PDA

View Full Version : My experiments are not consistent with Bedini school girl motor from 12 years ago


harctan
07-15-2012, 10:54 AM
Hello all. I 've posted this on other related threads but could not get any straight answers so far. I've build a little monopole energizer using a skateboard wheel with 4 ceramic magnets. I run it from a rechargable 9v 200mAh battery and charging an identical one. I haven't manage to run it for more than 30 minutes before the drive battery drains, during which time the charge battery would have charged at 30% in the best case scenario. I know that John Bedini insists on replicating his designs exactly at first before making any changes, which I find reasonable. Since my energizer is different from the original design and I also didn't manage to find the sweet spot yet I'll reserve my jugdement on this one. But then I decided to replicate the school girl science fair motor which is quite close to my specifications. I wanted to test the claim that it can run for 5 days on a 9v battery. Also in the energizer we have the neon bulb so the transistor doesn't blow up from the flyback voltage spikes in case the charge battery wasn't connected. I was curious to see if it would be somehow protected in this design. I got my info from this page: Bedini Motor test (http://www.keelynet.com/bedmot/bedmot.htm). I used a bifilar coil with welding rods core and 0.45mm and 0.63mm wires at about 600 turns. The transistor was a 2n3055, the diode a 1n4148 and I used a 1k potensiometer set somewhere between 650-700 Ohms. I run my setup from a brand new 9v 200mAh battery. In about 5 minutes the transistor blew up. I managed to take current measurement before that. I measured 210mA free running and it droped to 150mA when loaded (approached another coil) .When I tried a 10 Ohm resistor at first the current was off the roof. This was nowhere near the 22mA claimed. I tried the same experiment but now I attached a second pickup coil as a load although I couldn't get it to light a 2V LED. This time the transistor was fine but I had some trouble with the 1K pot when trying to adjust it. I think there was some sparking and smelled like burning. I tried another one and the same happened. I never had this problem with the energizer setup (with neon and charging battery). I removed the pot and tried the following resistances 10, 110, 210 and 310 Ohms. The wheel would spin faster at 110 Ohms. Anyway I left it running at 310 Ohms and the battery gave up at 20 minutes. Then I connected another identical half charged battery in series at 110 Ohms and managed to get another 15 minutes. After that I noticed that the transistor was cool but the batteries were hot, something that never happened in the energizer setup. I couldn't get any Amp draw readings this time because I blew a fuse on my analog multimeter yesterday. As you can see my results are nowhere near the 5 days of continuous operation as claimed and so far I haven't found anyone that has replicated this and published his results with clarity. So after 12 years has noone replicated this? I would love to have a little motor that could run for a couple of days instead of a couple of hours. If it is that simple and it actually works as claimed it would a great proof of principle little gadget. Also if someone has built a small energizer like mine running from a 9v battery and had better results do share. People usually say they use it to charge batteries but do not mention the rate of charging of the secondary battery in relation to the discharge of the primary. For example if the secondary charges as fast as the primary drains (or faster) while doing all the mechanical work that would be spectacular. I believe my questions are reasonable and basic and any relevant input would be highly appreciated.

mbrownn
07-15-2012, 03:01 PM
Your problem is tuning, Pushing too much current will lead to inefficient charging and burning out of the pot and transistor. If the bearings are free on the roller skate and the distance from your magnets to the coil is about 1/4 of an inch or more you should be able to adjust it to consume very small amounts of power. Don't tune it for speed, tune it for a high charging voltage. It is possible that you will blow your neon bulb so don't run it without a charging battery connected

I have built many computer fans to run on this circuit and achieved excellent results but as I increase the system power so I can work with lead acid batteries I burn out the pots.

On this thread the same circuit is used with a computer fan and it is not too difficult to achieve what you are looking for. http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2003-free-energy-last-step-step-must-see.html

This also has the advantage that you can hear the sweet spot.

It is unlikely that you will charge faster than you drain the battery, I never have with this circuit, but you can get 95+% charging and 20% motor efficiency, That should be enough to get most people convinced or in denial :rofl: 115% efficiency.

harctan
07-15-2012, 04:30 PM
Hello mbrownn. The problem that I had with the transistor and the pot was NOT with the energizer setup (neon and charging battery) but with the school girl science fair setup (http://www.keelynet.com/bedmot/bedmot.htm). The bearings are in average shape and my coil-magnet gap is about 0.5cm (0.2inch). Are you suggesting that I would get better results if I increased the gap? I tried many different resistance values at my pot but couldn't get much better results that what I've stated in my first post in the energizer setup. As for the current draw the lowest I managed to go was a little less than 150mA. If I turned the pot higher it would stop turning. I am aware of the computer fan modification project. In fact I tried to do that one first but didn't manage to get the stator out without damaging both the casing and the stator. That thing was glued in there very thightly. Perhaps I'll give it one more try. In this thread I'm also seeking answers about the school girl motor that supposedly run for 5 days. It looks strange to me that after 12 years I haven't found any replications to this simple project.

mbrownn
07-16-2012, 12:19 PM
The device you linked to, the simplified school girl motor and the bedini fan are all variations of the same device.

It could be that your magnets could be the problem or just more tweeking needed. the magnets do not have to be very strong like neo magnets, ceramic ones work best because the field is bigger. Neo magnets have a small field but it is very strong and you have to take time to get the gap right. ceramic magnets work with a wide variation of gap.

realmikel
07-17-2012, 05:58 AM
In this thread I'm also seeking answers about the school girl motor that supposedly run for 5 days. It looks strange to me that after 12 years I haven't found any replications to this simple project.

The gentleman that came up with the design you have attempted to build occasionally shows up on this forum. Your statement about replications and your inability to follow the instructions to obtain the desired results has been replicated for many years by many experimenters and this has caused him to stop being as open as he once was. May I suggest that your attitude undergo an adjustment if your looking for assistance. Ten coiler, three coiler, and even the fan circuit are all examples of replication. The school girl version your attempting was published in an effort to "simplify" the ideas so that even a nine your old could make the circuit work. If your unable to duplicate what a nine year old could do then the solution is not to express doubts about the veracity of the author. The solution is more along the idea of you understanding that the joule thief and Ainsley's circuit are the same basic principal and until you grasp that basic idea then you will be so challenged to understand the school girl circuit you will continue to make the same mistakes that prevent you from replicating the authors work.
May I suggest diagrams of what you have actually built be posted instead of your doubts or the instructions you were supposed to follow. Actual pictures of the circuit layed out and labeled so that members can see any errors in your work and suggest corrections is going to get you a whole lot farther in this arena.

harctan
07-17-2012, 10:04 AM
Hello realmikel. I started learning about these things recently so obviously my skillset is still rather limited. My first attempt at this was the little monopole energizer to charge batteries that I already mentioned. I know that I didn't built it to the specifications recommended and I shouldn't expect the same results. If it was easy for me I would have. But for the energizer there are numerous replications available for me to watch and learn. Now the school girl motor is simpler to make to specifications, smaller, cheaper and easier to test it's efficiency, making it a very attractive project for a novice like me. I have already described the specifics of my design previously and the schematic is the one from the paged I linked before, which doesn't seem to work now. I have it as an attachment. For now I dismantled my setup so I can make some adjustments (replace bearings, try various gap distances etc) so I can't send a photo for now, but I will as soon as I have it assembled again. Perhaps you can get a general idea from my first attempt here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11457-need-help-my-bedini-replication.html#post193880. My confusion with this is that although for the energizer there are a lot of replications available and detailed information to go through, for the simpler school girl motor there doesn't seem to be much except the original article. If I have just missed it please give me the relevant links. I know my own replication is far from perfect (that's why I'm trying to improve it) but still the difference from 30 minutes of run time to 5 days seems excessive to me. If you find some flaw in my reasoning please describe it to me and I will consider it. Thank you for your input.

mbrownn
07-17-2012, 10:39 AM
As I said, I would recommend the fan for beginners because all you have to do is solder, No winding coils, no setting gaps etc. It also works very well. To get the circuit to run for 5 days on a 9v battery requires a precise build even if it is possible, personally I doubt it can be done with standard bearings as the friction would take more power to overcome than the power available in a small 9v battery for that length of time, unless many battery swaps are done.

Using two 12v 9Ah lead acid batteries and rotating the batteries you could run a month or so with a fan before both batteries are depleted but doing this isn't good for the batteries as the sulphate will build up on the plates in lamination's in the process.

A typical fan consumes about 60 to 80mA so divide the amp-hour rating by the consumption to get the time of each run in the cycle.

The fan is also good to learn about the coil polarity because it will only run when wired correctly and in the other possible combinations you notice the fan magnetically lock up or just freewheel. This is not so obvious with a home made rotor.

The other obvious thing you get is a chirping sound from the coils when the fan is running which is louder at the sweet spot

realmikel
07-17-2012, 12:07 PM
I have already described the specifics of my design previously and the schematic is the one from the paged I linked before, which doesn't seem to work now.

still the difference from 30 minutes of run time to 5 days seems excessive to me. If you find some flaw in my reasoning please describe it to me and I will consider it. Thank you for your input.

1st- suggestion in my first post is follow the instructions as closely as possible. It seems to me that someone was telling you that "if you are getting pulses of light from the neon bulb then your getting there". Please notice the diagram you posted here and show me the neon bulb in the circuit. oh imagine that there isn't one.

2nd- I suggested you understand what the circuit is doing. If your attempting to get back the original electrical pulse from the battery by capturing the collapse of the magnetic field to charge a battery you probably should look again at the design you attached and show me that part of the circuit. Now lets see if you can understand the waste you built into the circuit with one item, the neon tube. It is usually installed to prevent the destruction of the transistor " but not on your diagram". It uses roughly 100 volts at 10 ma which may be as much as .1 watt lost. To produce that power you have to use 9 volts at roughly .01 amps each time the lamp fires. How quickly does that run down the battery when it should be used to charge the battery?

3rd No matter how much I guess, I do not know what your doing till you show me a picture of exactly what you have built with labels. If you want to build something I suggest you build it and post pictures so the the people here much smarter than me can actually help you instead of frustrating you with guesses at what you have done wrong. If it does not seem worth the trouble for you then understand your lack of commitment.

harctan
07-18-2012, 08:06 AM
I reassembled my setup and attach a picture as promised. Here I have it with just a 10 Ohm resistor and the coil isn't attached firmly in place because I want to try different gap distances. Also in case this isn't clear by now let me clarify that I have been talking about two different setups. First one is the energizer setup which has the neon bulb (for transistor protection not to have it running all the time) and a charging battery, and it's purpose is to charge batteries. The second setup, and the one that I'm referring mostly on this thread, is the simpler school girl that doesn't have the neon and the second battery, and it's purpose is to have it run the rotor as long as possible. That's the reason that there isn't a neon and a second battery on the schematic above, on the attached picture or on this related thread: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/365-bedini-schoolgirl.html#post1537. There just aren't supposed to be used in this setup.

realmikel
07-18-2012, 04:32 PM
two items I would like to bring to your attention. Choice of materials can be very important. Notice the ssg with no charger has little to no resistors , in particular variable ones to adjust for a sweet spot. This means the items chosen were picked to fulfil some very exact parameters. Your choice of diode is described in terms of roughly 5 ma and the one in the diagram calls for one that is described around 5 ua which means it passes much less battery power into the circuit. Your choice in diodes alone could cause the high usage of battery power. Please note that there is a specific size for the wire in the coils. Not only does this effect resistance in a static situation it affects due to parallel resonance the draw on the battery. High q parallel circuits are refered to as current generators. This is some of the theory that you may want to learn about before you make any changes in a circuit. Your circuit may not be near resonance frequency which allows the circuit to resist the use of battery power to enter the circuit. No resonance no 5 days of running on a battery. If this makes sense let me know. If not are you willing to study theory to get the idea?

John_K
07-18-2012, 09:34 PM
I reassembled my setup and attach a picture as promised. Here I have it with just a 10 Ohm resistor and the coil isn't attached firmly in place because I want to try different gap distances. Also in case this isn't clear by now let me clarify that I have been talking about two different setups. First one is the energizer setup which has the neon bulb (for transistor protection not to have it running all the time) and a charging battery, and it's purpose is to charge batteries. The second setup, and the one that I'm referring mostly on this thread, is the simpler school girl that doesn't have the neon and the second battery, and it's purpose is to have it run the rotor as long as possible. That's the reason that there isn't a neon and a second battery on the schematic above, on the attached picture or on this related thread: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/365-bedini-schoolgirl.html#post1537. There just aren't supposed to be used in this setup.

Harctan, the first thing you want to do is solder all the components together, get rid of the clip leads.
Next, what type of magnets are you using? They should be ceramic #8, don't use neo magnets!
Next is the core material, the best is Lincoln R60 copper coated welding rods 1.6mm thick.
The rotor should be mounted vertically with the coil underneath it like in the diagram, the gap between the coil and the rotor magnets about 6mm will get you in the ball park and then adjust up or down to get faster speed.
Most importantly is the tuning. You need to get an analog amp meter and a 1k variable resistor. Adjust the variable resistor until you get the fastest RPM for the lowest current draw. Once you have it tuned, replace the variable resistor with a fixed resistor.

:cheers:
John K.

harctan
07-22-2012, 05:14 PM
Hello again, I was away for a few days.
@John_K: I am using 4 ceramic magnets (25x10x6mm) but I don't know what grade they are, it was not on the specifications and it was the only place that I could find suitable magnets. I am using copper coated welding core rods of about 1.6mm thickness although I don't know the brand. I have made my setup so I can set it vertical or horizontal at will, when I was taking amp draw readings the orientation didn't seem to have any difference at all so I left it horizontal for ease of use. I am aware that I'm supposed to have as short connections as possible but I didn't want to solder anything because I'm still trying different things. Do you have personal experience with these adjustments and if so what difference did it make in your results? Also I do use a 1k potensiometer as I have mentioned previously, I just don't have it in the picture I posted. For the amp reading I use an analog multimeter. I didn't get a standalone ammeter because since they are both analog I figured it would be the same. No? But the fact is that the ammeter changes somewhat the behaviour of the system when it is attached.
@realmikel: I used the 1n4148 diode because I couldn't find the 1n914, and it was recommented to me as good alternative. Would you suggest some other diode that I could try and see if it makes any difference? The wires I used for the coil were the closest I could find at the time in sufficient quantity and without paying 2-3 times the price for it.I don't know about parallel resonance, so if you have any good links handy please send them to me so I can take a look. Also I'd be interested to know if you have experience with this setup, what results you achieved as well as details of your system.

realmikel
07-22-2012, 09:22 PM
Suggestions for diode? Exactly what the schematic calls for. Wire for coils? Exactly what the schematic calls for. I entered this discussion because you were claiming the device did not perform according to claims. Your first lesson here is that if you want the device to match the claims then you must exactly match the schematic. Changes are okay if you understand the circuit well enough to recognise what the changes will change in the performance. Your lack of understanding of parallel resonance explains why you can not understand the importance for the wire size no matter what the cost. I pointed out the minimal parts to indicate that the capacitance for the parallel resonance is based on something out of a madman muntz tv. The spacing of the wires based on the size of the wire, the core, the insulation thickness, the tightness of the winding, and the exact dimensions of the coil all affect the inherent capacitance of the coil and likewise the resonant frequency. The best movie of the importance of resonant frequency was made by mit and i am not able to find it any longer. It had a bulb in the input circuit and a bulb in the tank. When resonance was hit the bulb to the input would go out because so little power absorbed into the circuit, yet the bulb in the tank would stay lit because the tank was still operating at full capacity. Mit may still have up a youtube showing the lighting or dimming of a single bulb from resonance. Your suggestion that you can get up to speed on resonance with a site or two is something I will pass on. My experience is immaterial. You probably have no idea who muntz is or how interesting his designs were. Your second lesson here is to learn who is guiding you well and is knowledgable. That is your task not mine to brag about what I know. Search for" lcr resonance by mit video".