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View Full Version : SS wire Double Helix style electrolyzers


TuxAir
04-27-2008, 02:56 AM
Hello all. New guy here. This place is honestly the best source of information I have come across in my research. The tribal knowledge philosophy works well here. It is something we always practice at my work. You all are a great bunch.

Getting ready to build my first electrolyzers for my 3 vehicles. No worries, mechanical, sheet metal, electrical and basic machining skills are there, as is access to a full machine shop at work with people that owe me many favors in case I need something that requires a true machinist's skills. I fix jets for a living and don't blink twice about making things to fix them.

My question relates to which type electrolyzer I should make. There is a ton of information about plate style electrolyzers which seem to be the most common. Coaxial type using a rod and tube would seem to be the next most popular. I have all the build information I could want on these 2 types.

I came across one type of electrolyzer that uses twisted stainless steel wire wound in a double helix in 1qt. containers and was interested in this one but cannot find much information about it or how they compare.

My goal is to actually make an electrolyzer for all my cars. I am aiming for > 2V across the plates and looking at series wired electrolyzers. So a 6-pack of individual cells is on my drawing board already for 2 of the vehicles which both have a lot of room. Something that can be made smaller/thinner is on the board for the other vehicle due to space constraints.

Does anyone care to share their experiences on the stainless steel double helix electrolyzers and how they compare to the plate & coaxial tube styles? I would most definitely appreciate it.

Kind regards!

Redmeanie
04-27-2008, 04:46 PM
Tux,
I know how it is when you first come into the HHO Realm, All the Real Neat and Fancy looking different designs stand out to you. Then like everyone else you think " Boy that fancy looking one must work better! "
Trust me I HAVE LOOKED AT ALMOST EVERY DESIGN THERE IS POSSIBLE.....
And experimented with the ones I thought looked the most promising.
This is what I found:
The simpler designs seemed to be the most RELIABLE.
The Mid Range "Series" type were the most EFFICIENT.
The Overly Complex ones...Well THEY LOOKED GOOD!

My advise.....
If just building "BOOSTERS" Do something like these:
Smacks - Very Simple and easy to understand - Effective
Archie Blue Style - Simple, easy to understand, and easy to modify with your own ideas.- (Also My Favorite) - Effective to Very Effective
Shigeta Hasebe Style (Spiral Plates) - Mid Range Difficulty to build, Easy to understand, Lots of Plate Area in small size - Very Effective
(Dont confuse with "Wasabe" Cell Design [useless])

Keep in mind you can modify the ones listed above to basically and configuration you need to fit the area you wish to install them. Also keep in mind these have been just MY EXPERIENCES! Others may feel different, but I would imagine the More Experienced Builders and Experimenters will Agree!:thumbsup: You are in a Profession that Im almost certain you are familiar with the "KISS" Theory! :D

Hope That Helps!
:cheers:

amigo
04-27-2008, 04:57 PM
You might want to check out Dr.Ron Stiffler's SEC:

Stiffler Scientific (http://www.stifflerscientific.com/)

He had a google group for his H2O SEC experiments made as well, but ideally first check out the thread on overunity.com regarding the circuit. Doc had posted some tests of HHO electrolysis with the SEC...not sure where the H2O stuff starts, perhaps after page 30?

Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3457.0;topicseen)

Redmeanie
04-27-2008, 05:09 PM
You might want to check out Dr.Ron Stiffler's SEC:

Stiffler Scientific (http://www.stifflerscientific.com/)

He had a google group for his H2O SEC experiments made as well, but ideally first check out the thread on overunity.com regarding the circuit. Doc had posted some tests of HHO electrolysis with the SEC...not sure where the H2O stuff starts, perhaps after page 30?

Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3457.0;topicseen)

Pretty good documentation....I have had some decent results with using Course Stainless All Thread....I guess you could say that is similar to what he is doing...My only problem with using Carbon Rods, Anyone looking to build just a "BOOSTER" needs to be looking into readily available, and reasonably cost effective materials.....

I wonder how long those Carbon Rods Last?

:cheers:

TuxAir
04-27-2008, 05:33 PM
Thanks for the information. I will look at the others in more detail. Info noted on the Archie Blue style. It is what is up on the drawing board at the moment. I also finished testing my 3 cars available alternator reserve output and know what I can comfortably run max amps at. I was using a little math, current meters and factored in a nice conservative cushion for safety. An interesting note... The older the vehicle, the less current the car uses at max loading. At least on my vehicles. This is everything on full tilt, Heaters, fans, AC, defrost, windows, seat heaters etc. I enlisted the aid of my two children in these tests. Child labor rocks! :D

The results I have come up with for max current to electrolyzer are as follows:
95 GMC truck : 26 A / ~350W
06 Toyota 4Runner: 22A / ~300W
08 VW Jetta: 18.5A / ~250W

Again, these figures factor in a conservative safety cushion of ~15% alternator output.

@ RedMeanie... you are correct.. KISS is the best and works best with tribal knowledge in my profession. :) I just wish the French would grasp that concept with their Airbus Airplanes %). And those Airbusses keep my 401K happy :)

Redmeanie
04-27-2008, 05:53 PM
Thanks for the information. I will look at the others in more detail. Info noted on the Archie Blue style. It is what is up on the drawing board at the moment. I also finished testing my 3 cars available alternator reserve output and know what I can comfortably run max amps at. I was using a little math, current meters and factored in a nice conservative cushion for safety. An interesting note... The older the vehicle, the less current the car uses at max loading. At least on my vehicles. This is everything on full tilt, Heaters, fans, AC, defrost, windows, seat heaters etc. I enlisted the aid of my two children in these tests. Child labor rocks! :D

The results I have come up with for max current to electrolyzer are as follows:
95 GMC truck : 26 A / ~350W
06 Toyota 4Runner: 22A / ~300W
08 VW Jetta: 18.5A / ~250W

Again, these figures factor in a conservative safety cushion of ~15% alternator output.

@ RedMeanie... you are correct.. KISS is the best and works best with tribal knowledge in my profession. :) I just wish the French would grasp that concept with their Airbus Airplanes %). And those Airbusses keep my 401K happy :)

Tux,
Keep in mind if you are running a Pulse Width Modulated Current through the cell it will be allot less of a Total Load on the Electrical System of the Vehicle... It will prevent Run Away Current Draw and Help Slow the Heating of the Electrolyte....I HIGHLY Recommend this route over Brute Force Direct Current....I have found it also helps the Bubbles break from the surface of your plates because the pulses give a momentary opportunity for them to break free....

:cheers:

TuxAir
04-27-2008, 06:05 PM
Once I saw your board design, I added that little bonus. However... As a mechanic I can be a little anal at times and I "JUST HAD" to check available power. :) Thank you & kind regards!

jimmydean
04-28-2008, 02:41 PM
I can't wait to see what your results are with the 4Runner. I have an '05 that I am wanting to convert. Good Luck!

ashtweth
04-29-2008, 09:07 AM
Guys check out these weird effects with Double helix
"spiral" HHO designs. Ps great nfo source in here wsil document it for all.

YouTube - HHO double helix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhrnj8kO3DQ&NR=1)
HHO test4 - New cell in action
YouTube - HHO test4 - New cell in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhfukwv6IW0)
Hydroxy Ver 2.1 DNA Double Helix
YouTube - Hydroxy Ver 2.1 DNA Double Helix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hv1rrHH-Oc&NR=1)

That Fordenergy guy did have several other worthwhile posted videos
here's his page :
YouTube - Fordenergy's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/Fordenergy)

Fordenergy posted this well produced video from some Swiss dude :
HHO SWISS INOX 4 SPIRAL CELL + GAS PRODUCTION TESTS
YouTube - HHO SWISS INOX 4 SPIRAL CELL + GAS PRODUCTION TESTS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL90PDiceQ8)

Ash

jimmydean
04-29-2008, 06:10 PM
Ash. Those videos rocked man, thanks for posting. Magnetic bubbles? That was trippy!

TuxAir
04-29-2008, 11:19 PM
Ashtweth,
I have seen those videos. However I was unable to find good documentation on them. I got the basic idea on how he made them, but information such as output and real life application is pretty sparse. At least for me. They do look nice though. :)

Aaron
04-30-2008, 05:21 AM
If you have any power supply wires running into a cell from the top, you will see as the bubbles come up, they are attracted to the magnetic field around the wires. The bubbles move rapidly and accumulate around the wires.

Also, read Meyer's first patent...its Canadian.

Also, Xogen was talking about using magnetic fields to alter the gas.

H & O can also be recombined and magnetically bonded together.
Directory:MagneGas - PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:MagneGas)