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Karl_Palsness
12-22-2007, 06:27 AM
Hi everyone.

A friend of mine gave me the link to this Vid…I actually met a man in the USA that also was doing work on the exact same thing a few years ago. I did not understand totally how it worked but I did see that it worked. I was very impressed and would really like to know how they wire the motor up to do this. I saw the machine run on milliamps instead of many amps. I also tested the power factor and it was not affected.

RV (RotoVerter) demo (http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=3223602109300684830)

They call it the “Roto Verter”

This is a demonstration of Panacea's Roto Verter device (motor / generator coupling version) in an apartment in Brisbane, Australia.

By clipping the peaks of the wave form using neon switching or diode plug techniques, it may be possible to extract the resonant / excess power shown on the alternator such as replicated by an open source engineer in France.

The neon switch circuits are near completion for this setup.

More information including the circuit diagrams are available at

Home Page (http://www.panacea-bocaf.org)

There is also some other links on the site for more vids about the same thing.

I did not find the circuit diagrams yet on there web page…it is berried some where in there webpage and I have not found it yet.

Enjoy

gyula
12-22-2007, 11:44 AM
Hi Karl,

Here is a link to further info on rotoverter circuits:
Practical Guide to Free-Energy Devices (http://www.panaceauniversity.org/) and click on the D2.pdf file under the red text. Inside this pdf file it starts from the bottom of page 19 and onwards.

To understand the claims on this method, You are supposed to know AC circuit theory on reactive power (VAR) that circulates in motor or generator coils which are made to be resonant tank circuits with the so called run capacitor(s). And then you have to find ways to utilize this reactive power, the principle is shown on page 28 and further LOAD SPECIFIC variants on pages 25 or 27 and so on. You always have to match the load to the rotoverter setup to utilize the advantage in resonant circuits and in case you have a changing load you must find means to compensate detuning effects.

Regards
Gyula

Chip Shorter
01-13-2008, 01:57 AM
There is a Device out there that's called a PhaseAble Enabler you can purchase that does the Capacitance switching automatically. It was invented by Dr. Otto Smith and looks very similar to the Rotoverter and is used to run cheaper 3 phase motors off single phase mains effeciently. He has a website: World's Most Efficient and Largest Single-Phase Motor invented by Dr. Otto J. M. Smith (http://www.phaseable.com/)

The rotoverter was the idea of Hector Torres and couples (2) 7.5 Hp Baldor motors one so called a Prime Mover and another wired as an alternator. In the rotoverter the 3 phase motor either a 9 lead 230/460 or 12 lead 230/460/575 is wired for single phase 120 and is started by putting a large capacitance across the remainder legs wired in Delta until the motor comes up to speed and then it is switched to a smaller run cap. Hector made his work open source so you can view what he did to those motors.
In either case the motor is made much more effecient by reducing the rotating magnetic field or so I have read. As for energy COP>1 recovery the circuits I looked at employ putting the alternator in resonance and extracting the excess. The popularity of these is enormous because all you need is off the shelf parts to make it happen. As for tapping the resonance for COP>1 I can think of a cheaper way to do that and not involve big baldor motors and start caps.
But alas the circuit does improve the effeciency of the motor over normal three phase and single phase motors this it does. I'm keeping an eye on it myself.

theremart
01-14-2008, 02:20 AM
There is a Device out there that's called a PhaseAble Enabler you can purchase that does the Capacitance switching automatically. It was invented by Dr. Otto Smith and looks very similar to the Rotoverter and is used to run cheaper 3 phase motors off single phase mains effeciently. He has a website: World's Most Efficient and Largest Single-Phase Motor invented by Dr. Otto J. M. Smith (http://www.phaseable.com/)

The rotoverter was the idea of Hector Torres and couples (2) 7.5 Hp Baldor motors one so called a Prime Mover and another wired as an alternator. In the rotoverter the 3 phase motor either a 9 lead 230/460 or 12 lead 230/460/575 is wired for single phase 120 and is started by putting a large capacitance across the remainder legs wired in Delta until the motor comes up to speed and then it is switched to a smaller run cap. Hector made his work open source so you can view what he did to those motors.
In either case the motor is made much more effecient by reducing the rotating magnetic field or so I have read. As for energy COP>1 recovery the circuits I looked at employ putting the alternator in resonance and extracting the excess. The popularity of these is enormous because all you need is off the shelf parts to make it happen. As for tapping the resonance for COP>1 I can think of a cheaper way to do that and not involve big baldor motors and start caps.
But alas the circuit does improve the effeciency of the motor over normal three phase and single phase motors this it does. I'm keeping an eye on it myself.

I have recently got a FREE 3 phase motor that is part of a 1/2 ton hoist. So, I am VERY interested in doing this ( have very little to loose on this )

I am wondering who else has done this?

Eager to find out what off the shelf parts I need...

Mart ( will be looking at the web sites mentioned ).:thumbsup:

theremart
01-15-2008, 01:25 PM
I don't know if this is a good idea or not, will need input.

I have this free motor that was given to me would like to know if it would be better to scrap it or to convert it to be a rotoverter. ( see attached) I am not sure if it is too old to be considered.

thanks for input.

Karl_Palsness
01-15-2008, 04:43 PM
I am no expert, but I think that as long as it is an induction motor you are fine. They have not changed the design in along time of electric motors.


Karl

theremart
01-15-2008, 05:40 PM
I am no expert, but I think that as long as it is an induction motor you are fine. They have not changed the design in along time of electric motors.


Karl

I have been reading up on it and it seems they recommend certain types of motors.

I am puzzled to know how to wire this I am thinking of getting the two capacitors it requires and trying it.

Part of this is I am going to find a resistor that will help me short these caps, they are to risky to leave with that much voltage on them. I am thinking, I don't have much to loose on this motor, my worst thing I am loosing is time, but I feel I will be gaining experience. Here is a golden opportunity to try something on something I am not afraid to mess up.

theremart
01-31-2008, 09:52 PM
I have purchased today a Baldor motor 5 hp. After it comes in, and I clean and lube the bearings, I will attempt to add the capacitors and make this a RV.

I am glad I scrapped the old motor, it was a dead end, this is per spec, and should fill the bill nicely. ( All I need now is Peters rotor and should be set ):thumbsup:

ashtweth
02-01-2008, 07:49 AM
Hi., you need DUAL winding motors, Ie-230/460 Volts
I recommend the 60 hertz double coiled motors of 7.5HP

Also a frequency drive inverter, if oyu really wanted to get the ultimate RV you would make a permanent magnet Rotor, this eliminates the slip, but the flux drag is tricky, please check out the new videos and comps on this page
Roto Verter (http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/rotoverter.htm)

Solace
02-04-2008, 10:34 PM
This motor appears to be working by the same principle as the Roto Verter.

Self Running 900 Watt Fuelless Electrical Generator (http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=2650242262168838984&q=free+energy&total=5428&start=0&num=100&so=1&type=search&plindex=1)

More Roto-Verter videos:

Rotoverter Energy saving method (http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=8060034688864982719)

rotoverter - Google Video (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=rotoverter&sitesearch=)

Roto-Verter Peswicki link:

Directory:Rotoverter - PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter)

theremart
02-05-2008, 07:01 PM
This motor appears to be working by the same principle as the Roto Verter.

Self Running 900 Watt Fuelless Electrical Generator (http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=2650242262168838984&q=free+energy&total=5428&start=0&num=100&so=1&type=search&plindex=1)
PESWiki[/url]

I did not like the email I got back from these guys -->

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Sir!


Thank you for your interest in our new energy technologies!

We see you have Questions, We have answers.

We are WORLD IMPROVEMENT THROUGH THE SPIRIT MINISTRIES, WITTS.

Our Director is Sir Timothy Thrapp. You can do a google search on him. He is World Renown Scientist and Minister and Engineer.

We here at WITTS Ministries have produced demonstrations of electrical power, in excess of 20 Mega Watts!

THIS IS NOT A JOKE, OR A PRANK!

We are sincere and honest and plain Christian people.


We can answer all your questions by phone consultation.

Suggested donation is 100 dollars per hour.

PLEASE NOTE: ONE HOUR MINIMUM!


Send Donations by to; WITTS
PO Box 293
Holmesvile, Ohio 44691


Donations are tax deductible.

Or send donations, by pay pal to our treasurer John Miller, Wits2011@ yahoo.com

In addition to energy technologies, we also have developed solutions to all types of pollution.

We have developed transportation systems that can travel at fantastic speeds and runs on solar panels, or our own advanced energy systems. No wings needed, also no propellers or jet engines.

We are looking for people who want to help move these things forward! If you are such a person, DO NOT EMAIL US! Until after you have made a donation to our cause!

This will avoid us being inundated with junk emails.

THANK YOU!

AND GOD BLESS YOU!


Mart
YouTube - Self Running 900 Watt Fuelless Electrical Generator (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=JYmrQ8q0F98)


Is this just a RotoVerter that you have done?

I am very interested in replicating this.



Thanks!

theremart
02-05-2008, 07:04 PM
Baldor Motor 5 HP arrived.

Next will clean and relub the bearings with carb cleaner... Once I figure out how to get to the bearings...

Then will order the caps needed to move to the converting the prime mover.

exciting. :)

Solace
02-05-2008, 11:41 PM
TheReMart,

Yeah, I got the same reply email. My understanding of donations is that they are voluntary. What this guy is asking for is not a donation but a fee. For all I know, his whole video is completely bogus. Not very well done at all.

He should look up the word "donation" in the dictionary.

On the topic of Roto-Verters. I got a much warmer reply from Panacea.org.
I have a few Baldor motors to experiment on. I am still looking over the info on the Peswicki link.

It is not very complicated. I wonder why this isn't common knowledge in industrial mills. They could save a lot of wasted power by putting this info into practice.

I'm interested in checking out your video. What is the link?

S

theremart
02-06-2008, 12:44 AM
>I'm interested in checking out your video. What is the link?

Here is the link...

YouTube - Learning from working outside the box... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEFlgWuBGn4)

( please excuse the poor audio, I was moving the mic around. )

Solace
02-06-2008, 01:09 AM
Interesting design.

You could easily fix the audio with some dubbing.

I'd like to see what the waveform across the collector looks like.

Seems like it could be spinning faster.

The one at this link seems to be humming right along though.

YouTube - SSG adding a generator Video 18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxu1vP_l_7c&NR=1)

theremart
02-07-2008, 11:58 PM
Interesting design.

You could easily fix the audio with some dubbing.
I'd like to see what the waveform across the collector looks like.
Seems like it could be spinning faster.
The one at this link seems to be humming right along though.

YouTube - SSG adding a generator Video 18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxu1vP_l_7c&NR=1)

Ya.... I was debating between getting a scope, and getting an Rotoverter, the roto-verter won out. I see alot more possibilities if I can get the Rotoverter working.

I switched magents from the first video, and I have been so impressed with the charging rate of the big Neo magnets that I did not mind the slow speed.

Solace
02-08-2008, 12:55 AM
Ya.... I was debating between getting a scope, and getting an Rotoverter, the roto-verter won out. I see alot more possibilities if I can get the Rotoverter working.

I switched magents from the first video, and I have been so impressed with the charging rate of the big Neo magnets that I did not mind the slow speed.


I was getting ready to do an experiment to determine whether or not Neo's would charge the battery better than ceramics.

The guys at one of the Yahoo groups advised against using neo's since the only job of the magnets is for switching. One thing I am noticing though is that the rotor charges better than the solid state version which leads me to believe that the magnets are doing more than just swithching the tranny on and off.

theremart
02-08-2008, 01:08 AM
I was getting ready to do an experiment to determine whether or not Neo's would charge the battery better than ceramics.

The guys at one of the Yahoo groups advised against using neo's since the only job of the magnets is for switching. One thing I am noticing though is that the rotor charges better than the solid state version which leads me to believe that the magnets are doing more than just swithching the tranny on and off.

The trick with Neos I believe is to get the right distance away from them with your coils. You want to get max power from them, but then again you don't want to saturate your coil.

I think also the right size of Neo makes a difference as well. ( as the shape of
the magnetic field would be a factor.

I am finding I am getting more power out of SSG by adding another power coil in series with the primary. You have to position it just right on the wheel, but it has given me much more punch for the same amount of voltage.

I hope that I can get some input from the EVgray group tonight about my choice of capactiors for the RV I do hope to get this motor spinning soon.

Solace
02-08-2008, 06:48 AM
Did you find some oil filled caps?

I should be able to at least get my prime mover working in the next few days as soon as I get time.

I read about the RV/Muller generator. It looks pretty good but I'm not sure why he can't get overunity out it.

theremart
02-10-2008, 04:35 PM
Did you find some oil filled caps?

I should be able to at least get my prime mover working in the next few days as soon as I get time.

I read about the RV/Muller generator. It looks pretty good but I'm not sure why he can't get overunity out it.

Oil caps found, and ordered! HURRAY!

Next I am going to work on getting the box to contain the capacitors, and resistors to bleed the capacitors.

ashtweth
02-15-2008, 02:47 AM
theremart i would consider doing them in a binary cap bank arrangement for easier tuning, here is ours we did.
Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Panacea - PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Panacea)

Ash

theremart
02-16-2008, 02:33 AM
theremart i would consider doing them in a binary cap bank arrangement for easier tuning, here is ours we did.
Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Panacea - PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Panacea)

Ash

Capacitors arrived today. I will start reading the site you listed to know how to hook them up. I am a bit nervous, as these are some hefty caps never worked with this much power before.

Mart:suprise:

ashtweth
02-17-2008, 01:21 PM
Roto verter Neon Test (http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=1131268361504579033&hl=en-AU)
:grindaisy:

theremart
02-22-2008, 07:50 PM
IT runs It RUNS IT RUNS :)

:blowout: :cheers: :dance:

Got it going today, I am so happy I have not taken the vitals yet, like RPM or voltage, but so very happy that I have gotten this far.

Capacitor bank fully operational.

Mart

Jetijs
02-23-2008, 11:34 AM
Those are some great news, mart :thumbsup:
Please keep us updated of your success :notworthy:
Thanks,
Jetijs

theremart
02-23-2008, 10:11 PM
:blowout: :blowout:

YouTube - Double feature. Roto Verter / SSG on steriods (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI7aTaq4stY)

My SSG generator is doing wonderful too.... as you will see.

Next I need to get the rotoverter charging batteries, powering the rotoverter, and many other projects.

the EVAY Gray group on Yahoo has been most helpful, and THANK YOU ASH!!

MART :dance: :sun:

peper10
02-23-2008, 10:28 PM
:angel: Pretty cool to see you happy like that in you're vid!!
Good stuff coming out of you're work so far..
You show us what immagination can lead to and hard working too.
Again,CONGRADULATION !!!!!!:notworthy:


peper10

Aaron
02-23-2008, 11:12 PM
Very cool Mart!

Were those coreless coils above the SSG picking up the charge from spinning rotor?

theremart
02-24-2008, 04:30 AM
Very cool Mart!

Were those coreless coils above the SSG picking up the charge from spinning rotor?

Correct. I have talked with the guys from the auxil Flux group ( windmill gurus ) and most of the use neos and empty cores. Also metal backing for the neos to channel the flux.

I have learned sooooo much on a wild idea to get energy from the SSG mechanical.

Also KTservices gave me the inspiration to keep on, by making his system before me work with his SSG.

ren
02-24-2008, 10:18 AM
Mart I am looking to build a windmill style generator to be powered by the sg. I too noted that Piggot and others have strong neos rotating on both sides of air coils. Cant wait to see how well they go.

Peter Lindemann
02-24-2008, 04:42 PM
:blowout: :blowout:

YouTube - Double feature. Roto Verter / SSG on steriods (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI7aTaq4stY)

My SSG generator is doing wonderful too.... as you will see.

Next I need to get the rotoverter charging batteries, powering the rotoverter, and many other projects.

the EVAY Gray group on Yahoo has been most helpful, and THANK YOU ASH!!

MART :dance: :sun:

Mart,

Good work getting your RotoVerter up and operational! I HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you purchase a "Kill-A-Watt" meter to further your experiments. This meter will allow you to measure the voltage, current, watts, power factor, and volt-amperes reactive going into your RotoVerter. For $35, its an excellent investment. It will increase the total amount of information you have about the running characteristics of your RotoVerter by a factor of 10.

The reason you can't run the RotoVerter from your inverter and batteries is that you cannot overcome the huge "start surge" required to get the motor up to speed. This overloads your inverter. You might need a 1500 Watt inverter to START the motor, even though it is RUNNING on about 230 Watts, once it gets up to speed.

If you have seen my DVD Electric Motor Secrets, I show how to build a Dynamometer and run a mechanical work production test. If you want to really KNOW the efficiency of your RotoVerter, I suggest you build a dynamometer and run a Dyno test while measuring the inputs with the Kill-A-Watt meter. That will tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about the efficiency of your RotoVerter.

Keep up the Great Work!!!

Peter

theremart
02-24-2008, 05:33 PM
Thanks!

I did put a load on it with my hands, but this is no 1 horse power moter :) the spring scales needed to test this would be like out of the struts of my car :)

I was thinking about the following..... It was suggested to me that I should keep the motor running 24/7 instead of fighting the starting of the capacitors then turning them off.

Here is my cooked up idea... create a tank of water underground ( water then would be at 65 Deg. Then with the roto verter cool this water to just above freezing with a compressor and cooling system. I am thinking maybee 40 degrees, in 55 gal barrels buried underground . Then.. with solar power cool this with an compressor cooling system with the roto verter being driven by solar power or wind power or.... Bedini extra battery power. Or Peter's engine with Bedini's circuit charging power. ( I am reallying thinking about reconditioning some forklift batteries for this project )

Next with this cool 40 degree water, run this thru a radiator with a fan forcing this cold air into the room, via a thermostat controlled system, I am thinking like forced air...... basically I just reinvented the heatpump Except I am thinking of cooling the water underground even colder with the rotoverter. I would never shut off the rotoverter but have like a clutch that would engage disengage the roto from compressor.

As for Killa watt, that does sound like a good idea.

My inverter is a 2500 Watt inverter (5000 Watt peak ) !?! So this is starting me to think my batteries that I have are not the best. It is only 80% efficient so.. maybe the amps are not making it to the target. They came as batteries that have been recoverd with the bedini SSG. Which makes me wonder... I am thinking of testing this on my car battery, which I know is good, and has been proven to put out amps.

I am considering running two of my golf cart batteries down to 10 V then putting on another battery that I have that charges only to 4V so this would be the top of the line of what the inverter will accept to run, I tried 17V but it refused to turn on. :(

maybe I need to have only the start cap on when I fire it up? I have had all the caps on when i have been running it to start.

Next project is to get an computer controlled battery swapper. My dream is to be able to at will connect batteries to 6, 12, 24, 36 Volt in combinations and swap them at will with either a Bedini wheel ( which would be self starting, 3 coils with neos ) , rotoverter, Bedini Solid state. I am begging to think the math is telling me if I can run this Rotoverter at %10 of its normally energy, then hooking up a second motor and
getting 70% of its normally energy back out as a generator is reasonable to me. Thus I should have an Extra %55 of energy left to loop the system and put a load on to balance it. (( all in theory ))


If this is the case, then I pay the $500.00 and invest in ceramic bearings for the motors so this system would run 24/7 generating energy that 1. I could charge a forklift sized battery to power my home and my future electric car.
I never leave home, so may just skip the car :) 2. I could convert this energy to cold/heat for my cooling needs then store this for on demand use (sorta like a capacitor for heat or cold ) 3. I could then sell this energy back to the Utility company or use for my own industry per say a bio desiel or alcohol still. I like alcohol because it is less toxic to deal with.... and...... THERE IS ALWAYS DEMAND FOR ALCOHOL:cheers: he he





Mart,

Good work getting your RotoVerter up and operational! I HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you purchase a "Kill-A-Watt" meter to further your experiments. This meter will allow you to measure the voltage, current, watts, power factor, and volt-amperes reactive going into your RotoVerter. For $35, its an excellent investment. It will increase the total amount of information you have about the running characteristics of your RotoVerter by a factor of 10.

The reason you can't run the RotoVerter from your inverter and batteries is that you cannot overcome the huge "start surge" required to get the motor up to speed. This overloads your inverter. You might need a 1500 Watt inverter to START the motor, even though it is RUNNING on about 230 Watts, once it gets up to speed.

If you have seen my DVD Electric Motor Secrets, I show how to build a Dynamometer and run a mechanical work production test. If you want to really KNOW the efficiency of your RotoVerter, I suggest you build a dynamometer and run a Dyno test while measuring the inputs with the Kill-A-Watt meter. That will tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about the efficiency of your RotoVerter.

Keep up the Great Work!!!

Peter

----

jason
02-24-2008, 07:05 PM
Hi Mart,
RV is addictive so use in moderation! You may have to adjust the value of your “start”caps as well to get the lowest start up surge. Make sure your battery is big enough and the leads going to the inverter are big enough.

Konehead has an easy prony brake test to make: http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/measuringshaftpower.html

Good luck,

Jason

theremart
02-24-2008, 11:55 PM
Yes, he is the dude that got me started in this to begin with. ( the owner of that web page ) I noticed that he was in the video with Peter on the EV gray motor. ( another interesting video that Peter has (insert shameless plug here ) ) But he is in the know, and I am only starting to start to see how far ahead of me he is!:cool:

So much cool stuff, so little time, I am addicted to the possiblity of saving energy and have some to spare.

mart:whistle:


Hi Mart,
RV is addictive so use in moderation! You may have to adjust the value of your “start”caps as well to get the lowest start up surge. Make sure your battery is big enough and the leads going to the inverter are big enough.

Konehead has an easy prony brake test to make: http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/measuringshaftpower.html

Good luck,

Jason

jason
02-25-2008, 02:22 AM
After you get a hang of it and want to try something (for energy saveings) you can RV single phase motors as well. My drill press is Rv'd, it has an old 1/3hp motor. Draws about 100 watts (while drilling wood)and no noticable defrence. I don't rember the exact figures but it used to use around 540 watts (no load).


Jason

Peter Lindemann
02-25-2008, 04:34 AM
After you get a hang of it and want to try something (for energy saveings) you can RV single phase motors as well. My drill press is Rv'd, it has an old 1/3hp motor. Draws about 100 watts (while drilling wood)and no noticable defrence. I don't rember the exact figures but it used to use around 540 watts (no load).


Jason

Jason,

Placing the correct capacitor in parallel with the windings of an induction motor is NOT something that was invented by Hector! This has been standard practice in the industry for over 100 years. It's called Power Factor Correction. This is why I suggested Mart purchase the proper meter so he could see all of these things.

I don't wish to throw cold water on the RotoVerter, but the technique is really NOTHING more than Power Factor Correction combined with a method to run a 3-phase motor on single phase power. ANY induction motor REQUIRES a certain amount of REACTIVE POWER to run properly. When you purchase this reactive power from the utility, it costs a lot. It is just as easy to PRODUCE your own reactive power LOCALLY with a capacitor in parallel with the windings. This saves a lot of money and lowers the total amount of power purchased from the utility to run the motor. This is the savings you experience.

Peter

jason
02-25-2008, 06:00 AM
Peter,
I don't think I see the cold water. When you use DC into an inverter you take power factor out. Measure DC volts and DC amps in, no power factor to correct? I have done many tests with small and large motors. A few caps and people can save money. It's simple stuff and you can use un-modified off the shelf parts.


I don't think anyone has claimed putting caps on motor windings was invented by Hector. He did disclose the Roto Verter which is much more then a motor with a few caps to get a 3 phase to run on single phase. I don't think it is an RV until the motor is properly tunned.

Jason

jason
02-25-2008, 06:06 AM
Peter,
Placing the proper cap parallel to the line in on a single phase motor is not really an “RV” conversion. To Rv a small motor you need to lower the voltage in by approx. ¼ of the motor rating, then tune with capacitance.

Jason

Peter Lindemann
02-25-2008, 06:06 PM
Peter,
Placing the proper cap parallel to the line in on a single phase motor is not really an “RV” conversion. To Rv a small motor you need to lower the voltage in by approx. ¼ of the motor rating, then tune with capacitance.

Jason

Jason,

YES!!! Induction motors operate by locking the rotor to the rotating magnetic field of the stator. Most loads do not require the magnetic field to be at full strength to achieve the desired mechanical power output. Lowering the input voltage to the motor with a Variac is a simple test anyone can do to prove this principle. Most drill press motors will run quite well on 60 volts input. Cutting the Voltage in half also cuts the current in half, which cuts the Power input by 75%! Once the motor is Power Factor Corrected for this voltage, the motor will appear to run on NEARLY NOTHING!!!! And of course, that is the point.:thumbsup:

I applaud Hector for encouraging people to run these experiments, but the RotoVerter is an EFFICIENCY technique, not an OU technique. The Reactive Power circulating in the LC tank circuits can be converted to Real Power, using methods discovered by Tesla, but that is another matter entirely.

When you run these systems on Inverters from batteries, other factors come into play. Most inexpensive inverters produce a wave form called a "Modified Sine Wave". This is actually a 50% duty cycle square wave that rises to the true RMS voltage of the system, which is 160 Volts for a 120 Volts AC system. The LC reaction to this is similar to being supplied with sine waves, but not exactly the same. The loading on the supply side is pretty intense on the inverter and the batteries, as it draws large surges followed by null times, especially on start up to charge all the capacitors. You need some expensive equipment to see all of these things happening, like a current probe on a digital oscilloscope.

Anytime you can run a piece of equipment with an 80% energy savings, its worth doing, and these techniques CAN DO THAT!!!!

Calling it "RVing" a motor is a little misleading, however. That's my personal opinion.

Teach as many people about these things as will listen, and keep up the great work.

Peter

ashtweth
02-26-2008, 12:32 AM
Hi Guys on the surface the RV looks like what Peter described and he is right to a degree, how ever the concept is more use of impedance matching and frequency adjusting. The concept of the RV is not just power factor correction or the Steinmetz circuit.

With the RV we do the same as the Steinmetz circuit., except for ONE MAJOR DIFFERENCE, it is run at 1/4 rated voltage which makes the huge difference of correct impedance match,broad banding, magnetic amplification, rotary effect, etc. In addition we do tuning to PF=1 in RV, and PF=0 in alternator. The end results are not like a Steinmetz circuit.

We do a good job so far of explaining this in the compilations,
Roto Verter (http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/rotoverter.htm)

it's very clear in there.;) There are experiments we have done which are based on more then just PF ;). But I think we need to do a better explanation and video as we have given Peter and prob others the wrong idea.We have a new video coming which will clear all this up.

regards
Ash

Peter Lindemann
02-26-2008, 06:35 AM
Hi Guys on the surface the RV looks like what Peter described and he is right to a degree, how ever the concept is more use of impedance matching and frequency adjusting. The concept of the RV is not just power factor correction or the Steinmetz circuit.

With the RV we do the same as the Steinmetz circuit., except for ONE MAJOR DIFFERENCE, it is run at 1/4 rated voltage which makes the huge difference of correct impedance match,broad banding, magnetic amplification, rotary effect, etc. In addition we do tuning to PF=1 in RV, and PF=0 in alternator. The end results are not like a Steinmetz circuit.

We do a good job so far of explaining this in the compilations,
Roto Verter (http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/rotoverter.htm)

it's very clear in there.;) There are experiments we have done which are based on more then just PF ;). But I think we need to do a better explanation and video as we have given Peter and prob others the wrong idea.We have a new video coming which will clear all this up.

regards
Ash

Ash,

Do please excuse me, but what does "broad banding", "magnetic amplification" and "rotary effect" mean in relation to running induction motors? In my world, these are just JARGON terms, that mean nothing! If you want these terms to mean something, then you MUST define these terms for the rest of us!

If there is more to the RV than Power Factor Correction, then I am interested in learning about it. So far, I have seen NO EVIDENCE to support this idea.

Lowering the input voltage AND Power Factor Correcting are still ordinary methods that have been around for 100 years. PFC increases the efficiency of the motor. Lowering the input voltage does not increase the efficiency of the motor, but it will make the motor run COOLER.

What am I missing here, Ash?

Peter

jason
02-26-2008, 07:49 AM
Peter,

"If there is more to the RV than Power Factor Correction, then I am interested in learning about it"
Here is a start: http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RE-OU-v6_1.pdf

"If there is more to the RV than Power Factor Correction, then I am interested in learning about it. So far, I have seen NO EVIDENCE to support this idea."

So do like the rest of us and read a little and BUILD IT. I am sure David's neon charger would be no problem for you. Have you seen Brains looped Lawn mower? How about Kones OU Prony test? How about my OU prony test? Have you read about Norman's OU test? Transverter?

"The Reactive Power circulating in the LC tank circuits can be converted to Real Power, using methods discovered by Tesla, but that is another matter entirely."

So, by your own words you think there might be something more then PFC but the you say there is not, which is it?

"Anytime you can run a piece of equipment with an 80% energy savings, its worth doing, and these techniques CAN DO THAT!!!!"

If it's worth doing, have you tried it?


"JARGON terms" yes they seem to be for most people. You can start learn what they mean here: http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RE-OU-v6_1.pdf

Rv is simple to try, hard to understand. Tricky to get OU. Not imposible. Some motors can have OU with PM alone, others need an alternator or PM rotor.

Jason

Aaron
02-26-2008, 09:26 AM
Please keep this forum civilized :thumbsup:

I started reading the document...I do not believe radiant is RF, but the RF may be an effect or symptom of the presence Radiant potential but is not the radiant itself. Anyway, that is my opinion and I'm only 5 pages into it.

Anyway, it is late and I'll continue reading later.

Peter Lindemann
02-26-2008, 05:08 PM
Peter,

"If there is more to the RV than Power Factor Correction, then I am interested in learning about it"
Here is a start: http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RE-OU-v6_1.pdf

"If there is more to the RV than Power Factor Correction, then I am interested in learning about it. So far, I have seen NO EVIDENCE to support this idea."

So do like the rest of us and read a little and BUILD IT. I am sure David's neon charger would be no problem for you. Have you seen Brains looped Lawn mower? How about Kones OU Prony test? How about my OU prony test? Have you read about Norman's OU test? Transverter?

"The Reactive Power circulating in the LC tank circuits can be converted to Real Power, using methods discovered by Tesla, but that is another matter entirely."

So, by your own words you think there might be something more then PFC but the you say there is not, which is it?

"Anytime you can run a piece of equipment with an 80% energy savings, its worth doing, and these techniques CAN DO THAT!!!!"

If it's worth doing, have you tried it?


"JARGON terms" yes they seem to be for most people. You can start learn what they mean here: http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RE-OU-v6_1.pdf

Rv is simple to try, hard to understand. Tricky to get OU. Not imposible. Some motors can have OU with PM alone, others need an alternator or PM rotor.

Jason

Jason,

Thanks for the link. I have seen this paper before, but it was good to see it again. In my OPINION, this paper represents what is WRONG with the entire RV project, as I understand it. The author has simply "cut and pasted" text from various sources, without attribution to the real authors, and spun a yarn of Biblical Proportion! A simple case in point is found in section 2.2 on Page 4. This text is lifted VERBATUM from MY WEBSITE, with the addition of the paragraph about Hector. I see no footnotes, here! So, I know who wrote most of that section. I see other paragraphs with huge sections lifted from Tom Bearden's work, as well.

If you have seen my DVD Tesla's Radiant Energy, I quote Tesla as saying that RE is Longitudinal Waves of compressed ELECTRO-STATIC potential. To equate this with RF (radio frequency transverse electromagnetic waves) is historically inaccurate.

I do not wish to put too fine a point on this, but Dan Combine ("author" of this paper) has no idea what he is talking about.

Tell you what. I am going to bow out of this thread and let you guys move on with your experiments. There IS a lot to learn in this field and I only want to encourage that learning. I do not want to be a focus of dissent.

Best wishes,

Peter

theremart
02-26-2008, 05:52 PM
Ok, now I have a RV, I am thinking next step. I guess that would be to get this RV working from my batteries.

Just to double check things, here is my start caps ( I have 3 of them ) hooked up in parallel..

64-77 MFD 220 VAC START CAPACITOR

Surplus Center Item Detail (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008022611235793&item=22-1205)

Again the way I started it, is I had all the capacitors on, then pluged into directly the motor....

I am wondering should I have another switch past the capacitors so I could first charge the capacitors, then flip the switch on to the motor...

jason
02-26-2008, 10:41 PM
Thermart,
Try to find the lowest start up draw by adding or subtracting your start capacitance. If you decade box is wired like most I have seen, your run caps will add to the start capacitance. Start capacitance is not that crucial as far as tunning but too much or too little and you will have a much larger and longer start up draw.

When you do a prony test try to tune the capacitance to the lowest draw. I think Kone just did it without re tunning and he had more mechanical HP out then power in. I had to tune mine. I was latter able to get better results then what I have posted on forums.

I think a 5hp motor will be less then 2.5 hp. Ash would know for sure.

Jason

theremart
02-27-2008, 02:43 AM
Thermart,
Try to find the lowest start up draw by adding or subtracting your start capacitance. If you decade box is wired like most I have seen, your run caps will add to the start capacitance. Start capacitance is not that crucial as far as tunning but too much or too little and you will have a much larger and longer start up draw.

When you do a prony test try to tune the capacitance to the lowest draw. I think Kone just did it without re tunning and he had more mechanical HP out then power in. I had to tune mine. I was latter able to get better results then what I have posted on forums.

I think a 5hp motor will be less then 2.5 hp. Ash would know for sure.

Jason

Thanks Jason..

ashtweth
02-27-2008, 03:12 AM
Hi Peter , Aron et all.

Thanks Peter, you have made a very valid point. Sure, dont worry Peter can do no wrong here, and nether can any body, it just comes down to the RV language and practical terms. Unfortunately Hector is not the best at practical terms some times, but does make up in other areas. He is not the easiest person to get a direct answer in the individuals language, but thats only the way he is able to explain things.

He is sort of "ahead",in his thinking and it takes allot of reading of his stuff over and over again to understand it. Sad but true. J is only beginning to grasp it too.

He models his experiments of RF protocol, now RF may not be RE to some, but to H it is and he focus's this thinking and circuit concepts based on how standing waves, wave propagation etc happen and make a comparison with RE's behavior.

Now whilst this may be bad, and or good for some, (Sure i understand Peter), and we would also love to hear about Tesla's methods of extracting reactive power, we were kind of hoping you were gonna hi jack this thread with that:D

We have found the best way to run with this information is to accredit hector and follow his thinking and TEST it, this led to the Neon extraction circuit and the Trans-verter concepts.

Peter is right, and so is H, we really need to get practical language and concepts of the RV/RF/RE comparison and mimic behavior under lab conditions THEN theorize. This then can be formulated into a evidence based fact book and clearer presentation.

Unfortunately We are stuck with this info in the mean time, but get an RV, get a Frequency drive and an extraction circuit and go for the reactive power, doesn't matter if its RF/RE or what ever. I think the theory can come later after the practical applications come through.:cheers:

theremart
03-01-2008, 08:33 PM
Hey master of the RV....

What is the normal horsepower a 5 HP motor put out after being converted to a rotoverter? And how did you measure this, I noticed that Kone's prony brake was for small motors.

Thanks!

ashtweth
03-02-2008, 12:18 AM
No Thank you Mart! there is always some practical application if you use your head (thats what we are here to do) with the RV, most will look at it on the SURFACE. But really the sky is the limit if you apply your self and i see you are doing just that so it doesnt matter if you win or loose.

Ash

theremart
03-02-2008, 12:50 AM
No Thank you Mart! there is always some practical application if you use your head (thats what we are here to do) with the RV, most will look at it on the SURFACE. But really the sky is the limit if you apply your self and i see you are doing just that so it doesnt matter if you win or loose.

Ash

Ok, Mr ash master of the RV,

How much horsepower does a generic 5hp RV put out, in general ?

mart..

esaruoho
03-02-2008, 12:43 PM
I applaud Hector for encouraging people to run these experiments, but the RotoVerter is an EFFICIENCY technique, not an OU technique. The Reactive Power circulating in the LC tank circuits can be converted to Real Power, using methods discovered by Tesla, but that is another matter entirely.

hi peter,
where would one go to find articles where tesla discusses reactive power, and reactive power extraction? i know bedini mentions reactive power, and extracts it, the rotoverter people extract it, some talk of clipping the sinewave, there are quite a few circuits around for this, most of them, for some reason, seem to go with diodes and neon bulbs.. but how did tesla generate reactive power in a circuit (the reactive power tesla bulb f.ex.? has that vanished? or was it just a rumoured claim), and how did he extract it, was it using resonance?
Pepe's Tesla Pages: Nikola Tesla (http://www.tesla.hu/tesla/tesla.htm)
is an excellent resource, but i would trust you to better be able to pinpoint "reactive power converstion to real power methods discovered by tesla." than me doing random searches..
i dont even know if he would have called it reactive power.

help me mr lindemann u r me only hope :beamup:

Peter Lindemann
03-02-2008, 04:46 PM
hi peter,
where would one go to find articles where tesla discusses reactive power, and reactive power extraction? i know bedini mentions reactive power, and extracts it, the rotoverter people extract it, some talk of clipping the sinewave, there are quite a few circuits around for this, most of them, for some reason, seem to go with diodes and neon bulbs.. but how did tesla generate reactive power in a circuit (the reactive power tesla bulb f.ex.? has that vanished? or was it just a rumoured claim), and how did he extract it, was it using resonance?
Pepe's Tesla Pages: Nikola Tesla (http://www.tesla.hu/tesla/tesla.htm)
is an excellent resource, but i would trust you to better be able to pinpoint "reactive power converstion to real power methods discovered by tesla." than me doing random searches..
i dont even know if he would have called it reactive power.

help me mr lindemann u r me only hope :beamup:

Dear Esaruoho,

Technically speaking, this thread is about Hector's RotoVerter, and I said I would stay out of here. So, I didn't say this...

Charles Steinmetz invented the terminology of "power factor" in the early 1900's, so Tesla did not use these terms in his earlier papers. In his landmark Lecture titled: On Light and other High Frequency Phenomena, delivered twice in early 1893, Tesla discusses his "Method of Conversion" and the wonders it makes possible.

I highly recommend you read, study, and think deeply about this Lecture. This link takes you to a .pdf file of this entire Lecture:

http://www.ubnt.ni.ac.yu/tesla/tesla_Predavanja/1893_Light_and_Other_HF_Phenomena(Lecture).pdf

This link takes you to the primary diagram of the Method of Conversion, taken from this Lecture:

http://www.tesla.hu/tesla/articles/18930200/fig01.gif

There are 6 primary methods disclosed in this drawing. The first one, in the bottom left, labeled "Ib" shows an AC generator powering a Capacitor as the load. After the capacitor, there is a spark-gap (circuit controller) and after that, final loads consisting of light bulbs and motors.

You tell me what this is, and how it operates.

Peter

theremart
03-02-2008, 06:51 PM
Ya. sounds like a great subject, even open another thread for that?

So many ideas....

But Ash, how many HP does a 5 HP motor put out? he he I was amazed at the way that horse power was measured in Peter's video. I was taught in High School that 1 horse power was 2,000 lb's pull. ( what a literal horse could pull )

Digging deeper...

History of the term "horsepower"

Horsepower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#Effective_horsepower_.2F_true_horsepowe r_.2F_wheel_horsepower)

The term "horsepower" was coined by James Watt to help market his improved steam engine. He had previously agreed to take royalties of one third of the savings in coal from the older Newcomen steam engines.[8] This royalty scheme did not work with customers who did not have existing steam engines but used horses instead. Watt determined that a horse could turn a mill wheel 144 times in an hour (or 2.4 times a minute). The wheel was 12 feet in radius, therefore the horse travelled 2.4 × 2π × 12 feet in one minute. Watt judged that the horse could pull with a force of 180 pounds (assuming that the measurements of mass were equivalent to measurements of force in pounds-force, which were not well-defined units at the time).


---------------
The things they did not teach us in school :(... But we are learning now! :thumbsup:

I guess the question that comes to my mind is when I am testing my RV motor, how do I know that I am pushing the motor beyond what it can do? Under what conditions would I be doing damage to my motor? If I was to put in 115V , and have this motor to say to LOCK. Would I burn up the windings?
It seems to me when I use a drill and put it over it ability smoke starts to come out of the drill ( drilling with a dull bit ) Would the same be true for the RV, as I should be wary of overloading it, and causing the windings to draw excessive amps and burn up the coils...


Just trying to think ahead for when I put this motor into testing...

mart

ashtweth
03-03-2008, 04:51 AM
Mart, i must have missed that message sorry man.

Okay is it a 5HP 60 hertz RV or 50 hertz? You can expect to get 1/4 of the horse power as you are feeding 1/4 voltage of what its originally rated at. Of cause if you want more HP just put a custom frequency drive on it, you can raise the HP but still preserve the RV efficiency.

Ash

aladinlamp
03-03-2008, 07:57 AM
Do you know any good source for various oil capacitors for the RV?

thanx

theremart
03-03-2008, 12:54 PM
Thanks Ash,

Ok this makes sense to me. What is involved in adding a frequency drive for the RV? Can you give me a web link?

What parts would I need, and how much more power would I get out?

Thanks master of RV :cool:





Mart, i must have missed that message sorry man.

Okay is it a 5HP 60 hertz RV or 50 hertz? You can expect to get 1/4 of the horse power as you are feeding 1/4 voltage of what its originally rated at. Of cause if you want more HP just put a custom frequency drive on it, you can raise the HP but still preserve the RV efficiency.

Ash

theremart
03-05-2008, 03:49 AM
Do you know any good source for various oil capacitors for the RV?

thanx

This is my source...

10 MFD 370 VAC OVAL RUN CAPACITOR
Surplus Center Item Detail (http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008020711275139&item=22-1250&catname=electric)

ashtweth
03-05-2008, 04:00 AM
Okay the Best i know is the Custom 12-24V SG (nothing to do with JB) Frequency drive inverter. You have to make it your self tho :)
Mart drop me an email ill email oyu the file, its in EVGRAY files or RVreplication Files under SG inverter.

Now i suggest you read this energy saving compilation as we have recommended an off the shelf one. Check out Frequency drives in the index, it also has all the info on the torque, prony and HP rating issue.

You know, i would pay 100$ if Peter could prony break the RV, just to get it out of my system and see what figures he could come up with. Its not easy prony breaking an RV tho.

http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/RV%20energy%20saving%20applications%20and%20R%20an d%20D.pdf

theremart
03-05-2008, 04:02 AM
Ok, I took Peter's advice and I bought myself a kill -a watt meter.

What I found really surprized me.

The rotoverter ->

I was able to use only two caps to start the rotoverter but I had to have all the run caps on to do so.


It took about 9.6 to 11.5 Amps to start the motor.

Then after I shut off the start cap it dropped down to 2.46 Amps.
it was turning at 3512 RPM.
257 Watts is what the Kill -a Watt was reporting.
122.0 Volts supply voltage


I then hooked up the meter to my oil heater for a comparison.

It was pulling 12 Amps...


Then my fancy Vitamix blender at full speed 11 Amps.
( normally about 29,000 RPM ) this baby MOOOOOVES :)

----------------------------------------

I have not done the other means of improving performance yet, that is oiling the bearings, removing the fan etc.... But just an update...

Still have not got a battery to start it. I did some testing it stops when it draws 2 amps from source battery. I beleive I am tripping the inverter before it can pull the full amount... The inverter is rated at 2500 W 5000W peak.... I am thinking something is very wrong here I should be getting more out of the batteries than I have... my guess is to point the finger at the inverter.

ashtweth
03-05-2008, 04:08 AM
Mart thanks for the update, check out that comp i posted, remove that Fan and grease those bearings, you will drop that figure almost in HALF. The torque may not seem like much but i have Drilled stainless steal and will show you in my new video.

Ash

Aaron
03-05-2008, 05:10 AM
Hi Mart,

When doing those readings, would you mind posting the power factor readings on the meter too?

theremart
03-05-2008, 01:38 PM
Hi Mart,

When doing those readings, would you mind posting the power factor readings on the meter too?

It was .02 Killowatt if that is what you mean...

I was thinking if only I could find a way to get this motor to produce heat, which seems really doable I would turn off the oil heater. That is why I was so interested in caviation of water.

Aaron
03-05-2008, 07:27 PM
Hi Mart,

If you go through the options on the Kill A Watt meter, there is a power factor reading..should be something like .95 or something like that. If it is measuring the input and the motor is running very efficient, it should be up high like that. 1.0 would be "perfect" like a resistive load for example.

If there is some radiant energy effect on the output where you might have current and no voltage for example (instead of voltage potential without current), you might have a 0.02 PF but I doubt that would be the power factor on the input from the wall.

Peter Lindemann
03-05-2008, 08:35 PM
Ok, I took Peter's advice and I bought myself a kill -a watt meter.

What I found really surprized me.

The rotoverter ->

I was able to use only two caps to start the rotoverter but I had to have all the run caps on to do so.


It took about 9.6 to 11.5 Amps to start the motor.

Then after I shut off the start cap it dropped down to 2.46 Amps.
it was turning at 3512 RPM.
257 Watts is what the Kill -a Watt was reporting.
122.0 Volts supply voltage


I then hooked up the meter to my oil heater for a comparison.

It was pulling 12 Amps...


Then my fancy Vitamix blender at full speed 11 Amps.
( normally about 29,000 RPM ) this baby MOOOOOVES :)

----------------------------------------

I have not done the other means of improving performance yet, that is oiling the bearings, removing the fan etc.... But just an update...

Still have not got a battery to start it. I did some testing it stops when it draws 2 amps from source battery. I beleive I am tripping the inverter before it can pull the full amount... The inverter is rated at 2500 W 5000W peak.... I am thinking something is very wrong here I should be getting more out of the batteries than I have... my guess is to point the finger at the inverter.

Mart,

Yes, that "surprise" is your education moving rapidly in the direction of REALITY!!!!

Your Kill-A-Watt meter is over 99% accurate for all 60 hz, single phase power situations within its 1800 watt capacity. So, the Power Factor readout is there, if you push the right button. It will be a number between 0 (zero) and 1 (one), usually a decimal fraction, like .85 or something, and a little "PF" will show up on the screen.

In fact, the data you posted here says, that the WATTS reading is 257, and your voltage reading is 122 volts @ a current of 2.46 amps. So, the math says this: 122 volts X 2.46 amps = 300.12 VA. Real Watts is 257, so PF equals watts/VA = .85 PF. This should be verified by the meter. If you have to resort to (heaven forbid) reading the DIRECTIONS, we won't think less of you!:rofl:

My preliminary suggestion is that you can still trim up the capacitor system to reduce input power still further. With the meter in the PF mode, keep switching caps in and out until you see a PF reading of .97 or better.

This is the point at which your capacitors are supplying all of the "reactive power" your motor needs, and the grid is supplying all of the "real power" the motor needs. The cost savings in running any electric motor this way, is that you do not ask the GRID to supply you with any reactive power.

Great Work:thumbsup:

Peter

theremart
03-06-2008, 01:39 AM
Now I know what you are refering too.

Today I feel VERY blessed because I got a 1,000 amp battery ( commercial grade for $10.00 ) and at 12V, and RUNS THE RV with zero problem......

Hurray!

Now for what you asked for and more.

To power the inverter and the motor it took:

16 amps to start the motor Then floated 14.0 to 14.5 Amps

Battery starting voltage was 12.6 V

From the Killa watt

112.V

2.56 Amp

262 Watt

PF = .91

It is great that I can start this motor without using Grid powered AC! I can't imagine what a 1,000 Cold Amp batter will look like after it is conditioned on the SSG :)

Peter, I hope reality is good :) I may be getting 1/4 the power but I am thinking this baby sure could turn a generator easy :)

But the bad news to me is that my other batteries don't have much guts to them..... Oh well onward, ...... Ash and Peter, thanks for watching over me :cool: :thanks:

ashtweth
03-06-2008, 02:35 AM
Hi Mart and Peter. The real fun happens when you put a Frequency drive on there. You can raise the Frequency then LOWER the capacitance, Peter will be able to explain why that is needed as its (i think) due to the resistance of the caps and higher frequency.

Then you get more then 1/4HP OUT but your still in .91 PF! mode!

We did a test with this fancy inverter which you can find in the compilation (energy saver) and raised the freq, the RV mode remained the same.

If you have a powerful enough inverter drive, (and didn't melt the slip) you could get close to the rated HP out of that motor you have and still PF correct it to the needs of the load.

Now this fancy inverter is just right for the RV. It has an on board secondary battery that is about 4amps, (which is around what the RV takes when idle)

When un loaded(variable load) it uses the on board bat, When you load the RV it charges from the BEMF. All open sourced and in the comps, if you look for the Frequency Gen VIDEO test on the RV page , you can see the PM DC motor we used in the Freq drive test. We didn't have enough Freq to raise it up to 5,000 RPM to get power out of the PM DC gen, but we are building one for that ATM and will do the hard work for you guys and post.

Now Aaron was asking me about whats the best and recommended and comparisons of comps etc, i will be posting here if Mart lets me the recommended advanced stuff and the most promising, i have to put it all in a compilation for all and will get on to it in the next week.

Aaron we need 98 hours in the day, can you write a book on how to do that next Bro:rolleyes:

theremart
03-06-2008, 01:46 PM
Hi Mart and Peter. The real fun happens when you put a Frequency drive on there. You can raise the Frequency then LOWER the capacitance, Peter will be able to explain why that is needed as its (i think) due to the resistance of the caps and higher frequency.

Then you get more then 1/4HP OUT but your still in .91 PF! mode!

We did a test with this fancy inverter which you can find in the compilation (energy saver) and raised the freq, the RV mode remained the same.

If you have a powerful enough inverter drive, (and didn't melt the slip) you could get close to the rated HP out of that motor you have and still PF correct it to the needs of the load.

Now this fancy inverter is just right for the RV. It has an on board secondary battery that is about 4amps, (which is around what the RV takes when idle)

When un loaded(variable load) it uses the on board bat, When you load the RV it charges from the BEMF. All open sourced and in the comps, if you look for the Frequency Gen VIDEO test on the RV page , you can see the PM DC motor we used in the Freq drive test. We didn't have enough Freq to raise it up to 5,000 RPM to get power out of the PM DC gen, but we are building one for that ATM and will do the hard work for you guys and post.

Now Aaron was asking me about whats the best and recommended and comparisons of comps etc, i will be posting here if Mart lets me the recommended advanced stuff and the most promising, i have to put it all in a compilation for all and will get on to it in the next week.

Aaron we need 98 hours in the day, can you write a book on how to do that next Bro:rolleyes:

I was talking with a friend of mine, he worked at GE motors for years built motors, he was telling me on airplanes they use different frequencies to run the motors there. He was telling me they made higher quality motors for airplaines cause... they just gotta work. Got me to thinking that Hector used to work on aircraft ... wondered if there was a connection. Anyways.. I am very interested in getting a modified inverter.

I was at the local "Harbor Frieght" and I saw a generator there with power outlets, it required only 1500 RPM to generate power, and had two outlets built in. That seemed very tempting to me to simply couple this prime mover to this ready made generator. It was $150.00 if I recall.. oh wait this is the web, let me find it..

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45416)

Well it was something like that... Actually that one is 3600 RPM... very close to what my motor is turning..... Very tempting to me... But the other one only needed 1500 RPM...

Am I crazy, but would this work?

ashtweth
03-07-2008, 02:29 AM
Hi Mart.

There are 3 guys i know of who have that gen and have RV'd a 40HP prime mover (on the EVGRAY group). They are still working on their custom inverters for it (which you will need). I know the principle will work, how? i have tested a DC PM gen on a prime mover and adjusted the Frequency and got more torque for the same energy.

I don't expect the draw figure to remain on there as the original value but i do expect it to remain PF corrected and the most torque for the least energy. What happens under load? you adjust your caps again and get less.


You could probably make your own generator for less Mart, i would look at the Fisher and Paykel ones (re enforce the plastic with steal), and or a PM generator on there which you could probably make for less then that HF genset.

Ash

theremart
03-07-2008, 10:05 PM
Hi Mart.

There are 3 guys i know of who have that gen and have RV'd a 40HP prime mover (on the EVGRAY group). They are still working on their custom inverters for it (which you will need). I know the principle will work, how? i have tested a DC PM gen on a prime mover and adjusted the Frequency and got more torque for the same energy.

I don't expect the draw figure to remain on there as the original value but i do expect it to remain PF corrected and the most torque for the least energy. What happens under load? you adjust your caps again and get less.


You could probably make your own generator for less Mart, i would look at the Fisher and Paykel ones (re enforce the plastic with steal), and or a PM generator on there which you could probably make for less then that HF genset.

Ash

To me it seems simple to loop this ... Start with battery, generator starts then
switch power to generator. Is the output on this generator regulated? Don't know if you played with it directly.

But.. can also see coupling to another motor.. I just am trying to count the cost for best investment. .... I am looking outside at my large air conditioner, thinking man if I only had this motor in that unit for this summer.

Mart

theremart
03-07-2008, 10:15 PM
Ok...

I have 90V AC coming off the caps when I run the motor, i understand I can take that and charge batteries with it with a Bridge rectifier, and a transformer.

Makes me wish I had a HUGE Solid state SSG that I could charge all 8 of my batteries hooked in series.... so I would not have to have an transformer. ( to cut energy loss )

I am wondering if I pull this power off to charge batteries is this going to kill my power to the RV.... hmmm.

Peter Lindemann
03-07-2008, 10:57 PM
To me it seems simple to loop this ... Start with battery, generator starts then
switch power to generator. Is the output on this generator regulated? Don't know if you played with it directly.

But.. can also see coupling to another motor.. I just am trying to count the cost for best investment. .... I am looking outside at my large air conditioner, thinking man if I only had this motor in that unit for this summer.

Mart

Mart,

As for saving money on your air conditioner this summer, you have everything you need. Just plug the air conditioner into your Kill-A-Watt meter, and read the Power Factor reading. The machine has a compressor and a fan motor. Put the right capacitors on each of these systems (inside the unit) until the PF is .98. You'll save a lot of money!

Power Factor Correction is universally applicable to AC induction equipment, not just 3-phase motors like the RV.

Peter

theremart
03-07-2008, 11:43 PM
Mart,

As for saving money on your air conditioner this summer, you have everything you need. Just plug the air conditioner into your Kill-A-Watt meter, and read the Power Factor reading. The machine has a compressor and a fan motor. Put the right capacitors on each of these systems (inside the unit) until the PF is .98. You'll save a lot of money!

Power Factor Correction is universally applicable to AC induction equipment, not just 3-phase motors like the RV.

Peter

Very interesting.... and if I get this down, I could also charge batteries when my AC runs. Might as well recover that energy. I am thinking Solid state SSG so I don't have to worry with a wheel....

Mart

ashtweth
03-08-2008, 12:57 AM
Peter is right as usual :D

We did a video to show this.
Basic RotoVerter demonstration on an air conditioner (http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=7144386774233460918)

theremart
03-08-2008, 02:33 AM
Results after Cleaning bearings and adding duralube oil instead.

Amps 1.07
Volts 123.6
Watts 132
PF .98 to .99PF ( I tunned it a bit )
3509 RPM ( free spinning )


When running on Battery it pulls an average of 3.5 to 4.2 Amp at 12.2V

WOOOOOWW


:cheers: :iloveyou: :dance:

Peter Lindemann
03-08-2008, 05:13 AM
Results after Cleaning bearings and adding duralube oil instead.

Amps 1.07
Volts 123.6
Watts 132
PF .98 to .99PF ( I tunned it a bit )
3509 RPM ( free spinning )


When running on Battery it pulls an average of 3.5 to 4.2 Amp at 12.2V

WOOOOOWW


:cheers: :iloveyou: :dance:

Mart,

Great work. Now you see how little it really takes to run the motor. You see, REALITY isn't bad at all!!:rofl:

Peter

Aaron
03-08-2008, 06:26 AM
Great stuff Mart!

You mentioned an oil heater....I have a forced oil heat unit and the blower motor is one that I want to at least PF correct...and if there is something even more, that is what I'm looking for.

Either way, you mention duralube. Is that the duralube additive? True story...I drove from eastern washington to the coast at the washington and oregon border....and back...had duralube in and found out there was no oil in the car...had drained out and I drove like that for a couple hundred miles...from the last known time I did have oil in...oil filter broke somehow and everything drained out.

The duralube allowed the engine to run without overheating and without oil...just like shown in infomercials.

LONGTERM...it has some microencapsulated chlorine type molecules that will wear down, get out and eat anything that it can...seals, etc... not sure what materials might be there that it can eat on your setup, but bottom line is that stuff is a huge liability. AMSOil has good documentation on the stuff and what it does.

Anyway, vacclaisocryptene is the #1 most advanced (and one of the oldest) oil additives for the closest you can get to friction free oil lubrication as it was designed for the oil and gas production companies to begin with...and they do know what is best. Was a classified war secret for years but has been available commercial for quite some time.

It is something that I deal with because of the documentation behind it. I use it in my cars but I added a few drops of it with a few drops of electric motor oil to drop in my blower motor oil fill caps and it started to run quite a bit smoother and I know that there will never be negative effects from it.

theremart
03-08-2008, 11:29 AM
Mart,

Great work. Now you see how little it really takes to run the motor. You see, REALITY isn't bad at all!!:rofl:

Peter

He He :rofl: Well I thought this would be much much worse than what I made this job to be. I could not get the bearing seals out, I did take the advice of a guy named Jean he simply sprayed the carb cleaner with the bearing standing up and let it drain through the small tiny gaps. I knew something was going right when I spun the bearing and it got faster, and faster. I could not wait till I got the motor back together :)

But I am thinking, I will need to keep adding oil to this on a regular basis if I was to run this 24 hours at a time. To bad there is no duralube grease.. Will have to experiment with different types. I am now going to try some duralube on my bearings in my SSG :) This should be interesting..

theremart
03-08-2008, 11:34 AM
Great stuff Mart!

You mentioned an oil heater....I have a forced oil heat unit and the blower motor is one that I want to at least PF correct...and if there is something even more, that is what I'm looking for.

Either way, you mention duralube. Is that the duralube additive? True story...I drove from eastern washington to the coast at the washington and oregon border....and back...had duralube in and found out there was no oil in the car...had drained out and I drove like that for a couple hundred miles...from the last known time I did have oil in...oil filter broke somehow and everything drained out.

The duralube allowed the engine to run without overheating and without oil...just like shown in infomercials.

LONGTERM...it has some microencapsulated chlorine type molecules that will wear down, get out and eat anything that it can...seals, etc... not sure what materials might be there that it can eat on your setup, but bottom line is that stuff is a huge liability. AMSOil has good documentation on the stuff and what it does.

Anyway, vacclaisocryptene is the #1 most advanced (and one of the oldest) oil additives for the closest you can get to friction free oil lubrication as it was designed for the oil and gas production companies to begin with...and they do know what is best. Was a classified war secret for years but has been available commercial for quite some time.

It is something that I deal with because of the documentation behind it. I use it in my cars but I added a few drops of it with a few drops of electric motor oil to drop in my blower motor oil fill caps and it started to run quite a bit smoother and I know that there will never be negative effects from it.

Thanks for sharing that... Yes it was the duralube additive, it was the only one I could find on the shelf, these oils are hard to find, I looked for excel plus, Krul, could not find them.

Peter Lindemann
03-08-2008, 05:28 PM
He He :rofl: Well I thought this would be much much worse than what I made this job to be. I could not get the bearing seals out, I did take the advice of a guy named Jean he simply sprayed the carb cleaner with the bearing standing up and let it drain through the small tiny gaps. I knew something was going right when I spun the bearing and it got faster, and faster. I could not wait till I got the motor back together :)

But I am thinking, I will need to keep adding oil to this on a regular basis if I was to run this 24 hours at a time. To bad there is no duralube grease.. Will have to experiment with different types. I am now going to try some duralube on my bearings in my SSG :) This should be interesting..

Mart,

When applying Carb Cleaner to a stiff bearing, you want to spray just enough in to loosen it up. When grease sits around for a while, it tends to develop a thin film of material on it that is less slippery. The Carb cleaner can "dissolve" this outer layer so access to the rest of the grease below this layer becomes easier. You don't want to use so much Carb Cleaner that you remove most of the grease, just enough to soften it up. Then you don't have to worry about adding anything else. Also, since most of the grease is still in the bearing, it will redistribute itself properly when the bearing warms up in the first extended run of the motor. After that, (as the Aussie's say) "No problems, Mate!"

To further your understanding of the motor's operation, go to Harbor Freight and pick up a cheap Clamp-On Ammeter. With this, you can independently look at the current circulating in the section of the circuit that goes to the capacitors. Your Kill-A-Watt meter will tell you how many Amps are being drawn from the grid (Real Power), and the Clamp-On Ammeter will tell you how many Amps are circulation in the LC tank (Reactive Power). The combination of Real Power and Reactive Power is what is called Apparent Power, which is what runs the motor. When a motor is NOT Power Factor corrected, you have to buy ALL of the Apparent Power from the grid. When you add the proper capacitors to the circuit, they can provide the proper amount of Reactive Power (VARS) for your motor, and so the only thing the grid needs to supply is the Real Power (WATTS). The motor needs BOTH to run properly. There is no real ENERGY SAVINGS, as the motor is still running on the same amount of Apparent Power. But there is a COST SAVINGS involved in providing all of the necessary Reactive Power yourself.

I know you are in a hurry to run your RV from a battery, but if you slow down, and learn all of these fundamentals first by just running the motor from the grid, you'll make more rapid progress later because you will understand what is happening under "normal" circumstances.

Keep up the great work.

Peter

theremart
03-08-2008, 06:31 PM
Mart,

When applying Carb Cleaner to a stiff bearing, you want to spray just enough in to loosen it up. When grease sits around for a while, it tends to develop a thin film of material on it that is less slippery. The Carb cleaner can "dissolve" this outer layer so access to the rest of the grease below this layer becomes easier. You don't want to use so much Carb Cleaner that you remove most of the grease, just enough to soften it up. Then you don't have to worry about adding anything else. Also, since most of the grease is still in the bearing, it will redistribute itself properly when the bearing warms up in the first extended run of the motor. After that, (as the Aussie's say) "No problems, Mate!"

To further your understanding of the motor's operation, go to Harbor Freight and pick up a cheap Clamp-On Ammeter. With this, you can independently look at the current circulating in the section of the circuit that goes to the capacitors. Your Kill-A-Watt meter will tell you how many Amps are being drawn from the grid (Real Power), and the Clamp-On Ammeter will tell you how many Amps are circulation in the LC tank (Reactive Power). The combination of Real Power and Reactive Power is what is called Apparent Power, which is what runs the motor. When a motor is NOT Power Factor corrected, you have to buy ALL of the Apparent Power from the grid. When you add the proper capacitors to the circuit, they can provide the proper amount of Reactive Power (VARS) for your motor, and so the only thing the grid needs to supply is the Real Power (WATTS). The motor needs BOTH to run properly. There is no real ENERGY SAVINGS, as the motor is still running on the same amount of Apparent Power. But there is a COST SAVINGS involved in providing all of the necessary Reactive Power yourself.

I know you are in a hurry to run your RV from a battery, but if you slow down, and learn all of these fundamentals first by just running the motor from the grid, you'll make more rapid progress later because you will understand what is happening under "normal" circumstances.

Keep up the great work.

Peter

I have an amp meter already and I that is what I was using to measure the amps I am pulling from the primary battery. I am learning that the batteries I thought I had restored are still not preforming up to par. ( will wait to see if the additive I ordered does them any good )

I am already running this RV from a battery :) Next I want it to run itself.

If I am missing any steps please let me know, understand I have a very basic understanding of electronics, and I am slowly getting up to speed.

So far I have taken a 5HP motor stripped it down to a 1 HP motor and tunned it. Capacitors are sorta like the motor having its own fridge so it does not have to goto the store ( grid ) to get power all the time.

So maybee I should let the motor run for 24 hours and see how it does... if there are any changes in the way it runs..

To do what you said, I should be measuring the amps at what part of the circuit, in between the caps? I guess I need a load on the caps maybee my 90 V Neo light? might do it.

Ahh back to programing my Pic to autoswap batteries my basic stamp came in ready to hands on program..

aladinlamp
03-08-2008, 06:55 PM
How much energy is wasted in RV or other motors to overcome air resistance?

Peter Lindemann
03-08-2008, 07:54 PM
I have an amp meter already and I that is what I was using to measure the amps I am pulling from the primary battery. I am learning that the batteries I thought I had restored are still not preforming up to par. ( will wait to see if the additive I ordered does them any good )

I am already running this RV from a battery :) Next I want it to run itself.

If I am missing any steps please let me know, understand I have a very basic understanding of electronics, and I am slowly getting up to speed.

So far I have taken a 5HP motor stripped it down to a 1 HP motor and tunned it. Capacitors are sorta like the motor having its own fridge so it does not have to goto the store ( grid ) to get power all the time.

So maybee I should let the motor run for 24 hours and see how it does... if there are any changes in the way it runs..

To do what you said, I should be measuring the amps at what part of the circuit, in between the caps? I guess I need a load on the caps maybee my 90 V Neo light? might do it.

Ahh back to programing my Pic to autoswap batteries my basic stamp came in ready to hands on program..

Mart,

Slow down. The ideas in your mind are running way ahead of your understanding!! I am NOT talking about adding a load to the electrical circuit anywhere. I am not talking about an Ammeter that is connected directly to the wiring. I am not talking about what is happening to your RV running from the battery and inverter.

FIRST, this machine is NOT going to run itself, no matter what you do! Period. End of story. This motor operates on Faraday's direct INDUCTION principle and is still WASTING 95% of its input electricity to the losses of Back EMF (internally generated reverse voltage in the windings). The RV motor, all by itself, is still an UNDER-UNITY machine. Your activities, so far, have reduced all of the other wasted energy in the motor, including bearing friction and recirculating the Reactive Power locally in your capacitors. However, there is NOTHING you can do to get rid of the internally generated Back EMF. This is an event that is generated INSIDE the motor windings and stays INSIDE the motor windings. It is NOT reflected anywhere outside the motor.

That is what the EMS forum is all about; building a different design of motor that doesn't have this problem in the first place.

Please post the current schematic of your motor as it is configured right now. Show all of the wires exactly as they are hooked up, without any "common ground" nomenclature or any other abbreviations. When you post the schematic, I will tell you where to put the meter.

Go to Harbor Freight and buy a Clamp-On Ammeter: Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=95652)

With this meter you can measure currents in wires that you do not have to disconnect.

I know you are excited, but SLOW means taking deliberate steps, and moving from knowledge to knowledge in each step. SLOW is actually the fastest way that works!!!

Peter

aladinlamp
03-08-2008, 07:58 PM
Is there any european version of kill-a-watt for 50hz - 240V grid?

theremart
03-08-2008, 08:21 PM
Is there any european version of kill-a-watt for 50hz - 240V grid?

Yes I do believe so Ash was doing one in Aussie land where they had 50 hz.

Ash would be the one who can answer that question better.. He is the master of this, or at least the communicator of this device :)

theremart
03-08-2008, 08:47 PM
>Slow down. The ideas in your mind are running way ahead of your >understanding!! I am NOT talking about adding a load to the electrical circuit >anywhere. I am not talking about an Ammeter that is connected directly to >the wiring. I am not talking about what is happening to your RV running from >the battery and inverter.

Yep I own this meter as I was trying to explain to you before, ( sorry I am not the worlds best comunicator I am a geek :)

Digital Snap-Around Volt-Amp Meter with Free 2008 Doctor Watts Shirt-Pocket Electrical Guide - Mfg# DSA-500 (http://www.professionalequipment.com/digital-snap-around-volt-amp-meter-with-free-2005-doctor-watts-shirt-pocket-electrical-guide-dsa-500/electric-meters/)




>FIRST, this machine is NOT going to run itself, no matter what you do! >Period. End of story. This motor operates on Faraday's direct INDUCTION >principle and is still WASTING 95% of its input electricity to the losses of >Back EMF (internally generated reverse voltage in the windings). The RV >motor, all by itself, is still an UNDER-UNITY machine. Your activities, so far, >have reduced all of the other wasted energy in the motor, including bearing >friction and recirculating the Reactive Power locally in your capacitors. >However, there is NOTHING you can do to get rid of the internally generated >Back EMF. This is an event that is generated INSIDE the motor windings and >stays INSIDE the motor windings. It is NOT reflected anywhere outside the >motor.

Ok, my target is to emulate what Hector has done with his looped system, I may be calling it the wrong thing, but I watched his video of his motor running another generator then it was looped to itself. I understand that this motor by itself should not be able to power itself, I am targeting my next steps..


>That is what the EMS forum is all about; building a different design of motor >that doesn't have this problem in the first place.

Yes, I see that, and I have been counting the cost of making my rotor square
verses leaving it the way it is and doing hectors method. Both of you have means of harnessing the energy, and I respect you both, I am just trying to get my brain around both of your methods and see which one will work for me.

To do your method, I was considering buying an small DC motor with tight fittings as you prescribe and making the rotor square and cutting off the coils.

The method I am exploring here is first building the basic Rotoverter

Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Panacea - PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Panacea#Step_by_ Step)

( Prime mover first )

Then moving on to a generator, either this coupled to another motor, ( rewired to be a generator, or a generator proper from harbor frieght )

Then thinking about taking the output from the genertor to feed either the prime mover, or a set of batteries that can be swapped with the prime mover batteries.

Then considering doing Hectors setup...

virtual circulating current with RotoVerter by Hector (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=801636508426910852&q=hector+rotoverter&total=3&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)


>Please post the current schematic of your motor as it is configured right >now. Show all of the wires exactly as they are hooked up, without any >"common ground" nomenclature or any other abbreviations. When you post >the schematic, I will tell you where to put the meter.

This is the link to the schematic setup I have now..

http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/RVcircuit.JPG



>Go to Harbor Freight and buy a Clamp-On Ammeter: >Harbor >Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=95652)

>With this meter you can measure currents in wires that you do not have to >disconnect.

I believe the meter that I have matches this meter, I am right?
Digital Snap-Around Volt-Amp Meter with Free 2008 Doctor Watts Shirt-Pocket Electrical Guide - Mfg# DSA-500 (http://www.professionalequipment.com/digital-snap-around-volt-amp-meter-with-free-2005-doctor-watts-shirt-pocket-electrical-guide-dsa-500/electric-meters/)

>I know you are excited, but SLOW means taking deliberate steps, and moving >from knowledge to knowledge in each step. SLOW is actually the fastest >way that works!!!


Yes, that is why I am looking at all my alternatives for a generator before I invest. I like the harbor freight generator because it has all the circuitry built in with fuses for overload protection. If I use another motor as my generator I will have to build my own circuit to make it work.

The next step from what I hear from Ash may be building a better inverter that can give me more HP out of the motor, and less current.

Peter, I do value your input, and thanks for being patient with a mad scientists as me he he :cheers:

Peter Lindemann
03-08-2008, 11:43 PM
[QUOTE=theremart;17155]>Slow down. The ideas in your mind are running way ahead of your >understanding!! I am NOT talking about adding a load to the electrical circuit >anywhere. I am not talking about an Ammeter that is connected directly to >the wiring. I am not talking about what is happening to your RV running from >the battery and inverter.

Yep I own this meter as I was trying to explain to you before, ( sorry I am not the worlds best comunicator I am a geek :)

Digital Snap-Around Volt-Amp Meter with Free 2008 Doctor Watts Shirt-Pocket Electrical Guide - Mfg# DSA-500 (http://www.professionalequipment.com/digital-snap-around-volt-amp-meter-with-free-2005-doctor-watts-shirt-pocket-electrical-guide-dsa-500/electric-meters/)

The method I am exploring here is first building the basic Rotoverter

Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Panacea - PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Panacea#Step_by_ Step)

Then considering doing Hectors setup...

virtual circulating current with RotoVerter by Hector (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=801636508426910852&q=hector+rotoverter&total=3&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

Mart,

Yes, your Clamp-On meter is just fine. The video of Hector is a perfect example of why I believe what I do. He is showing that the RV motor side is running on 175 WATTS of Real Power, and the generator side is producing 208 volts and 7.6 amps, or 1508 VARS of Reactive Power, measured to and from the Capacitor load on the generator. He refers to this as "circulating current" which is exactly what it is. This film shows ZERO WATTS of Real Power coming out of the generator.

Reactive Power does NOT produce any Back EMF in the generator, so the motor is still operating at, essentially, no load. There is no way (shown here) to use the power from the generator to run the motor. I am not trying to be a "pain in the ass", I am trying to help you form a clear picture in your mind of what is possible and what is not.

We all agree that Ash is the RV Master here. So I ask you, Ash, how many "fully self-running" RV motor/generators have you seen in your life? What am I missing here?

Peter

theremart
03-09-2008, 12:58 AM
This is what I got from Hector for next steps...

I may of misunderstood Hector, as he is hard to follow as he like Tesla has his own way of saying things. I do see what Hector has works, so I will work to understand him.

------------------------

You can try looping the Capacitor phase power back to inverter 12V
side ... (remember Reactive components must be 90 degrees from each
other (series) or in phase with capacitor bridge coupling .

transformer 120VAC primary to 12-12 18.9 0r 24V secundary

diode bridge low voltage secundary to feed DC buss at battery side

with care not overdrive overvoltage inverter to death (burn it)

can try semy resonating other phases as well in tripleflux mode
and feed back power in same way ..

Find more info on LOOPED lawnmower experiments ....
Diode Plug , kone recovery circuits ..

Alternator can also be used or Efficient PM generator (Check Norman
Wootan RV test readings , check Kones Torque RV readings ..

Concentrate on 2 issues , tuning & efficiency .

Hector

esaruoho
03-09-2008, 05:33 PM
[QUOTE=theremart;17155]
Then considering doing Hectors setup...
virtual circulating current with RotoVerter by Hector (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=801636508426910852&q=hector+rotoverter&total=3&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

The video of Hector is a perfect example of why I believe what I do. He is showing that the RV motor side is running on 175 WATTS of Real Power, and the generator side is producing 208 volts and 7.6 amps, or 1508 VARS of Reactive Power, measured to and from the Capacitor load on the generator. He refers to this as "circulating current" which is exactly what it is. This film shows ZERO WATTS of Real Power coming out of the generator.
Peter

peter, could you somehow "draw"what this reactive power looks like? i see all these reactive power recovery circuits being suggested for recovering some of the resonance, the connection between these diode recovery circuits and the bedini sine wave clip ping circuit,
people are doing those fullw ave bridge rectification things, i see sinewaves with only the top or the bottom, out of phase, etc, etc.
but it appears that they are extracting a small amount of the reactive power without stopping the process, i.e., not robbing the motor but skimming off a little bit of the cream.
im seeing a neon peak recovery circuit provided by david kousolides
Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:NeonPeak - PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:NeonPeak)
theres also a hector diode recovery circuit
.. and others. surely there is a method to this mayhem, a connection between bedini's reactive power recovery circuits and another viewpoint from the RV by extracting resonance or reactive power or what it is.

it appears to this musician that they aren't necessarily only using the motors to run, but instead to extract the reactive power and the resonance and the tuning. i'ev seen this mentioned, peripherally, in a few other inventions, but it appears to go into tech build jargon very quickly. ive not yet seen a layman explanation of the "resonance clipping" or "reactive power recovery", but i know its coming, it has to be. too many people are moving on from merely getting energy savings from these contraptions.

i saw this on a little page on the "resonant power extraction circuit", it starts with:
" Power Extraction from Resonance - Sometimes we need the circuits to extract power from resonance or virtual reactive power circulation. Sometimes just to limit the voltage growth in a BEMF collection capacitor. "
"Hector's claims that the resonance holds the radiant energy circulation - where we can extract a large portion of it without stopping the resonance.
(Quote) A simple LC has a DECAY value in time; the only energy you need to supply is the one lost to decay, as if the system source were a negative inductor to LC (as in the case of RV alternator). Normal entropy decay is 0.618 of 1.618 as logarithmic time receding signal (search for Seike work in ultra-relativity concepts), so the gain is also in atropic system of 1.618 where frequency increase in octaves may increase amplification by a factor of 3.141592 where the spiral resonant circular projection can be expressed in a 12,000 4d polygon structure (as similar to double helix DNA structure - reason human system is OU by all definitions). Remember LOGARITHMIC SPIRALS ORBITAL DECAY PATH IS RELATIVE to gravity as SIGNAL DECAY OR GAIN IS RELATIVE TO LC Q and parameters in a working ZPE system.

It can be done either way, using a reactance to charge a cap, or discharge a cap in a reactive circuit; the resonant condition creates a logarithmic path where VAR power is created and carries a magnetic amplification component with it.
(End quote)"

please could you, well, erm, be the voice of reason, and react? :)

Peter Lindemann
03-09-2008, 07:23 PM
[QUOTE=Peter Lindemann;17173]

peter, could you somehow "draw"what this reactive power looks like? i see all these reactive power recovery circuits being suggested for recovering some of the resonance, the connection between these diode recovery circuits and the bedini sine wave clip ping circuit,
people are doing those fullw ave bridge rectification things, i see sinewaves with only the top or the bottom, out of phase, etc, etc.
but it appears that they are extracting a small amount of the reactive power without stopping the process, i.e., not robbing the motor but skimming off a little bit of the cream.
im seeing a neon peak recovery circuit provided by david kousolides
Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:NeonPeak - PESWiki (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:NeonPeak)
theres also a hector diode recovery circuit
.. and others. surely there is a method to this mayhem, a connection between bedini's reactive power recovery circuits and another viewpoint from the RV by extracting resonance or reactive power or what it is.

it appears to this musician that they aren't necessarily only using the motors to run, but instead to extract the reactive power and the resonance and the tuning. i'ev seen this mentioned, peripherally, in a few other inventions, but it appears to go into tech build jargon very quickly. ive not yet seen a layman explanation of the "resonance clipping" or "reactive power recovery", but i know its coming, it has to be. too many people are moving on from merely getting energy savings from these contraptions.

i saw this on a little page on the "resonant power extraction circuit", it starts with:
" Power Extraction from Resonance - Sometimes we need the circuits to extract power from resonance or virtual reactive power circulation. Sometimes just to limit the voltage growth in a BEMF collection capacitor. "
"Hector's claims that the resonance holds the radiant energy circulation - where we can extract a large portion of it without stopping the resonance.
(Quote) A simple LC has a DECAY value in time; the only energy you need to supply is the one lost to decay, as if the system source were a negative inductor to LC (as in the case of RV alternator). Normal entropy decay is 0.618 of 1.618 as logarithmic time receding signal (search for Seike work in ultra-relativity concepts), so the gain is also in atropic system of 1.618 where frequency increase in octaves may increase amplification by a factor of 3.141592 where the spiral resonant circular projection can be expressed in a 12,000 4d polygon structure (as similar to double helix DNA structure - reason human system is OU by all definitions). Remember LOGARITHMIC SPIRALS ORBITAL DECAY PATH IS RELATIVE to gravity as SIGNAL DECAY OR GAIN IS RELATIVE TO LC Q and parameters in a working ZPE system.

It can be done either way, using a reactance to charge a cap, or discharge a cap in a reactive circuit; the resonant condition creates a logarithmic path where VAR power is created and carries a magnetic amplification component with it.
(End quote)"

please could you, well, erm, be the voice of reason, and react? :)

Dear esaruoho,

Thank you for this post and the link to the "neon peak recovery circuit". THIS APPROACH HAS MERIT!!!!! Going back to what I posted about Tesla's "Method of Conversion", clipping the VOLTAGE PEAK of a resonant tank created by an AC generator feeding a Capacitive load, IS the first method he discusses. The trick is to clip the top of the voltage rise JUST AS THE CURRENT DROPS TO THE ZERO POINT. In a 60 cycle system, that gives you about a millisecond to clip. Under these circumstances, this system WOULD tap Radiant Energy (voltage without current) just as Hector apparently claims.

The discussion about "false triggering" of the SCR's is interesting. My guess would be that the "false triggering" is coming from the neon bulb more than the SCR. 50% failure rate on a commercially available semi-conductor device seems excessive.

There may be simpler circuits that accomplish this in a more reliable way.

Thank you, again for posting this. I now see that there is more to the RV project than just Power Factor Correcting a 3-phase motor.:notworthy: This recovery process will work in ANY situation where an AC generator is supplying Reactive Power to a capacitive load.:thumbsup:

Good luck with your experiments!

Peter

esaruoho
03-09-2008, 09:24 PM
How about Kones OU Prony test?

peter, i hope this is a good page for info on konehead's RVprony-brake test:
Konehead RV Prony Brake Test (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Konehead:RV-Prony-Brake-Test)

it does take a while to sort anything out of the RV. the 3 capacitor power factor correction isnt *hot* enough as a topic, even tho its cool etc, but then theres all these diode plug extraction circuits, resonance recovery, reactive power recovery, etc, etc, etc.

thank you for INVALUABLE comments on the recovery circuit etc.

me merely archiving RV stuff isnt fun :wall: but sometimes its :cheers: too :)

esaruoho
03-09-2008, 09:59 PM
me merely archiving RV stuff isnt fun :wall: but sometimes its :cheers: too :)

went around asking for some links to circuits to extract this stuff, and
was sent this.. hope it is enjoyable to anyone on this list.
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Chapter2.pdf

after about 65% through withthe PDF, it gets to the nitty gritty of extraction circuits etc.
theres even a nice circuit by phil, which is way more complete+fuller than whats on peswiki..

i really hope someone :hug: the pdf.

Peter Lindemann
03-09-2008, 11:13 PM
peter, i hope this is a good page for info on konehead's RVprony-brake test:
Konehead RV Prony Brake Test (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Konehead:RV-Prony-Brake-Test)

it does take a while to sort anything out of the RV. the 3 capacitor power factor correction isnt *hot* enough as a topic, even tho its cool etc, but then theres all these diode plug extraction circuits, resonance recovery, reactive power recovery, etc, etc, etc.

thank you for INVALUABLE comments on the recovery circuit etc.

me merely archiving RV stuff isnt fun :wall: but sometimes its :cheers: too :)

esaruoho,

Thanks again for the link to Konehead's Prony Brake test. From what I can tell, his math is wrong. I don't see where he is calculating the CIRCUMFERENCE of his shaft interface with the teflon friction boot. This is critical to properly calculating how many FEET are represented by the measured RPM.

He shows a one foot rod over to the scale, and tells us the scale deflection. All of this is fine. But the rest is goofy. 1800 RPM divided by 60 seconds = 30 revolutions per second. This "30" needs to be multiplied by the CIRCUMFERENCE of the brake interface to calculate the total number of "feet" the machine is driving into the brake. If the shaft is 2 inches in diameter, then the circumference of the shaft inside the teflon brake is 2 inches X 3.1415 (pi) = 6.283 inches = .52 feet. This means that every revolution of the shaft represents .52 feet traveled against the friction brake.

So, 1.56 Lbs deflected on the scale, times 1 foot moment arm, times 30 revolutions per second, times .52 feet circumference = 24.33 Ft-Lbs/sec produced by the motor.

90 watts input is equivalent to 66.35 Ft-Lbs/sec, since 1 hp = 746 watts = 550 Ft-Lbs/sec.

By these calculations, the motor is operating at an efficiency equal to 36.6% electrical to mechanical conversion. If the shaft is larger than 2 inches, then it is doing a little better.

I do not understand where Konehead's calculation of 398 Watts output comes from. His other example uses the same faulty math, so it is probably in error also.

If anybody sees a problem with my calculations, please show me.

Here is a link for the proper calculation of brake horse power using a device like this:

Do-It-101.com Chapter 12 of Practical Mechanics For Boys, by J. S. Zerbe, M.E. (http://doit101.com/boymechanic/chapter12.html)

Peter

esaruoho
03-10-2008, 12:20 AM
this was sent to me from konehead, but its not yet a response to the prony brake. i h ope you will find it responseworthy. i have now relayed your message bout pronybrake to him, and will function as a conduit.

to save you time, i also linked to a non-yahoo-group link tot he gif he is talking about. hope this helps.
---
Hi Esa

can you send this to PL in that energy forum?

Hi Peter

Actually there are 4 points to trigger at in sinewave - the peaks,
neg and pos, likeyou said, and also the two "zero-line passovers"
too! (where they got the term "zero point energy" as John D Shnurner
told me many years ago on telephone....(Shnurner had a secret self-
runner for many years but sadly I heard he has passed away from heart
attack a few years ago)

There is other method to do this right here in files section in
EVGRAY yahoo board - "SNAG-219 by ccbern (http://scene.org/~esa/merlib/rv/SNAG-219.gif)" - this circuit also clips
at sinewave peaks and is different but does same thing.
You should join this board again!
You left a long time ago arguing with Bruce Perrault but I kicked him
out a long time ago too so you dont have to worry about headaches
from arguing in EVGRAY - I am moderator...

Those high percentage of SCR failures were not installed in a sine
wave peak circuit - a guy (Dan Combine I beleive it was but not sure)
set up a test rig to test some SCRs he bought, and he got that big
failure rate in SCRs...so the circuit itself did not cause all the
burn outs. Seems hard to beleive the SCR manufactures are so rotten
but that is what he got...

I wouldnt call this a "recovery" circuit - a
backemf/recoil "recovery" circuti is what you want to put INSIDE an
INVERTOR powering an RV - recover backemf/recoil and put that into
caps - just like DC stuff but now you do it "both ways" since it is
AC....

I would call this a "non-reflective" pulsed power output
circuit ...mainly it doesnt LUG the motor down when you get power
output happening is its claim to fame...

Ash put up a video about two weeks ago - running massive light bulbs
with an RV setup - he installs the peak sensing circuit, and the
battery running the invertor in the system returns to its "idle"
voltage when the neo peak trigger circuit swoithes in....

I wouldnt call the RV messing with the reactive power either - or
power factor correcting....its AC caps you use not DC to get your
amps way down once you get the thing going - adjust the run cap UF
value to the load you have going is what you do (easy!!)

To be messing with the "reactive" power as you call it - what then
you want to do is start to make use of the "3rd phase" (AKA rotary
transformer phase or the run cap phase, or also called the virtual
phase or blank phase)
Technically I dont think this should be called reactive power, since
it is more exact to call it a rotary transformer phase is my humble
opinion...

Anyways this is alot of power that also can be tapped via sine wave
circuit and it doesnt affect draw to "prime mover" (motor)

Then after all this is the power of shaft too - whatever sort of
generator you want on that go for it...

Overall very very cool - too bad so many are so certain H is full of
baloney when actually people thinking that need to adjust their
thinking cap and DO THE RV EXPERIMENT THEMSELVES!!!!
IT is SO EASY - takes an afternoon once you get the parts to get it
going - tuning it and everything else takes awhile but is way simpler
than any DYI project to do free energy wise, plus motor is factory
balanced, with factory air gap tolerances strong as steel unit that
runs forever too and wont ever break down - cant ask for much more
except a permanent magnet rotor in a custom one....

once you get frequency adjustment, pulse width adjustment, and
voltage adjustment to your RV system then its REALLY something - not
just running on 60 or 50hx all the time...

ciao Konehead

(from Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVGRAY/message/18189) )

esaruoho
03-10-2008, 06:17 AM
i was asked to post this to the thread, for peter lindemann.

Important: READ my comments within
Hector ...


--"esa juhani ruoho" <esaruoho@...
> newer circuit schematic for the neon peak recovery circuit?, please?

Given LONNNGGG time ago ......

Use Light dimmer circuit (2) remove triac use SCR and a pass diode
in series with the bilateral switching diode Make 2 units one positive
& one negative for full wave recovery ,
_
It will switch at TOP of charge slope but not before ...as neon does.

(now for the other comentary ...)


> ---
> Dear esaruoho,
>
> Thank you for this post and the link to the "neon peak recovery
> circuit". THIS APPROACH HAS MERIT!!!!! Going back to what I posted
> about Tesla's "Method of Conversion", clipping the VOLTAGE PEAK of a
> resonant tank created by an AC generator feeding a Capacitive load,
IS the first method he discusses. The trick is to clip the top of the
> voltage rise JUST AS THE CURRENT DROPS TO THE ZERO POINT. In a 60
> cycle system, that gives you about a millisecond to clip.
__________________________________________________ ___________________
Turn on within 90/360 R 1/360 + - R arc seconds of 1/120S top half
sine peak .
__________________________________________________ ________________

Capacitor in a tesla coil is Tailored to ARC gap Within PEAK of
resonance in a HV 60CPS LC setup ( Raivo got Corrected teslacoil
plans and I posted how to built a 10 to 40 KV tunable sliding
capacitor long ago to test this out ,

Using 3 glass plates 14x18 inches and 8x10 inch aluminum foil plates
the plates are tuned by sliding and offseting them to peak trafo
resonance ...

I can built 50 million volt 3 phase delta or Wye teslacoils (Easy).
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> Under these circumstances, this system WOULD tap Radiant Energy
> (voltage without current) just as Hector (apparently) claims. SIC*

What Hector CLAIMS and has being TESTED by engineers independently
is the WAY to CAPTURE radiant energy , AS RADIANT ENERGY IS RF and
can be NODE split using diodes as HOT carrier DIODES in FULL resonant
conditions or semy resonant ones .

(Just as Hector apparently claims.)

The 2 trigger systems are the best & more simpler to do by anyone .
With off the shelf circuits HACKS ...

PARTY strobelight circuits (Neon trigger )
Light Dimmers Downslope SCR (triac) trigering device (Switching diode
triger)

Its self driving ,simple parts , and as is PUBLIC aplication of
ALREADY expired PATENTS circuitry & NEW PUBLIC domain aplication of
SUCH to RADIANT energy ROTOVERTER RESEARCH it is UNLAWFULL and Inlegal
to even trying to PATENT the stuff (public sinse 1999 ..)

Keep copy , search old info , verify information ...

Thanks

Hector ~_~ !

from Yahoo! Groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVGRAY/message/18193) (there was a bit more diatribe three on it)

lets move on! :color:

Aaron
03-10-2008, 06:38 AM
Zero point energy comes from....

Bring something to absolute zero and motion is supposed to stop...but it doesn't...there is still energetic movement... that is where the term zero point energy comes from....not from the zero current 0 point from AC.

peper10
03-10-2008, 07:44 AM
By saying this,you don't disclame or bring something new to this!!
If he bring something that might WORK,there a bunch of guys
that gonna tried this..
We just start to discover how it works,and there's not so much
people who REALY know that!!
BTW ! The bedini sg and the other stuff that we work on,is it called
by commun people...:ZERO ENERGY Is it?????
I dont want to approuve or disprouve nobody here!! I just said
that,maybe we might take a look to it and see if it work???
You know ;Every road go to ROME ,like the proverb said!!!
The more and more we learn about this,the more we gonna start
to think....but first,we must IGNATE our MIND ..
:cheers: :cheers: :thumbsup:
REGARDS!!!!!!!!

peper10

Aaron
03-10-2008, 09:27 AM
Hi Peper,

What I said doesn't have anything to do with the validity of any technology. It has to do with language and that is it. I can accept people saying "zero point energy" as a term for "free energy" type technologies...this term has made its way into the language far enough and is accepted as such..that is one thing but to erroneously say where the term "zero point energy" came from saying it comes from the 0 line in the AC wave, that is another and is incorrect.

Same as the term "overunity," which is an oxymoron, but it has made its way into the language deep enough that it has become accepted as being a common term to describe something that has over 1.0 COP.

Also with over 100% efficient...there is no such thing but there is over 1.0 COP...but when people refer to something as being over 100% efficient...that too has become a commonly accepted concept showing more out than the operator puts in...even though it is technically incorrect.

Just like many people think when they are capturing the collapsing field from a coil it is capturing back emf, but it is not. There is no more back emf when the circuit is disconnected and what comes back is the spike, which is not the back emf, which doesn't even exist anymore (since the circuit was disconnected).

When people refer to these things like this, I get what they are saying even though I know they may not be technically correct and they may not even know themselves the correct distinction...that is fine.

I'm very open to what others are saying and can look at anything with brand new eyes as if I never even heard the word electricity or anything else for that matter.

I simply believe that if everyone started to get on the same page with the same language on all the distinctions in this field, we can communicate and figure out what the heck we are all trying to say.

Anyway, I look at this thread on the RV stuff every day to see what I can learn from it. :v-peace:

Peter Lindemann
03-10-2008, 06:16 PM
Esaruoho,

My comments were directed to YOU, in response to your question to ME. That others may be viewing this thread is inevitable, because it is a public forum. However, the next time you answer my post with remarks from others, is the day I stop answering any of your questions.

Konehead,

I have taken up your offer and have resigned up to the EVGRAY Yahoo Group. My approval is waiting in the que. My Yahoo ID is PAL112358. Please approve me and call me on the phone. My number is in the comments box.

Hector,

I have NOT been a supporter of your project up until now. What has turned me OFF mostly has been my inability to make any sense of your writings, coupled with the multiple demonstrations of your ill temper. You seem to have very little understanding of how much this has affected other people's willingness to look seriously at your work.

From your own point of view, you don't need anyone else to approve of your work. Fine. You know what you have. Fine. Everybody else who doesn't see it is a jerk. Fine. That includes me. Fine. At least that is settled.

Be that as it may, you can be a genius in your own mind, but if you are unwilling to behave in a civil manner toward the rest of us, WE JUST WON'T CARE!! If your discoveries are important, then it is equally important that you do not project a persona that repels potential supporters. Regardless of what it feels like to be you, inside, the rest of us only see your BEHAVIOR. So far, as an observer from a distant country, I have viewed your behavior as atrocious, and your behavior has KEPT me disinterested in your work all this time!

I am going to look into this technology you have been promoting, starting now. But I am not going to put up with you projecting your anger and frustration at me because it has taken me SO LONG to become interested. You have a number of very intelligent people involved it this so far, but everyone is tip-toeing around, trying not to upset you, because no one wants your anger projected at them. Me? I don't care if you like me or not. My loyalty is to Science History and to Science Fact, as best as I understand them.

My goal will be to understand what this technology is and what it's historic roots are. At this point, my understanding is that it all relates back to Tesla's brushless induction motors, and his "Method of Conversion" processes for cracking Radiant Energy out of Resonant AC tank circuits. If you have found practical ways to accomplish this with off-the-shelf technology, then it is AWESOME. Secondly, I will try to develop a vocabulary that describes these methods in a way that is directly connected back to fully understood terms in electrical engineering. So far, I have not been able to derive these understandings from your writings, even if this is what you have been trying to convey. Since I do not understand your writings, I will not rely on them. The operating machines will tell me everything I need to know.

I am going to connect up with Konehead. He seems to have a fairly decent grasp of what your technology is. I have known him for 7 years. He lives relatively close to me (I think) so I can go and see his working models (I hope). In the meantime, please leave me alone and let me learn in my own way. Thank you for your understanding and patience.

Peter

esaruoho
03-11-2008, 12:04 AM
hi peter. i've notified konehead to have him approve you. hope this will result in some good stuff.

in regards me getting a response from others to your response to my question, i apologize, but my understanding is limited to dcoffset, resonance, and digital distortion (clipping) on audio. i can use software oscillators to create impulse plsations of whichever pulsewidth and frequency i want, but that just results in wonky sounds, not anything else. i've been looking at the RV thing for a while and hoping it to develop into something that is attractive to people, not just splintered and detractive.

here's an extra pair of nerves for the hurricane H's effect on evgray. he'lltry and wind you up but as long as you don't respond to the cussing, and you display a greater amount of courtesy + gentlemanlike behaviour than he (is easy, i know:) ), we'll maybe finally get somewhere.

i am really hoping :grindaisy: that you and konzen will get tao have a good chat about this stuff. all i can do is throw keywords out that i see connected to the recovery, and then function as a relay-conduit.

if one day i could do these things with hand-size motors, safely (:embarrassed: but im afraid of simply just dying if i muck around with highvoltages - i have nothing but an interest in understanding this stuff and this frequency multiplication), and i can get someone whom i trust to assist, i'll definitely be looking at various solutions, but from a "power a laptop+synth" angle. sorry. i wish i could talk the jargon and know what im doing, but all i can do is look at you all talk and see the connections. other than that its all :suprise: to me)

>The operating machines will tell me everything I need to know.

i really hope that you and konehead will walk up to a table and you guys will get down to the nittygritty. nothing but good can come out of this :)

ashtweth
03-11-2008, 12:54 AM
What a post thanks allot PL.:thumbsup: :notworthy:

Aaron, know where your coming from, but this is a special case, so far using this "lingo" we have come up with circuits that behave as the lingo states:confused: , i know where your coming from, but with H, its best to go with the flow Bro.:cheers:

I can see Aaron getting an RV, if you do and put it in another language its all still relative.

Ash

theremart
03-11-2008, 01:10 AM
Great! I like it when super minds bend and warp time :)

As for the RV, I am now shifting all my energy to learning how to program pic controllers. I am frustrated as I am unable to get the computers to talk with either of the pics I have purchased. But, hard headed as ever, I will ask those that know to point me in the right direction.

The RV is still not out of my mind, but I think I will look at the EV gray group on yahoo, and ask around to see what works, and works well.

Ash, I am very interested in the next steps on modifying and inverter. I am thinking I would pay someone to modify one for me, think I will ask Kone if he could recommend someone to do this task. I will survey what it takes to make this modification, but since I have no scope, I am not sure I want to invest in a scope, then in a project that will take me much time to do. I am thinking I would rather pay someone to do this for me who has the skill.

Much to think about, and it is so good to see teamwork guys!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

linesrg
03-11-2008, 02:00 AM
esa,

You posted earlier about the failures Dan(?) had with his SCR's when he tested them.

He did indeed make such a post but he also found (and I'm sure posted) that if you increase the 9V battery in the test device he had to 18V then the test device works properly.

I can confirm this as I bought such a kit here in the UK. I have never known of an SCR to be non-functional from new anymore than any other semiconductor.

I look forward to PL investigating the RV issue. I broadly agree with his sentiments with regards to Hector as well. Personally I find most of Hector's post to be unintelligible. That is not to say he's wrong, he may possibly have the way forward to solve some of the world's energy problems but he needs to communicate it better.

Regards

Richard

Aaron
03-11-2008, 07:59 AM
Looking at some of the basic stuff on the RV, there is a prime mover (input motor) and an alternator (the output motor used as a generator that gives some phenomenal gain if hooked up in a certain way).

Even without the output generator, for starters, can we accurately say that the input motor will run more efficient when hooked up in a certain way?

Therefore, by itself, standing alone, the "prime mover" runs extremely efficient and even more efficient beyond what just power factor correction does?

Aaron
03-11-2008, 08:00 AM
Please humor me on these simple questions. I already know the answers, but lets get the ball rolling ok? If this is painful for any of you, skip the message please :)

ashtweth
03-11-2008, 10:57 AM
Mart i have the latest frequency driven RV inverter called the Sg V4. 12-24 votl and kicks behind Can you ndorp me an email ill send it to you? Not sure if any one on the group cna make one but this document has all the stuff you need for some one who can.

Aaron, no question is painful man.

In the beginning of the RV operation by a 3 Phase configuration the capacitor vectors the current and voltages into a rotation. At the start we have 2 wires AC input and we use capacitor to create the 3rd phase. The chosen (vectoring) capacitor puts voltages (or current) to rotate, all phases 120deg (3 x 120 = 360). In a stand-alone system, the key to operation is the presence of capacitance. This gives electricity somewhere to "go" without the capacitors acting as a load. Thus enabling current to flow in the motor and get it all excited.


The roto verter stator windings are wired in Y configuration and are having 3 terminals. We are feeding 2 of these directly with some sinusoidal voltage, which creates some current in 2 of the stator coils (they are connected in series in case of Y-connection). this current in these coils will lag the applied voltage by 90 degrees due to the inductive nature of these windings. The third terminal is fed through a capacitor. This compensates the lagging of current (current which is going through a capacitor will be leading the applied voltage for 90 degrees) in the third stator coil. So there will be created a rotating magnetic field in the stator windings, which will induce the current in initially static squirrel cage rotor windings.

The squirrel cage can actually be considered as a transformer secondary winding, which is in "shorted" state when the rotor is just starting it's rotation. And what happens when you short a transformer? It's primary virtual inductance (and thus the total impedance) decreases very much and lot of current will be needed from the power source. Point is, that to maintain this rotating magnetic field in the stator when the rotor is just accelerating, we have to supply a lot of current to ALL of the stator windings.

That's why we need much bigger capacity for the start cap - Xc=1/(2*PI*f*C) - we are having constant frequency and in order to pass more current to the third coil also we need to decrease the reactive resistance of the capacitor, thus we need to increase the capacitor's value. So we will use the start cap that is able to pass almost similar amount of current to the third stator coil also.


Now when the rotor comes up to speed, the rotating magnetic field of the stator will cut less and less. the squirrel-cage windings and the virtual transformer shorting effect decreases and thus the needed current from the power source also decreases. Now when we still have the big start cap in place, then it's Xc (reactive capacitance) will be so small when compared with the third stator winding's XL (reactive inductance XL=2*PI*f*L), that the total current in the third winding will be mostly determined by this XL value and thus the current in first two stator coils and third stator coil will be almost in the same phase, thus killing the rotating magnetic field that should be produced by the stator for normal operation for this kind of motor.

Now we need to disconnect the start cap and keep only the much smaller run cap, which will restore the properly rotating field in the stator (the cap creates the needed phase shift for current in the third winding). This advice is valid only for the prime mover in UNLOADED CASE (for the case when we do not need to run big loads with it). The values of the capacitors and components are specific to the motor size used.

The starting cap is 100 to 200uF, the running cap is from 7 to 40uF (370V oil caps). Starting cap is to give a boost from 0. Big motors require it to acquire torque to move the rotor mass plus alternator mass to rotational RV effect speed. The run capacitor is chosen as to maintain best 120 degree rotation within the 3PH windings under the intended target load.

This is what hector regards as a high Q (reactive power) semi resonant state. The loaded motor is a bit similar to a starting but unloaded motor - you need especially to tune the caps so, that the semi-resonance takes place at LOADED STATE. Then according to the resonance laws and depending on the Q factor, the apparent parallel LC circuit resistance can be many times bigger than the individual XL or XC (and so the consumed power from the power supply is minimal). At the same time very big circulating currents will be existing in the same parallel LC circuit (motor windings).So the effect will be such: when the RV prime mover is running idle,. then it will consume some amount of power and it's total resistance is mainly determined by the XL of the windings.

Review and summery of prime mover operation: In the prime mover he is connecting the windings in series (to 480V mode), but driving the motor only from 110V grid (operating at ¼ of the voltage) this series-connection further helps to reduce input current. The HI impedance and 3rd phase generation create a transformer alike operation were 1/10 power usage can be attained at no load.

Tips on tunning the prime mover (and An introduction to the alternator system) The PM is a parallel resonant circuit configuration (when connected to the alternator) When properly tuned, it should have a PF of as close to 1 as you can get. A PF of 1 is when the reactive components C&L cancel each others impedance and the apparent power = the true power. In a parallel resonant circuit the impedance as seen from the source goes to a high level (PM unloaded). When the PM is loaded more true power is dissipated so the impedance goes down. With the PM under load you have to retune the C box for best PF (closest to 1). For the alt circuit we are dealing with a series resonant circuit configuration. In a series resonant circuit the source sees minimum impedance at resonance.
The alternator side

Now we are connecting the RV prime mover with another identical motor to become the alternator side. As we need to achieve a parallel resonance condition. (or nearly such kind of resonance condition) in the prime mover (when the RV alternator part is loaded with needed load), so that the consumed power from the power supply will be minimal.

when we are loading the RV primary with some mechanical force (like loaded alternator for example), we are reducing the rotors speed, the revolving stator field will cut more of the squirrel cage windings, the transformer-kind-of loading effect increases and stator windings virtual resistance decreases. Your goal is to find a proper run cap for this proper loaded state of operation to achieve such state, that the consumed current from power source would be minimal.

When loading the RV prime mover, we will get closer to resonant state and the current that is consumed from the power supply, WILL NOT increase linearly with loading, but may even DECREASE due to the fact, that the overall system resistance might be several times bigger due to high Q non-linear effect.

The opposite is true to alternator part - there you will want to create maximum current in stator windings and also maximum voltage in stator windings and all this without causing TOO much drag to the prime mover. So basically with RV you need to tune 2 caps, the alternator cap and also the run cap. First use a bit bigger run cap, get the alternator to properly generate (by selecting/changing the value of alternator's vectoring cap) without bogging down the prime mover.

Also you need to do the tuning in the LOADED state, where some useful load is also connected to the alternator. So, when the alternator works and load is powered, then tune also the prime mover's run cap to the minimal value of consumed current from the power supply (of course you need to keep the alternator running too, so reducing the run cap too abruptly can cause the prime mover to lose too much of it's driving power and alternator might stop).

The essence of RV is not running on minimal current if idle. The essence is to have 2 motors connected, one as motor and the other as generator. A load will be connected to generator (having it's dual windings in parallel, thus low Q, motor part has it's dual windings in series => high Q, big inductivity) and only then the motor part's run cap is TUNED to MINIMAL MOTOR CURRENT WITH DESIRED LOAD.

Now we have a High Q narrowband motor part driving low Q wideband alternator part with desired load. Motor part will be tuned to resonance and this resonance will contribute a lot of mechanical power to the alternator part while consuming minimal power from the power supply. The motor part should have U voltage driving 4*U rated windings, this gives some headroom for resonant rise and resonant amplification effects without the irons saturating.

If run without load with the same run cap, the motor part will not have minimum current because Crun for loaded case is bigger than Crun for idle case. So in idle mode the RV primary's input current will be actually capacitive instead of inductive as with normal motors. But when loaded, the sweet point is attained where the PF=1 and resonant current amplification occurs and motor torque will be much bigger than normally expected with this low input voltage.

Another aspect with the RV is that the second motor (generator) can be set to semi-resonate at a reasonably hi virtual power. In contrast to the PM which is an example of a parallel resonance tuned to PF=1 under load, the generator exemplifies a series resonance and will have max current & minimal impedance when a cross phase cap is adjusted towards resonance. The virtual power in the alt vs the cap adjusted pf=1 power in the Prime Mover can easily exceed 10:1.. As theory goes a percentage of the virtual power can be extracted to a real load with out reflecting back to the PM

ashtweth
03-11-2008, 11:03 AM
>Even without the output generator, for starters, can we accurately say that the input motor will run more efficient when hooked up in a certain way?

Yes, using a Freq drive and tuning the caps under load. Another dood recently used one of the phases and a choke l and charged a battery, Jason might post this soon after a few bugs

>Therefore, by itself, standing alone, the "prime mover" runs extremely efficient and even more efficient beyond what just power factor correction does?

sort of :D Well, you can still have all the benefits of the Alt reactive power extraction with the PM, you can loop the PM almost the same way too. I am putting new ideas and circuits off the group together in the new version of the Comp ATM. I guess using the Freq drive and Tunning the PM with the cap to the needs of the lad RUN IN RV MODE, is more efficient then a normal electric motor (off the shelf).

Peter Lindemann
03-11-2008, 04:33 PM
Ash,

Thank you very much for this "overview" of the RV operations. This is the best I have seen.

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you some very simple and direct questions about the behavior of this set up, since you already have this mostly explained in readily accepted AC power terminology.

1) You state: "When loading the RV prime mover, we will get closer to resonant state and the current that is consumed from the power supply, WILL NOT increase linearly with loading, but may even DECREASE due to the fact, that the overall system resistance might be several times bigger due to high Q non-linear effect."

My question is this: Under this condition, or any other favorable set of circumstances, have you ever MEASURED a mechanical energy production at the shaft (on a dynamometer) that exceeds the electrical input to the motor (ie. COP>1) ? A simple Yes or No will suffice.

2) You also state: "Another aspect with the RV is that the second motor (generator) can be set to semi-resonate at a reasonably hi virtual power. In contrast to the PM which is an example of a parallel resonance tuned to PF=1 under load, the generator exemplifies a series resonance and will have max current & minimal impedance when a cross phase cap is adjusted towards resonance. The virtual power in the alt vs the cap adjusted pf=1 power in the Prime Mover can easily exceed 10:1.."

My question is this: Do you accept that the phenomena you refer to here as "virtual power" is the same as and identical to what is referred to in standard terminology as "Reactive Power", measured in VARs? Again, a simple Yes or No will suffice.

3) And finally, you state: "As theory goes, a percentage of the virtual power can be extracted to a real load with out reflecting back to the PM"

My comments on this are as follows. I know of a number of researchers who have successfully extracted 95% of this power by using complex LRC networks and, for all intents and purposes, phase shifted the current the rest of the 270 degrees forward to create REAL POWER again, with only nominal loading of the generator.

My question is this: How much of this power have you seen extracted, and may I review any data that you have documenting this?

In the last analysis, Power Factor Correction is a manipulation of the phase relationships between the Voltage and the Current in any AC power system. Solid-state methods to convert ordinary Reactive Power back into Real Power are not a part of "standard practice", but they are a mathematical extension of the same process. All of this was published by Borderland Sciences Research Foundation in the 1980's in books authored by Eric Dollard, using his Four Quadrant Theory of AC power and Versor Algebra.

I look forward to learning your answers.

Peter

esaruoho
03-11-2008, 07:10 PM
In the last analysis, Power Factor Correction is a manipulation of the phase relationships between the Voltage and the Current in any AC power system. Solid-state methods to convert ordinary Reactive Power back into Real Power are not a part of "standard practice", but they are a mathematical extension of the same process. All of this was published by Borderland Sciences Research Foundation in the 1980's in books authored by Eric Dollard, using his Four Quadrant Theory of AC power and Versor Algebra.

good day peter. thank you so much for your strength and clarity in this thread. you are encouraging others to be clearer with your attitude, and this is what has been missing for so long.

if its ok, i would like to ask - which books authored by eric dollard would be crucial for further understanding his four quadrant theory of ac power?
thank you very much in advance, and now its back to :thinking: at the thread and :suprise: at the good will that is coming out in this thread. almost every single other thread has died elsewhere into skepticism and namecalling, or just not received any attention, but this one is one worth archiving.

thank you everyone!!

Peter Lindemann
03-11-2008, 07:40 PM
good day peter. thank you so much for your strength and clarity in this thread. you are encouraging others to be clearer with your attitude, and this is what has been missing for so long.

if its ok, i would like to ask - which books authored by eric dollard would be crucial for further understanding his four quadrant theory of ac power?
thank you very much in advance, and now its back to :thinking: at the thread and :suprise: at the good will that is coming out in this thread. almost every single other thread has died elsewhere into skepticism and name calling, or just not received any attention, but this one is one worth archiving.

thank you everyone!!

esaruoho,

No problem. The two main books that cover this material are titled: Symbolic Representation of Alternating Electric Waves and Symbolic Representation of the Generalized Electric Wave, both by Eric Dollard.

They can be purchased here: Eric Dollard and Tesla (http://www.borderlands.com/dollardandtesla.htm)

Theoretically, this was worked out over 20 years ago, and more recently has been reduced to practice successfully by Eric Dollard and Jim Murray.

Peter

esaruoho
03-12-2008, 05:53 AM
thanks peter!:rainbow:

theremart
03-12-2008, 01:00 PM
Thanks Ash for the info on the inverter.

So if I understand the schematic you sent me this is the complete inverter instruction build. How many of these have been made and tested?

Mart

Aaron
03-12-2008, 06:10 PM
Thanks Ash, I'm a lot more clear on the whole concept.

Looking at the basic input motor:

http://peswiki.com/images/8/80/D2_rotoverter02.JPG

It seems pretty straightforward enough in concept.

The overall system connected to a generator:

http://peswiki.com/images/9/9f/D2_rotoverter01.JPG

That also seems straightforward in concept.

The front side motor and the back side generator are electrically isolated from each other. Even if the generator output goes to DC and charges batteries that in turn power an inverter to supply AC to the front side motor, that is isolated as well.

So just looking at the front side motor and totally disregarding the back side generator for now, I think there is a very simple test that should be made. It will show a nice clean comparision.

Take an AC 1HP 3 phase motor for example...

Test 1, leave it totally stock, supply power, and take readings of torque and all power readings at idle and as it is incrementally loaded with more and more load.

Test 2, do simple power factor corrections with caps in series and/or with combination of caps in parallel and/or other variations and do the same test... supply power and take all power readings and torque readings at idle and incrementally with more and more load.

Test 3, wire in Rotoverter fashion, take same power readings and torque readings at idle and incrementally with more and more load.

I have no doubt that Test 2 and Test 3 will be superior to the stock Test 1.

For results, it doesn't matter what all the theories and ideas are in regards to the RV concepts and its validity...obviously the motor will run but how efficient compared to standard or non-standard power factor correction...that is what I'd like to see a comparison on.

I would probably have to do the test myself if I really want to know but have these test been done by several experimenters with posted results?

ashtweth
03-13-2008, 12:08 AM
Hi Aaron and Peter.

Okay ill get to Peters and come back for Aarons.

>My question is this: Under this condition, or any other favorable set of circumstances, have you ever MEASURED a mechanical energy production at the shaft (on a dynamometer) that exceeds the electrical input to the motor (ie. COP>1) ? A simple Yes or No will suffice.

NO not yet peter, i have one for any body who has a Dyno to test.

>My question is this: Do you accept that the phenomena you refer to here as "virtual power" is the same as and identical to what is referred to in standard terminology as "Reactive Power", measured in VARs? Again, a simple Yes or No will suffice

YES

>My comments on this are as follows. I know of a number of researchers who have successfully extracted 95% of this power by using complex LRC networks and, for all intents and purposes, phase shifted the current the rest of the 270 degrees forward to create REAL POWER again, with only nominal loading of the generator.

Peter grab this infoz please:suprise: , add it to the RV Alt and you have an off the shelf device thats lets say is going to be very interesting. ;)

>My question is this: How much of this power have you seen extracted, and may I review any data that you have documenting this?

Peter you are welcome to ANY thing i have, equipment grants i get form my non profit org for this technology you name it. I have seen a portion of it being extracted with the Neon circuit.
Roto verter Neon Test (http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=1131268361504579033&hl=en-AU)

You need two of them to be non reflective (in theory) i have also seen the resonance extraction circuit extract some too.

But nothing OU yet, as Both those circuits we used were NOT designed to go there just prove a point that the reactive power" can be tapped. ALLOT of RV engineers are working on the Neon extraction circuit side of things,and also the prime mover loop circuits (ill get all that documentation too you please send me an email so i can add you in the address book peter -ashtweth@gmail.com Aaron send me one too il add you as a CC.

We have most of it covered on the Neon just need more testing of TWO of them and data now, so any thing new would be objective, these complex RLC must be simplified and added to the RV Alt, i am sure the maths could be useful to ad to the loop ideas in calculation of impedances etc.

Okay Peter any thing i missed just let me know, i am about to upload another RV manual which isn't on the panacea home page, its where that description came from.

Ash

Peter Lindemann
03-13-2008, 05:10 AM
Hi Aaron and Peter.

Okay ill get to Peters and come back for Aarons.

>My question is this: Under this condition, or any other favorable set of circumstances, have you ever MEASURED a mechanical energy production at the shaft (on a dynamometer) that exceeds the electrical input to the motor (ie. COP>1) ? A simple Yes or No will suffice.

NO not yet peter, i have one for any body who has a Dyno to test.

>My question is this: Do you accept that the phenomena you refer to here as "virtual power" is the same as and identical to what is referred to in standard terminology as "Reactive Power", measured in VARs? Again, a simple Yes or No will suffice

YES

>My comments on this are as follows. I know of a number of researchers who have successfully extracted 95% of this power by using complex LRC networks and, for all intents and purposes, phase shifted the current the rest of the 270 degrees forward to create REAL POWER again, with only nominal loading of the generator.

Peter grab this infoz please:suprise: , add it to the RV Alt and you have an off the shelf device thats lets say is going to be very interesting. ;)

>My question is this: How much of this power have you seen extracted, and may I review any data that you have documenting this?

Peter you are welcome to ANY thing i have, equipment grants i get form my non profit org for this technology you name it. I have seen a portion of it being extracted with the Neon circuit.
Roto verter Neon Test (http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=1131268361504579033&hl=en-AU)

You need two of them to be non reflective (in theory) i have also seen the resonance extraction circuit extract some too.

But nothing OU yet, as Both those circuits we used were NOT designed to go there just prove a point that the reactive power" can be tapped. ALLOT of RV engineers are working on the Neon extraction circuit side of things,and also the prime mover loop circuits (ill get all that documentation too you please send me an email so i can add you in the address book peter -ashtweth@gmail.com Aaron send me one too il add you as a CC.

We have most of it covered on the Neon just need more testing of TWO of them and data now, so any thing new would be objective, these complex RLC must be simplified and added to the RV Alt, i am sure the maths could be useful to ad to the loop ideas in calculation of impedances etc.

Okay Peter any thing i missed just let me know, i am about to upload another RV manual which isn't on the panacea home page, its where that description came from.

Ash

Ash,

Thanks for the straight answers. Your response clarifies the situation a lot for everybody.

It seems the first thing that needs to happen is to get an accurate dynamometer test on one of your RV motors. If this wiring scheme produces excess mechanical energy, we all need to know. If it doesn't, that is just as important to establish clearly, once and for all. Building a dynamometer is not difficult. The first 10 minutes of my Electric Motor Secrets DVD shows how to build a dynamometer, test a motor, and run all of the calculations.

Next, I highly recommend that the next material that is written about the RV process avoids the use of JARGON. As much as possible, the circuit operations and methods should be described using language whose terms are already well defined in electrical engineering disciplines. This will make it easier for everyone to understand the technology by reading the literature associated with it. An example of this is the use of the term "virtual power measured in watts". This is confusing to people, because the term "virtual power" is not a commonly defined term. Also, the reference to the presents of "watts" suggests that the power is readily available, but in this case, it is not. It is so simple to use the technically correct description "reactive power measured in VARs". Anyone with a background in electrical engineering, knows what this means, and therefore, confusion is completely avoided.

The RV literature is littered with jargon, and this is only one example. Someone (not me) really needs to go back through all of the literature and boil it down to the simplest, accurate explanation of the technology, where every single term is either defined by the author, or is used in accordance with its generally accepted meaning. Circuit descriptions and schematics should use ordinary electrical engineering terminology. Theoretical discussions should be kept separate from the practical discussions of working models. These theoretical discussions can be used to introduce new ideas and concepts when and as they are needed. Every new term should be defined at the time it is introduced.

As for your request for the data on the method to convert reactive power back to real power using Dollard's Four Quadrant Theory methods, they are proprietary, and have not been published to date. So, we are left with the methods the RV group is currently using, which go back to Tesla's "Method of Conversion" circuit processes and the release of Radiant Energy.

It is taking almost 24 hours between the time I write a post at the EVGRAY forum and its appearance on the thread. Apparently, my posts need to be "approved" over there, so, I am going to switch back to posting here. Kone never did call me on the phone, so I am no closer to seeing his unit than before. I am extremely busy, anyway, so for now, its just fine.

More later,

Peter

ashtweth
03-13-2008, 11:40 AM
Hi Peter, thats a brilliant management idea:thumbsup: , il have all those sections and headings done /catagory and jarogn emitting work in the new compilations in a month or two. SIMPLIFIED.

Okay looks like one DVD coming our way.

As for EVGRAY dont worry the posts take for ever to get up there, its yahoo (which sucks). Ill get kone to show you some thing and will drop him a mail.

Now, If Eric wants an R and D tool to work with FREE just let me know, if he wants to make the infoz available for RESEARCH, at what ever cost that would be great.If not i can also do begging from him :rofl:

Seems like we really need a research and development center and grants for this stuff to consolidate individuals like you and eric Aaron etc who have this p[assi0on in their blood. This i am working on with the non profit organization. I hope Eric and your self are in the /R and D mood as we have allot of philanthropic foundations willing to look at our Bob boyce and WFc when ready, this i hope to get grants from and transfer them to open sourced enginners (non profit).

Okay have some new tests and videos (RV) being shot in the next two weeks.
Comps and new simplified stuff is on the way. couldnt find any thing on Eric and the quad stuff, shame the RV can produce all the ractive power you need.

Ash

ashtweth
03-13-2008, 11:47 AM
Thanks Ash, I'm a lot more clear on the whole concept.

Looking at the basic input motor:

http://peswiki.com/images/8/80/D2_rotoverter02.JPG

It seems pretty straightforward enough in concept.

The overall system connected to a generator:

http://peswiki.com/images/9/9f/D2_rotoverter01.JPG

That also seems straightforward in concept.

The front side motor and the back side generator are electrically isolated from each other. Even if the generator output goes to DC and charges batteries that in turn power an inverter to supply AC to the front side motor, that is isolated as well.

So just looking at the front side motor and totally disregarding the back side generator for now, I think there is a very simple test that should be made. It will show a nice clean comparision.

Take an AC 1HP 3 phase motor for example...

Test 1, leave it totally stock, supply power, and take readings of torque and all power readings at idle and as it is incrementally loaded with more and more load.

Test 2, do simple power factor corrections with caps in series and/or with combination of caps in parallel and/or other variations and do the same test... supply power and take all power readings and torque readings at idle and incrementally with more and more load.

Test 3, wire in Rotoverter fashion, take same power readings and torque readings at idle and incrementally with more and more load.

I have no doubt that Test 2 and Test 3 will be superior to the stock Test 1.

For results, it doesn't matter what all the theories and ideas are in regards to the RV concepts and its validity...obviously the motor will run but how efficient compared to standard or non-standard power factor correction...that is what I'd like to see a comparison on.

I would probably have to do the test myself if I really want to know but have these test been done by several experimenters with posted results?

Aaron, i can assure you thre RV's power factor is SUPERIOUR, not just power factor correcting but for the power management of tuning the caps to the needs of the load like Tesla states.

We did this test already with a drill :), you can see on the video, the new one will have a water pump we converted to RV, what i feel needs to be done is an automatic tunning box which automatically tunes the cap bank to the needs of the load, make one of those commercially and then lets buy out eric and save the world with peter :rofl: :cheers: :grindaisy:

Okay, also you can run a 1HP in Rv mode, but really with out a Freq drive its not much use for the torque. I know a friend making a 1KW inverter for the RV, this is where H states the figures can go Negative (humor me here for a moment).

Ash

Aaron
03-13-2008, 08:10 PM
Hi Ash,

With simple power factor correct, it is tuned to the load.

For example, I have an oil forced air system. I want to make the motor turning the squirrel cage blower more efficient. I can figure out what the draw/PF/etc... is while it is running...turning a load...and it won't change (significantly) since it is a very, very steady load. I can PF correct for its draw will be at full load. So when it is up to speed, which probably is less than a second, the capacitance is tuned to the load already.

The motor in the furnace is:
Wagner Induction Motor
1/6 HP
1725 RPM
1 Phase
60 Hz / 115 VAC / 2.8 Amps
This motor is probably from the 50's.

Peter Lindemann
03-14-2008, 05:18 PM
Aaron, i can assure you thre RV's power factor is SUPERIOUR, not just power factor correcting but for the power management of tuning the caps to the needs of the load like Tesla states.

We did this test already with a drill :), you can see on the video, the new one will have a water pump we converted to RV, what i feel needs to be done is an automatic tunning box which automatically tunes the cap bank to the needs of the load, make one of those commercially and then lets buy out eric and save the world with peter :rofl: :cheers: :grindaisy:

Okay, also you can run a 1HP in Rv mode, but really with out a Freq drive its not much use for the torque. I know a friend making a 1KW inverter for the RV, this is where H states the figures can go Negative (humor me here for a moment).

Ash

Ash,

You say that "I can assure you (Aaron) that the RV's power factor is SUPERIOR". How can you say this? In the many years that the RV technology has been around, there are still no dynamometer tests showing an increase in motor efficiency. Also, if a single phase induction motor, under load, is Power Factor corrected to PF=1, this is as good as it gets! The RV configuration cannot have better power management than perfect. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I have to question your beliefs.

If we look at each part of the RV set-up, and analyze it for efficiency, then this is what I see. The Prime Mover RV motor is, essentially, a 3-phase motor rewired to operate on single phase power while being Power Factor corrected. To lower the total input power, the bearings are re-lubricated with a lighter grease to lower rolling friction. In the absence of dynamometer tests, I do NOT assume these modifications will put the performance of this motor into a COP>1 condition. Normally, a well built 5 HP 3-phase induction motor can operate in the 90%+ efficiency range. Without dynamometer tests, we don't know if they hold this performance when operated at reduced voltages and power levels.

The second RV motor is turned and run as a generator driving into a capacitor. This produces large circulating currents, but because they are out of phase with the voltage produced, this does NOT create any substantial mechanical loading on the generator due to the magnetic field functions. So, losses remain low, consisting of rolling friction, wind drag, hysteresis, etc. Again, efficiencies are assumed to be COP<1 until measured otherwise.

The third part of these systems are the SOLID-STATE circuits that collect some amount of usable energy from the reactive power oscillating in the LC tank circuit consisting of the generator windings and its capacitor load. Since standard theory assumes that NO USEFUL ENERGY can be extracted here, it is reasonable to assume that ANY ENERGY that is gained here is FREE. Since this arrangement of components represents the first of Tesla's published "Method of Conversion" processes from 1893, the conclusion I draw from all of this is that the extraction of Radiant Energy by this back end circuitry is the ONLY POSSIBLE energy gain mechanism present in all of this.

Sorry, Ash, but that is what I see at this point.

The very fact that the RV system uses the same machine as both the motor and the generator parts PROVES that COP>1 operation cannot possibly be present in the motor/generator part. In my DVD Electric Motor Secrets I demonstrate on the bench that the function of Back EMF in this type of machine is the real efficiency killer and that any electrical machine that works equally well as a motor and as a generator is permanently limited to COP<1 operation. Of these facts, I am 100% sure! I have run the tests, and documented it on film.

Power Factor correcting any AC induction motor is worth doing because it SAVES energy, but I do not believe that one type of motor PF corrected is inherently better than another until it is measured on the bench and proved to be so.

Peter

Jetijs
03-14-2008, 05:43 PM
Hi all,
Forgive me for maybe a stupid question, but how can an AC induction motor run as a generator? I mean, in order to generate current, you need a moving magnetic field, but I have not seen any magnets on a induction motor rotor - only steel laminations. So how can the rotation of steel laminations create current in stator windings? Or is the magnetic flux provided via the steel shaft form the connected motor as a prime mover?
Thanks,
Jetijs

aladinlamp
03-14-2008, 06:17 PM
Hi all,
Forgive me for maybe a stupid question, but how can an AC induction motor run as a generator? I mean, in order to generate current, you need a moving magnetic field, but I have not seen any magnets on a induction motor rotor - only steel laminations. So how can the rotation of steel laminations create current in stator windings? Or is the magnetic flux provided via the steel shaft form the connected motor as a prime mover?
Thanks,
Jetijs

Induction Generator (http://www.qsl.net/ns8o/Induction_Generator.html)

aladinlamp
03-14-2008, 06:24 PM
Ash,



The second RV motor is turned and run as a generator driving into a capacitor. This produces large circulating currents, but because they are out of phase with the voltage produced, this does NOT create any substantial mechanical loading on the generator due to the magnetic field functions.

Peter

Hi

what in theory can be done to help align current with voltage in the phase>?

thanx

theremart
03-14-2008, 09:01 PM
I decided to run the RV as long as was reasonable with my battery.

It ran for four hours. 14.00 V start 12.5 under load 12.1 under load finish

What blew me away after the motor heated up the amps Dropped.

It was running at .89 amps from the inverter on the ac side.

The draw on the battery was 1.25 amp to -1.30. with the 12.5 to 12.1 range. This really shook me up because the motor is running thru an inverter.

The motor got warm not hot, but very warm still could put my hand on it with no problem.

So I am thinking I can run this motor for well over 4 hours easily. It is a deep cycle battery, so I could of went down to 11 V but decided to stay in the green.:v-peace:

Peter Lindemann
03-14-2008, 11:29 PM
Hi all,
Forgive me for maybe a stupid question, but how can an AC induction motor run as a generator? I mean, in order to generate current, you need a moving magnetic field, but I have not seen any magnets on a induction motor rotor - only steel laminations. So how can the rotation of steel laminations create current in stator windings? Or is the magnetic flux provided via the steel shaft form the connected motor as a prime mover?
Thanks,
Jetijs

Jetijs,

There are no stupid questions. There are only people too stupid to ask them! Always "risk" looking stupid, because if you don't, you will lose an opportunity to learn something.

At first glance, it does seem odd that the induction motor can work as a generator. After all, there are just stator windings and laminations. And, if the iron laminations are perfectly de-magnetized, the machine will NOT start to generate electricity if turned. It takes just a small amount of residual magnetism in the iron to get the process going. Or, if it doesn't start spontaneously, you can quickly connect and disconnect a battery across one of the windings. This will impose a magnetic field in the system and get the oscillations started. After that, it keeps going on its own.

Peter

Jetijs
03-14-2008, 11:40 PM
Thats great, Peter :)
Now I understand. Thank you. :thumbsup:
And thank you aladinlamp for your link, I found it interesting and useful :)
Jetijs

aladinlamp
03-15-2008, 11:15 AM
Hi


on RV alternator side, are we trying to align voltage with current to phase without reflecting to prime mover ?

OR

are we trying to extract usable energy, while voltage and current is off phase(virtual power,reactive power) without reflecting to prime mover ??

Thanx

Peter Lindemann
03-15-2008, 10:23 PM
Hi


on RV alternator side, are we trying to align voltage with current to phase without reflecting to prime mover ?

OR

are we trying to extract usable energy, while voltage and current is off phase(virtual power,reactive power) without reflecting to prime mover ??

Thanx

aladinlamp,

In all of the literature I have seen, the RV Alternator is set up to produce reactive power, which is voltage and current OUT OF PHASE with each other. The coil of the alternator (L) and the capacitor load (C) produce an LC resonant tank circuit where energy freely oscillates back and forth. Since there are no Watts of Real Power present, this energy oscillation does not produce a mechanical load on the Prime Mover. Then, using various circuits, they work toward converting some of this energy back to a useful form in a way that does not dampen out the resonant behavior of the LC tank circuit.

I hope this helps you understand this aspect of the RV method.

Peter

aladinlamp
03-16-2008, 07:53 AM
aladinlamp,

In all of the literature I have seen, the RV Alternator is set up to produce reactive power, which is voltage and current OUT OF PHASE with each other. The coil of the alternator (L) and the capacitor load (C) produce an LC resonant tank circuit where energy freely oscillates back and forth. Since there are no Watts of Real Power present, this energy oscillation does not produce a mechanical load on the Prime Mover. Then, using various circuits, they work toward converting some of this energy back to a useful form in a way that does not dampen out the resonant behavior of the LC tank circuit.

I hope this helps you understand this aspect of the RV method.

Peter

OK thanx, but there are circuits out there, which are trying to extract useful energy from alternator side as well as from prime mover.In case of prime mover there has to be real power, since its doing real work.Correct me if i am wrong, but in prime mover we have both, real power which turns the shaft as well as reactive power-LC resonance, which we are trying to capture without affecting real power consuption and LC resonance.
In case of alternator, we have just LC resonce, which we are trying to catch without affecting it.

Thanx

Peter Lindemann
03-16-2008, 04:17 PM
OK thanx, but there are circuits out there, which are trying to extract useful energy from alternator side as well as from prime mover.In case of prime mover there has to be real power, since its doing real work.Correct me if i am wrong, but in prime mover we have both, real power which turns the shaft as well as reactive power-LC resonance, which we are trying to capture without affecting real power consuption and LC resonance.
In case of alternator, we have just LC resonce, which we are trying to catch without affecting it.

Thanx

aladinlamp,

You are right. Some of the experimenters are reporting on their attempts to harvest energy from the reactive power circulating in the LC tank on the Prime Mover side as well. Since the motor requires both Real Power and Reactive Power to operate, a certain amount of Reactive Power is available for this purpose. This is also an interesting line of research. Some of these circuits are pretty clever, and I look forward to learning more about this work.

The underlying principle here, aladinlamp, is that ANYWHERE you have an LC tank with Reactive Power circulating in it, you can attempt these methods. Some are even doing it with just a transformer and a capacitor. These experiments are sometimes called the "Transverter".

If you look here: http://www.tesla.hu/tesla/articles/18930200/fig01.gif Tesla is showing the basic methodology. The first drawing on the left (Ib) shows resonating the AC power in a capacitor directly from the generator and drawing off voltage peaks through the spark-gap and dumping this to a second stage load consisting of light bulbs and motors. In the next drawing, (IIb) Tesla shows the same basic process, but resonating a local transformer with a capacitor on the secondary. In fact, in the body of the article where he describes these circuits, he states that example IIb is the most practical and cost effective method of the six examples.

These circuits were not design by Tesla to "convert Reactive Power back to Real Power". Strictly speaking, they were designed for the purpose of manipulating Reactive Power for the release of Radiant Energy. The QUALITY of the energy coming off the back end of these circuits is fundamentally different than the "normal electricity" used in the LC tank. That is what makes "closing the loop" so difficult. Tesla never showed how to do this (that I am aware of), but we all suspect he figured it out, and used it to power the Pierce Arrow car in the 1920's.

Peter

ashtweth
03-17-2008, 10:07 AM
HI Peter , Aaron et all.

Whoops, sorry i meant to say PF correcting through the RV method is superior, meaning PF correcting for energy savings , but i got an awesome education from Peter just then so what can i :notworthy:

Yup sure, also the mechanical Dyno tests would be good, we will have a Drill and water pump to do some comparisons for Peter, Dont forget taking Freq driven RV mode into account.

Now Aaron i think you need a Trafo and to run it at 1/4 of the rated voltage for RV mode, we have a single phase Sch in the energy saving comp, am not too sure what yr asking, are you asking how to run that in RV mode? sorry guys have been busy working and had a few late nights:)

Peter Lindemann
03-17-2008, 05:25 PM
HI Peter , Aaron et all.

Whoops, sorry i meant to say PF correcting through the RV method is superior, meaning PF correcting for energy savings , but i got an awesome education from Peter just then so what can i :notworthy:

Yup sure, also the mechanical Dyno tests would be good, we will have a Drill and water pump to do some comparisons for Peter, Dont forget taking Freq driven RV mode into account.

Now Aaron i think you need a Trafo and to run it at 1/4 of the rated voltage for RV mode, we have a single phase Sch in the energy saving comp, am not too sure what yr asking, are you asking how to run that in RV mode? sorry guys have been busy working and had a few late nights:)

Ash,

I like you. You seem like a smart guy. You are considered the "RV Master" in this forum. So, I say this with all due respect.

A "drill and water pump" comparison is NOT a dynamometer test. A dynamometer is a CALIBRATED, scientific instrument that produces a measurement in KNOWN UNITS. Why do you RV guys insist on all of this "scotch tape and bubble gum" pseudo-science? Measure the d*** torque of the RV with a dynamometer, and quit fooling around! You will SEE for yourself that the COP>1, the mythology will be put to rest, and EVERYBODY can move on.

Also, I have already discussed the problem of the RV literature using JARGON. You have said you would clean it up. But right here, you continue the practice. There are less than 100 people on the planet who know what a TRAFO is, and only the Lord himself knows what you mean by "we have a single phase Sch in the energy saving comp".

Ash, if I am not getting through to you, then I hope I am getting through to the others who are reading this forum. Science is a discipline. Its various parts include: 1) the proposal of a hypothesis. This proposal must be defined in a language of commonly used terms whose definitions are shared by everybody. 2) An experiment is then conducted, based on the hypothesis, and the results of this experiment are PUBLISHED. 3) Dis-interested third parties read this account, and then become interested in the experiment. 4) Some of these third parties then try to duplicate the experiment, and PUBLISH their experimental results, as well.

The RotoVerter has sort of been through this process, but not really. The hypothesis is that "wiring a 3-phase motor by the method proposed creates superior motor efficiency". Many tests have been run showing energy savings and many people have duplicated the experiments, but in all of this time, no one has published QUANTIFIED EVIDENCE that the efficiency of the motor (conversion of electrical input to mechanical output) is actually increased. From what I have seen, all you have proved is that most induction motor applications WASTE a lot of energy needlessly. You have NOT proved your method is more efficient, it is simply LESS WASTEFUL!

This is a very useful finding, but it does NOT support the original hypothesis!

Do the science correctly, and you will see what it is. Then report the experimental results to the rest of us, in a language we understand. Then we will know the facts as well.

Peter

theremart
03-18-2008, 12:35 PM
I agree with you Peter, we need to get real measurements to get a good handle of what is happening. I would really like to see you bring your measuring devices to bear on the RV. Or, we should find an industry standard measuring device for torque / HP, and apply it to the RV.

I believe Ash has in some since demonstrated some of this because he has shown the RV can do the same tasks of other motors at a given rating ( drill thru wood metal etc. )

To me the real science is does my electric bill go down? Or, did I spend so much in chasing free energy that it would of been cheaper just to pay for extra electricity. How long does it take for the RV to pay for itself.

I am still counting the cost of the benefits of the RV, verses what other avenues present.

I am wondering, if I go to the next level, ( get an inverter made ) would I be any futher ahead than if I simply bought a DC motor, converted it to Peter's motor design, and ran it. This would have the advantage of not needing an inverter, but has the disadvantage of trying to work on the rotor and getting it machined just right.

I like Peter's motors, but it is an unproven field for me, I have no measured results of a specific motor off the shelf I can compare to. I do see the demonstrated motors in the videos, but I don't have an exact of a motor that is recommended for this task, so I will have to do some digging to find it, and explore myself. On the other hand the RV has specific motors tried and pioneered.

To Peter's point, I agree we need a real test of what the RV can do, and I think a test with various types of RV, those with the frequency generated inverter, those plugged into the wall. Etc...

I would like to see the same with Peter's motors, that is done with the RV. Specific models that have been converted, and a webpage that shows the steps to get there, like now exists with the RV.

Just some thoughts...


mart:whistle:

Peter Lindemann
03-18-2008, 04:54 PM
I agree with you Peter, we need to get real measurements to get a good handle of what is happening. I would really like to see you bring your measuring devices to bear on the RV. Or, we should find an industry standard measuring device for torque / HP, and apply it to the RV.

I believe Ash has in some since demonstrated some of this because he has shown the RV can do the same tasks of other motors at a given rating ( drill thru wood metal etc. )

To me the real science is does my electric bill go down? Or, did I spend so much in chasing free energy that it would of been cheaper just to pay for extra electricity. How long does it take for the RV to pay for itself.

I am still counting the cost of the benefits of the RV, verses what other avenues present.

I am wondering, if I go to the next level, ( get an inverter made ) would I be any futher ahead than if I simply bought a DC motor, converted it to Peter's motor design, and ran it. This would have the advantage of not needing an inverter, but has the disadvantage of trying to work on the rotor and getting it machined just right.

I like Peter's motors, but it is an unproven field for me, I have no measured results of a specific motor off the shelf I can compare to. I do see the demonstrated motors in the videos, but I don't have an exact of a motor that is recommended for this task, so I will have to do some digging to find it, and explore myself. On the other hand the RV has specific motors tried and pioneered.

To Peter's point, I agree we need a real test of what the RV can do, and I think a test with various types of RV, those with the frequency generated inverter, those plugged into the wall. Etc...

I would like to see the same with Peter's motors, that is done with the RV. Specific models that have been converted, and a webpage that shows the steps to get there, like now exists with the RV.

Just some thoughts...


mart:whistle:

Mart,

I agree with most of what you say. "My" motor ideas are still in their formative stage of development. When more refined designs are worked out, they will have to be subjected to all of the scientific standards required to determine their overall COP. The units I have demonstrated in the YouTube clips show a "window of opportunity" for high COP operation, but do not demonstrate high COP operation. The motor Jetijs is building should solve many of the issues of high torque production and efficient energy recovery. If it works out, we will be able to get some firm measurements on his motor.

But the RV has been around for a long time and many claims have been made for its performance. So let's look at the RV situation. You say "I believe Ash has in some since demonstrated some of this because he has shown the RV can do the same tasks of other motors at a given rating ( drill thru wood metal etc. )" This is true. But I have a drill press that draws about 500 watts doing nothing. Left running for 15 minutes, the motor gets really hot. This drill press motor is wasting 95% of the electricity going into it. I have proved to myself, that if I just dial down the applied voltage with a VARIAC, the motor will still perform all of its work requirements on 60 volts. Cutting the voltage in half also cuts the current in half, so the total power is cut by 75%. Now, the motor is only drawing 125 watts, it runs cool, and still drills anything I ask it to. This is before Power Factor Correction, which can even save more. This is before re-lubricating the bearings, which can lower the input even more.

The point here is that these are power management techniques. The questions are: 1) Does it save money? YES, 2) Does the RV optimize all of these savings methods? YES, 3) Is there still sufficient mechanical energy produced to operate the drill and perform all of its necessary functions? YES, 4) Has the "efficiency" (ratio of input electrical energy to output mechanical energy) of the motor increased? I don't think so. 5) Has every drop of wasted energy been eliminated? YES. Is this method of energy savings worth doing? YES.

Is the RV method a "Free Energy" method? Here is where the definition of words is extremely important. In ECONOMIC terms, the RV definitely provides significant energy savings, and ANYTIME you can produce the same amount of useful work for less input, you have freed yourself of the economic burden of purchasing that amount of energy. This IS free energy in economic terms. But in terms of PHYSICS, does the machine produce more energy than it consumes, or operate at a COP>1? The answer is........ in the dynamometer tests that have not been run yet! I believe the answer will be NO, for the reasons I have stated before.

The bottom line is that lowering bearing friction and Power Factor Correcting your various tools and appliances is WELL WORTH DOING, and can save you lot's of money over their useful life. IF you have appliances that have large 3-phase motors in them, converting them to the RotoVerter wiring scheme may well be worth doing. But the economics of replacing all single-phase motors with large 3-phase motors that are wired this way, and remounting them in your appliances MAY NOT be worth all of the time, money and effort simply for the energy saved. It IS worth doing as an EXPERIMENT, to learn about it. If the issue here is economics, and not physics, then the path that saves the most money is the best path.

Peter

sykavy
03-18-2008, 06:10 PM
I think this is relevant to this thread. Peter's motor is related to Switch Reluctant Motors

Reluctance motor : AC MOTORS (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_13/4.html)

And The American Society of Mechanical Engineers sings its praises.(below link)
The rise of VSR motors (http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/membersonly/february98/features/risevsr/risevsr.html)
So Peter isn't just chasing a pipe dream it also has a history and present day applications, though his motor may have slight differences.( I'm not so knowledgeable about these differences, but I know there is a relationship in principle)

Peter Lindemann
03-18-2008, 07:03 PM
I think this is relevant to this thread. Peter's motor is related to Switch Reluctant Motors

Reluctance motor : AC MOTORS (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_13/4.html)

And The American Society of Mechanical Engineers sings its praises.(below link)
The rise of VSR motors (http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/membersonly/february98/features/risevsr/risevsr.html)
So Peter isn't just chasing a pipe dream it also has a history and present day applications, though his motor may have slight differences.( I'm not so knowledgeable about these differences, but I know there is a relationship in principle)

Sykavy,

Excellent!! The first link is relevant here and in the EMS forum. There is a lot to learn here for beginners as far as how the different GEOMETRIES affect the behavior of different motors. This is a primary theme in my EMS DVD.

The second link seems to be limited to Members Only. I do not encourage pirating restricted material, so i guess the rest of us can't view this, but at least you can see that Switched Reluctance Motors are very powerful and rising in popularity.

Thanks for the links.

Peter

sykavy
03-18-2008, 07:49 PM
Sykavy,

Excellent!! The first link is relevant here and in the EMS forum. There is a lot to learn here for beginners as far as how the different GEOMETRIES affect the behavior of different motors. This is a primary theme in my EMS DVD.

The second link seems to be limited to Members Only. I do not encourage pirating restricted material, so i guess the rest of us can't view this, but at least you can see that Switched Reluctance Motors are very powerful and rising in popularity.

Thanks for the links.

Peter

Sorry I posted it at school so maybe I have access that others dont but here are some relevant quotes from The American Society of Mechanical Engineers in Febuary 1998 (blue are quotes):

"Locomotives in the early 19th century were the first machines to use variable-switched-reluctance (VSR) motors. "They did not perform satisfactorily," said George Holling, president of Advanced Motion Controls (AMC) in Princeton, Wis., "and they soon faded into obscurity."


But with the advent of new and better switching controls they are making a come back:

"The Department of Defense has pursued VSR-motor applications aggressively. The motors are now used in such military applications as generators for turbine engines and pump motors for jet fighters. Military planners and researchers liked the technology mainly because of their high reliability...."


"A four-phase, 1/2-horsepower variable-switched-reluctance motor, used in applications such as electric motor scooters and industrial fans, can run at more than 90-percent efficiency"

"A barrier to the rapid commercialization of VSR motors has been that few engineers are trained to perform the exacting and specialized design the technology requires."


They said that SR motors are durable, reliable, and could be improved with time.

"With the appropriate switching and energization of the stator coils, the rotor can be encouraged to rotate at any desired speed and torque.... It can maintain higher torque and efficiency over broader speed ranges than is possible with other advanced variable-speed systems....The optimal waveforms needed to excite a VSR motor...are typically the result of a fixed voltage applied to the motor coils at predetermined rotor angles. Such waveforms can be achieved at virtually any speed....


There are other pros and cons but efficiency is not one of them. By recycling the counter emf what was a draw back in typical AC/DC motors can be used as an added benefit in SR motors.

"VSR motors are not without their drawbacks, however. The most significant downside is the acoustic noise and large vibrations often caused by the motor's high pulsating magnetic flux."

"Another limitation is torque ripple. It can be difficult to give VSR motors a smooth torque profile...If torque ripple is of primary concern, the best alternative might be a permanent magnet motor instead."



"VSR motors work with relatively small air gaps. If the shaft is off-center, unbalanced tangential forces come into play, so shafts and bearing systems generally need to be of a higher quality than with other motors. Various motor designers are working on designs to widen the air gap."

"The adoption and proliferation of VSR motors is about 15 years behind brushless motors," said Dan Jones, a Thousand Oaks, Calif., consultant to the motion-control industry. "However, it appears that they are experiencing the same acceleration curve as permanent magnet motor. Although they will never be ideally suited for all applications, they are emerging as a viable competitor to ac induction motors and permanent magnet motors."

Those were some main points from the article.

PS here is something interesting the writer described the rotor with teeth. Teeth could make for stronger torque.
"Basically, the motor is a rotor and stator with a coil winding in the stator. The rotor, which consists of a laminated permeable material with teeth, is a passive device with no coil winding or permanent magnets."

Aaron
03-18-2008, 08:09 PM
Check out the Johann Grander thread. It is on a reluctance motor. I knew people who visited him in Austria and said they saw a giant version that runs itself and generates enough power to power the entire village. I don't know how accurate that is.

ashtweth
03-19-2008, 11:59 PM
Hi all,

Okay, sorry. I haven't had time to keep up ATM. Now peter thanks for the comments i happen to like you too. How ever in this practice we are yet to have a research center with qualified validated results, This is what i am pushing for. The engineers who put the comps data together have done it by their lab and meters and tests. I am working towards a more formal presentation, yes i said i would clean it up for YOU. But i cannot produce this over night. I understand what your saying and have always moved towards it, hence why you have what you have in the comps so far :)

The Drill and water pump is sufficient to suffice for now by showing the DRAW comparisons with the NORMAL 3/4 HP motors. Dont forget to add in a higher rated motor run at 1/4 of the voltage with a Freq Gen and tune the caps if the load changes then you have the non waste full and or energy saving RV.(Not just a Variac run Drill).

The advanced circuits are being up graded/Tested. Don't forget what RV mode is in with a Frequency Gen. You are leaving it out. Also there are many different ways the RV is different (in practice not principle)to your variac way, when you load your Drill with 1/4 of your voltage, you DONT TUNE IT WITH CAPS UNDER CONSTANT LOAD CONDITIONS. The RV energy saving = 1/4 frequency driven and tuned with caps CONSTANTLY to the needs of the load.

The Advanced RLC way is different ofcause. This is the Rv energy saving way, you call it not wasting energy and is fine, we call it more efficient, but who cares about semantics Peter :). We are a forums of tinkers and not at the noble prize place yet :). Adding the caps to the needs of the load and frequency driving a higher rated motor to the RV comp author engineers, is impedance matching, matching the source to the needs of the load, and the advanced circuits are about that. Again i stated in the early posts not to let this [Jargon] GET to you, just if you need to understand it, then ask away, and l clean up a version for YOU.

The Engineers who have done it can tell you it saves ALLOT of energy that's enough for me to publish what there is in the compilations. Again If we had your drill under a variac, with just adjusting the voltage that would be fine but is not RV mode.With the RV, we would run a bigger motor at 1/4 of the voltage, Freq drive it and tune it TO THE NEEDS OF THE LOAD , at every load we do. Slightly different.

I am sorry we don't have a research center with grants and equipment yet tailored specifically for alternative and suppressed energy :). I am putting together demos with our press and grant, sponsors for this to happen(under my non profit org i work for).Yes mart if your near peter you could take him an RV to do the research i have asked Koneheadx to work with peter and show him.

Also for Peter since i was being BARKED at :)

>Do the science correctly, and you will see what it is. Then report the experimental results to the rest of us, in a language we understand. Then we will know the facts as well.

What we have done can be verified by any one given our tools, We don't have a university lab to do this at this time, so this is not needed constructive criticism at this time (i am aware of this) we are all aware of what can convince skeptics who don't build, perhaps you should build it your self and experiment :").

Trafo = transformers, a FAQ is available in the EVGRAY forum showing these terms.
Plus a "single phase SCh in the energy saving comp" = we have a single phase RV SCHematic in the energy saving compilation

Ash

Ps, and ye i am aware peter probabaly is foaming at the mouth and steam is coming out of his ears at this time., but be kind to your students and fans , its the best they can do for now) :)

theremart
03-20-2008, 12:32 AM
Well, he would have no rest from questions :) Well, it is sorta like that now :rolleyes:

Yes I live in Fort Wayne, IN, Not sure where Peter is, but would love to have him do the measurements.

Thanks for your well thought out reply Peter, we have the same goals of finding the best and simplest methods of increasing efficiency, and getting the most for the energy put in, and having a common way to express that.

Mart

ashtweth
03-20-2008, 12:41 AM
>But the economics of replacing all single-phase motors with large 3-phase motors that are wired this way, and remounting them in your appliances MAY NOT be worth all of the time, money and effort simply for the energy saved.

Hi Peter,

I have to disagree, i know some one who runs Hydroponic pumps on his farm(s), He saves 3000 dollars a quarter since running his 1HP pumps in RV mode, the bigger motors have paved off in a year and now saves him energy.'(remember our planet) . It also saves him MONEY due to how much energy they save on a large scale. In fact he runs SOME of them solar now, as some of them have to idle at different times, before he could not do this.

Your comments might be mathematical to SOME to a degree, but not relevant to ALL, in fact i suggest people don't worry about money even if it is the case, and SAVE energy and our planet. This is more ethical and towards the education to build a better "Human" :) I say if you can save energy NOW, do it, Help save our planet no matter what cost.

Also if you added up the energy in an industrial Drill place, the ANNUAL energy saved per year is amazing. Also the SOLAR aspect (which is what Peter is leaving out) is amazing too. You can Run 1HP appliances under a FEASBLE solar application. Before your 1HP variable load application would run down on a 120Watt panel, not in RV mode.

So it depends, for those that want off the Grid for GOOD, its a tiny sacrifice for a solar shop.

Ash

Peter Lindemann
03-20-2008, 03:01 AM
Well, he would have no rest from questions :) Well, it is sorta like that now :rolleyes:

Yes I live in Fort Wayne, IN, Not sure where Peter is, but would love to have him do the measurements.

Thanks for your well thought out reply Peter, we have the same goals of finding the best and simplest methods of increasing efficiency, and getting the most for the energy put in, and having a common way to express that.

Mart

Mart,

Thanks for the offer. I'd love to test your unit. Unfortunately, I live near Spokane, Washington, a mere 2000 miles from Fort Wayne, Indiana. But building your own dynamometer is simple and cheap! All you need is a tachometer, a wheel with a known circumference attached to the shaft of the motor, two spring scales and a leather strap. I show everything in my EMS DVD. Other than the cost of the tachometer, the total cost is about $25. If you want to understand the efficiency of the motor, its a great investment.

Peter

Peter Lindemann
03-20-2008, 04:50 AM
Hi all,

Okay, sorry. I haven't had time to keep up ATM. Now peter thanks for the comments i happen to like you too. How ever in this practice we are yet to have a research center with qualified validated results, This is what i am pushing for. The engineers who put the comps data together have done it by their lab and meters and tests. I am working towards a more formal presentation, yes i said i would clean it up for YOU. But i cannot produce this over night. I understand what your saying and have always moved towards it, hence why you have what you have in the comps so far :)

The Drill and water pump is sufficient to suffice for now by showing the DRAW comparisons with the NORMAL 3/4 HP motors. Dont forget to add in a higher rated motor run at 1/4 of the voltage with a Freq Gen and tune the caps if the load changes then you have the non waste full and or energy saving RV.(Not just a Variac run Drill).

The advanced circuits are being up graded/Tested. Don't forget what RV mode is in with a Frequency Gen. You are leaving it out. Also there are many different ways the RV is different (in practice not principle)to your variac way, when you load your Drill with 1/4 of your voltage, you DONT TUNE IT WITH CAPS UNDER CONSTANT LOAD CONDITIONS. The RV energy saving = 1/4 frequency driven and tuned with caps CONSTANTLY to the needs of the load.

The Advanced RLC way is different ofcause. This is the Rv energy saving way, you call it not wasting energy and is fine, we call it more efficient, but who cares about semantics Peter :). We are a forums of tinkers and not at the noble prize place yet :). Adding the caps to the needs of the load and frequency driving a higher rated motor to the RV comp author engineers, is impedance matching, matching the source to the needs of the load, and the advanced circuits are about that. Again i stated in the early posts not to let this [Jargon] GET to you, just if you need to understand it, then ask away, and l clean up a version for YOU.

The Engineers who have done it can tell you it saves ALLOT of energy that's enough for me to publish what there is in the compilations. Again If we had your drill under a variac, with just adjusting the voltage that would be fine but is not RV mode.With the RV, we would run a bigger motor at 1/4 of the voltage, Freq drive it and tune it TO THE NEEDS OF THE LOAD , at every load we do. Slightly different.

I am sorry we don't have a research center with grants and equipment yet tailored specifically for alternative and suppressed energy :). I am putting together demos with our press and grant, sponsors for this to happen(under my non profit org i work for).Yes mart if your near peter you could take him an RV to do the research i have asked Koneheadx to work with peter and show him.

Also for Peter since i was being BARKED at :)

>Do the science correctly, and you will see what it is. Then report the experimental results to the rest of us, in a language we understand. Then we will know the facts as well.

What we have done can be verified by any one given our tools, We don't have a university lab to do this at this time, so this is not needed constructive criticism at this time (i am aware of this) we are all aware of what can convince skeptics who don't build, perhaps you should build it your self and experiment :").

Trafo = transformers, a FAQ is available in the EVGRAY forum showing these terms.
Plus a "single phase SCh in the energy saving comp" = we have a single phase RV SCHematic in the energy saving compilation

Ash

Ps, and ye i am aware peter probabaly is foaming at the mouth and steam is coming out of his ears at this time., but be kind to your students and fans , its the best they can do for now) :)

Ash,

I guess I am just a little bit frustrated at the level of commitment you are exhibiting to maintaining the RV project in a state of confusion and scientific ambiguity. The cost and difficulty of building a dynamometer is very low, and the claiming that you can't do it until your non-profit is funded seems unnecessarily unreasonable. I apologize if it seemed I was "barking" at you.

As a cost saving, energy saving method, the RV process has proved itself, over and over. This is not in question. We all agree on this.

My contention is that similar energy savings and cost savings can be had by applying the same methods to single phase motors as well. In other words, if you take any single phase induction motor, loosen up the bearings, run it on reduced voltage through a variable frequency power supply, and Power Factor Correct it for the final load, you will find similar energy savings and cost reductions for operating your appliance as you see in the RV. To say that these energy savings ONLY appear when you rewire 3-phase motors in the RV mode is simply not true.

My other contention is that these changes to the method of motor operation DO NOT change the underlying efficiency of the motor. These methods are "power management" methods and do not affect the PHYSICS of how the motor converts electrical energy into magnetic energy into mechanical energy!

The RV method DOES:
1) eliminate 98% of wasted energy
2) allow the circuitry to produce 100% of the Reactive Power the motor requires, thereby lowering the amount of Apparent Power required from the source
3) reduce mechanical friction by loosening up the bearings
4) reduce electrical input requirements even more by running the motor on reduced voltage.
5) convert the fixed speed induction motor into a variable speed motor whose output can be speed optimized for running the load

The effect of all of these modifications is that the motor is running "lean and mean" and very efficiently. It is ALSO running in a REDUCED mechanical capacity, so that a motor that was originally rated for 5 Horse Power is only capable of producing about 1/4th of this much mechanical energy after the modifications. So, it IS drawing a lot less electrical energy, but it is also producing a lot less mechanical energy. This is what I mean. The over-all efficiency of the electrical to mechanical conversion rate in the motor HAS NOT CHANGED.

In the end, as long as the amount of mechanical energy the motor produces is ENOUGH for the specific application, its just fine. But there is nothing magical about the 5 HP Baldor Motor. These are UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLES, and can be applied to all induction motors with similar results.

I'm glad your friend with the hydroponic gardens has saved a lot of money. You have provided him with a great service. Perhaps if you had known more, you might have been able to convert the motors he had to these methods, and even saved him the cost of buying the new motors.

And finally, like you, I think people SHOULD make energy saving decisions, even if they cost more. This is an attitude of an affluent society that needs to tighten its belt. Wasting energy has become a habit of unconsciousness, and we ALL need to wake up to how little energy we really need to accomplish our necessary tasks. More than 80% of the energy we purchase on a daily basis does NOT go to the purposes we bought it for. This is true of our automobiles, light sources that produce mostly heat, appliances that are still ON when they look like they are OFF, and the list continues inconveniently for a long time.... We are all participating in an unsustainable waste of energy resources, and we all have to learn to do better.

If the RV project addresses some of this, I am all for it.

Peter

ashtweth
03-20-2008, 06:11 AM
Hi Peter , We have always said you can RV a single phase and or three phase motor, that is stated in the compilations, sorry about confusing you:) .

It comes down to my time for the revised and clearer version and prony breaks. Mean time i don't mind picking up the tab for Mart if he wants to prony break it mart? I have 4 projects ATM plus have to updates sites, edit videos and do promos, so don't have allot of time i ATM sorry peter but will get it done .:)

Am doing my best to get the standard you require just have to wait for me ATM . I am making a new video with all the themes you state (RV video) and will clarify all the jargon in it. Mean time we are getting some advanced SG inverter circuits and a double neon for that reactive power.

so hope to have some R and D to get you thining in 2 weeks.

Ash

theremart
03-20-2008, 12:38 PM
It comes down to my time for the revised and clearer version and prony breaks. Mean time i don't mind picking up the tab for Mart if he wants to prony break it mart? I have 4 projects ATM plus have to updates sites, edit videos and do promos, so don't have allot of time i ATM sorry peter but will get it done .:)

Ash

I guess for a prony break I need

1. A leather strap may need to get this ( $10.00 )

2. 2 scales to tension this strap ( Need to order this $? ) Now if what Master RV Ash says is true, I will scales for a 1 1/4 horse power motor as this is a 5 HP motor.

3. Regulated power supply ( I have this is very old but works have double checked it with my other meters)

4. An additional wheel at idealy cut at 1 foot circumference to make measuring easier for the shaft of the motor. ($?)

5. A tach meter ( I have this )

6. Six hands to do all at the same time like Peter does he he, I could enlist the help of a friend. ( cost of a pizza $ 10.00 )

7. Video of this and put on youtube ( free, I have the camera and the motivation to do this.

-------------------------------------

Peter Lindemann
03-20-2008, 03:59 PM
I guess for a prony break I need

1. A leather strap may need to get this ( $10.00 )

2. 2 scales to tension this strap ( Need to order this $? ) Now if what Master RV Ash says is true, I will scales for a 1 1/4 horse power motor as this is a 5 HP motor.

3. Regulated power supply ( I have this is very old but works have double checked it with my other meters)

4. An additional wheel at idealy cut at 1 foot circumference to make measuring easier for the shaft of the motor. ($?)

5. A tach meter ( I have this )

6. Six hands to do all at the same time like Peter does he he, I could enlist the help of a friend. ( cost of a pizza $ 10.00 )

7. Video of this and put on youtube ( free, I have the camera and the motivation to do this.

-------------------------------------

Mart,

The calibrated spring scales I got at Edmund Scientific. Here's the link: Dual Calibration Spring Scales - Science Gifts - Edmund Scientific (http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp?pn=3001000&cmss=spring+scales)

Buy two of each of the 1Kg, 3Kg, and 5Kg scales. With that, you'll be ready for anything.

The leather strap needs to be SOFT leather, like un-dyed suede. I got mine at a craft store, but there are lots of options here.

The wheel I have always made on a lathe. Pick a material that the leather strap slides on easily. The black wheel I show in my DVD is made of Delrin, and it works really well. I have also made wheels of acrylic that work fine. But less expensive materials can also work, like a nice hardwood, like Oak. Just know that if the surface is too aggressive, it won't work.

It seems like you have seen the DVD (me with six hands) so you've got all the math. By the way, pizza and a friend is a better way!:rofl:

For the input measurement, use your Kill-A-Watt meter, set to WATTS.

In the DVD, I show the method for testing a DC traction motor. For your AC induction motor, its slightly different. The dynamometer test of the AC motor will not slow the motor down by more than 5%, whereas the test of the DC traction motor showed a significant slow down in RPMs. This has to do with the different ways these motors produce torque.

When you get everything together, we can talk on the phone, if you would like.

Great work, Mart.:cheers:

Peter

Peter Lindemann
03-20-2008, 04:09 PM
Hi Peter , We have always said you can RV a single phase and or three phase motor, that is stated in the compilations, sorry about confusing you:) .

It comes down to my time for the revised and clearer version and prony breaks. Mean time i don't mind picking up the tab for Mart if he wants to prony break it mart? I have 4 projects ATM plus have to updates sites, edit videos and do promos, so don't have allot of time i ATM sorry peter but will get it done .:)

Am doing my best to get the standard you require just have to wait for me ATM . I am making a new video with all the themes you state (RV video) and will clarify all the jargon in it. Mean time we are getting some advanced SG inverter circuits and a double neon for that reactive power.

so hope to have some R and D to get you thining in 2 weeks.

Ash

Ash,

I can see that you are busy, so please don't take my posts as if I was applying a hot poker to you.:rofl: And these aren't the standards "I" require. They are the standards YOU require if you plan to educate others to the efficacy of the RV method.

I'll work with Mart over here to get a definitive dynamometer test of his motor.

I look forward to seeing all of your new videos and information compilations.

No worries, Mate!:cheers:

Peter

ashtweth
03-22-2008, 09:23 AM
I see Peter speaks Aussie Slang:D . Thanks mate, am re writing all the comps and putting together a Video Script ATM. Shouldn't be too much longer. I am also going to talk to a technical TAFE (Australian university) to see if we can Hi jack their Dyno:rofl: , looking forward to comparing yours and Marts with ours.

Ash

theremart
03-22-2008, 12:28 PM
Peter,

How hard would it be for you to get me the cost of making a wheel for the motor? I am working on getting a total for the wheel, and if you have someone that you know who could do this and ship it to me I think that is a way that I would like to explore. I really want to do this right, and I think you know what we need to do to get this done right.

Thanks

mart

Peter Lindemann
03-22-2008, 02:39 PM
Peter,

How hard would it be for you to get me the cost of making a wheel for the motor? I am working on getting a total for the wheel, and if you have someone that you know who could do this and ship it to me I think that is a way that I would like to explore. I really want to do this right, and I think you know what we need to do to get this done right.

Thanks

mart

Mart,

I could make you one on my lathe. What is the shaft diameter of your motor?

Peter

theremart
03-22-2008, 05:42 PM
I put a rule on it and I measured 1 and 1/8 inch.

According to baldor web sight it is 1.125

http://www.baldor.com/DMS/documents/36LYA003.pdf?url=http%253a%252f%252fdmshq01%253a10 95%252f%252fCache%252fCSProxyCache.dll%253fget%252 6forward%253dhqdms%25253A1090%25252FContentServer% 25252FContentServer.dll%25253F%2526pVersion%253d00 46%2526contRep%253dZMARKETING%2526docId%253d459D63 6A3D641887E10000002047AF7A%2526compId%253d36LYA003 .pdf

So doing my math 1/8 = .125

So 1 and 1/8th inch seems to be the correct diameter.


P.S. How do you normal hold these on? do you drill a holding screw? I have a metal chuck but have never put one of these together.

mart

Peter Lindemann
03-22-2008, 07:37 PM
I put a rule on it and I measured 1 and 1/8 inch.

According to baldor web sight it is 1.125

http://www.baldor.com/DMS/documents/36LYA003.pdf?url=http%253a%252f%252fdmshq01%253a10 95%252f%252fCache%252fCSProxyCache.dll%253fget%252 6forward%253dhqdms%25253A1090%25252FContentServer% 25252FContentServer.dll%25253F%2526pVersion%253d00 46%2526contRep%253dZMARKETING%2526docId%253d459D63 6A3D641887E10000002047AF7A%2526compId%253d36LYA003 .pdf

So doing my math 1/8 = .125

So 1 and 1/8th inch seems to be the correct diameter.


P.S. How do you normal hold these on? do you drill a holding screw? I have a metal chuck but have never put one of these together.

mart

Mart,

1.125" sounds like the right dimension. I'll put a set screw in the wheel so you can tighten it down on the shaft. Right now, the biggest problem is that I don't have any drills for my lathe that large. The biggest one I have in my little shop is 1". Right now, i don't have a decent boring bar set, either. Maybe I can get John to help. He has a much bigger shop and 10 times more tools than me. I'll figure something out in the next week.

Peter

theremart
03-25-2008, 12:12 PM
Hi Peter,

Please check your private mail here on this board.

thanks

ashtweth
04-16-2008, 10:40 AM
Hi All, here is the START of the new format as requested by Peter, great new direction and thanks to mart and peter we should have a presentable respectful document soon.

All the tests are coming and are being added in there, the new out lay states as such too. Plus also i am getting to the existing comps and gonna chop them up into some thing we can digest properly;)

New videos coming too (minus the CHE shirt:thumbsup: :D )
goto the Panaceauniversity.org site The RV doc is up.

More to come.

Ash

theremart
04-16-2008, 02:10 PM
Good deal Ash,

Look forward to your new flick. I also hope we can gather the necessary tools to test the RV torque.

I took a look at my air conditioner and I already found capacitors on it. The video you have of the air conditioner unit was a wall unit, mine is an outdoor one, but I did find a LARGE dust build up on the filter that should greatly increase performance.

I have bought about 20 oil filled ac Caps ( got them for $2.00 a piece ) so, I may try to test out different cap configs on each of the motors. it is at 220V so I guess I am unable to use my killa watt to test voltage but I could use my meter...

Mart

ashtweth
04-17-2008, 10:37 AM
Mart, BE CAREFUL WITH YOUR CAPACITORS SWITCHES, MAKE SURE THEY HAVE A TOLERANCE OR YOU WILL GET ZAPPED(BEMF)

:beamup:

theremart
04-17-2008, 01:04 PM
Mart, BE CAREFUL WITH YOUR CAPACITORS SWITCHES, MAKE SURE THEY HAVE A TOLERANCE OR YOU WILL GET ZAPPED(BEMF)

:beamup:

Good advice, they are rated at over 660 V Kone says that as long as they are over the rating I should be good.

Thanks for the advice.

aadee92
04-22-2008, 02:28 AM
Hello Everyone,

Ive been working on the rotoverter for several months, and entered it in my hometown science fair (i'm 15). It's been going pretty good, ive got 8 times more reactive power from the alternator than i have true power going into the Prime Mover. I heard that by using transformers you can extract or transform this reactive power to true power; but only 2 of the transformers came in, and as it is, i cant extract very much of this power, but i did melt a FWBR, that's encouraging. I'm trying to get this working to the extent of looping it before state science fair.

theremart
04-22-2008, 03:07 AM
Tomorrow I will try to loop the RV... or at least set the stage for it.

I will put an car alternator on the end of the prime mover, and see if it can reach 2000 RPM... If it does it should be able to supply the power to the primary battery. After that replacing that with a capacitor bank should do the trick.

I have tested this on my 2 cycle generator, and it has enough power to run / start the RV. However the noise is a killer.

Need sleep now... :rolleyes:

ashtweth
04-22-2008, 04:06 AM
Aha, man a 15 year old is trying to loop an RV this is one cool day:D :thumbsup: , i ma gonna show Hector this post, you know we really should also look into Eric Dollards/Peters recommendations as well.

theremart
04-22-2008, 08:11 PM
Well it was spinning at 3200 RPM today, but I am unable to get it kick in...

I must be not doing something right on wiring it... :(

theremart
04-23-2008, 06:20 PM
I did some research and i found that I needed a resistor in series with the coil.

Great info found here...
Using an Alternator in Renewable Energy Projects (http://web.media.mit.edu/~nathan/nepal/ghatta/alternator.html)

The alternator seems to be TOO much for the rotoverter not enough torque when the coils are engaged.

Mart

aadee92
04-23-2008, 10:04 PM
are there any recommendations to the cap sizes for the schematic that WAS on "theverylastpageoftheinternet.com" They all have a "? mfd" would a 50 mfd work, 100mfd capacitors??

ashtweth
04-24-2008, 01:44 AM
Doh double post!

ashtweth
04-24-2008, 01:47 AM
Hi aadee and Mart


Okay, first of all that looping Schematic requires allot of tunning and empirical exploration , i have been researching, building and testing the RV for over 4 years and as a result of our open source engineers we have many practical energy saving circuits form it.

Two engineers in particular , Ed and Gene have spent allot of money trying to bring us some results based on that Sch, we are up too resonating the transformers and trying ti match impedances. (its not easy). Also Thanks to peter we have new ideas on how to extract the reactive power.

What you will have to do is READ ALL OF THIS COMPILATION, (4 years in the making) to see where we are up too.
http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/Advanced%20RV%20Research%20and%20development.pdf

Now, Mart, the RV will run that alternator if you adjust the voltage or Frequency, You need to get a frequency drive to give it more grunt. There are also RLC (which is what you need for looping) Ideas in the compilation mentioned.

Now the start caps vary for each motor, depending on what motor size you have a good rule of thumb is 120uf.thumb is 120uf.

theremart
04-24-2008, 11:28 AM
Ok has anyone ran an alternator before with the RV, if so what size?

Thanks Ash.

mart

Peter Lindemann
04-24-2008, 04:42 PM
I did some research and i found that I needed a resistor in series with the coil.

Great info found here...
Using an Alternator in Renewable Energy Projects (http://web.media.mit.edu/~nathan/nepal/ghatta/alternator.html)

The alternator seems to be TOO much for the rotoverter not enough torque when the coils are engaged.

Mart

Mart,

Yes, this is what I have been trying to tell people. When the current is restricted to the RV in the motor mode, the electric input goes down, BUT SO DOES THE MECHANICAL OUTPUT! A standard automobile alternator is NOT very efficient, and has significant drag from hysteresis even BEFORE producing any output current. (That is why they run so HOT in your car.) When these "real loads" are applied, the RV motor cannot respond to produce more torque, because its input current is limited by the capacitors and the reduced run voltage. The RV systems that are saving people money are designed to run a specific, fixed load, and the system is tuned to do that. It cannot respond to a variable load without being thrown out of its "operating window".

Peter

Chip Shorter
04-24-2008, 05:08 PM
It takes a few horsepower to run an alternator. Depending on the fla I would say 15-20 for a modern automotive say 130 amp alternator. I can get back with some real numbers for certain series alternators but generally thats the deal.

theremart
04-24-2008, 06:41 PM
ok...

I think I was introducing some how TOO much load on the alternator at one time. If I could figure out how to downgrade the load to match the output to a fixed point, that matched the RV, plus a small load I think I would have something. ( see next post for HP calculation )

I think I will pull my wheel off my SSG with the wind generator and try it on the RV. I could then tune the alternator for a fixed point of voltage.

It is just now I have to be much much more careful about the balance of the magnets turning at 3200 RPM is a new ball game. Will enclose this in a box...

maybe I could embed the magnets into a wood wheel.... or cast a resin mold for the magnets...

Before I invest in a frequency generator, I believe I need to know who has built one, and how much more horsepower this will put out.

BTW I have pulled the hood off of my Air conditioner unit, I found tons of dust on the screen, getting this off alone will help tons on the cooling costs...

I hope to lubricate each of the motors in the AC unit and see if I can measure how much voltage is going to each.

Mart

theremart
04-24-2008, 07:17 PM
Calculation for an alternator horsepower...
FAQ (http://www.hotrodssuperstore.com/faq.html)

How much horsepower loss
will an alternator cost ?

As was stated in the answer to the first question, an alternator is a power converter. It converts mechanical power into electrical power. So it doesn't lose power, but rather changes its form. No electrical motor or generator is 100% efficient and this is true of alternators as well. Alternators are about 85% efficient with power being lost in the form of heat and wind resistance (cooling fans). Thus the real power loss of the alternator is relatively small.

How much horsepower does an alternator pull ? You can mathematically determine the horsepower cost at any given load. (Remember, alternators respond to load. If there is no load present the alternator is basically freewheeling.)

Amps x Volts = Watts
Watts / 745.7 (one HP) = Electrical HP Produced by the Alternator
HP x 15% Efficiency Loss = HP Loss
HP + HP Loss = Total HP Used

Example:
57A x 14.9V = 849.3 Watts
849.3 Watts / 745.7 = 1.14 HP
1.14 HP x 15% = 0.17 HP
1.14 + 0.17 = 1.31 HP Total

Now we know the cost to run the electrical system. The most important question is what is the payback ? Which way does the horsepower benefit you ? How much horsepower are you currently losing because of low electrical system voltage ?

Peter Lindemann
04-24-2008, 08:21 PM
Calculation for an alternator horsepower...
FAQ (http://www.hotrodssuperstore.com/faq.html)

How much horsepower loss
will an alternator cost ?

As was stated in the answer to the first question, an alternator is a power converter. It converts mechanical power into electrical power. So it doesn't lose power, but rather changes its form. No electrical motor or generator is 100% efficient and this is true of alternators as well. Alternators are about 85% efficient with power being lost in the form of heat and wind resistance (cooling fans). Thus the real power loss of the alternator is relatively small.

How much horsepower does an alternator pull ? You can mathematically determine the horsepower cost at any given load. (Remember, alternators respond to load. If there is no load present the alternator is basically freewheeling.)

Amps x Volts = Watts
Watts / 745.7 (one HP) = Electrical HP Produced by the Alternator
HP x 15% Efficiency Loss = HP Loss
HP + HP Loss = Total HP Used

Example:
57A x 14.9V = 849.3 Watts
849.3 Watts / 745.7 = 1.14 HP
1.14 HP x 15% = 0.17 HP
1.14 + 0.17 = 1.31 HP Total

Now we know the cost to run the electrical system. The most important question is what is the payback ? Which way does the horsepower benefit you ? How much horsepower are you currently losing because of low electrical system voltage ?

Mart,

These statements about the efficiency of alternators are pure "parrot chips"! You can prove it to yourself easily. Just take a standard AC motor (something you can plug into your Kill-A-Watt meter) and use it to turn an alternator. Make sure you set it up so you can control the strength of the magnetic field on the rotor with an external power supply. Spin up the assembly with the Alternator field winding UNENERGIZED and record how much power it takes. Then, without connecting a load to the output, start turning ON the field windings. You will see that the stronger the magnetic field of the rotor, the more DRAG the Alternator produces. This is the Hysteresis Drag I was referring to. This LOSS cannot be recovered at any time, and is converted to HEAT in the stator core. Besides this loss, you have wind resistance, brush friction, bearing friction, and the standard Back EMF (reverse motoring effects) of electricity production.

The point is, the losses in a standard Alternator are significant, and (I believe) higher than what are stated in the normal literature. Efficiencies of 70% or lower are more likely than the stated 85%.

So, since the RV is COP<1 and the Alternator is COP<1, connecting them together CAN NOT create a self-running system. So, please, run the experiment. See for yourself. And, be done with it. That this myth still persists has been a huge waste of time for honest, yet under-educated experimenters. Let's put it to rest, right here!

Peter

theremart
04-25-2008, 03:43 AM
Mart,

These statements about the efficiency of alternators are pure "parrot chips"! You can prove it to yourself easily. Just take a standard AC motor (something you can plug into your Kill-A-Watt meter) and use it to turn an alternator. Make sure you set it up so you can control the strength of the magnetic field on the rotor with an external power supply. Spin up the assembly with the Alternator field winding UNENERGIZED and record how much power it takes. Then, without connecting a load to the output, start turning ON the field windings. You will see that the stronger the magnetic field of the rotor, the more DRAG the Alternator produces. This is the Hysteresis Drag I was referring to. This LOSS cannot be recovered at any time, and is converted to HEAT in the stator core. Besides this loss, you have wind resistance, brush friction, bearing friction, and the standard Back EMF (reverse motoring effects) of electricity production.

The point is, the losses in a standard Alternator are significant, and (I believe) higher than what are stated in the normal literature. Efficiencies of 70% or lower are more likely than the stated 85%.

So, since the RV is COP<1 and the Alternator is COP<1, connecting them together CAN NOT create a self-running system. So, please, run the experiment. See for yourself. And, be done with it. That this myth still persists has been a huge waste of time for honest, yet under-educated experimenters. Let's put it to rest, right here!

Peter
--------------------------------

Peter,

It does start to make sense to me after I realized the alternator was just like my windmill generator. The more you demand of the alternator the greater the torque that is put on the motor, I infer because of the greater magnetic fields that are created.

This has been a learning process for me. I admit I am a mere child trying to find his way around in the dark.

I do not have an electric motor to test the alternator, nor do I have the alternator, it was returned to the store and I got my money back :)
I am glad for this experience for I have learned a good deal more about alternators and their limits.

Onward to my Air condition system.... to see if the caps are tuned to the load, and to oil the motors for savings for the summer to come.

Mart

aadee92
04-29-2008, 12:29 AM
So nobody has looped the RV? And it "cant" be done??

theremart
04-29-2008, 01:17 AM
So nobody has looped the RV? And it "cant" be done??

Ash says yes, Peter says no, but wants to have a test done to get to the real answers of how much torque this really has.. Ash has agreed to put up the bill for the test, but money is tight for Ash now.

All I have done is make a prime mover, but have not added all the fancy other stuff that supposed to make it even more better. My adding an alternator was my idea, not Ash's... or Peter's... and is not a standard RV.

I am going to hold off till Ash comes thru with the $ for testing, then I will test my RV and have a much better idea of what I can attach to it to generate energy... Till then I am going to be working on my other projects Air conditioner / Bedini / Alcohol still / geet...

Peace.

ashtweth
04-29-2008, 08:04 AM
Mart, you can run your RV with more torque but as stated a zillion times before you will need a FREQUENCY DRIVE to get your shaft HP up.

Now i have reports from Hector stating that Looping is possible from that Sch, certainly if you can extract a portion of the reactive power it is certainly with in our grasp. It takes allot of tunning, so far we are still prodding away and injecting new ideas WHILST testing and refining the old.

I suggest you read the Frequency drive part in the energy saving compilation to see how you can easily hack an existing inverter for proper RV operation with your Alt.

Ash

theremart
04-29-2008, 11:33 AM
Mart, you can run your RV with more torque but as stated a zillion times before you will need a FREQUENCY DRIVE to get your shaft HP up.

Now i have reports from Hector stating that Looping is possible from that Sch, certainly if you can extract a portion of the reactive power it is certainly with in our grasp. It takes allot of tunning, so far we are still prodding away and injecting new ideas WHILST testing and refining the old.

I suggest you read the Frequency drive part in the energy saving compilation to see how you can easily hack an existing inverter for proper RV operation with your Alt.

Ash

Thanks for replying Ash,

What I lack is the technical skill that Hector has, I do not wish to spend my life working on something that I have no tangible evidence of performance. Or not be able to get it to work due my my lack of technical expertise.

Life is short and I have limited resources so I must choose well. I do think Peter has a good train of thought of taking one of the units that have been modified as you suggested and to test them with the test he suggests.

I would be interested in first getting a working device that Hector has working and doing the testing that Peter has suggested getting the amount of torque in documented form with the scale testing method.

To request me a kindergartener at electronics to hack an inverter I believe is out of my ability. I having read the other posts from the EVgray site have found that even the most experienced at this have smoked their inverters.

This raises many red flags to me, as.....

If I was to depend on this unit, how could I get an inverter that would last for a long time?

What exactly am I shooting at? I mean with this be a black hole for you need, the "one more device" to get this working?

I think Peter has a point in that we need all the cards on the table. If as you say the Frequency drive makes a ""Zillion"" times more torque, I need to know how much a Zillion is.

Not shooting bullets at you man, but asking honest questions...

Peace

Peter Lindemann
04-29-2008, 04:31 PM
Mart, you can run your RV with more torque but as stated a zillion times before you will need a FREQUENCY DRIVE to get your shaft HP up.

Now i have reports from Hector stating that Looping is possible from that Sch, certainly if you can extract a portion of the reactive power it is certainly with in our grasp. It takes allot of tunning, so far we are still prodding away and injecting new ideas WHILST testing and refining the old.

I suggest you read the Frequency drive part in the energy saving compilation to see how you can easily hack an existing inverter for proper RV operation with your Alt.

Ash

Ash and Mart,

I agree with Ash, here. An AC induction motor that is power factor corrected AND operated from a variable frequency power supply will have much better performance, and DUE TO the variable frequency supply, the OPERATOR will be able to tune the motor to the load more precisely. Regardless of how good this can be made, the COP of this part of the machine will still be COP<1, due to the function of the Back EMF in the induction motor topology.

Getting one of these systems to "loop" or "run itself and a load" is based on the processes involved in converting some of the captured Reactive Power back into a usable form of energy. We have discussed two methods previously in this thread. The first method was developed by Eric Dollard, and involves using a complex LCR network to phase-shift the current and voltage back into alignment. No one except Eric has accomplished this, and the method remains proprietary. The second method involves using the Reactive Power produced by the RV method as the first stage in a circuit that accomplishes Tesla's "Method of Conversion" for the production of Radiant Energy. There are files in the Panacea library where Hector has reported accomplishing this with some of his circuits. He reported that the "looped" energy easily ran the system, but that it also DRIED OUT THE BATTERY, and so, the experiment could not be sustained. Despite the battery problem, I consider this to be the most important report in the entire RV library, and an all out experimental effort should be pursued to duplicate these results.

The important point here is, that the RV system cannot be "looped" by simply having the RV motor turn a standard, "off-the-shelf" alternator! No one should be suggesting that that should work, and I specifically predict it won't.

So, the question in all of this is........if "looping" is possible, what part of the system is responsible for the real energy gain that makes up for all the losses? Is it the RVing of a motor? Is it simple power factor correction? Is it driving an RV motor with a variable frequency drive? Is it wishful thinking? Is it dumb luck? Or is it TESLA'S METHOD OF CONVERSION for the production of RADIANT ENERGY?

You can guess what my bias is.

Peter

ashtweth
05-01-2008, 04:59 AM
Now thats the PL i am used too:notworthy: :cool:
Well i will try contacting Eric, tha last i heard he was partiicpating on a certian yahoo group but its inactive ATM.

its really so simple to create that reactive power from off the shelf as we know, even the solid state version. So i would be mortified if Eric wouldn't be interested if some some got hold of him.

Now Mart, i cannot tell you EXACTLY how much torque you will get , each one will vary for each motor. I have personally done the freq drive test and found the shaft power under powering PM DC gen went up, ad the amps stayed the same, i still need to get a more powerful Freq drive to do more video's and test on that one.

As Peter says the same laws apply here, you will need LESS capacitance when adjusting your Frequency. Thats brilliantly written and going in the compilations so we can clean this all up better.

Ash

theremart
05-01-2008, 10:34 PM
Ash and Mart,

I agree with Ash, here. An AC induction motor that is power factor corrected AND operated from a variable frequency power supply will have much better performance, and DUE TO the variable frequency supply, the OPERATOR will be able to tune the motor to the load more precisely. Regardless of how good this can be made, the COP of this part of the machine will still be COP<1, due to the function of the Back EMF in the induction motor topology.

Getting one of these systems to "loop" or "run itself and a load" is based on the processes involved in converting some of the captured Reactive Power back into a usable form of energy. We have discussed two methods previously in this thread. The first method was developed by Eric Dollard, and involves using a complex LCR network to phase-shift the current and voltage back into alignment. No one except Eric has accomplished this, and the method remains proprietary. The second method involves using the Reactive Power produced by the RV method as the first stage in a circuit that accomplishes Tesla's "Method of Conversion" for the production of Radiant Energy. There are files in the Panacea library where Hector has reported accomplishing this with some of his circuits. He reported that the "looped" energy easily ran the system, but that it also DRIED OUT THE BATTERY, and so, the experiment could not be sustained. Despite the battery problem, I consider this to be the most important report in the entire RV library, and an all out experimental effort should be pursued to duplicate these results.

The important point here is, that the RV system cannot be "looped" by simply having the RV motor turn a standard, "off-the-shelf" alternator! No one should be suggesting that that should work, and I specifically predict it won't.

So, the question in all of this is........if "looping" is possible, what part of the system is responsible for the real energy gain that makes up for all the losses? Is it the RVing of a motor? Is it simple power factor correction? Is it driving an RV motor with a variable frequency drive? Is it wishful thinking? Is it dumb luck? Or is it TESLA'S METHOD OF CONVERSION for the production of RADIANT ENERGY?

You can guess what my bias is.

Peter

Ok Peter,

Question for you...

I am looking for a DC motor to modify in your way, you stated that one should look for a small gap between the stator and the coils.... ( if memory servers me right ) I wish to look for this sort of motor on ebay so I can build your circuit and hook it up to this motor. Any preferences on brands of motors?

This motor is close to me...

Equipment Resale, Inc. | 00005 Pacific Scientific 1/2 HP 1750 RPM DC Motor (http://www.equipmentresale.com/product.html?id=85000)

Here are its specs...

Pacific Scientific - SR3642-4822-7-56BC-CU PMDC Motor Parameters (http://www.pacsci.com/support/pmdc/TR/4822/4822.html)


I guess another questions is what is the voltage range of your circuit? This will help me have a range of voltage to know for the target motor..

I am also thinking of tracking down a dyson Air motor. It sure seems tempting ready built balanced motor that looks like an optimal design...

Dyson DC07 DC14 Upright Vacuum Cleaner Complete Motor - eBay (item 190202453923 end time May-27-08 13:38:23 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/Dyson-DC07-DC14-Upright-Vacuum-Cleaner-Complete-Motor_W0QQitemZ190202453923QQihZ009QQcategoryZ4214 6QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1 638Q2em118Q2el1247)


----------
This baldor has caught my eye too..

BALDOR INDUSTRIAL DC MOTOR CAT NO CDP3455 - 1HP - eBay (item 130219550977 end time Jun-01-08 07:08:33 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/BALDOR-INDUSTRIAL-DC-MOTOR-CAT-NO-CDP3455-1HP_W0QQitemZ130219550977QQihZ003QQcategoryZ26226Q QrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp163 8Q2em118Q2el1247)

I guess I am trying to find one that I can cut the rotor the easiest...



Not sure if you had anythoughts about it..

Thanks...

Peter Lindemann
05-03-2008, 04:08 AM
Mart,

There is no "off-the-shelf" motor that can be easily converted to a high efficiency attraction motor. There are dozens of details that must be observed to put the machine in the proper operating window. Please do not start this project at this time. if you would like more details, please call me on the phone.

Thanks,

Peter

mskhalil
05-15-2008, 04:02 AM
I have been reading up on it and it seems they recommend certain types of motors.

I am puzzled to know how to wire this I am thinking of getting the two capacitors it requires and trying it.

Part of this is I am going to find a resistor that will help me short these caps, they are to risky to leave with that much voltage on them. I am thinking, I don't have much to loose on this motor, my worst thing I am loosing is time, but I feel I will be gaining experience. Here is a golden opportunity to try something on something I am not afraid to mess up.

that's the sprit
keep working
any help you will find me at ur fingir
:D
http://mskhalil6.googlepages.com/emskhalil.gif

theremart
05-15-2008, 11:31 AM
that's the sprit
keep working
any help you will find me at ur fingir
:D
http://mskhalil6.googlepages.com/emskhalil.gif

Hi Mskhalil,

Have you completed a Rotoverter?

I have finished completing the prime mover. I still need to get a frequency generator, and also, I look forward to Ash working with me to do a torque test on this beast.

Welcome to the forum.

esaruoho
09-24-2008, 11:34 PM
hi.. theremart.. hows your rotoverter experience going?:)

theremart
09-25-2008, 12:12 AM
hi.. theremart.. hows your rotoverter experience going?:)

Roto Verter has been put on hold.

The prime mover is done, what I learned from it was power factor correcting, and also how to tear down a baldor motor and put it all back together again.

I am debating about just selling this motor verses what it will cost for me to get and inverter up and running to get anything out of it.

I do not have the electronic skills to build a proper inverter. ( My intention was a looped self runner )

My thinking is this, perhaps sell this motor, and then use my little 12V to build an 1984 version of a Bedini self running motor from Free energy generation. This would be simpler project for someone of my very basic electronic skills, but I might be able to get help from members of this board.
Oh an ummm yes, my version of this motor WOULD HAVE MAGNETS ON IT :whistle: :whistle: This is just and idea, the problem with this is that I think I would be on my own. I don't think many have built this motor so I would have very little input for it.

I have been putting much effort in correcting my mistakes that I have done in building my Solid State Bedini. That is my next main goal get the SS working. I believe if it was working, then my conditioning of the batteries just might increase multi fold.

I do not say the RV does not work, only that I lack the skills to build it.

Just as I lack the skills to build a monopole energizer that from one battery can charge 3.

I have learned much in this journey, and I don't regret that I have traveled this far.

Cheers

ashtweth
09-25-2008, 12:34 AM
that reminds me, Mart send me your Pay pal, i can chuck ion for the strap/set next pay day finally:rolleyes:

theremart
09-25-2008, 12:59 AM
Ash,

Thanks for the offer, but I have decided that I don't want to test the rotoverter. I think you should find someone that has a fully setup rotoverter like Hector or Kone, or Gene if he makes the breakthru and have those tested.

Peace

ashtweth
09-25-2008, 01:15 AM
Mart, An inverter isn't that hard to hack :) You would need some skills or help to get to the looped set up to test. Is there any guys local to you into electronics?

esaruoho
10-03-2008, 12:58 PM
hi.. just found this, some of you might find it interesting:

CALIFORNIA STATE SCIENCE FAIR - 2008 PROJECT SUMMARY
Name(s) Austin Adee; Alex Thomas
Project Number S0801
Project Title: Rotoverter

Abstract

Objectives/Goals
The objective of our project is to see if electricity can be generated more efficiently than onventional methods. We hypothesize that using two three-phase motors, in a setup a "Rotoverter" electric energy can be generated more efficiently than conventional methods.

Methods/Materials
Materials: A steel U beams, copper wire, capacitors, switches, power meters, two AC three phase squirrel cage motors, Plexiglas, transformers, full wave bridge rectifiers, an inverter, and epoxy are used in our experiment.

Methods: To build our setup; weld the steel U beam in a rectangular configuration; open the electric
motors, and clean the bearings of grease; reverse the casing of one of the two electric motors, and
assemble them back together; wire the motors so that one is an alternator and the other a motor; wire the switches in series to the capacitors, which are parallel to each other; and wire the capacitor banks to motor and alternator.

Results
We successfully found an alternative way to generate electric energy more efficiently than conventional means. In the process of doing this, we generated more reactive power than is consumed. Reactive power can be described as energy that does net value of no work. Achieving a greater amount of reactive power than true power is not a new concept and is accomplished very easily. What's different about the Rotoverter is that we can extract some of this power which is considered imposable by definition. We are not sure how the Rotoverter works, but only that it does produce large amounts of reactive energy that can be extracted on a small scale. There are two probable solutions around this; either get a resistive load to match our resonating output, which in our case would be a 4.5kw light bulb; or get an inductive load such as a transformer, that does not break the resonance of the alternator.

Conclusions/Discussion
As of this moment, we have only produced reactive power, but at a much greater amount than real power
consumed. We have not yet experimented with the two possible solutions mentioned before because of the
lack of materials. Further experimentation may reveal that the reactive power can be extracted.

from http://www.usc.edu/CSSF/Current/Projects/S0801.pdf

---
so here's another "yep, we got some reactive power running in our rotoverter circuit - and it should eventually be extracted" type thing.
what are your thoughts on this, please?

Vortex
10-11-2008, 09:03 AM
Looking at the document:
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/BEMF-Recoil%20Recovery%20Battery%20Charger-%20By%20KoneheadX.pdf

I was hoping to obtain some answers that could avoid a failed attempt
at the beginners project found in this document.

Note‐ if going to radio shack (a store based in the USA) to get a couple
small DC motors, they have only two types ‐ one is an 18,000rpm one, and
the other was a 5000rpm one ‐ Kone purchased a couple 5000 ones, but
thinks that this will be too fast of a speed to do this experiment accurately.
Try to find some DC motors that go at around 900rpm or less so that you can
really nail that "echo" output pulse.

Question 1: DC motors running 1000 rpm or less are "gear" motors.
They use gears to slow down the rpm. This seems to me that it would not
allow the "echo" required to be achieved when linking the 2 motors together.
Is this correct?

"Thinks that this will be too fast" makes me think this document
is telling me how to do something that has never been done before.

Question 2: Has this "beginners" experiment ever been done, successfully,
with these small DC motors by anyone?


4) Use 1st motor "as is", but 2nd motor needs to have the wires leading to
motor coils disconnected.

Question 3: on these tiny DC motors .. how does one get into the case?
Do I rip off the casing by any way possible? Are the cases designed to
be opened?

Try this with 24V input from primary, and 12V batteries getting charged as
first simple test.

Since I'm asking questions, I know not anything, thus the last question.
Question 4: looking at Radio Shack I find motors (pretty fast rpms) of 1.5 to
18 VDC .. Can I connect 24v to any of these motors, as the document
instructs, without a problem or will this burn the motor up?

Failures are to be expected, I just don't like
setting myself up for one if I can avoid it.:thinking:
Thanks,
Randy

ashtweth
10-12-2008, 12:20 AM
Hi Randy

The experiment you describe is a very neglected one and a great one for recovery Kone tells me. BEMF The Recoil Recovery is a separate technology from the RV :) now what i advise is taking your Q's to this group (cut and paste) and ask Kone he will answer right away and be over the moon that some one is finally gonna make this motor.

This is the group
EVGRAY : zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVGRAY/)

Vortex
10-14-2008, 05:04 AM
Hi Randy

The experiment you describe is a very neglected one and a great one for recovery Kone tells me. BEMF The Recoil Recovery is a separate technology from the RV :) now what i advise is taking your Q's to this group (cut and paste) and ask Kone he will answer right away and be over the moon that some one is finally gonna make this motor.

This is the group
EVGRAY : zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVGRAY/)
Thank you for direction.:thumbsup:
I will get over there soon and ask my questions there.

revizal
12-31-2008, 07:04 AM
Hi All,

I just completed a test on my 3 PH old water pump motor to run in RV modes. Here is my video link:

YouTube - RV water pump-1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3lfQSkaz4M)

Thanks,

Rev.

revizal
01-02-2009, 06:19 AM
Hi All,

I just completed a test on my 3 PH old water pump motor to run in RV modes. Here is my video link:

YouTube - RV water pump-1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3lfQSkaz4M)

Thanks,

Rev.

All,

One more. This below is my test on RV modes water pump. I got better result now (only 100 mA draw current).

YouTube - RV-Water Pump-2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E46HOfENYEA)

Rev.

ashtweth
01-02-2009, 07:03 AM
Bravo REV!!!!!! depending on your motor size i am guessing 5HP? you will have 1/4 of the available HP but at an up to 94% PF. Use a frequency drive and you will get more torque but preserve the RV efficiency! Thanks for doing this man, always a pleasure to watch your work.

Ash

ashtweth
01-02-2009, 01:01 PM
Rev, sorry forgot to ask is this a 3 phase motor? What are the specs of the motor?

revizal
01-02-2009, 01:34 PM
Rev, sorry forgot to ask is this a 3 phase motor? What are the specs of the motor?

Thanks Ash. I built it based on Roto Verter documentation at panacea bocaf site.:thumbsup:

Yes, it is a 3 PH motor. This motor actually used as water pump motor with only have 0.17 HP at 220 VAC, 1.2 A, 50 Hz, 2850 RPM (specs) with 8 uF 450 VAC start capacitor.

I hope later I will able to built a 4 or 5 HP motor which could runs a 1-2 HP dinamo or alternator. It will be very usefull for our energy saving and alternative.

Rev.

ashtweth
01-03-2009, 02:36 AM
Hi Rev, great work my friend:cool: , Rev, also if you want too you can reduce the idle consumption further by removing the external fan, the RV runs COLD as there is no heat losses so you don't need to worry about heat or need the fan;) .

Next step is to get you a frequency driven inverter for more HP.we are making one down here ill have some snaps of our water pump and it prob in 2 days. Keep going man!. You could also use such low power to create a solar water pump! Just need a 120watt solar panel and good deep cycle battery, this is what we are working on ATM.

Ash

revizal
01-03-2009, 11:11 AM
Hi Rev, great work my friend:cool: , Rev, also if you want too you can reduce the idle consumption further by removing the external fan, the RV runs COLD as there is no heat losses so you don't need to worry about heat or need the fan;) .

Next step is to get you a frequency driven inverter for more HP.we are making one down here ill have some snaps of our water pump and it prob in 2 days. Keep going man!. You could also use such low power to create a solar water pump! Just need a 120watt solar panel and good deep cycle battery, this is what we are working on ATM.

Ash

I've no idea how to change/adjust the frequency of an inverter.

Rev.

ashtweth
01-05-2009, 01:31 AM
Hi Rev, okay, there are a few ways to tweak them here is a file showing one way from this particular inverter. (Attached)

Now the guy who did that inverter hack conversion also looped the RV, except he encountered interference.
Energy Suppression (http://panacea-bocaf.org/rvtechnology.htm)

We just got a 1000USD donation in for him to help him, guys i suggest if you loop the RV RELEASE IT SIMULTANEOUSLY (2 reps) AND GO PUBLIC, don't try to make money.

Regards
Ash

revizal
01-05-2009, 02:47 AM
Hi Rev, great work my friend:cool: , Rev, also if you want too you can reduce the idle consumption further by removing the external fan, the RV runs COLD as there is no heat losses so you don't need to worry about heat or need the fan;) .

Next step is to get you a frequency driven inverter for more HP.we are making one down here ill have some snaps of our water pump and it prob in 2 days. Keep going man!. You could also use such low power to create a solar water pump! Just need a 120watt solar panel and good deep cycle battery, this is what we are working on ATM.

Ash

Thanks a lots Ash for the file and suggestion.

You absolutely right. I've tried in different frequency (50 and 60 Hz). What you're watching in my last video is running the water pump motor on 60 Hz (my home plug). When I try to run it on UPS (600 watt 50 Hz), the resonance changed. It need more caps to get resonance that mean I just could reduce to 400 mA current. Just what you say, we could get more HP with proper working frequency.

Rev.

ashtweth
01-05-2009, 03:03 AM
Hi Rev, when you adjust the frequency (higher), you need LESS RUN caps,. Peter will be able to explain why better then me, the higher the frequency (say 80Hertz etc) the less RUN cap you will need to reduce the draw.

Remember you are power factor correcting your load and it is determined by frequency applied as well as load/draw requirements. You are doing real well:thumbsup:

Joit
01-05-2009, 05:34 AM
" Chad reported the following to one of our helping engineers:


I have no resources and am in danger of losing everything. I believe that “they" got to my money people and I now need a job so I can eat. I don’t know exactly what happened but some rich people got their bank accounts fooled with so I'm S.O.L. they won't even return or answer my calls.-End "





"Above is a photo Brian’s RV looped set up. After reporting this on the internet, Brain was threatened. Both Chad and Brian remain bankrupt. The organization is now undergoing a replication attempt of their research locally. Upon completion Panacea WILL create security by a public disclosure/demonstration of this technology, and further help Chad and Brian. If you can help Chad/Brian in ANY way PLEASE consider a small donation"

Wow, how more bad can it be.
So far to Obamas Politic of Free Energy?

ashtweth
01-05-2009, 07:14 AM
Joit, its the method of DISCLOSURE that needs focus here, people must open source FREE ENERGY. We do not need politics, we need a change in perception of how the world is governed, we can stand on our own two feet free energy engineers need to rise above the conditioning and create public access to technology through open source disclosure,.

Every other way is the LONG way around. we are working on the replication of Chad's work, but will be PUBLICLY releasing it.

Ash

theremart
01-05-2009, 04:03 PM
Hi Rev, okay, there are a few ways to tweak them here is a file showing one way from this particular inverter. (Attached)

Now the guy who did that inverter hack conversion also looped the RV, except he encountered interference.
Energy Suppression (http://panacea-bocaf.org/rvtechnology.htm)

We just got a 1000USD donation in for him to help him, guys i suggest if you loop the RV RELEASE IT SIMULTANEOUSLY (2 reps) AND GO PUBLIC, don't try to make money.

Regards
Ash

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Yo Ash,

This mod looks very simple, is this the inverter ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Heavy-Duty-24-Hour-1000-Watt-DC-to-AC-Inverter-1000W_W0QQitemZ190275076445QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_C redit_Card_Terminals?hash=item190275076445&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A13 18|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

Has this been working well for Joe?

thanks

ashtweth
01-06-2009, 05:13 AM
Mart is back:D
Thats the one my brother

"WEGAN tech Peak Surge Power 2500 W continuous use 1000 watt. Input
12VDC Output 115V AC."

Ash

theremart
01-06-2009, 03:01 PM
Mart is back:D
Thats the one my brother

"WEGAN tech Peak Surge Power 2500 W continuous use 1000 watt. Input
12VDC Output 115V AC."

Ash

Kool,

Can Joe fill us in on what loads this setup can handle or how many hours he has been able to run using this setup? I may be enticed to do this as it is so simple, but since I already have a 2500 W inverter, I want to know what I would gain by doing this, and how stable this setup has been.

Thanks

ashtweth
01-07-2009, 12:00 AM
Hi Mart, if your referring to Joe low watt AKA "Chad"?
He looped his RV, so i say it can run for a bit of time :thumbsup: :D
We are still trying to get full details from him at this time.

Mart, the hacked inverter will be useful for both energy saving applications, and for the looped set up.
There is A LOT involved in the RV loop , so prob might be a bit much for you?

Ash

theremart
01-07-2009, 12:53 AM
Hi Mart, if your referring to Joe low watt AKA "Chad"?
He looped his RV, so i say it can run for a bit of time :thumbsup: :D
We are still trying to get full details from him at this time.

Mart, the hacked inverter will be useful for both energy saving applications, and for the looped set up.
There is A LOT involved in the RV loop , so prob might be a bit much for you?

Ash

I am not shooting for looped, I am asking about the inverter mod that should give more horsepower to the motor. The document you gave to hack the inverter was from Joe. I wanted to know how this modified inverter has performed for Joe or how many people have done this mod?

Thanks

ashtweth
01-07-2009, 01:22 AM
Mart thats Chad's inverter, he and others have done it and yes it will give you more shaft power. This is stated in the compilations.

Ash

revizal
01-07-2009, 08:20 AM
Ash,

I have a plan to build resonance motor (worked as an alternator) on RV mode, but in 1 phase AC motor. Do you think it will work ?
From the RV documentation, I saw (from panacea replication) the motor which worked as alternator wired in 1 phase setup. So, I thought if I have 2 (identical) motor, I will get the same way as if I work in 3 PH motor.

What do you think ?:)

Rev.

theremart
01-07-2009, 03:55 PM
Mart thats Chad's inverter, he and others have done it and yes it will give you more shaft power. This is stated in the compilations.

Ash


Ok, I have ordered the inverter, what is the wattage on the 100K pot needed?

Thanks

ashtweth
01-08-2009, 01:38 AM
Ash,

I have a plan to build resonance motor (worked as an alternator) on RV mode, but in 1 phase AC motor. Do you think it will work ?
From the RV documentation, I saw (from panacea replication) the motor which worked as alternator wired in 1 phase setup. So, I thought if I have 2 (identical) motor, I will get the same way as if I work in 3 PH motor.

What do you think ?:)

Rev.

Hi Rev, yes you can create resonance from the induction 1 PH motor it will not be as much VARS to convert into usable watts as the 3PH but it is still possible, also the 1PH does not have as much of an impedance so i imagine you will need bigger caps for it:thumbsup: .

revizal
01-08-2009, 01:39 PM
Hi All,

I try RV mode on a 2 HP 3 PH AC Induction Motor today. I got a good result (less than 100 mA drawing current) on idle. But (may be someone can explain/tell me) why there is a humming sound around the cap when the start cap + running caps being connected to motor lead ? And this sound gone since I disconnect/switch off the start cap without any change in RPM.

Here is my video link:

YouTube - RV-2 HP 3 PH AC induction Motor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_p3y1g83MI)

Rev.

ashtweth
01-09-2009, 03:22 AM
Hi Mart, Rev and all.

Great Vid Rev:D , imagine if your induction motor had a permanent magnet rotor... There would be no slip loss and it would probably be around 100% efficient.
They have made an induction motor here with a PM rotor
(YouTube - Ingersoll Rand Hybrid Permanent Motor (HPM) (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=YEvAOe2BBNQ&feature=related))

This was the RV concept years ago, but we never could get one machined plus you have to be careful of the magnetic DRAG if you make one (read compilations). With an AC motor control or hacked frequency driven inverter and a PM rotor, you would have a superior induction motor.

Now i think the noise is because of the resonance and the semi resonant state, you will notice this when you hook your alternator up if you do, that the "hum" is where it gets in/out of the resonance and sweet spot.

Don't forget you will probably only get 1/4 (as your driving it at one quarter of the voltage rating) at the shaft, with a 2HP that will not be much but still will have a power factor close to 1. (maybe up to 94% efficient).

With that at idle and a half a HP load you could run that from a solar panel:)
If you re grease your bearings with low friction lube it will be more efficient also don't forget to take off rear cooling fan if you have not already:) .

Wish there was easy inverter hacks to do, i woild love to see tha frquency driven,

@mart, i just need to check with Andrew (Panacea techie) what rating to get, sorry i missed your Q yesterday man.

Ash

ashtweth
01-09-2009, 03:31 AM
Hi Rev, i just found soe good advice on the EVGRAY yahoo group for first timers from Dan.

-------------------------

This is where I bought my caps. I had those shipped to Europe.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2009010712164650
<http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2009010712164650&catname=electric
&keyword=EMRC> &catname=electric&keyword=EMRC
I bought 3-4 each of the following values: 50, 30, 20, 10, 5, 2, 1, .5 µF.
You can build a simple cap-box with DPDT switches.
Make sure you add a 1M bleed resistor across each cap, so they discharge
automatically (**** happens if you would touch those... the big onces can be
lethal when charged - take care!!)

If you have only electrolytic caps, do not use those for an extended period,
but just for a small test (some minutes).
Microwave caps are good as well (leave the bleed resistor in place),
although the cap value is fairly low - you would need to many...

The motors you listed are 400 (delta) / 690 (wye) volt, 4 pole (1400rpm),
50Hz. Wire your first motor for 690V (so wye), and feed it with approx 1/4V
of that. For your first test, you can even hook it up directly to the grid
(230-240V). So grid to phase A & B, and run caps to phase B & C. You will
need more caps to get the thing starting (also across B & C). Once your
prime-mover is running, remove the 'start caps'.

As Kone said, you'll need about 100µF run caps. But I guess it will be less
as you run on higher voltages, so could be even only 30µF. This just need to
be tested on your particular motor. Add or remove caps until you get the
lowest draw (ideally less than 30W). Clean bearings and remove fan (fan
alone takes 25W).

Once you have your first motor running (as prime mover) in RV mode, start
putting your 2nd motor (called Alt or alternator). Connect the shafts
face-to-face. Wire that motor for 400V, so in delta (reason is no to
generate too high voltages - stay safe). Gradually add run caps on the Alt
across 2 of the 3 phases, until it starts to 'generate'. You will notice
that - different sound - current flowing (put amp or clamp meter & measure
voltage). Add caps until you get high circulating current running. Whilst
you do that you will need to adjust the run caps on the primary mover. Do
this carefully and slowly. Learn as you go and understand the thing - don't
go too fast as these are dangerous toys. (Hector would say : zziippppp
ripppppp);

Once you master this, go to the next level and tune further the Alt, try
extracting power - read the compilations for this. Its all in there.

PS: I did once a test with a 2800rpm prime-mover, connected to a 1400rpm Alt 230V delta. This means that the Alt was effectively running at 2800rpm, so I got double frequency (close to 100Hz), but also double voltage. So I got
close to 470V. At the diode plug I got 1320 VDC !!

-Dan

revizal
01-09-2009, 04:52 AM
Thank you very much Ash. It was a great info for my project.:thumbsup: :notworthy:

Rev.

revizal
01-10-2009, 07:22 AM
Hi Rev, i just found soe good advice on the EVGRAY yahoo group for first timers from Dan.

-------------------------


Once you have your first motor running (as prime mover) in RV mode, start
putting your 2nd motor (called Alt or alternator). Connect the shafts
face-to-face. Wire that motor for 400V, so in delta (reason is no to
generate too high voltages - stay safe). Gradually add run caps on the Alt
across 2 of the 3 phases, until it starts to 'generate'. You will notice
that - different sound - current flowing (put amp or clamp meter & measure
voltage). Add caps until you get high circulating current running. Whilst
you do that you will need to adjust the run caps on the primary mover. Do
this carefully and slowly. Learn as you go and understand the thing - don't
go too fast as these are dangerous toys. (Hector would say : zziippppp
ripppppp);


-Dan


Hi Ash,

I almost complete my project on RV motor. Just ordered a motors mounting which could able to adjust 2nd motor position on it. I've tried adapt to run the other motor (my last small water pump motor) with a belt. It seems enough to hold 2 motors.

How about if I connect next motor with a belting. Could I still get a resonant alternator on it ?
Or it must run face-to-face setup only ?

Rev.

ashtweth
01-13-2009, 06:57 AM
Hi Rev, sorry guys just got in. Mart i have the value of the Pot for you, here will post tonight.

Rev, yes you can add a belt, it will have a slight LOSS as friction etc, but some already coupled an RV with a belt, you can even step it up (gear pulley etc) and get it to go faster, dont forget to TUNE Run cap in prime mover. :thumbsup:

Ash

revizal
01-13-2009, 08:24 AM
Hi Rev, sorry guys just got in. Mart i have the value of the Pot for you, here will post tonight.

Rev, yes you can add a belt, it will have a slight LOSS as friction etc, but some already coupled an RV with a belt, you can even step it up (gear pulley etc) and get it to go faster, dont forget to TUNE Run cap in prime mover. :thumbsup:

Ash


OK Ash. I will use a belt to drive my alternator first. And will go next with head to head coupling to see different effect of setup. I'm waiting for a 3 HP 3 PH 2850 RPM motor to set as the motor on this experiment. My last motor 2 HP 3 PH (lower RPM) will choose as the alternator. May be tomorrow will be come to me.

Thank you for your very usefull information here.:thumbsup:

Rev.

ashtweth
01-13-2009, 08:36 AM
For Mart.

24mm size pot as its for the signal, this should be fine

theremart
01-13-2009, 04:54 PM
For Mart.

24mm size pot as its for the signal, this should be fine


Ok, but I need the wattage of the pot, ohms are given.

Also can I move the pot while the motor is running? Do I use a scope to tune it ?

Thanks!

ashtweth
01-14-2009, 06:53 AM
Mart the pot is specified for 100K in the document, try a half a watt one.
As for tuning, you can tune the frequency up SLOWLY, and let the motor catch up to speed, do not turn it down when its operating, be careful switching in caps, you could blow the inverter from BEMF.

You tune it by the following procedure specified, in the compilations.
The higher the frequency the lower the capacitance needed (RUN CAP).

Ash

theremart
01-15-2009, 01:41 PM
Mart the pot is specified for 100K in the document, try a half a watt one.
As for tuning, you can tune the frequency up SLOWLY, and let the motor catch up to speed, do not turn it down when its operating, be careful switching in caps, you could blow the inverter from BEMF.

You tune it by the following procedure specified, in the compilations.
The higher the frequency the lower the capacitance needed (RUN CAP).

Ash

Ash,

Ok, I have installed the 100K pot, I have hooked up the killo watt meter to this and sometimes it comes on other times it does not, when it does come on and the killo watt metter is working, i can see the frequency move around.

I have plugged in a light, and the inverter power it just fine...

Any suggestions for my first power up of the inverter? My plan is put the run cap on, get the motor up to speed then turn the run cap off then note the power of the motor after that.

Thanks for your help.

Mart

theremart
01-17-2009, 08:24 PM
I played around with the pot on the hacked inverter, I found it draws from 2.3 amps at 12.3V on my battery up to about 11 Amps.

As I increased the amps from 2.3amps to 11 amps the motor spun at faster revs. So, I could tune this per a set load which is kinda nice.

This is progress so far. I have had many headaces to get so far as I had to fix things that I missed on the inverter, and I also took apart the motor again and removed the seals on the bearing. I have cleaned them far better than ever before with the carb cleaner and put the duralube inside.

On a side note, my killa watt meter stopped working after I was testing the output of the inverter... hope I just blew a fuse.

revizal
01-20-2009, 08:28 AM
Hi Ash and All,

After a couple of days to do some business I made a test on RV mode to have resonance effect on 2nd motor as alternator. I have 3 PH 3 HP motor that I used as a prime mover driving the 2 HP 3 PH motor (act as alternator) via a belt.

I found the main thing on the system is speed/RPM. If I could get speed with lowest power input, I will get higher voltage on the alternator. And I'm sure we could control the output frequency thru this speed too. We tune the capacitor to have lowest power input on PM with the fastest we can get to get power output.

Yes Ash, I got it. My first target is to sure the resonance work on the alternator and I got that. Next target is to tune the system with my capacitor available. We'll se..

Here is the video link:

YouTube - RV-Coupled 3 PH Motor as Alternator (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZacyuiwekI)

Thank you very much for your previously info on RV setup.:notworthy:

Rev.

ashtweth
01-22-2009, 01:13 AM
Hi Rev, keep going its easy after this first stage and you automatically get an intuitive sense on tuning. The extraction circuits are well advanced and takes a lot of patience, this is see you have :thumbsup:
Please post your progress ALSO over here too Bro
(all the RV engineers strangely only converse at this group)
EVGRAY : zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVGRAY/)

revizal
01-24-2009, 03:47 AM
Hi All,

I bought a new 2HP 3 PH 2840 RPM motor to work in my RV Project. This motor drive my last 2HP 3PH 1400 RPM motor which will act as a generator. I coupled it by belt to get higher power output result. I got virtual circulating power output 2440 watt from 1300 watt input. May be it will give better result if I could tune the cap on the fly.

Here is the vid:

YouTube - RV-3 PH motor as Generator (Better Result) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOJcZSnS74o)

Rev.

ashtweth
01-27-2009, 02:44 AM
Thanks Rev, you are getting there!

What you will have there ATM is VARS (voltage amps reactive) or circulating current, what we need to do is transform it into usable WATTS. ATM it is not watts but reactive power, so cannot be series loaded.

The RV way to extract this into usable watts is profiled on the RV document on the panacea university site:) . Don't forget to come to EVGRAY yahoo energy group and post there as well as here. Will have a new extraction Schematic done to try soon from Chad hopefully. Thanks for video Rev.

Ash

lookingin
01-27-2009, 02:55 PM
@All,
First post, and have been a student in green machines for a long time. The Roto Verter will fit in my plans. I didn't want to start another thread.. But if you feel it should be Please move it. Here's what I have STERLING SIHI GMBH 3 PHASE electric motor and fluid pump. (New) 3 Phase 2.95 hp 3460 rpm 346/480 4.5 4.9 amps 200/280 8.5/8.0. I will post pictures very soon. I can't fine much information in the pump. It was made in Germany. It's has six wires and two very small wires. The two very small wires has a warning of over protection 2.5V. I have studied ash's PDF and will make a capacitor box very soon. It seems very close to 50hz motor.

ashtweth
01-28-2009, 04:14 AM
Hi lookingin welcome to the forum Brother:hug:
Its not my PDF, it belongs to the open source community :), that's what panacea is, inspired b y and here to support YOU guys.

okay, this sounds like a perfect project, i really want people to start with the energy savings like Rev did,. its practical and can lead to a higher understanding of tuning and advanced configurations.

Dont forget like Rev, you will need a FREQUENCY DRIVE to get more HP out of your pump, usually you get 1/3 of the rated shaft power as we are feeding it with 1/3 of tHe voltage, BUT, this has a higher and more efficient power factor, in theory you should be able to create an AC motor controller and tune the caps and still run in Rv mode with the higher and more efficient shaft power!

looking forward to the snaps and videos

Ash

revizal
01-29-2009, 11:23 AM
Hi Ash,

Based on your previous suggestion due to friction and slip at rubber belting, I made a setup like original RV documentation. Last 2HP 3PH motor drive on PM saft directly and I got more power on saft. Thanks for your helping me.
Here is the vid link:

YouTube - RV-Coupling on Saft 2HP 3PH motor head to head (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeSOzsUDk3g)

Rev.

ashtweth
01-29-2009, 11:37 PM
WEll done Rev!!! :notworthy: This is a good start, there is some good VARS there to extract, Kone gave some great advice there on you tube about a solution to output the load from the alternator ONLY at the AC sinewave PEAKS FEEDING the motor.

The best START to understand this and master it (then to move on to
higher power extraction) is in the deliverance circuit in EVGRAY in
files with light-trigger or similar with trigger-trafo off run cap
phase sensing sine wave peaks. Its also backed up in the RV
compilations. REV let me know if you cannot find it ill show you.

With your RV water pump, you can also run it in "DC humping AC" mode
which is included in the uni RV course document. This can give you
more torque till you get a frequency drive there, or hack an inverter.

Hector prefers the 7.5 60 hertz baldors, but you can still get some good virtual to extract with those motors. Rev very impressive man.:cheers:

cody
01-30-2009, 02:01 AM
I apologize if these have already come up, i havnt been following this thread. Here are two great videos from konehead on the basic conversion of a rotoverter. I would say its worth a watch if you are thinking about making one.
YouTube - Rotoverter Conversion Demonstration Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzO_lzgfoKM)
YouTube - Rotoverter Conversion Demonstration Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGGL7Hs0p5Y)

esaruoho
02-02-2009, 02:18 AM
Adee's Rotoverter page (http://sites.google.com/site/newinthepast/rotoverter-newinthepast)
Adee's Rotoverter report (http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgwjfdv6_6d2qs45ft)

theremart
02-04-2009, 12:16 PM
YouTube - Video 60 Rotoverter with Wagar inverter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4tMEurNYxk)

Completed hack on wagar inverter. I have noticed that not only frequency changes with this hack but so does voltage.

esaruoho
02-04-2009, 03:00 PM
(trying to get stuff right in my head, reply if it goes wrong and point me right)
Virtual current / VAR circulating in the circuit can be extracted with a sinewave peak extraction circuit. This circuit has to date not been built by any of the replicators that have posted their VAR results, or so it would appear. Austin Adee got to VAR, Samul Penttilä got to VAR, and various others, some on Overunity etc have got to VAR and then either explained it away as a measurement error (Samuli Penttilä, on this page (http://www.saunalahti.fi/lvihalli/muut%20sivut/rotoverter) ), or as something that should be built a circuit to extract (Austin Adee, on this site (http://sites.google.com/site/newinthepast/rotoverter-newinthepast) ("Problems: I cant 'extract' or 'use' this power yet, but i haven't gotten a resistive load equal to the resonance of the alternator. I can, however turn the lights on for a brief moment (80 watts)")))) .. So Samuli found with his oscilloscope shots that the virtual circulating current or VAR is out of phase by .. 90 degrees? .. he wrote "Sitten kun joku keksii laitteen, jolla saadaan generaattorin ulostulon jännite ja virta samanvaiheiseksi itse generaattorin siitä häiriintymättä, ollaan jäljillä." - "When someone figures out how the generator's outside voltage and current can be made into the same phase, without the generator getting harassed by it, then we are in the path of progress"). anyway, i've been sending samuli the circuits imagery this way and that way but for some reason they haven't gotten built.

so now its up to anyone basically to go and find the required information to be able to create a peak-extraction circuit that takes the exact peaks of the power and gets the out-of-phaseness out of it by phasecorrection. i see Konehead has always suggested a Full Wave Bridge Rectifier to be used in the various extraction circuits.
http://www.saunalahti.fi/lvihalli/muut%20sivut/rotovert_tiedostot/PICT3313.JPG this is where the finn got, and then gave up. i dont know why this happens. how many sinewave peak extraction circuits are there, and should there perhaps be a person who builds them and sends them out to these who have verified virtual current but haven't then done anything about it further.
Doug Konzen said, in addition to this diagram picture:
http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/3sinewavepeakRV.JPG
"Here is a way to charge battery from a rotovertor AC motor, and the pulsing to the charge battery only occurs at the peaks of the sinewave feeding the AC motor, which makes it "non-reflective" to the amperage draw of the motor while charging the charge battery."

-- from what ive been reading on evgray it seems that some circuits there has to be two of, in order to be non-reflective back to the motor/alternator rotoverter setup. so theres something that the running device does, that you want to extract, and immediately say "GOTCHA! not letting you back into the circuit, you go HERE now!". and this timing so that the current that is extracted is not reflected/returned back into the motor/alternator RV setup and the capacitors and the lot, is required to be made sure that there are no .. losses in the rotoverter itself and it doesnt hiccup?

the Deliverance circuit in the EVGRAY yahoogroup (http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/EVGray) in the files, a "light-trigger or a similar with a trigger-trafo off run-capacitor, which is phase sensing sine-wave-peaks.." a-ha. well, there's info in the RV compilations, which are here (http://panaceauniversity.org/RV.pdf). Ok, Deliverance Circuit, in that RV pdf, and also in the files of EVGray yahoogroups.

Konehead posted in august 2008 this:
"RV sinewave peak trigger" - This is simple circuit that triggers a mosfet charging battery only at sinewave peaks of AC signal feeding AC motor for "non-reflective" power output. and a further description is "Bug-zapper transformer across run cap phase senses sinewave peaks" - and that seems to be this: picture (http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/3sinewavepeakRV.JPG). so, back to the desc: "Here is a way to charge battery from a rotovertor AC motor, and the pulsing to the charge battery only occurs at the peaks of the sinewave feeding the AC motor, which makes it "non-reflective" to the amperage draw of the motor while charging the charge battery."


well, maybe the circuit will be built! maybe the other peak-extraction circuits will also be built.

esaruoho
02-04-2009, 03:07 PM
circuit | MERLib.org (http://merlib.org/tag/circuit)

ashtweth
02-05-2009, 02:55 AM
Thx, for those links guys, Great Vid Mart very professionally done, i am glad you didnt give up on this right away, we are working towards getting the extraction circuits tested this year, so its nice to know your rig will be there waiting when we crack it.

Now you should be able to get that free wheeling draw down, try tuning the run cap a bit, don't forget when you increase the frequency the capacitance that's needed will be LOWER.

Ash

revizal
02-05-2009, 05:12 AM
Hi All,

Here is the test load of my last RV-Setup.

YouTube - RV 2HP 3 PH Motor-Test Load (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHmhBKPkgRM)

Rev.

sciencisto
05-30-2009, 07:49 AM
You can call this „saving energy” when running a motor idle in rotoverter configuration.
A 5.5 kW motor at 50 Hz or 6.6 kW at 60 Hz (8.8 hp) runs on less than 4 W real power on one phase, so theoretically it can be run from a 1.5 V battery.

To achieve such result the motor bearings have to be well cleaned and slightly lubricated, the fan and the gaskets have to be removed. This motor shaft stops turning ~ 2.5 minutes after the power is switched off.

This film shows the data: ~3 W on the watt meter (the active range is 100 W), when drawing 0,21A on the amp meter (left) and 20.14 V on the volt meter):
http://filmoj.info/laboratorio/esploroj/rv/RV_04/P1040484.MOV
more pictures in:
Index of /laboratorio/esploroj/rv/RV_04 (http://filmoj.info/laboratorio/esploroj/rv/RV_04/)

Tecstatic
05-30-2009, 09:56 PM
Hi,

I have toyed a bit with the rotoverter myself, And I'm impressed you have results like Hector says is possible.:thumbsup:

Although you have made the video and the pictures, I'm not sure what your circuit is.

Does the black box hold a frequency drive and caps, and have you played with voltage, frequency and pulse duration to get this impressive result, or is it a plain rotoverter ?

Are you willing to share your diagram ?

Eric

sciencisto
05-31-2009, 07:47 AM
I didn't give any diagram because it is the standard rotoverter configuration by Hector, powered from the grid (230V 50 Hz) through a variac (regulated transformer from 0 to 285V), noting else. One phase to A terminal of the motor, C terminal to the ground and a capacitor from A to B terminal. Star configuration of the windings.

The black box is the capacitor box (from 0.15 do 160 microF). The round thing on the left of this box is the variac, it was used to regulate the voltage going to the motor. No PWM or frequency regulation. Only the voltage and the capacitance. So, typical, normal, simple rotoverter.

After doing thousands of experiments with rotoverter like configurations ( rotoverter on 4 W (http://showing.com/video/21758/3-phase-50-Hz-5-5-kW-motor-running-on-4-W/) ) I have come to conclusion that the construction and material used of the motor is a very important factor. This is the fist motor that I could go so low with the power consumption. With other motors the lowest I could go was 14 W.

Tecstatic
05-31-2009, 07:30 PM
I didn't give any diagram because it is the standard rotoverter configuration by Hector, powered from the grid (230V 50 Hz) through a variac (regulated transformer from 0 to 285V), noting else. One phase to A terminal of the motor, C terminal to the ground and a capacitor from A to B terminal. Star configuration of the windings.

The black box is the capacitor box (from 0.15 do 160 microF). The round thing on the left of this box is the variac, it was used to regulate the voltage going to the motor. No PWM or frequency regulation. Only the voltage and the capacitance. So, typical, normal, simple rotoverter.

After doing thousands of experiments with rotoverter like configurations ( Index of /laboratorio/esploroj/rv (http://filmoj.info/laboratorio/esploroj/rv/) ) I have come to conclusion that the construction and material used of the motor is a very important factor. This is the fist motor that I could go so low with the power consumption. With other motors the lowest I could go was 14 W.

Please try taking a look on my posts and see if it makes sense to you regarding your tests of different motors.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3934-high-voltage-thin-air-21.html#post55636

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3934-high-voltage-thin-air-21.html#post55754

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3934-high-voltage-thin-air-22.html#post55865

Maybe it can help understanding why your motors does not perform the same...
To my understanding the coil wire represents 1/4 wave length and harmonics thereof, thus defining the "reception frequencies", but if no external energy is present at those frequencies, you gain nothing. Luckily there always seems to be some gain, but not all frequencies are equally good, as seen by DrStiffler in his SEC experiments.

Eric

Tecstatic
05-31-2009, 10:49 PM
@adee

Keep on the good work :thumbsup:

Try this.
Referring to your homepage:
RV - NewInThePast ‎(New In The Past)‎ (http://sites.google.com/site/newinthepast/rotoverter-newinthepast)

First remove all external wires on your alternator.

The WYE connection of the motor coils are correct.

Connect a bulb between point 4 and 12.

Start, if the voltage across the bulb is zero, then your coils matches well, and without hurting yourself try try shorting 4 to 12, if the RPM does not reduce, make the short 4 to 12 permanent.

If the coils don't match, break connections 1 to 7, 2 to 8 and 3 to 9, and 4 to 12.

Remove the bulb between 4 and 12.

Connect your variable capacitor bank to points 3 and 6.

Start and tune to resonance.

Stop and put capacitors the found value, one cap to 2 and 5, and one cap to 1 and 4,

Start again, and re tune the variable bank, if it is still the same you are done with tuning, else replace the two other caps to the same value.

Now you have it tuned,

Stop.

Remove the cap wire from point 3 and series insert your bulb socket without a bulb. Now the bulb socket connects the cap to point 3. Add a contact parallel to the bulb. Turn on the contact.

Start and measure the current through the contact with a clamp meter.

Just as an example say you measure 10 Amps.

If you use a 110V bulb it must then be 10Amps * 110Volts = 1100W

If you don't have a bulb matching your actual calculation add more bulb sockets parallel to the first one, Put in bulbs so the sum of their nominal amps match your calculation.

Start and then switch off your contact, the bulb(s) should now light full intensity, adding the bulb may detune slightly, re tune if necessary.

stop

Add contacts and bulbs the same for the remaining 2 phases, one at a time. if it detunes do some iterations by replacing with fixed capacitors and move the capacitor box to another coil to test tuning.

Good luck !

Eric

nilrehob
11-22-2009, 07:05 PM
I just wanted bump this thread up
since I started my RV-project some time ago:
YouTube - RV part 1, introduction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWd3ElA-Phw)
The progress is slow but there are 5 videos so far.

/Hob

nilrehob
11-23-2009, 08:14 AM
I got it idling at 20V and 2.6W today.
YouTube - RV part 6, 20V 2.6W (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM4zlLS_94A)

:cheers:

/Hob

Altair
11-23-2009, 08:01 PM
Hi, at the end of part 6, you say the Amps reading is .13 A, but the meter shows .013...
Just wanted to let you know.

nilrehob
11-23-2009, 08:35 PM
Hi, at the end of part 6, you say the Amps reading is .13 A, but the meter shows .013...
Just wanted to let you know.

Yes, thats right. The meter was actually reading 0.013 V over 0.1 Ohm which equals 0.13 A. Thanks anyway!

/Hob

uusedman
11-24-2009, 10:53 AM
Yes, thats right. The meter was actually reading 0.013 V over 0.1 Ohm which equals 0.13 A. Thanks anyway!

/Hob

Your videos are great. Please keep testing and posting.

thanks

nilrehob
11-24-2009, 05:34 PM
Your videos are great. Please keep testing and posting.

thanks

Positive feedback are always welcome :grindaisy:

/Hob

sebosfato
11-24-2009, 06:54 PM
Nice work my friend
if you know about the meyers work i would like to tell you to try this

why don't you try using this motor to drive a high amperage alternator connected in a fashion like this.

try using one of the alternator secondary connected to a capacitor and find the right speed to create resonance. Once you got that connect the other two secondaries of the alternator connected thru 2 high amperage diodes one for each end but with reverse polarity and than connected to two three plates inside water one that is the earth in the middle of the two obviously isolated from each other. you can check a good schematic for the use of the resonant energy in my thread. I arrived there from transverter documents and is great.