning? ]


Hi again Ren,

Thx for that term "charge siphoning". I didnt know people were already experimenting with this type of thing.I just googled a search which brought me to some interesting links.thx

-Gary

Matthew Jones
06-02-2008, 02:39 PM
I tried somthing along these lines. I didn't go 120vdc, just 12. I also didn't used an electrical circiut per say I used a points with a cam.
The first circiut I built only did a 85% recovery on the current I put in, but also swept the BEMF off the coil. So it was hard to tell how much hot current I was actually getting. If you just measured the batterry at start and the battery at finish after a rest period you end up recovering about 85% most of the time. See the pic.
http://www.matthewcjones.com/power/PulseMotorMJSchematic.jpg
This circuit setup right can work with a regular permanent Mag DC motor. Can also be switched of a mosfet. with about the same results.

After this I went on and added lobes the cam to pulse the motor back and forth with a Cap in the front end. Too measure it we had measure the total of each batterry together then again at rest. Doing this based on tests in which we totally killing the dipole we devised a formula for figureing out how much energy we reclaimed.
Case#1 Both batts in parallel no caps inline, measure the battery voltage, run motor while killing the dipole with amp meter inline. Run 1 hour, Rest 1 hour. Measure battery. Get the total watts
Case#2 Run motor as designed with amp meter inline. Run 1 hour, rest 1 hour measure batterries.
Equation = (Case #2) - (Case #1) = Recovered energy.
This might not be the best way to test it, but... it showed a 93% recovery on average.
The schematic might not be clear at first but the black spots are on times they represent cam lobes. And actually the points are ON when the cam is Flat to the surface. Lifted it would turn off. I also don't have the caps in the drawing. We added them afterwards. Do to the smackdown the we put on the first batterries we ran. My garage floor hates me. We used 1/2 farad 500 watts stereo caps.
http://www.matthewcjones.com/power/DoubleBattPulseRecoveryJ.jpg

One point I want to reflect on the circiut your proposing is the fact that without SOME EXTRA ENERGY SOURCE, the caps alone are going to lose. If based on my experience you can grab up to 93% of your current and you caps lose an additional 1% your still gonna lose charge after a while. Now you can supliment the batteries with a good magneto generator but thats at the cost of loosing torque out of the motor. And generally when you start asking for more torque you get more draw on the circiut and you use more energy at a greater loss. Generally speaking thats not the best option. An addition power source like solar panel could be used, I'm not sure how that would act.

I personally am building a new motor with more coil and bigger magnets. The camshaft setup takes a bit of torque away from you while running. So I thought it best to shoot more torque so I could drive a bigger cam and a load.
The next circuit just like the one above but it uses 4 batteries. We pulse out of 2 batts in series to make 24volt with the cap in parrallel with one of the batteries, then we recover with the other batteries in parrallel with each other and the cap, Cap in front being the first one that gets hit. Then the proccess switches. Somthing like the tesla switch.
I believe that if i can get somewhere in the ballpark of 250watts pulses to the batterry I can reverse the ION flow out of the batterry. This is the energy I believe I am loosing. If IONs are flowing out and not recovered it account for the loss. I'm not sure it will be enough though buts its the next logical step in recovery.

I have tried many things add to the recovery, the biggest and most promising thing I have found was using a bifiliar coil to drive the motor while KILLING the dipole. Using the second wire to collect the BEMF or Implied Negative Energy (I like the second title better) and growing it out through a series of bridge rectifiers. Anybody can see this in either a straight pulse motor or a ssg Bedini motor. The extra energy that comes off the coil in the second wined will growing in voltage through a series of bridge rectifiers. hook the coil wires to the AC's then take the DC's and hook them again to anothers set of AC's and so on. If your using positive energy to pulse your coil the energy coming off the extra set of wires will grow in voltage. Check the AC voltage and amperage at the coil then after the first bridge then after the second and so on. You notice that the measurable amperage goes down at the rate consistant to diode turn on resistance, but the voltage goes up. You can get the voltages up pretty big through diodes or bridges, but the measurable amperage will go down.
My belief is the amperage come from a small transformer effect in the coil. When all measurable amperage is pretty much gone you should have a very significant amount of voltage.
If this could be converted in some way similiar to the way Grey did it, I think it would be the best power source for recharging your batteries.
But it doesn't show up in recovery situation like the first schematic. ONly the small amount of energy from the transistor effect. Which you can loose by doing the Chain Bridge rectifier trick.
In a recovery situation, If it were possible you could seperate the Hot current form the Cold current, then grow it and convert it you could conceivable do alot. IE T. Bearden "Power New York off a nine volt battery"

But so far I can only reclaim it no conversion as of yet.

Anyway hope that helps ya out some. Sorry If I was rambling.

Matt

gmeat
06-03-2008, 10:12 AM
Hi Matthew,


Thx for all the great discriptions and explainations of what you have tried. Unfortunately I had a long day of work yesterday and am just viewing your response this morning before I leave for work, But my first thought in relation to "the more torque you ask the motor to do the more current you have to put in" is this.I believe that if we can shorten the length of the commutator contact ON times and add more of them then we also create more pulses which to me adds more recapturable energy.This is just a quick thought for now and I really have to go to work.Thx for your contributions in this thread.


-Gary

gmeat
06-04-2008, 05:02 PM
Sounds like the "School BOY motor" which disconnects the primary battery from the loop for it to get a shot from the charged up capacitor.

The problem I see with your suggestions is that capacitors ( at least the ones I have played with... do not have much storage capacity.

I have considered doing this to try to tap some of the energy of inertia to the wheel. I am thinking that a 555 timer to flip a dpdt relay might do the trick on this...

I want to share this video I found yesterday.... He uses solar power to run his SSG

YouTube - Bedini Motor running on regulated low power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYfAzIytEJ8)

I have ordered one of these to see if it compares to running my inverter. It is 90% efficient at converting the DC to a higher DC or lower DC and he has had good sucess with the SSG.



Hi Mart,

Thanks for your input.I've been considering Ren's idea of a commutator as more of a better way to accomplish what I'm looking to do and after thinking it through it's not as complicacted as I first thought it would be.I never took the time to think why Peter would want to feed energy back to the front side of the motor but it's starting to make sense to me now.Happy experimenting:D .


-Gary

ren
06-05-2008, 10:14 AM
Mart something I have considered for a commutator is a disc that has a conductive circumference which is run off the shaft. Instead of using brushes that rub against its edge you could use steel bearings which sit ontop. Perhaps a little spring to keep tension together, but essentially very low friction. A good stainless bearing, so it will take some abuse. Just place tape around the circumference where you want to insulate conductivity. Fairly simple and should work I think.

theremart
06-05-2008, 10:53 PM
Mart something I have considered for a commutator is a disc that has a conductive circumference which is run off the shaft. Instead of using brushes that rub against its edge you could use steel bearings which sit ontop. Perhaps a little spring to keep tension together, but essentially very low friction. A good stainless bearing, so it will take some abuse. Just place tape around the circumference where you want to insulate conductivity. Fairly simple and should work I think.

Ok which motor of mine are you refering too? Or are you replying to my suggestions in this thread?

The Grinder I have converter to be like Peter's motor is using a reed switch.

But interesting idea.

Mart

Aaron
06-05-2008, 11:14 PM
Not sure if this is helpful to anyone, but I used this very simple and practically free mechanical switch. Power is connected 90% on, then during off time, caps discharged to battery. Off/on can of course be tweaked depending on the gap..50 on, 10 discharge 40 off whatever.
YouTube - Bedini SG Mechanical Open Close Switch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw7V_harFQU)

Idea is basically a play off of John's 1984 Energy book.

gmeat
06-06-2008, 12:21 AM
Mart something I have considered for a commutator is a disc that has a conductive circumference which is run off the shaft. Instead of using brushes that rub against its edge you could use steel bearings which sit ontop. Perhaps a little spring to keep tension together, but essentially very low friction. A good stainless bearing, so it will take some abuse. Just place tape around the circumference where you want to insulate conductivity. Fairly simple and should work I think.

Hi Ren,


Nice to see some creative thinking.I think that's an excellent idea Ren :thumbsup: .Thx for the suggestions everybody.

-Gary

ren
06-06-2008, 02:41 AM
Ok which motor of mine are you refering too? Or are you replying to my suggestions in this thread?

The Grinder I have converter to be like Peter's motor is using a reed switch.

But interesting idea.

Mart

Oops, lol. I was actually replying to Gary, I just looked at the posts wrong:eek: My bad.



@ Aaron. Thats what I am reffering to, except I thought to use bearings as the contact points. It may not work as well as brushes though.

Matthew Jones
06-07-2008, 01:48 AM
I believe that if we can shorten the length of the commutator contact ON times and add more of them then we also create more pulses which to me adds more recapturable energy

That has some truth. The point I didn't make is "If your trying to make torque, YOUR extra energy, then you want to consume as little as possible and save it for the output." Again , If torques what your after.
And what I was implying was How is the capacitor setup in your machine going to help you? I see it causing a loss. But I have focused on what I am doing which might be different.
It been my experience that the capacitor helps when to much energy is present to hit the battery with. Batteries don't like being pushed and pulled at high amperage, the cap doesn't care as long as its not to small.
I have personally never seen them personally create any extra source of energy. Just collect, regauge and smooth out energy.
So thats what I was getting at. Maybe you help me fill in some blanks.;)

I personally would just hit the battery with the discharge collecting cap while the coil off. Maybe one battery at a time so the potential has time to take. Unless the caps your planning on using are off the chart. Then uh.. I don't know.

@REN

I like the Steel bearing trick. That one has never come to mind. I am going to try that soon. Copper pipe painted with epoxy enamel in the pattern you need, then roll a bearing over it. Thats pretty much the ticket I can use.
"The REN switch". You better run to the patten office.
SkateBoard bearings Are Cunductive, and they hold up well.

Thanks
Matt

gmeat
06-07-2008, 03:09 PM
[quote=Matthew Jones;20260]That has some truth. The point I didn't make is "If your trying to make torque, YOUR extra energy, then you want to consume as little as possible and save it for the output." Again , If torques what your after.
And what I was implying was How is the capacitor setup in your machine going to help you? I see it causing a loss. But I have focused on what I am doing which might be different.
It been my experience that the capacitor helps when to much energy is present to hit the battery with. Batteries don't like being pushed and pulled at high amperage, the cap doesn't care as long as its not to small.
I have personally never seen them personally create any extra source of energy. Just collect, regauge and smooth out energy.
So thats what I was getting at. Maybe you help me fill in some blanks.;)

I personally would just hit the battery with the discharge collecting cap while the coil off.



Hi Matt,


Maybe I'm just over analyzing these motor concepts.My thinking is that it would be better to reuse what has been captured on the back end of the motor right away instead of letting it dissipate in a recovery battery.Also I believe that the supply battery would not have to work as hard (Another words if I start with a full cup of water ie the supply battery...,and pour out 1 cup of water to the motor and recover 1/2 a cup of water then on the following cycles I'm only supplying a half a cup of water to keep it going).Again,I'm only theorizing here and I'm probably way off with this idea but than again maybe I'm not.I sure would'nt mind hearing more opinions though one way or the other,I mean maybe someone is looking at this thread right now and knows hands down that it WILL NOT WORK the way I'm thinking for whatever the reason may be.Again thx to all the input from those who chime in.


-Gary

vzon17
06-08-2008, 12:15 AM
I found some good stuff to easily make commutators with. go to hardware store into garden department and get the copper snail tape. it is about 1 1/8 inch wide and is adhesive backed with bare copper face. Easy to cut with scissors and stic to any surface. good for tests but may not be good for extended long life. Its real easy to solder to also.

gmeat
06-09-2008, 03:13 AM
I found some good stuff to easily make commutators with. go to hardware store into garden department and get the copper snail tape. it is about 1 1/8 inch wide and is adhesive backed with bare copper face. Easy to cut with scissors and stic to any surface. good for tests but may not be good for extended long life. Its real easy to solder to also.



Hi Vzon17,


Thanks for the idea of the copper snail tape.Anyone have any suggestions for caps that might be suitable for such a project?.


-Gary