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jake
03-03-2012, 03:54 PM
Well it's not magic(sorry 4 the deception) but it is a radio, my first. It works and I can hear the one station I was hoping for; 1620kHz, 10,000 watts, 6 miles away.

I started this because of

Here is how the contest works. We learn how to make a "Crystal Set", just as everybody should. It is a "Rite of Passage". A crystal set is an A.M. radio that uses no battery, the magnification factor of its tank circuit powers the radio. Hence it can be seen that the A.M. broadcast station's transmitted energy is powering the crystal set, JUST AS TESLA ENVISIONED. Wow Mr. Wizard that is fantastic. Let's start today.
Break more to follow

Problem: It was easy, very easy. No matter what I do I can hear this station. I was expecting to have to "tune in" this station. So instead I minimized the components. An inductor(300uH, 60 turns, 20gauge), 1N34 germanium diode, crystal ear bud, and antenna(just about everything works(10 feet of 20 gauge, my body, cookie sheet, and even a beer can)) Some work better than others.
No capacitor??? Holding the coil is the best capacitor I found.
No ground. If I connect it to ground I either get a 60Hz hum when I use a water pipe or lower volume if I stick 2 feet of 6 gauge in the ground. I guess that means I need a better ground. Off to home depot for 10' water pipes.

Two questions for the group: (the goal is to maximize the reception of 1620kHz with only a crystal ear piece)

-There are a number of online calculators that allow you to calculate capatance for a given inductance or inductance for a given capatance, both for a given frequency? What "ratio" works best? (is it better to have more capatance or more inductance).

-Ground-What is good enough? Does it keep getting better as your ground system grows and gets deeper. Is it better to go deeper or wider(radial star like Dollard describes) I have lots of clay around here and I am going to try to water drill with the copper pipe as it goes down. How much better would 20' be over 10'?

Ok more than 2 questions but I'm learning.:thumbsup:

gyula
03-03-2012, 07:46 PM
Hi Jake,

Your biggest "problem" (may sound strange) is your closeness to the 10kW AM station... I mean the station makes too much field strength this is why almost anything behaves like an antenna, touching the coil makes big changes, etc.

First I would suggest using a coupling coil of 10-15 turns, placed to the bottom of your big air core coil, this coupling coil upper wire end would be connected to a 1 or 2m long wire (this latter serves as an antenna) and the lower end would go to Earth. Do not connect the big coil lower end to the coupling coil's earth point, ok?
Then you should find the capacitor needed for resonating your big coil to be a parallel LC circuit at 1620kHz. If you have now 300uH, then you would need 32.2pF to tune it to 1620kHz, the best would be to use a 40pF or 60pF trimmer capacitor. See link later for online LC calculator.
Then see this schematic here and I suggest making another 20-22 turn coil (not critical) onto your big air core coil, also to its bottom part, maybe over to the coupling coil mentioned above, this newer coil would serve as the L4 coil does in this schematic:
http://hibp.ecse.rpi.edu/~john/hi_power_xtal_set.gif
and you would need the diodes D1, D2, C3 and C4 of course, your crystal earpiece would connect to points A and B directly. (Do not connect this second coil to the earth point either.)

See this link where the schematics is referred to, it may be useful reading for you: High-Power Crystal Radio (http://hibp.ecse.rpi.edu/~john/xtal.html)

I think your water tap earth is good enough but connect it ONLY to the antenna coupling coil I mentioned making first above, then you should not have 60Hz hum.

Another possibility is to use an AM ferrite antenna, like seen here:
Scotts Electronics Ferrite Loopstick Antenna Coil Crystal Radio Coils AM Coils (http://www.angelfire.com/electronic2/index1/loopstick.html) but if you google you can find elsewhere too. Of course you do not have to make any antenna coupling coil for it, the Litze wire coil on the rod completes the antenna and if you choose the 680uh Litz wire coil with a tap at 470uh about 20 turns from end, then this 20 turn can serve as L4 for the diodes (you can separate the two wires which led out as a twisted wire to make the tap). This 680uH ferrite antenna needs 14pF capacitor across it.
I used this online calculator:
LC Resonance Calculator (http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/LC-Resonance-Calculator.phtml)
(Notice the L value needs to be entered in nH, not in uH and f is in MHz.)

Normally it is better here to use higher L and lower C values but because of you want to receive a station at the very edge of the AM band the usual coils used for AM reception seems too high in value this is why so small pF value the tuning capacitor has (14pF or 32pF). You may wish to remove say 10-15 turns from your 60 turn air core coil to reduce its inductance and then increase the tuning cap higher or when using ferrite antenna the coil on the rod can be slided a bit off towards and / or beyond the rod's edge. The small cap values needed for 1620kHz resonance with such 300-680uH coils explain why you found good reception when you were holding the coil: your hand and body capacitance, your close presence to the coil supplied the 32pF tuning...

Hope this helps,

Gyula

jake
03-03-2012, 10:03 PM
That is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. I appreciate it very much. I suffered information overload when I tried searching for the "ideal" capatance/inductance ratio. There are just so many ways to do it there does not seem to be an ideal way.

Im off to snip, tap, wind, and take off some turns.

Thanks,

jake
03-07-2012, 04:07 AM
I mean: I know what the ground is for but if you can receive a radio signal fine without a ground connection what additional benefit would you get if you attache to a good ground??

gyula
03-07-2012, 09:54 PM
IF you can receive a station fine without ground connection, then I do not think you need ground for THAT station. I think it all depends on the sufficient field strength for a radio station at a particular location, a good ground can contribute to a much better reception (in a given receiving antenna case) when you wish to listen to a distant station which does not have a strong field 'presence' at your location.
What additional benefit? In your 6 miles away station case probably nothing (I have never had such chance lol), though you could probably use an even shorter piece of wire when you have a good ground. Remember the station transmitter antenna for the AM bands usually works against a big ground system and an isolated metal tower of a given vertical length is the radiator. So in a distant station case you can benefit from grounding because radiated station energy is taken also from the ground, not only from the 'air'.

Gyula

dR-Green
03-07-2012, 11:35 PM
I mean: I know what the ground is for but if you can receive a radio signal fine without a ground connection what additional benefit would you get if you attache to a good ground??

A Tesla receiver won't work without the ground because it's designed to receive the underground signal. Herein lies the fallacy of so-called "wireless energy transmission" :thumbsup:

jake
03-26-2012, 02:18 AM
So once I felt confortable with a typical crystal radio and could tune most of the stations on the high end of the AM band. I started to put together a Tesla Resonant Transformer. This is part of the crystal initative on the Dollard Thread.

Below are the results of three generations of coil formers. The former you see is stout and will allow you to pull the wire tight while winding. I am still missing the primary, topload, capacitors. BUT

It blows my crystal radio with tuning capacitor away. Attached are some pics. The DSO pic is my night time reception it came down from 1.3v earlier this afternoon with +4v peaks. This got me excited for a while but then I realized that my scope maxes out at 1MHz. Your looking at 1.62MHz rectified
audio. 100us/div and 50mv/div, the yellow line is 500mv.

Do these numbers mean anything or is working out of the range of my scope produce garbage numbrs???

And finally I was able to dimly light an LED in line with the germanium diode.

Any one know how to hook up a joule theif without loading down the circuit??

It looks like there is enought there to run one but doing it without loading down the circuit is eluding me.

madhatter
03-26-2012, 05:24 PM
the primary coil is key to the ground receptive part of the set. the primary and secondary resonate and based on the capacitance and geometry the radiation resistance will be eliminated in the extra coil giving rise to FTL reception. On my set the primary is not large enough as I based it purely on surface area however after reading the reports of others and noting their relations and the effects between my set, I tentatively state that the surface area of winding capacitance is what needs to me matched, not the bulk surface area. I'm working on the equations to see what this turns up. I'm also looking at the skin effect and mass as well, no point in leaving any stone unturned.

Nice build btw, looks good. the extra coils is such a PITA to wind too. I wouldn't worry about 'skip' distance from being too close to the transmitter in fact I'd say that's a prime example of ground current reception, proof that this works.

jake
03-27-2012, 03:01 AM
For example, the crystal set is a prime example of a information rich effects. I personally have the set built but have not gotten the results I want, however it's not been without results as it as given me answers to questions on capacitance by noting the differences in my results to others. however lets say we have one build that is catalog'd and every parameter of the physical construction known. from that it can be altered and the changes noted and then using that it can direct the mathematics to derive the needed equations to refine and move forward.

right now the one thing I've seen is the surface area and capacitance equations, capacitance is frustrating itself as it's always an assumed infinite plane yet we know it's not. high frequency skin effect and resistance of the mass of the 'director' and the geometry all play a role, as seen it gets very complex. I've spent a couple hundred hrs already on just calculations and have now just started to notice a few things I'd like to explore, with some more research into hyperbolic trig I may have some equations that can be tested in the field. I'll share this freely with anyone willing to test on their crystal sets. ultimately I'd like to see if we can all build matching sets and see if we can network them together as Tesla intended.

I am thinking the same thing. Matching sets would get noticed. Im thinking somewhere in the 2-3MHz range. That would make everything smaller and the brass shim stock would fit the bill. You could put that together for under 50 bucks. But we'd have to find a transmitter for the testing.

but before we get too far ahead of ourselves. We need to light an indicator bulb.


As far as my build. I am still looking for a long enough flat piece of copper.. I sent out a few emails looking for overruns, but the standard size seems to be 100" and I need 118". I found a thin walled copper tube at the scrap yard and bought enough.. Ive been contemplating slicing it open and flattening it out.

and now back to what I think was your point. The math needed to go along with the cyrstal initative. I want it. Been doing lots of thinking.

Lets start simple.. and I am really look forward to hearing from all those interested..

How do you calculate the C and K of a TRT secondary?
How do you calculate the L and M of a TRT secondary?
i.e. 20 turns(T), wire diameter(d) in mm, turn gap(g) in mm,

Can we even use the standard inductance and capacitance equations or are they contaminated? bring on the versors


Ill post my answer tomorrow? after I watch the SFTS videos If i can think of one.

:thumbsup:


jake

madhatter
03-27-2012, 04:56 AM
I am thinking the same thing. Matching sets would get noticed. Im thinking somewhere in the 2-3MHz range. That would make everything smaller and the brass shim stock would fit the bill. You could put that together for under 50 bucks. But we'd have to find a transmitter for the testing.

but before we get too far ahead of ourselves. We need to light an indicator bulb.


As far as my build. I am still looking for a long enough flat piece of copper.. I sent out a few emails looking for overruns, but the standard size seems to be 100" and I need 118". I found a thin walled copper tube at the scrap yard and bought enough.. Ive been contemplating slicing it open and flattening it out.

and now back to what I think was your point. The math needed to go along with the cyrstal initative. I want it. Been doing lots of thinking.

Lets start simple.. and I am really look forward to hearing from all those interested..

How do you calculate the C and K of a TRT secondary?
How do you calculate the L and M of a TRT secondary?
i.e. 20 turns(T), wire diameter(d) in mm, turn gap(g) in mm,

Can we even use the standard inductance and capacitance equations or are they contaminated? bring on the versors


Ill post my answer tomorrow? after I watch the SFTS videos If i can think of one.

:thumbsup:


jake

Here is where hyperbolic algebra come in, Alexander Macfarlane has some very good books on hyperbolic and elliptical algebra. useful eq. for adapting to the coils can be found in Kennelys work as he does utilize Steinmetz and Heaviside's operators making it easier to cross reference his work.

the complex quantities notes of Steinmetz are also very helpful in explaining the j operator and power of the square root of -1.

jake
03-27-2012, 05:16 PM
Here is where hyperbolic algebra come in, Alexander Macfarlane has some very good books on hyperbolic and elliptical algebra. useful eq. for adapting to the coils can be found in Kennelys work as he does utilize Steinmetz and Heaviside's operators making it easier to cross reference his work.

the complex quantities notes of Steinmetz are also very helpful in explaining the j operator and power of the square root of -1.

Thats where I am having trouble. I need to study.

So if all the adapting and math is down would it be able to calculate "values" for C,K,L,M and thier ratios at any point during the cycle of a TRT??? <---Please answer pretty please.. any one. What are the roadblocks?


That would help enormously in tuning the setup. It's almost impossible to tune three coils with 4 parameters that are changing without having either a solid math foundation or a natural ability to feel what you are doing. I'm working with the former at the moment. I'm not thinking about numbers; just C,K,M,L and what they are doing at every spot in the setup at every point in the cycle and and how I can add, reduce, and change their "rate".

Am I talking jibberish? or just a few months behind.
currently rewatching video 3 of the SFTS.



Also regarding the surface area aspect... Don't give up on mass just yet. Tesla's use of the word "stout" appears in lots of primaries.

My primary was calculated to 3m by 8.4cm by 0.1mm for a grand total of 26.4 cm^3.. Does that sound stout to you?

madhatter
03-27-2012, 09:31 PM
Thats where I am having trouble. I need to study.

So if all the adapting and math is down would it be able to calculate "values" for C,K,L,M and thier ratios at any point during the cycle of a TRT??? <---Please answer pretty please.. any one. What are the roadblocks?


parametric changes are nearly impossible to calculate as they would occur on the fly and you'd need to run a simulator to get close. there is no program in existence that can do that for these parameters. you can get a rough layout that would need 'tuning' with the math and knowledge available at the moment.

Hyperbolic geometry is closer to nature, the cantenary slope is a prime example. a rope hung between two points exhibits this form. what also needs to be added into the equation is counter-space, due to the time invariant 'dimension' of the dielectric.

That would help enormously in tuning the setup. It's almost impossible to tune three coils with 4 parameters that are changing without having either a solid math foundation or a natural ability to feel what you are doing. I'm working with the former at the moment. I'm not thinking about numbers; just C,K,M,L and what they are doing at every spot in the setup at every point in the cycle and and how I can add, reduce, and change their "rate".

Am I talking jibberish? or just a few months behind.
currently rewatching video 3 of the SFTS.



Also regarding the surface area aspect... Don't give up on mass just yet. Tesla's use of the word "stout" appears in lots of primaries.

My primary was calculated to 3m by 8.4cm by 0.1mm for a grand total of 26.4 cm^3.. Does that sound stout to you?

I'm still researching every day, it's an undeveloped field. the majority of mathematics of manifolds and abstract algebra all conform to relativity, that makes it that much harder to develop a working set of equations as one needs to filter out the conforming terms and relations. it's mighty pervasive, one of the reasons why the bulk of reference material is pre-1927.

around the turn of the century there was a divide on quaternions as well, Alexander Macfarlane also postulated with hyperbolic quaternions and that can be seen in his lectures on the mathematics of space.

so an abstract non relativistic conforming algebraic hyperbolic counter-space geometry needs to be developed it would seem. a simple thing really:eek:

I don't abide by the reductionist view of quantum physics or a static state. we exist in a dynamic interconnected manifold, one change effects all. any equations that try to handle this will have a type of 'Heisenberg' uncertainty to use it loosely, it's ever changing and a static 'snapshot' will not explain the dynamic relations. personally I think true advancement will occur when apparatus become 'living' not sentient but more organic. loose terms there, but think of a plant vs a solar panel, the solar panel is rigidly fixed in it's parameters where the plant can adapt and change as needed constantly.

I've diverged enough there. To make any real gains a framework needs to be developed to model the manifold of the dielectric and then develop the basics of each phenomen, i.e. the e,E,I,i k K,c etc...

jake
03-31-2012, 05:11 PM
Does anyone have tips for soldering 14ga solid to 1/2" copper pipe?

Do you wrap the wire around the pipe and solder all the way around or just solder ~1/2" however???

Still trying to calculate MKLC. Watching SFTS videos again this time taking notes.

@ mad

What do you mean by manifold?

Parav
03-31-2012, 05:40 PM
Does anyone have tips for soldering 14ga solid to 1/2" copper pipe?

Do you wrap the wire around the pipe and solder all the way around or just solder ~1/2" however???

Still trying to calculate MKLC. Watching SFTS videos again this time taking notes.

@ mad

What do you mean by manifold?

Hi Jake,

To solder together thick pieces of solder , an ordinary soldering iron just does not provide enough heat as the heat gets dissipated into the thicker material too easily.
Use a propane torch -like what plumbers use to solder copper pipe fittings.
Also , make sure that the copper pipe is lightly sanded at the area you want to soldered -to get rid of the oxidization---or use that flux paste plumbers use to help clean off the oxidization while it's being soldered . Good luck--[I] hope this helps.

Paul

Parav
03-31-2012, 05:42 PM
Hi Jake,

To solder together thick pieces of solder , an ordinary soldering iron just does not provide enough heat as the heat gets dissipated into the thicker material too easily.
Use a propane torch -like what plumbers use to solder copper pipe fittings.
Also , make sure that the copper pipe is lightly sanded at the area you want to soldered -to get rid of the oxidization---or use that flux paste plumbers use to help clean off the oxidization while it's being soldered . Good luck--[I] hope this helps.

Paul

oops typo-- I meant when soldering two pieces of thicker copper together

madhatter
04-01-2012, 05:28 AM
Here's a decent explanation on manifolds.
Manifold - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold)

jake
04-09-2012, 04:00 PM
On a TRT secondary and extra coil:

{extra coil}------{secondary}-----Ground

If I tap between the extra coil and secondary run a germanium diode, my body, and LED in series to ground I can dimly light the led.

{top of secondary}--{+germanium diode-}---{right hand}---{body}----{left hand}---{+LED-}----Ground

The LED will show light and its getting brighter the more I learn.

Is this a normal RF???:confused:

I can see 2.2v avg across the LED when I leave my body out of the circuit. 2.6max and 2.5pp. These are all estimated because the values fluctuate with the broadcast signal. They stabalize a bit when I put a 330pF cap across the LED.
Also adding capacitance to the lead that goes from secondary to diode in the form of me touching the insulated lead has a large effect. I was able to recreate this effect using a the piece of aluminium(i.e. the ground terminals of a dule gang air variable cap). Using the variable cap the way it should be used did not work. Made things completely stop working and the voltage dissapear. I found this on accident.

So is this something you would see on a typical crystal radio?
Is it RF or somethine else?

xee2
04-09-2012, 11:03 PM
So is this something you would see on a typical crystal radio?


Not unless the antenna was near a strong RF source. Do you have any radio or TV transmit towers near you? If you watch MrFlathunter (Seth) videos you will see he is able to light things with his passive resonator but only if near the transmitting exciter.

jake
04-10-2012, 01:53 AM
Not unless the antenna was near a strong RF source. Do you have any radio or TV transmit towers near you? If you watch MrFlathunter (Seth) videos you will see he is able to light things with his passive resonator but only if near the transmitting exciter.

I have a 10kw AM station about 6 miles away. I looked up mrflathunter and found two more that show similar results of dimly lighting LEDs with nothing but a coil and diode. Do you have any advice on how to run a joule theif off these? I listed the voltages I can measure above.

xee2
04-10-2012, 01:56 AM
Does anyone have tips for soldering 14ga solid to 1/2" copper pipe?

Do you wrap the wire around the pipe and solder all the way around or just solder ~1/2" however???

Still trying to calculate MKLC. Watching SFTS videos again this time taking notes.

@ mad

What do you mean by manifold?

Solder wire to standoff. Attach standoff to pipe with screw.

xee2
04-10-2012, 02:07 AM
Do you have any advice on how to run a joule theif off these?


I have posted a number of low power Joule thief circuits. This may be a good choice ... no toroid Joule thief 3 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUsWevHC-jA&list=UUNW01OXgXcGSWjC1cRLUjfw&index=26&feature=plcp)

Rectify radio output with diode and capacitor. Run Joule thief from capacitor. You will need at least 0.5 to 0.7 volts to run Joule thief. You do not need 10,000 uF capacitor, use what ever you have. Reduce resistor value to make LED brighter.

Same circuit with toroid >> 2 uA Joule thief - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T9HQkDnIuU&list=UUNW01OXgXcGSWjC1cRLUjfw&index=29&feature=plcp)

jake
04-12-2012, 02:58 AM
I have posted a number of low power Joule thief circuits. This may be a good choice ... no toroid Joule thief 3 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUsWevHC-jA&list=UUNW01OXgXcGSWjC1cRLUjfw&index=26&feature=plcp)

Rectify radio output with diode and capacitor. Run Joule thief from capacitor. You will need at least 0.5 to 0.7 volts to run Joule thief. You do not need 10,000 uF capacitor, use what ever you have. Reduce resistor value to make LED brighter.

Same circuit with toroid >> 2 uA Joule thief - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T9HQkDnIuU&list=UUNW01OXgXcGSWjC1cRLUjfw&index=29&feature=plcp)


Wish I had seen that before I untwisted 500 feet of 20 gauge bell wire. That would have been fun to try with 500'.

Thanks,

jake
04-12-2012, 03:06 AM
jake, use a full wave germanium bridge and filter caps.

Are you saying ditch the joule thief and just add a bridge?

:thinking:

Can't be that simple can it?

Kokomoj0
04-12-2012, 03:13 AM
I said this in the other thread, make a ful wave bridge out of your germ diodes and use filter caps. I would be shocked if you couls pull in any amount of power like that because of the low current density. The whole idea of pulling "significant" power off of these radio stations seems absurd to me.

Kokomoj0
04-12-2012, 03:14 AM
Are you saying ditch the joule thief and just add a bridge?

:thinking:

Can't be that simple can it?


It will give you filtered dc, then you can do with it what you want.


you know thinking about it you may not be able to do a fw bridge, maybe only 1/2 wave, I forget the ckt config.

jake
04-12-2012, 04:41 AM
I said this in the other thread, make a ful wave bridge out of your germ diodes and use filter caps. I would be shocked if you couls pull in any amount of power like that because of the low current density. The whole idea of pulling "significant" power off of these radio stations seems absurd to me.

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

File:Replica-of-first-transistor.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Replica-of-first-transistor.jpg)

I like this picture. It says alot about what we can do once we learn how.

I've learned alot about working with radio frequency just tuning the basic crystal radio.

So far my TRT is a Just a large crystal radio with two coils. But it will light an LED continuously all day when the station is @ 10kW. It's dim but it's on. Not blinking(filter cap), one germanium diode and led across the secondary.

It may all be just standard RF reception. I don't know yet. I didn't think that would be possible. But it's not tuned yet. Unless I got it right the first rime. :rofl:

The full wave should help as long as the extra voltage drop does not cause problems.

Thanks,
:v-peace:

Kokomoj0
04-12-2012, 11:38 PM
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/johnpolakow/crystaldiagram.jpg

jake
04-14-2012, 02:57 AM
As the distance between the primary and secondary is increased the resonant frequency of the coil increases ~5-10kHz per inch and the amperage measured between the can and the top of the secondary also goes up.

Any ideas?
I'm playing with the secondary and primary like in

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/web000x/TMTResonanceTestProcedure.jpg

I did not post this in the Dollard thread because I am missing the split ring on top. I am also using more of a current indicator with an adjustable range for readings so there are no actual values I cam use.

Currently the best frequency is 2200kHz. But this will change(+\-500kHz) depending on the evil clip leads being used and how they are laid out. I flattened some 14 gauge and need to get that soldered in place.

jake
04-16-2012, 03:34 PM
I'm getting lonely. Is anyone else getting ANY results out of the crystal radio initiative setup?

xee2
04-17-2012, 01:16 AM
Any ideas?


Nice drawings.

When the two coils are close they "load" each other. This increases inductance of each coil, decreases Q of resonators, and provides more energy transfer between coils. In crystal radios increasing coupling between coils will provide more energy transfer but also decrease resonator Q. Usually minimum coupling is best since this produces highest resonator Q. If both coils are resonant at the same frequency then the Q of one coil will increase the effective Q of the other coil. This is how coupled resonator filters work. But the resonant frequency will change as the coils are brought closer together so they must be re-tuned after they are moved closer together.

I suggest you try coupling two parallel resonant circuits and tune to same frequency. This should give improved reception. Best if you can tune to frequency of near by radio station.

Or just make one parallel resonant circuit with large coil and weakly couple to it with a single loop or a small capacitor.

I would think your power detector would work better if the diode was in series with the amp meter. The circuit you have would work with a volt meter.

Please keep posting your results. I hope you will be able to light an LED from the RF signal.

Web000x
04-17-2012, 03:05 AM
Jake,

Eric said that it is not easy to get three coils to resonate together. It took him about a year at Landers to properly tune his receiver. As xee2 was saying, your magnification factor (Q) will be much higher if you can get the coils into a symbiotic resonance. This heightened magnification factor is apparently what allowed Eric to light the light bulb.

He also said that if you are having trouble getting these coils to resonate then don't use the extra coil and it would still work. However, I don't know if this will light a light bulb without the heightened magnification factor. This might just be for a telluric receiver.

Have you tried using an aerial (dipole) and the TMT style antenna at the same time for a comparison on an oscilloscope? This is what Eric is talking about in order to see the difference in phase angle of the two signals to see that the telluric transmission is propagated faster than the above ground transmission. This would be the evidence of a faster than light propagation.

Dave

jake
04-17-2012, 03:14 AM
The credit for the drawings goes to Eric Dollard. Those are his pictures from the Dollard thread.

And the LED is lit. I am able to take the large 20 turn coil and attach it to either my fireplace or stove vent hood or large metal object(i.e. antenna) and light an LED to a decent glow. It is not full brightness but it was constant and even my wife freaked out a little when I said there was no battery. The other end of the coil has a Dr Pep can.

My first attemts to get a joule thief to brighten up the light were a failure but I will revisit the JT idea a little later as attaching the coil to an antenna now allowes me to light the LED to a level that does not require the JT.

Without attaching to an antenna I can only sometimes get a very faint glow.

ALSO this coil is not resonant at 1620kHz. This is the station that is supplying the power. It is 10kw more than 5 miles away. And at night it goes down to 1kw. Even at night I can see very very faint blips of the LED.

The coil attached to the fireplace surround and DP can is resonant at ~2200kHz depending on where and how I excite it. I KNOW that LED will go balistic if I can get it tuned to 1620. Using a function generator at 1620 will not light the led. Turning it to 2200 will light the LED beyond a glow and one might say bright enough.

PROBLEM!! - Tuning for brightness does not seem to like external capacitors and REALLY does not like alligator clip leads. To get it to where it is now required respacing the turns of the coil and tapping the coil in the right spot. but even that does not let it drop down to 1620:thinking:

Eventually when I figure out how to tune the coil without needing capacitors I will move on to the extra coil. Using the extra coil now will either help or hinder depending on what I have going on. So I took it off and will revist it when I get the secondary(large 20 turn coil) to 1620.

jake
04-17-2012, 03:51 AM
Jake,

Eric said that it is not easy to get three coils to resonate together. It took him about a year at Landers to properly tune his receiver. As xee2 was saying, your magnification factor (Q) will be much higher if you can get the coils into a symbiotic resonance. This heightened magnification factor is apparently what allowed Eric to light the light bulb.

He also said that if you are having trouble getting these coils to resonate then don't use the extra coil and it would still work. However, I don't know if this will light a light bulb without the heightened magnification factor. This might just be for a telluric receiver.

Have you tried using an aerial (dipole) and the TMT style antenna at the same time for a comparison on an oscilloscope? This is what Eric is talking about in order to see the difference in phase angle of the two signals to see that the telluric transmission is propagated faster than the above ground transmission. This would be the evidence of a faster than light propagation.

Dave


I saw this post after I posted my last post.

It is quite a troubleshooting mission to tune three coils. I am having extream difficulty tuning one and I don't even know if I am doing that right. but I think I am getting a feel for it. Its hard to tell how much of the tuning should be done with distributed elements alone. As I noted in my last post adding a capacitor no matter how tiny seems to reduce performance. Putting my hand ~1" from the soda can peaks performance. Touching the can kills it.

I have assembled all that is necessary for version 2. It will be the same dimensions as the first unless I can figure out how to lower the resonant frequency about 400kHz. Instead of using 14ga I will be using 2.21mm OD x 0.91mm ID copper tubing. This will more than double the active copper compared to what I have now. I don't know how important that is but it feels right. The primary will have slightly more and can be narrowed down to match. Same for the copper plate primary cap. Now thats a lot of copper. Trust me I have been buying it by the pound at the scrap yard as it comes in.


I do not have a scope capable of the comparison. But I am sure if I can light a 100w light bulb my wife will let me buy one.:suprise:

Thanks for the input.

dR-Green
04-17-2012, 04:22 AM
I am having extream difficulty tuning one and I don't even know if I am doing that right. but I think I am getting a feel for it. Its hard to tell how much of the tuning should be done with distributed elements alone. As I noted in my last post adding a capacitor no matter how tiny seems to reduce performance. Putting my hand ~1" from the soda can peaks performance. Touching the can kills it.

Use a metal plate connected to earth/bottom of the secondary with adjustable distance from the can, and position it for peak performance. It won't like a variable cap very much across the secondary (unless maybe it actually goes down to zero pF), the type with rotating plates. I think vacuum variable caps might be usable here but they are expensive, so a metal plate near the can should do the trick. You can also lower the frequency by using a bigger can/pieces of metal. I think it's the surface area that applies in this case. Try connecting progressively larger pieces of metal and see what happens.

Also the bulb that Eric has recommended since is 28v 1.12 watt. I think that will be quite a task. The most I've seen on the scope with my flat spiral coil is 210mV so there's no possibility of lighting the bulb with that. I expect I need much better grounding which will be done at some point, but there's no way of adjusting the windings either so that's about the most I'll be able to do with that coil for the moment. [edit] Although I'm not entirely sure if it will even be possible with a flat spiral at all :thinking:

Web000x
04-17-2012, 04:27 AM
I saw this post after I posted my last post.

It is quite a troubleshooting mission to tune three coils. I am having extream difficulty tuning one and I don't even know if I am doing that right. but I think I am getting a feel for it. Its hard to tell how much of the tuning should be done with distributed elements alone. As I noted in my last post adding a capacitor no matter how tiny seems to reduce performance. Putting my hand ~1" from the soda can peaks performance. Touching the can kills it.

I have assembled all that is necessary for version 2. It will be the same dimensions as the first unless I can figure out how to lower the resonant frequency about 400kHz. Instead of using 14ga I will be using 2.21mm OD x 0.91mm ID copper tubing. This will more than double the active copper compared to what I have now. I don't know how important that is but it feels right. The primary will have slightly more and can be narrowed down to match. Same for the copper plate primary cap. Now thats a lot of copper. Trust me I have been buying it by the pound at the scrap yard as it comes in.


I do not have a scope capable of the comparison. But I am sure if I can light a 100w light bulb my wife will let me buy one.:suprise:

Thanks for the input.

I assume that you are using the resonance detection method that Eric had me post recently?

As far dropping the resonant frequency of your coil, Eric had nothing to go off of except his memory for developing those formulas for design parameters. This is all in the experimental stage of getting these formulas correct. It is possible that you need to readjust the constants given by Eric by setting the coil dimensions equal to the measured resonance/constant relations and solve for a new constant. Then you could more precisely target the desired frequency in your next build. That is what I would do anyway if I were trying to adjust the frequency.

Are you trying to parallel a cap with the secondary? I think it needs to resonate at the desired frequency without a cap.

Also, are you finding that there are two resonant frequencies for the secondary that exist in a pi/2 proportionate relation?

Dave

Web000x
04-17-2012, 04:57 AM
Also the bulb that Eric has recommended since is 28v 1.12 watt. I think that will be quite a task. The most I've seen on the scope with my flat spiral coil is 210mV so there's no possibility of lighting the bulb with that. I expect I need much better grounding which will be done at some point, but there's no way of adjusting the windings either so that's about the most I'll be able to do with that coil for the moment. [edit] Although I'm not entirely sure if it will even be possible with a flat spiral at all :thinking:

It is hard to catch every detail that Eric throws me when I speak to him, but I am almost certain that there needs to be an extra coil in order to get the magnification factor to skyrocket which will in turn light the light bulb. I don't think I've seen an extra coil on your setup, or have I?

Dave

jake
04-17-2012, 05:29 AM
Yes there is another point at ~7200kHz. It's small by comparison to the other.

I was using the method you posted for the secondary to the best of my knoledge. But that's not much. Here is what I did:

For the test coil I used a pretty stout flat copper strip. I could only get it around two times. Placing the function generator across 1 turn of the test coil I set it to work. (always wanted to say that) I was not sure what the 50ohms was for but I figured it was accounted for by the 50 in the function generator.
:(
Come to think of it I was not grounded. Or not grounded well. I will try again tomorrow outside where I have a semi decent ground. Am I correct about the 50ohms? Does the size of wire on the test coil matter?

And yes I have/had an extra coil. I took it off and things started to get better. That's when I realized something was wrong. Then you posted the tuning diagrams and I left it off. But the wire loosened up and now it has shorts all over the place. I'm using uninsulated wire for everything. I think I will move to insulated on my next extra coil.

Web000x
04-17-2012, 02:52 PM
That is not the frequency that I'm looking for. See if your meter shows any response around 1400 KHz or 3455 KHz.

I could be wrong but I think that there is not supposed to be a resistor in the excitation loop since there is no symbolic representation of one in the drawing. My interpretation of it is that if you have a function generator with an impedance of 50 ohm then you would use a 1 turn loop with no resistor and for 500 ohm impedance a 3 turn loop with no resistor. This is because you are interested in delivering the magnetizing force to the loop rather than trying to get a maximum power transfer between the oscillator and the excitation loop (where the majority of power would be delivered to the resistance). Try it with and without the resistor just to see if there is a difference.

Also, nobody will light a lightbulb without a GOOD ground. When I was quizzing Eric about how good a 'good ground' might be he said that the ground is a horrible conductor of electricity and that what you are really doing is creating a capacitive coupling to the Earth with the wires so make sure you have PLENTY of wires laying down against or buried in the Earth.

Dave

xee2
04-17-2012, 02:54 PM
Eventually when I figure out how to tune the coil without needing capacitors


To lower frequency just increase inductance (increase number of turns keeping everything else the same).

Suggestion: make coil with a lot of extra turns and then cut off turns until the frequency is where you want it.

jake
04-17-2012, 04:45 PM
@ Web000x:
Good Grounding is on the horizon. What do you think of Eric's recommendation of the 80 ground radials? Is this needed in addition to the 16 ground rods or can this be used in place of the 16 rods. It would be easier to lay out compared to the rods. but the center rod will be 10-20' deep in good soil.

@ xee2:
I wish it was that easy. Problem is the coil I am using now was calculated to have a specific diameter, hight and length. I can't change one without screwing up the others.

BUT I have a slightly smaller diameter cardboard tube. I think it would be a good idea to build a setup based on you way of thinking then I could compare the two. Smaller diameter will allow more turns greater induction for same length of wire.
Can't wait to get out of work.

Web000x
04-17-2012, 05:19 PM
It sounds like he is saying that the 16 ground rods should be used if you are in a place that stays relatively moist. If the ground is dry sand or rock, you need to use the 80 ground rods of 14 gauge wire. I don't see why you could not use the 80 rod configuration in normal soil. (But I am also not Eric. I'll ask when he calls me next)

Be careful about using solid tubing to wrap coils. The dielectric constant needs to be a minimum. Anything above relative dielectric constant = 1 will retard the wave. This is why Eric builds all of his transformers with wooden dowels, to expose the wires to the dielectric constant of air.

Dave

xee2
04-17-2012, 09:42 PM
BUT I have a slightly smaller diameter cardboard tube. I think it would be a good idea to build a setup based on you way of thinking then I could compare the two. Smaller diameter will allow more turns greater induction for same length of wire.
Can't wait to get out of work.

Not exactly true. Here are some links that may help you:

Inductance Calculator (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crystalradio.net%2Fcal%2Findc al.shtml&ei=IuM5TN_FKon6swPArZxS&usg=AFQjCNHmqrKWK8DTARKH-Xga0IYw4wYPTQ)

Web Based Resonant Frequency Calculator (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CCIQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ham-radio.com%2Flc.html&ei=WRBLTP6WHIjSsAO5_5RJ&usg=AFQjCNEIpaPGQFViELmxtAbmdu_y5JHOSQ)

jake
04-20-2012, 04:33 PM
So now I can light the LED to a continious glow at night when the statio is at 1000w. :) The larger primary made that happen. The correct capatance across the primary eliminates all blinking and the little hand is no longer needed.

There is very little improvement when the power goes up in the morning. :thinking:

What it is:

Secondary - 20 turn coil of 14 gauge wrapped according to EPD. With attention to getting the coil to the proper EPD dimensions. So spacing was what it was.

Primary - Almost 2 turns of Stout Flat copper.
84.5mm wide
2857.5mm long(10mm short) Best I Could Do. Now I need to shorten the Secondary
1.35mm thick (STOUT)

I made this from a 1.25"dia copper pipe. Split it lenght wise on a table saw. Hammered an ax down the lenght to open it up. Used pliers to open one end wide enough to get it in a sheet metal roller and rolled it flat in 12 passes.

FWBR - Of 1N34 diodes across the secondary or from almost any point on the secondary to bottom of secondary.

LED - across the DC of the FWBR.

Ground or antenna? - Bottom of secondary is connected to Fireplace shroud/metal chimney. It is grounded via propane copper tubing but it also acts like an antenna since its big metal and sticks out the roof.



coments and questions are welcome.

xee2
04-20-2012, 07:19 PM
So now I can light the LED to a continious glow at night when the statio is at 1000w.


:cheers: Congratulations. Thanks for the report and photo. Is your only antenna the short wire on top of the primary coil (or are you connecting to an external antenna wire in addition to the fireplace ground)? Please post a link to the page where you got the EPD info.

xee2
04-20-2012, 08:33 PM
@ jake

Replacing LED with a capacitor and then using capacitor as a battery for Joule thief circuit should produce brighter LED. You must be getting at least 2 volts out of FWR in order to light the LED so you should have no problem driving a low current Joule thief circuit.

jake
04-21-2012, 01:48 AM
:cheers: Congratulations. Thanks for the report and photo. Is your only antenna the short wire on top of the primary coil (or are you connecting to an external antenna wire in addition to the fireplace ground)? Please post a link to the page where you got the EPD info.


http://www.energeticforum.com/179223-post956.html

First four equations are the most important as far as I can tell. (wire length, turn length, coil diameter, coil hight) Primary width is 18% of coil diameter but I cant find the post. It's somewhere on the "Peter what happened to Eric" thread, search the T-Rex posts. If you can figure out how to incorporate the other items into your build without loosing the first 4 the the better according to EPD. Not having the correct size tube, I used 14 gauge as recommended by Eric. Coax is also recommended by Eric but I felt this was a compromise to another extream, so I went with the 14 gauge solid.

There are a few excell calculators on the yahoo group. I wrote the TRTcalc3.xls. These will do the math for you. If you are not a member PM me and I will send it to you. We cant post excel files here. Now that I think about it I should update that spreadsheet again.

As you know from you exciter experience there are variables in designing a coil. This way, adds a few more variables in the mix. This coil is based on a few ideas EPD described in his writings and old school HAM techniques, brought back to life by EPD. Spaced windings, active copper volume match
and Erics formule were a few of my considerations.

The extra coil is still a bit of a mystery. I am not using one. I made one but I have not figured out what it is supposed to do, and how it does it. Erics dimensions were tenetive(as he described) at best and not all the equations make sense to me at least. I am almost ready to revisit that.

ALSO I got an LED AV plug to glow just as well as the FWBR. One wire to the top of the secondary and another lead off the negative of the LED laying on the tile.

The fireplace is metal and sticks out of the roof so its like an antenna. but its grounded so I dont know what to call it.


EDIT:!!!
OK fireplace not needed!!! :)

I connected to the mains ground and adjusted the CAN, now the LED is on, bottom of the secondary is mains ground and soda can antenna. :)

Leviathan
04-21-2012, 04:10 AM
I don't think this is off topic but this link is to a instruct-able on how to make a Tesla lightning detector. It looks really interesting this guy has videos of his device detecting light, and sound waves as well as EM waves. I've been wanting to build one for a long time but never got around to it ;p

Make the Tesla Spiral Antennas (http://www.instructables.com/id/Spooky-Tesla-Spirit-Radio/step6/Make-the-Tesla-Spiral-Antennas/)

xee2
04-21-2012, 07:43 AM
@ jake

Thanks for the info. I find lighting an LED with just a few feet of wire for an antenna to be impressive. What kink of results did EPD get with his?

jake
04-21-2012, 10:10 PM
This is the theory for the crystal set initative AND an appropriate experiment for validation. To my knowledge it has not been accomplished. It is based on the following post.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1631-peter-whatever-happened-eric-p-dollard-27.html#post173955


Crystal Sets Gone Wild

For the diagram shown the coil dimensions are missing, number of turns, etc. A good ground is essential for these kinds of devices. 16 Ground rods in a 10 to 20 foot radius circle, connected to a single ground rod at the center(17th rod), this connection being 10 gauge wire. Dry sand or rock will not ground, so this requires 80, each 14 gauge wires in a 30 foot diameter circle in a star radial configuration, to a center terminal. Without these groundings a Tesla Transformer cannot properly operate, but some "HI-Z" sets may.

The objective here is to scale the "Crystal Set", a step at a time, into a Tesla Transformer for the reception of medium wave band, 300 - 3000 kilocycle A.M. broadcasts. No license is required for this and the broadcast station provides the power.

And this objective cooperates with the primary objective. That is; Who will be the first ham to disprove Einstein's theory? An International contest, but who will sponsor it, Iran maybe?

We have the good fortune in the "Crystal Set Initiative" that, in theory at least, a quarter wave A.M. broadcast tower, and its 120 quarter wave ground radials, must emit a pair of waves as shown by Tesla in his basic diagrams.



Hence it can be seen that a pair of waves are engendered by this transmission system. (Tower and Star Radials). One wave, Hertzian, is the over ground wave, the other wave, Telluric, is the under ground wave. These two waves arrive at the point of reception in their own distinct time frames, giving rise to a difference in phase. Hence, multiple rings of interference patterns are produced. Since the Hertzian portion, over ground, time frame is based upon the velocity of light, then the Telluric portion, under ground, time frame gives the Telluric velocity. Two crystal sets, one over ground, one under ground, and a basic oscilloscope , that simple. I have done this at Landers.

Concluding, a Tesla Magnification Transformer, properly proportioned can, in theory, actually draw power from a local 50 kW station. Several hundred watts of power reception is likely. This would prove Tesla once and for all. No antenna, just a good ground, and a nice and bright 100 watt light bulb.

This would overturn physics more than any billion dollar C.E.R.N. project. A ham radio operator overturns Einstein for 100 bucks. What a concept.
Read,
Tesla, "The True Wireless"
Tesla, "System of Concatenated Tuned Circuits"
Dollard, "System for the Transmission and Reception of Telluric Electric Waves"
A.R.R.L. "Radio Amatuers Handbook". Chapter "H.F. Transmitters, & Tank Circuits"
73 DE N6 KPH
__________________
If you consider these tranmissions helpful, please donate to Eric Dollard via PayPal at DollardDonations@gmail.com


Some more build info form the "Peter where's Eric" thread that was locked.

I wonder if Aaron could sticky it to the begining of the EPD thread.


Tesla Type Crystal Radio

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The design of the Tesla Transformer starts with the secondary resonant coil. In its resonant mode it is a quadrapolar resonator. Two constants exist in the construction of this solenoidal resonator, one is that the height to length ratio must be 20%, the other is that the side by side spacing of the cylindrical conductor turns is 62% the diameter of the cylindrical conductor. The optimum number of turns is 20 on the secondary, with 2 on the primary. This gives the physical size of the coil for a given frequency. Increasing the number of turns reduces the size of the secondary coil in proportion to the increase in turns. Accordingly the conductor diameter also decreases as the copper is spread out over more windings. The ratio of secondary turns to primary turns must equal a constraint of 10 to 1. For a given number of turns the operating frequency becomes the sole independent variable in coil design.

The primary coil is the same diameter as the secondary coil. The ratio of conductor width to coil diameter is 18%. The sheet conductor is closely spiralled into two turns, for a secondary of twenty turns. For a conductor thickness as given by the maximum thickness vs frequency the volume of the primary metal must equal the volume of the secondary metal, based upon equal weights for primary and secondary metals. Brass can be 1.7 times thicker than copper, and bronze can be 2.8 times thicker than copper, for a given maximum thickness and frequency.

The primary condenser should be made of the same amount of metal as the primary coil. Their weights should be about the same. The connecting leads must be short and the same width as the primary conductor. Large, multiplate air condensers are good, so are metal sheets and glass.

The secondary capacitance is best a copper tubing ring around the outside of the H end of the coil. This ring must be open in one spot along its loop so as not to be a shorted turn. The end of the secondary wire connects to this capacity ring. Beer cans make the best elevated capacitors.

The finished transformer must operate on a directly connected ground plane. A large plywood table with aluminum foil glued on to it, this covered with a plastic or glass sheet is the minimum required ground plane. Obviously the aluminum plane must be solidly earthed with special attention to minimizing ground lead inductance. In order to light a lamp a more broadcast station style of ground plane is required, but for testing purposes the metallized plywood "ten by" sheet is just fine. Good luck and good crystal set DX ing.

There is no step by step guide to tuning this. Following basic DX, crystal set rules do not necessary apply IMHO.

All the theory is in here: [http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1631-peter-whatever-happened-eric-p-dollard.html#post15858]

I do not want to talk about theory of operation here. Just observations and diffferences between this design and a normal crystal set design. For an unbiased Theory pull out the T-rex posts from the above thread and read. Not that there is not other great information in that thread but it can make you mind wander. Read the other posts after you determine if you understand Eric or not. I found page 26 a great place to start. Lots of good T-rex posts before that but they are a bit advanced and its hard to apply to those lessons before you understand the basics and that is what this is about.

Learning the basics.

:v-peace:

jake
04-21-2012, 10:17 PM
@ jake

Thanks for the info. I find lighting an LED with just a few feet of wire for an antenna to be impressive. What kink of results did EPD get with his?

What powers the wireless AV plug?

madhatter
04-21-2012, 11:46 PM
For those who may not have RF test gear, I found a simple RF circuit you can make to read RF voltages on a DMM.

N5ESE's Classic RF Probe (http://n5ese.com/rfprobe1.htm)

I made one this afternoon took about 30mins, used an aluminum cigar tube for the RF shielded body.

xee2
04-22-2012, 01:33 AM
What powers the wireless AV plug?

The AV plug appears to not have a return, but it actually does. The return path is through capacitive coupling. There is always some amount of capacitive coupling between any two conductors. Touching one side of the LED will increase the capacitance since that allows the high frequency current to flow over the surface of your body and increases the area of the capacitive plate. Normally this requires higher voltage than you have in order to work wirelessly so I am surprised that you can get it to work without a return wire with the voltage you have. The circuit is just a diode rectifier feeding an LED. The diodes prevent the reverse voltage across the LED from getting high enough to burn it out (LEDs can only have about 10 volts of reverse voltage before they will be destroyed).

see >>> one wire circuit - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8_hbJn9cWw)

jake
04-22-2012, 01:43 AM
For those who may not have RF test gear, I found a simple RF circuit you can make to read RF voltages on a DMM.

N5ESE's Classic RF Probe (http://n5ese.com/rfprobe1.htm)

I made one this afternoon took about 30mins, used an aluminum cigar tube for the RF shielded body.

That is perfect! But wait lets make it better.

I don't care about accuracy. I want maximum sensitivity and stability so I can tell where the peak is. Becides ditching the the resistor should I consider another sized cap? 0.01uF seems a little large for use on a crystal set:thinking:



@ all,

When using 0.5v PP on the function generator(lowest setting) across 1 turn of the primary I can use an AV plug to trace the secondary and "see" the high and low points along the entire secondary. Middle 5 turns have close to nothing. All the umph is at the top and bottom of the secondary.

Now to get that umph into the extra coil through the cap without loosing anything.

xee2
04-22-2012, 02:37 AM
@ jake

I calculated the field strength voltage 5 miles away from a 1,000 watt transmitter to be 0.03 volts per meter. This is a rough calculation but gives approximate value to be expected. You are getting much more out. I am impressed with your design. I worked several years as an antenna engineer developing very advanced antenna designs, so it takes a bit to impress me.

For a 10,000 watt transmitter this increases to about 0.10 volts per meter.

After I did the calculations the hard way, I found an online calculator that gives about the same answers:

Volt per meter and power density calculator (http://www.qsl.net/pa2ohh/jsvpm.htm)


EDIT: A tuned antenna will suck up the RF energy much like an electronic vacuum cleaner, so I would expect your antenna to produce more than the ambient volts. It is actually possible to measure the lack of signal behind a tuned antenna which shows it has absorbed energy from an area much larger than itself.

jake
04-22-2012, 03:19 AM
xee2 you rock :thumbsup:

The funny thing is: The coil responds best when excited at ~2200kHz. So I may be getting signal from another station but I cant hear it because 1620 is so loud.

xee2
04-22-2012, 03:31 AM
I consider another sized cap? 0.01uF seems a little large for use on a crystal set:thinking:


What cap? There is no reason to go over 100 pf for coupling at 1 MHz. The smaller the coupling cap is the higher the resonator Q will be.

xee2
04-22-2012, 03:34 AM
xee2 you rock :thumbsup:

The funny thing is: The coil responds best when excited at ~2200kHz. So I may be getting signal from another station but I cant hear it because 1620 is so loud.

No. If you are hearing 1620 then that is where the power is coming from. You will hear the station delivering the most power.

Loadstone
04-22-2012, 04:09 AM
Hi Jake....nice work.
Thought i'd post my setup here for you.
I'm getting 25+ volts from my circuit and i can run a wall clock from it very well. :D
I made my own 2 gang vari cap from some bits of aluminium glued to a wooden dowel.
I'm using about 30 feet of data cable as antenna but anything works...even just an iron wire.... My antenna is about 12 to 15 feet in the air.
My coil is tuned to 774 khz but i also get 1550 khz as well.
The 774 station is about 20 kilometers away from me, and i think it is a 50,000 w transmitter....i think?
Here is a link showing my setup running a clock.
clock radio - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQT01-OA89k)

I wind the primary with taps, then i just wind the secondary straight over the primary.
I'd like to see someone else try this setup and see how it performs.
Cheers.
Scotty.

jake
04-22-2012, 04:59 AM
@ all: Does this make sense?? Is this normal antenna theory stuff?

I am using bare 14gauge wire. So I can tap it at any point, and I do. There is a standing/stationary wave along the entire coil when excited at ~2200kHz. Max voltage is on the soda can, and again max at the bottom of the secondary by the grounding at ~2200kHz. With an area in the center of tht gives no readings. In this case I am feeding it with a function generator.

When attached to my magic "fireplace gouund:sshh: " I get hightest signal close to the top of the secondary but not on the can and the voltage does not go up at the bottom.

This tells me I need more interwinding capacitance or a capacitor across or the split ring the secondary think :thinking:
I think it's time for me to learn YouTube. I'm a video posting virgin. But the standing wave visual is cool.

And finally, my detector is an AV plug with germanium diodes. Crystal ear phone is attached across the LED and I can hear the station and the light glows when I tap points. This is the on the unpowered setup. Better yet I can hear the station on the "AV LED-head piece" 1" away from the secondary without touching, and it gets louder the closer you get.

Which means I am radiating. Which is bad.



So is this normal stuff?

jake
04-22-2012, 05:37 AM
@ loadstone

NICE!

Wish I had seen that earlier. Tried earlier on to get a joule thief to work but failed. Then I got good light from the coil directly and dropped that idea. I'm borrowing a function generator so I'm spending my time working with that. I'll eventually get a thief to steal radiowaves.

Did you ever work with 1N34 germanium diodes? How do thay compare to the ones in the video?

Loadstone
04-22-2012, 06:58 AM
@ Jake....i have used 1N34's but in my clip they are a different type...i think 1n60.....
I started off getting low voltages and refined it until i can get up to 28 volts out @ 500 ua.....not much power but i can run various small devices or charge batteries now. :)
It's all fun....i also tinker with the capacity versus inductance ect....teaches you alot!
Scotty.

jake
04-22-2012, 07:11 PM
@loadstone,

Have you ever tried power recovery with an FM station??

jake
04-22-2012, 08:40 PM
@ jake

I calculated the field strength voltage 5 miles away from a 1,000 watt transmitter to be 0.03 volts per meter. This is a rough calculation but gives approximate value to be expected. You are getting much more out. I am impressed with your design. I worked several years as an antenna engineer developing very advanced antenna designs, so it takes a bit to impress me.

For a 10,000 watt transmitter this increases to about 0.10 volts per meter.

After I did the calculations the hard way, I found an online calculator that gives about the same answers:

Volt per meter and power density calculator (http://www.qsl.net/pa2ohh/jsvpm.htm)


EDIT: A tuned antenna will suck up the RF energy much like an electronic vacuum cleaner, so I would expect your antenna to produce more than the ambient volts. It is actually possible to measure the lack of signal behind a tuned antenna which shows it has absorbed energy from an area much larger than itself.

Just noticed this edit:

Right now it does nothing to a radio when I plug hook up the secondary but I can still light the led.

One previous setup it was making the radio louder when I hooked it up. I think it was when I grounded it to the house ground but the led would just fliker every once in a while.

This is where the extra coil and ring capacitor come in to play. I dont want to change the wire length, coil hight or coil diameter. So all I have is capacitance and I have tried: a 3 turn 505pf variable air cap. A 112pf HV air cap. and a couple of other crystal radio/pocket radio caps and they just dont do much of anything across the secondary.

xee2
04-22-2012, 11:54 PM
One previous setup it was making the radio louder when I hooked it up.


Your house radio resonator and the crystal set resonator are mutually coupled. See ... AM Radio with wireless Loop Antenna - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrQH1ww6q7s&feature=plcp&context=C4daade1VDvjVQa1PpcFPiW9aL6zdMMLzXIXNzyBxZ uMBzIcIhgp0%3D)

madhatter
04-23-2012, 01:27 AM
The crystal radio project is to recover Teluric currents, not hertzian waves. This is why ground is THE most important part of the project.

recovering hertzian waves and magnifying them to power LED's etc.. is nothing new, novel but not what Eric was going for.

Diodes, 1N34A have a very low FW voltage, and a high 50V breakdown. 1N60 is nearly twice as high in forward voltage with a lower 40v breakdown, although the 1N60 is supposedly mfg to higher tolerances.

a ground impedance of 1ohm or less is going to be the biggest and for most an impossible requirement.

jake
04-23-2012, 01:47 AM
The crystal radio project is to recover Teluric currents, not hertzian waves. This is why ground is THE most important part of the project.

recovering hertzian waves and magnifying them to power LED's etc.. is nothing new, novel but not what Eric was going for.

Diodes, 1N34A have a very low FW voltage, and a high 50V breakdown. 1N60 is nearly twice as high in forward voltage with a lower 40v breakdown, although the 1N60 is supposedly mfg to higher tolerances.

a ground impedance of 1ohm or less is going to be the biggest and for most an impossible requirement.

Yes, you are correct. However one can use the Hertzian waves to tune their secondary, just like we are doing with the function generator. LEDs make pretty good HF indicator lights.

So whats you take on my standing wave question? last page

madhatter
04-23-2012, 02:06 AM
Yes, you are correct. However one can use the Hertzian waves to tune their secondary, just like we are doing with the function generator. LEDs make pretty good HF indicator lights.

So whats you take on my standing wave question? last page

Not sure I understand what you're after, could you explain a bit more?

Also this is going to be frustrating, but all leads will impact the L&C of the circuit, I found that by using the coil itself it's a better compramise then adding in wire length. the leads and LED also effect the circuit too, it's a big balance game.

jake
04-23-2012, 02:53 AM
Not sure I understand what you're after, could you explain a bit more?[Quote]

As far as the Standing wave. Should there be one along the lenght of the wire?


[QUOTE=madhatter;189674]Also this is going to be frustrating, but all leads will impact the L&C of the circuit, I found that by using the coil itself it's a better compramise then adding in wire length. the leads and LED also effect the circuit too, it's a big balance game.

Yes, Yes, and Yes I noticed that.

A wise man once said "we were going to need a new set of tools to work with these new concepts" or something along those lines. Once I realized I could easily light an led I thought that it could make a handy dandy indicator. THEN..

I get my hands on a 10MHz function generator. I start testing and messing but lacking a fuctional ground I can only take my results as mere observations of a crystal radio and NOT a TRT. What did I learn....that leads are the enemy. Thats when I made the leap form FWBR to AV plug and that made all the difference. Thanks to all those who helped with that. No leads and 1 point of contact. That makes a nice little indicator. With that indicator I can touch the coil at any point. And it appears to make very little change to the resonant frequency. The change I do see is usually caused by me holding the AV plug. BUT I cant get the AV plut to light on a stick.:wall:

jake, jastermake @ yahoogroup

madhatter
04-23-2012, 04:11 AM
[QUOTE=madhatter;189674]Not sure I understand what you're after, could you explain a bit more?[Quote]

As far as the Standing wave. Should there be one along the lenght of the wire?

jake, jastermake @ yahoogroup

I'm going to be a bit lazy here and point you to this, Standing waves and resonance : TRANSMISSION LINES (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_14/6.html) it may help answer some questions, if you've got more after, let me know.

the length, are you referring to the physical wire length or the length of the coil? there is also the issue of electrical length. gets more involved with RF and transmission, esp here since C is no longer a fixed value.

xee2
04-23-2012, 05:57 AM
As far as the Standing wave. Should there be one along the lenght of the wire?


For parallel resonator or self resonant coil:
When the resonator is at resonance there will be a standing wave on the inductor wire with a peak voltage measured across the ends. Note that this is an RF wave not DC. Best way to measure this is with scope using very small capacitor as probe. There will be multiple peaks if the resonator is resonating at a harmonic of fundamental resonator frequency.

jake
04-23-2012, 06:15 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused:

So I went outside soldered into a ground wire and set to work. With 1 turn, 1/2" flat copper stock primary. Tried different arials, different hights, and so on and so on. Got it down to 1620(heard it on the radio 15' away) with a big aluminum salad bowl. , I went back to no terminal and put on my big fat 2 turn primary. Started testing with this when


A small white exlporer sticker on side said "Texas Communicat........." Could not read the whole thing. Pulled into my driveway waved nicely at me then drove off nice and slow....

There is a company called "Texas Communications" that runs communication services and it may have been one of their trucks. but still :confused: It did not feel right.

Did I break a rule?? FCC or other??

Function Generator signal level never went past 1/3. and was usually all the way down..

BK Precision 4017A, 10mHz, 10v(max) p-p into 50ohm, minium .25v p-p across my scope.

:whistle:

xee2
04-23-2012, 06:52 PM
:confused: :confused: :confused:

So I went outside soldered into a ground wire and set to work. With 1 turn, 1/2" flat copper stock primary. Tried different arials, different hights, and so on and so on. Got it down to 1620(heard it on the radio 15' away) with a big aluminum salad bowl. , I went back to no terminal and put on my big fat 2 turn primary. Started testing with this when


A small white exlporer sticker on side said "Texas Communicat........." Could not read the whole thing. Pulled into my driveway waved nicely at me then drove off nice and slow....

There is a company called "Texas Communications" that runs communication services and it may have been one of their trucks. but still :confused: It did not feel right.

Did I break a rule?? FCC or other??

Function Generator signal level never went past 1/3. and was usually all the way down..

BK Precision 4017A, 10mHz, 10v(max) p-p into 50ohm, minium .25v p-p across my scope.

:whistle:

You broke no rules. He probably pulled into your driveway by mistake and then realized he was not where he should be.

jake
04-23-2012, 07:12 PM
Just remembered there is also a strong resonant point at 7MHz that I played with. Does this change anything?

xee2
04-23-2012, 08:32 PM
Just remembered there is also a strong resonant point at 7MHz that I played with. Does this change anything?

I doubt that your signal generator will put out enough power to interfere with anything unless you have neighbors within a 100 feet and then they would need to have a radio tuned to the frequency you are using (unlikely).

madhatter
04-23-2012, 09:25 PM
The FCC has no sense of humor, be careful.
wiki link on FCC broadcasting regs
Title 47 CFR Part 15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_47_CFR_Part_15)

20dBm = 100mW is the maximum allowed, also there is limits on antennae length. ground and above ground total to 3meters.

jake
04-24-2012, 05:58 AM
So before I was freaked out earlier. I was tring to figure out the standing issue I have.
@ mad, I like it when you lazy.

So what I really wanted to ask was why is there only a partial wave along the coil at resonance? With a 1 turn primary I get 1/4 of a wave along the entire coil. Meaning the the can has highest "potential and the potential along the coductor goes down to nothing as you approach ground.

However a few days ago I had 1/2 wave at resonance when I was using my primary instead of a 1 turn copper strip. Meaning highest potential on terminal, the 5 turns on in the middle of the coil had nothing and voltage went back up(actually -) as you approached the ground.

I had just got my primary back on when. I pooped my pants.. Spent the rest of the day at FCC.. and wiki.

What did I learn there: 2mHz-3.5mHz is wierd and is allocated to maritime, ship to shore, and other , but the coast guard uses it as well and I can't forget 2.1735MHz mobile distress and calling frequency.. I was all over that one today. With the right termination/salad bowl. I learned I can keep it under 2MHz and still play as long as I keep it turned down all the way..

I used a FWBR made from SF35s and SF37s diodes. Across the DC of the FWBR I used a 100pF cap. Powering the function generator at 1.8MHz the max I could get was 90mA straight across a DMM out from the rectifier. How do I go from that to "milliwatts of DC input power to the final RF stage"?


time to do the pots.

xee2
04-24-2012, 03:22 PM
and voltage went back up(actually -) as you approached the ground.


You must have had a bad ground connection. Ground should never have a voltage on it (it is the reference for all other voltages).

xee2
04-24-2012, 03:30 PM
I used a FWBR made from SF35s and SF37s diodes. Across the DC of the FWBR I used a 100pF cap. Powering the function generator at 1.8MHz the max I could get was 90mA straight across a DMM out from the rectifier. How do I go from that to "milliwatts of DC input power to the final RF stage"?


You need to measure imput impedance of antenna to determine how much power is going into it. But it will look like like a small capacitor. To get power into the antenna you need to make a matching network to convert generator impedance to complex conjugate of antenna impedance. As is, 90% of power appllied to your wire antenna is being reflected back to generator (less than 10% is going into antenna). So the amount of power your antenna is readiating is very small.

jake
04-24-2012, 04:11 PM
You must have had a bad ground connection. Ground should never have a voltage on it (it is the reference for all other voltages).

Awesome.. Thats why I went outside and soldered directly to decent "ground". Did not stay out long enough to prove it to myself.

jake
04-24-2012, 04:24 PM
You need to measure imput impedance of antenna to determine how much power is going into it. But it will look like like a small capacitor. To get power into the antenna you need to make a matching network to convert generator impedance to complex conjugate of antenna impedance. As is, 90% of power appllied to your wire antenna is being reflected back to generator (less than 10% is going into antenna). So the amount of power your antenna is readiating is very small.

I was hoping for more answers like this...

BUT what the #?*! did you just say..

I never wanted to transmit.. never planned on it.. still dont want to. I'm more of a receiver.

Is "very small" enough to make a radio 15' away scream like a banchee. By scream like a banchee I mean, completely drown out the local station that was coming in loud and clear? And boost the volume?

I have absolutely no reference of radiated RF and its capabilities. So I appreciate the replies.

jake:whistle:

xee2
04-24-2012, 04:42 PM
I was hoping for more answers like this...

BUT what the #?*! did you just say..

I never wanted to transmit.. never planned on it.. still dont want to. I'm more of a receiver.

Is "very small" enough to make a radio 15' away scream like a banchee. By scream like a banchee I mean, completely drown out the local station that was coming in loud and clear? And boost the volume?

I have absolutely no reference of radiated RF and its capabilities. So I appreciate the replies.

jake:whistle:

At 15 feet you are coupling to the receiver directly not picking up the RF radiation. A wavelength at 1 MHz is 1000 feet so 15 feet is only a few percent of a wavelength away. This is called near field coupling and is very strong.

jake
04-26-2012, 12:17 AM
You need to measure imput impedance of antenna to determine how much power is going into it. But it will look like like a small capacitor. To get power into the antenna you need to make a matching network to convert generator impedance to complex conjugate of antenna impedance. As is, 90% of power appllied to your wire antenna is being reflected back to generator (less than 10% is going into antenna). So the amount of power your antenna is readiating is very small.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/web000x/TMTResonanceTestProcedure.jpg

In the bottom diagram 90% is being reflected to the generator???

xee2
04-26-2012, 01:01 AM
In the bottom diagram 90% is being reflected to the generator???

It is hard to tell from diagram. I was assuming you were just connecting a wire to signal generator. In this case there is a whole circuit attached. But I suspect that most of the energy is being reflected back into the generator. Getting an electrically small antenna (length only a small fraction of a wavelength) to radiate all of the power being fed to it requires much work. When the length gets to be 1/4 wavelength the antenna impedance will be close enough to 50 ohms to radiate most of power. But less than than 1/4 wavelength will reflect most of the power fed to it from a 50 ohm source.

If you are tuning with the set up in diagram, be aware that the frequency is going to be effected by the loop attached to the generator. I think it would be better to use a short wire well away from the receiver resonator to transmit with when tuning the resonator.

dR-Green
04-26-2012, 01:26 AM
I don't think I've seen an extra coil on your setup, or have I?

No you haven't, not yet. I suppose I could make an extra coil first and test it on the spiral :thinking:

xee2
04-26-2012, 01:34 AM
I think it would be better to use a short wire well away from the receiver resonator to transmit with when tuning the resonator.

Being close to the resonator will also effect tuning. I recommend sweeping the frequency to see where it resonates, adjust, move away, sweep frequency to see where it is resonant, .... etc.

jake
04-26-2012, 01:47 AM
It is hard to tell from diagram. I was assuming you were just connecting a wire to signal generator. In this case there is a whole circuit attached. But I suspect that most of the energy is being reflected back into the generator. Getting an electrically small antenna (length only a small fraction of a wavelength) to radiate all of the power being fed to it requires much work. When the length gets to be 1/4 wavelength the antenna impedance will be close enough to 50 ohms to radiate most of power. But less than than 1/4 wavelength will reflect most of the power fed to it from a 50 ohm source.

If you are tuning with the set up in diagram, be aware that the frequency is going to be effected by the loop attached to the generator. I think it would be better to use a short wire well away from the receiver resonator to transmit with when tuning the resonator.

-1 turn primary flat 1/2". in series across the Function generator
-20 turn secondary 29.5-30.0 meters. about 2" above the secondary, same diameter
-Coil was most active at 2000kcycles. It lit an av plug the brightest at the greatest distance.

Considering these three observations, and considering the 20 turn secondary as the antenna;

Can I conclude the coil is acting like a (1/4 lamda) 150m antenna? (i.e. I have electrically lengthened the 30m wire I used in the secondary)

xee2
04-26-2012, 02:45 AM
Can I conclude the coil is acting like a (1/4 lamda) 150m antenna? (i.e. I have electrically lengthened the 30m wire I used in the secondary)

It is possible but there is no way for me to tell if that is happening. But the resonant frequency is going to change when you disconnect the generator if the generator is tightly coupled to the resonator. I think your objective is to get the receiver tuned to the correct frequency, not to make a transmitter tuned to the correct frequency.

jake
04-26-2012, 04:00 AM
I think your objective is to get the receiver tuned to the correct frequency, not to make a transmitter tuned to the correct frequency.

You are correct:thumbsup:

and on the way there I'm disecting each component.

I do not know what frequency the secondary should resonate as it is shown in the diagram. What part the secondary plays in the TRT I do not know. I think Eric may be the only one. But this is not a TRT, just yet.

So I am looking at the coil from all angles. How it was a radiator in this case study, not exactly what I was expecting but Ill take what I can get.

When excited @ 2000kcycles it radiates quite readily but at 1620 not so well:( . Same goes for receiving I thought...:confused:

'CAN' or Beer can/ dr pepper can, is the standard end termination for the Crystal Radio Initative. Dollard recommended it and I think those building are also using it in testing.

I need a lot of 'CAN' to bring it down to 1620. But how much 'CAN' will be provided by the extra coil, I do not know. The two split rings in the final design of the TRT will allow for some adjustment. Of 'what' is still to be determined. So much I do not know.


As far as the 150m question I was just trying to figure out why it ended up that way since I was only using 30m of wire. But I think I got that part figured out.

:thumbsup:

jake
04-26-2012, 04:48 AM
The final product.

by EPD
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/johnpolakow/Tesla%20Resonant%20Transformer/TeslaResonantTransformer0011.jpg

I do not know whos site this picture is hosted on but, I hope you don't mind that I used it here. If you do please let me know.

xee2
04-26-2012, 05:31 AM
@ jake

Wow, that looks complicated.

To lower your frequency you need to add parallel capacitance to the coil. Probably about 5 to 10 pF. You can make an adjustable capacitor with two sheets of copper overlapped with insulator in between and held together with a clothes pin.

jake
04-26-2012, 06:07 PM
I've seen videos of people lighting av plugs wirelessly from an SEC. What kind of voltages(primary and secondary)/frequencies are needed to get this effect?

xee2
04-26-2012, 10:03 PM
I have several videos posted on youtube at xee2vids. 1.5 volts will light fluorescent tube a foot away wirelessly.
Slayer exciter circuit - 1 AA battery - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embNCvPUvO0)

jake
04-26-2012, 11:51 PM
xee2,
What kind of voltages were your getting on the secondary coil?

xee2
04-27-2012, 12:24 AM
xee2,
What kind of voltages were your getting on the secondary coil?

Unknown. but I think over 20,000 volts.

jake
04-28-2012, 08:13 PM
I played around with HV a lot last year. 50uF spark discharges of up to 5000V.:suprise: Neon sign transformers and spark gaps are fun. I could light neons 15' away when stuck into the ground. The whole plastic as conductor also worked with NSTs.


I also did 3 Henry discharges/oscillations. Only 24v but scary with the amps I knew were there. I melted 4 neons in parallel this way. It only took 12 volts to melt 1 neon.

Any following Tesla's advice I went with smaller and smaller caps and faster and faster frequencies. That is when Eric came out with the crystal initiative and I thought that would be a good way to learn the in and outs of HF.

As I proceed I am trying to figure out what is HF related and what is HV related. I am so used to working with and reading about HF/HV at the same time I forgot that they are each their own entity.

I am starting to like this HF stuff. :grindaisy:

jake
04-29-2012, 04:03 AM
@madhatter,

What causes the two small peaks on each side of the large resonant point? I don't have a scope but they "show" up as audio on the piezo. It lets me know I'm getting close.

madhatter
04-29-2012, 05:09 AM
it may have to do with the phase shift, before resonance the current leads the voltage at resonance it is in phase and after the current lags the emf. The shift may be what you're picking up.

xee2
04-29-2012, 03:10 PM
@madhatter,

What causes the two small peaks on each side of the large resonant point? I don't have a scope but they "show" up as audio on the piezo. It lets me know I'm getting close.

I am not sure what your setup is so this is hard to answer. But it is probably the modulation on the carrier. This shows up as sidebands in the frequency domain. You can sometimes even see this from signal generators due to 60 Hz leakage.

David G Dawson
04-30-2012, 02:09 AM
Hello All,
Here to introduce myself and have an Extra Coil discovery that you all need to know about which I will post shortly.
Have been over at 'n6kph' and working with, David, Jake, Scott and Gary Peterson of 'TFCBooks' and all have been most helpful.
This introduction is a copy of one I made at n6kph in response to a Post:

Gary,
These tests of Erics are designed to gain some distance tuning knowledge with the Extra Coil and with the Secondary test, to tune in the local AM Station via the Hertzian component and not the Telluric.

I have four Oscilloscopes, 1 x 100 Mhz (HP 1741A), 2 x Tektronix Valve and a Telequipment solid state which is UK Tektronix.
Have a fully set up Lab that has basically taken me 10 years to acquire or build the required tools.
Only thing I don't have is a Spectrum Analyser and working on that now.
Am not a Ham but fully qualified to be so and have a considerable collection of Vacuum Tubes that go along with my research, Moray/Ion Valve/Smith/Kapanadze type research.
I am 70 years of age and been at this full time since retiring 10 years ago.
I am ex Radio Station, RANavy, NASA Tidbinbilla Space Track and finally electronic designing for the Auto Industry.
Repairing a Yaesu FT-901 Transceiver due to its AM driver capabilities ready for the next step but these initial problems need to be overcome with respect to design.
Yes, I have seen your repeated information but can only do one step at a time and will get to do your Oscilloscope tests at the right time which is not right now as the working data is suspect as is my Extra Coil.
I am also into Aetheric Weather Engineering after Wilhelm Reich and TJ Constable etc which is another story again but helps with the Aetheric ubderstanding associated with all of this.
I have 13 devices here that can make it rain and all of which are not recognised by 'science' just as is Tesla's TMT and why I am also following this path.
Letting you know where I come from.

Smokey

David G Dawson
04-30-2012, 02:18 AM
This Post is repeated at 'n6kph'.

A Discovery - Extra Coil:
I find repeatedly that simple Maths is a significant part of discovery and has allowed me to build many devices that others have failed at or not even bothered with, all because it appeared too hard.
I now have two Extra Coils, one considered wrong Math and the newer considered the correct Math.
Question to me was that the old worked and the new doesn't but why?
You may remember me saying that my first attempt at this coil worked as I was picking up my local 2 Kw station with the Headphone capacitor antenna some 8 to 10" away from the Extra Coil and it was proven to be a Telluric signal and not Hertzian.

The Math:
Old Coil data - works:
CalcF = 1.557 Mhz (1.557 x pi/2 = 2.4457) MULTIPLY
53 turns of 14 awg (same as Secondary wire size) with a diameter of 195.2mm
L = 30.829 meters (9.7244 Mhz)
Actual 1/4 wave Fres = 2.4655 Mhz AFTER F 1.557 Mhz
Error long by 198 Hz which means I need more turns over the 53 I did have but probably only one required and this should increase signal strength as well.

New Coil data - doesn't work:
Calc F = 1.557 Mhz (1.557 / pi/2 = 991.2 Khz) DIVIDE
125 turns of 21 awg with diameter of 195.2mm.
L = 75.61 meters (3.965 Mhz)
Actual 1/4 wave Fres = 991.4 Khz BEFORE F 1.557 Mhz

What this is saying is that you need to find the 1/4 Wave point from your number of turns and that needs to match your signal frequency MULTIPLIED by pi/2. (1.557 x (pi/2) = 2.4457 Mhz)

When I had completed the first coil I was happy with the Math and why I went ahead with the build.
It is only now, on analysis that the Math can be presented on paper and you can see what is happening here.
What I first built was, I feel, correct as the pi component is at the correct point AFTER the centre point going on to the full 1/4 wave and not before the 1/8th wave point.
This AFTER point is where Tesla's 'standing wave' is permitted/allowed to occur.
The second coil has its pi point BEFORE the 1/8 wave point and cannot resonate correctly and will be difficult to tune as is noted in the documentation many times.
What is of significance here is exactly where the pi point is (where your reference signal is) and is not a harmonic or octave or any of the regular resonance points but WITHIN THE FULL QUARTER WAVE at the 1/4 wave/pi/2 point and this is where your reference signal is located. (2.4457/(pi/2) = 1.557 Mhz)

If your Extra Coil does not work or is difficult to tune then the above will explain why.
If you then build a new Coil to the guide above, you will meet with guaranteed success as proven above.

I now have a difficult challenge to figure out if Tesla was on the wrong side with his pi point and working on that now.
I will be building a new coil on a new more open frame but adding one more turn to home in on the exact point as I still have the original wire ready to rewind.
Will advise as I proceed.
Hope you can understand what is documented above.
You MUST know your simple Maths if you are ever going to succeed in this business as I relate from empirical experience.
Good luck with your builds.
Will introduce myself over at Energetic and present this document as well.
Thanks.

Smokey

PS:
If anybody can see an obvious piece of data that I have overlooked, please respond.
David,
Would like to hear Eric's comments on this 'discovery'
Thanks.

jake
04-30-2012, 03:04 AM
:welcome:

Good to see you here.

Web000x
04-30-2012, 03:23 AM
This Post is repeated at 'n6kph'.

A Discovery - Extra Coil:
I find repeatedly that simple Maths is a significant part of discovery and has allowed me to build many devices that others have failed at or not even bothered with, all because it appeared too hard.
I now have two Extra Coils, one considered wrong Math and the newer considered the correct Math.
Question to me was that the old worked and the new doesn't but why?
You may remember me saying that my first attempt at this coil worked as I was picking up my local 2 Kw station with the Headphone capacitor antenna some 8 to 10" away from the Extra Coil and it was proven to be a Telluric signal and not Hertzian.

The Math:
Old Coil data - works:
CalcF = 1.557 Mhz (1.557 x pi/2 = 2.4457) MULTIPLY
53 turns of 14 awg (same as Secondary wire size) with a diameter of 195.2mm
L = 30.829 meters (9.7244 Mhz)
Actual 1/4 wave Fres = 2.4655 Mhz AFTER F 1.557 Mhz
Error long by 198 Hz which means I need more turns over the 53 I did have but probably only one required and this should increase signal strength as well.

New Coil data - doesn't work:
Calc F = 1.557 Mhz (1.557 / pi/2 = 991.2 Khz) DIVIDE
125 turns of 21 awg with diameter of 195.2mm.
L = 75.61 meters (3.965 Mhz)
Actual 1/4 wave Fres = 991.4 Khz BEFORE F 1.557 Mhz

What this is saying is that you need to find the 1/4 Wave point from your number of turns and that needs to match your signal frequency MULTIPLIED by pi/2. (1.557 x (pi/2) = 2.4457 Mhz)

When I had completed the first coil I was happy with the Math and why I went ahead with the build.
It is only now, on analysis that the Math can be presented on paper and you can see what is happening here.
What I first built was, I feel, correct as the pi component is at the correct point AFTER the centre point going on to the full 1/4 wave and not before the 1/8th wave point.
This AFTER point is where Tesla's 'standing wave' is permitted/allowed to occur.
The second coil has its pi point BEFORE the 1/8 wave point and cannot resonate correctly and will be difficult to tune as is noted in the documentation many times.
What is of significance here is exactly where the pi point is (where your reference signal is) and is not a harmonic or octave or any of the regular resonance points but WITHIN THE FULL QUARTER WAVE at the 1/4 wave/pi/2 point and this is where your reference signal is located. (2.4457/(pi/2) = 1.557 Mhz)

If your Extra Coil does not work or is difficult to tune then the above will explain why.
If you then build a new Coil to the guide above, you will meet with guaranteed success as proven above.

I now have a difficult challenge to figure out if Tesla was on the wrong side with his pi point and working on that now.
I will be building a new coil on a new more open frame but adding one more turn to home in on the exact point as I still have the original wire ready to rewind.
Will advise as I proceed.
Hope you can understand what is documented above.
You MUST know your simple Maths if you are ever going to succeed in this business as I relate from empirical experience.
Good luck with your builds.
Will introduce myself over at Energetic and present this document as well.
Thanks.

Smokey

PS:
If anybody can see an obvious piece of data that I have overlooked, please respond.
David,
Would like to hear Eric's comments on this 'discovery'
Thanks.

Smokey,

I like the Energetic Forum 'style' so I will ask questions here. Also, Eric is more apt to see info posted on the forum and not the Yahoo group since he doesn't know how to navigate it. Discussion here in the open is going to preserve these conversations on one thread for Eric to see since there is no way I can remember all details that he might like to know. How did you arrive at your calculations? I only briefly looked but couldn't find how you got a calculated frequency of 1.557 MHz.

That being said, if you can present your findings in a manner that builds them up from Eric's initial design equations to where your experiments have taken you, I will refer Eric to this thread. He told me the other day that he wanted to check the forum again to see if there has been any activity so he is looking for somebody with a computer to use.

Geometric_Algebra has been the only one to be able to functionally correspond with Eric thru the postal service. Eric received a letter from Geometric_Algebra that included coil dimensions, measurements, errors, etc. and sent back a response that is on the Eric P. Dollard thread. If you send Eric something that is a worthwhile question, he will respond. However, since you seem to be on the other side of the world, you should document your results here on this forum either in this thread or Eric's thread so that you are using a medium that Eric is used to.

I would be more than willing to use my own printer and paper to get questions to Eric for everybody that doesn't have convenient access the the United States Postal Service. However, I have no money and my printer is out of ink. If somebody wants to help with these problems, I will print and mail all day long. Otherwise, hope that Eric can have access to the forum long enough to fully digest your post or you'll have to mail him from your location.

Sorry about the inconveniences,

Dave

David G Dawson
04-30-2012, 03:50 AM
Confirmation:
Here is the Tesla data based on the Colorado Spring's Notes:
Extra Diameter = 2.52m
One Turn 2pir = 7.9168m
Turns = 100 Total Length = 791.7m
Full Wave = 378.67 Khz
1/4 Wave = 94.6675 Khz
Operating Signal Point 94.6675 MULTIPLY pi/2 = 148.703 Khz
Where Tesla should have been working and NOT here:
94.6675 DIVIDE pi/2 = 60.267 Khz where he was working and supported in the CS Notes 'about 59 Khz'.

Think this is sufficient evidence to point to the base reason why the Extra Coil is so hard to tune and is very much not so at the AFTER and not BEFORE 1/8 Wave point.
It may have been difficult for Tesla to get to the higher frequency where he should and probably knew he should be working at and this is his compromise.
He may have also considered that what he was attempting to achieve would work from both sides and chose the DIVIDE path when he should have gone the MULTIPLY way.
Hope this makes it clear as to what is required with your Extra Coil to make it work.

Am satisfied now that this is the case and will rebuild my Extra Coil to the new dimensions which will be:
F = 1.557 Mhz MULTIPLY (pi/2) = 2.4457 Mhz = 1/4 Wave.
Full wave = 9.78292 Mhz = 30.644 meters
Diameter = 195.2mm (r = 97.6 mm)
1 Turn = 2pir = 613.23 mm
Number of Turns = 30644/613.23 = 49.97
Wire size, same as Secondary and 14 awg in my case.
Number of turns very close to my original figure of 53 but would suggest that you add about 5 extra turns and then trim or better to probe back on turns that you have cleared of insulation when you can get a Sig Gen set on the exact frequency of your station and then tune for maximum gain in the Headphones or on the Intensity meter.
Hope this explanation is now clear to everyone.

Will be honest and say that using 21 awg for the new Extra did not appear correct as I could not see being able to pump this frail device with any watts to achieve a goal.
This IS different!
Will now go build my new Extra Coil and make this fact for good as it has already been proven by empirical means.
I have Tesla nodding approval.
Thanks.

Smokey

David G Dawson
04-30-2012, 05:35 AM
David,
The 1.557 Mhz is my local Radio Station that I am tuning into.
If you follow my last Post it is fully exampled there and shows what I feel Tesla would like to have done but couldn't due to technical shortages of his equipment or he may have just gone the wrong way.

Wish I could help more from afar but not easy - I have 5 Computers here, all the old ones I have fixed their problems and sit here unused or just kept as data monitors.

Think this IS a significant discovery and just needs builders to first understand what I have proposed and then to build following my examples.
The important issue here is where your AM Radio Station sits in the 1/4 Wave and needs to be at the 0.637 point of the 1/4 Wave of your Coil.
From my previous example - 1.557/2.4457 = 0.637 or on the HIGH side of your local AM Radio Station signal
I will now go away and work on what that point is, as it must have some other significance besides pi.
The Tesla way was 1.557/991.2 = 1.5708 or better as a comparison 991.2/1.557 = 0.637 the same but on the LOWER side of your Radio signal.

I knew 0.637 was something to do with AC and here is the connection:

Measuring the Sine Wave (http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/ac_theory/ac_waves02.php)

The Average value of a Sine Wave.
Note now the association here with pi and the average value of a Sine or AC wave and this in itself speaks volumes.
This is where the 'magnification' takes place.
Now that we have a 'something' to work with we may be able to make some considerable steps in evolving this Free Enegy that we seek in all of our Coil designs.
Hope you have all been able to follow this unravelling so to speak as it just simply now makes all that much sense.
I have a Coil to build.

As a side note, please note that I have been at Energetic since March 2008 sitting on the sidelines and waitimg for my moment.
Hopefully it has arrived.

Smokey

madhatter
04-30-2012, 07:47 AM
some fun with math.
300,000,000 x Pi/2 = 300,000,000 x 1.5707 = 471,238,898.04
300,000,000/471,238,898.04 = 0.636619772
1/(Pi/2) = 0.636619772
2/Pi = 0.636619772
0.636619772 x (2 x Pi) "revolution" = 4 "radians"

jake
04-30-2012, 01:56 PM
some fun with math.
300,000,000 x Pi/2 = 300,000,000 x 1.5707 = 471,238,898.04
300,000,000/471,238,898.04 = 0.636619772
1/(Pi/2) = 0.636619772
2/Pi = 0.636619772
0.636619772 x (2 x Pi) "revolution" = 4 "radians"

Not fun.

So it comes down to "A/(A*Pi/2)=0.63661977"

xee2
04-30-2012, 02:11 PM
@ David G Dawson

Have you built an antenna using the same EPD design that Jake is using? If so how well does it work?

madhatter
04-30-2012, 02:56 PM
Not fun.

So it comes down to "A/(A*Pi/2)=0.63661977"

why not fun?:p

I think you mean, 'A/(A(Pi/2)=0.636619772':p

What I was getting at was that 0.6366.... is a function of Trig. As Smokey mentioned the A/C useage it's the rms multiplier value for 1/2 of the sine wave of a rectified wave for DC. and .707 is the full wave. a lot of these 'numbers' will factor back out and can seem 'magical', they do help in recognizing patterns and relations though. :thumbsup:

ewizard
04-30-2012, 09:46 PM
David,
The 1.557 Mhz is my local Radio Station that I am tuning into.
If you follow my last Post it is fully exampled there and shows what I feel Tesla would like to have done but couldn't due to technical shortages of his equipment or he may have just gone the wrong way.
<snip<
Smokey

That's why I thought you chose 1.557 Mhz. I can get lucky sometimes ;) Good to see you here Smokey! I've been on Bruce Perreault's list for something like 15 years and have seen you there as well as the OU forum. Always enjoy your posts. While I've built crystal radio's long ago I'm not really up to speed on this thread. Would you say your concept is anything like a scalar energy receiver?

David G Dawson
05-01-2012, 12:23 AM
@ David G Dawson

Have you built an antenna using the same EPD design that Jake is using? If so how well does it work?

Yes, and it doesn't work.
My old design as per my instructions worked first off without any problems and was picking up the signal from the 1N34 probe head into high impedance Headphones from 8 to 10 " away from the Extra and this was on a piece of metal used as a neutralising capacitor in an old RF transmitter without any specific direction of alignment.
It was obvious that the coil was radiating as well as magnifying the signal and was of a Telluric nature.
It is very clear in Tesla's Colorado Springs Notes that the length of the Secondary be equal to the Extra and this is NOT the case in Eric/Jake's example but is in mine.
I will put up some pics of both so you can see what I am talking about.

Just getting used to the procedures here at Energetic and always thought it was a neat means of display and communication.

Busy day here building the 3rd Coil but will come back later and put my formula into a step by step instruction so that it can be easily followed.
I am/was most familiar with spreadsheets but will leave that to the keen ones like Jake if he would like to build a new sheet for this working proposal at some later date after I have the 3rd coil working.

The final Colorado Spring's organisation only had 17 turns on the Secondary but I am using 20 as instructed but have a tap at 17 for testing purposes.
I, like Eric, spent many hours digesting the CSNotes and have come away with a different theory than Eric which works.
Eric leaves me for dead with the engineering data side but I have intuition on my side which has worked very well in the past.
Thinking about my working theory and I need to progress on that from an engineering viewpoint.

I have spelt it all out in the Posts but may be difficult to follow.
No, Phi is not involved here so far as no connection has been found.

On the new coil I will allow for fine tuning for a peak as the last one was just as built and could probably have been improved considerably and will fit this stage into the final Math.
Currently reading Eric's 'The Tesla Transformer' and can see some new holes there that need filling.
Later on this.

Smokey

xee2
05-01-2012, 02:38 AM
Just getting used to the procedures here at Energetic and always thought it was a neat means of display and communication.


Thanks for the reply. For your information, you can post images here but the storage space is very small so it will fill up quick. This is probably best to start with. But you will need to use ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting (http://imageshack.us) and paste the link into your post here when your space is filled up. They now require setting up an account. Setting image size to 640x480 or 800x600 will fit on screen best. There is a preview button that allows you to check how your post will look before actually submitting the post.

jake
05-01-2012, 03:10 AM
I got my hands on a piece of copper flashing 59" x 7". That is about as good as it gets for me. Right size, Right volume, or close enough to start. This will be my primary capacitor and connecting lengths. My thought is a simple two plate capacitor.

cut it like this.. and the thinner strips solder to the primary.

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5131/capcutout.png
By jastermake (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/jastermake) at 2012-04-30

BUT, before I cut...

What will the 2 turn primary and capacitor do to the resonant frequency of the secondary when I excite them both? I'll be using the same 1 turn strip and function generator I used to test the secondary?

What else should I consider when designing this capacitor? Please keep in mind this capacitor may play more than one role in this setup. I believe Eric called this capacitor the 'energy transformer' in one video.

So.... what will it do?

:peacesmiley:

madhatter
05-01-2012, 03:29 AM
Yes, and it doesn't work.
My old design as per my instructions worked first off without any problems and was picking up the signal from the 1N34 probe head into high impedance Headphones from 8 to 10 " away from the Extra and this was on a piece of metal used as a neutralising capacitor in an old RF transmitter without any specific direction of alignment.
It was obvious that the coil was radiating as well as magnifying the signal and was of a Telluric nature.
It is very clear in Tesla's Colorado Springs Notes that the length of the Secondary be equal to the Extra and this is NOT the case in Eric/Jake's example but is in mine.
I will put up some pics of both so you can see what I am talking about.

Just getting used to the procedures here at Energetic and always thought it was a neat means of display and communication.

Busy day here building the 3rd Coil but will come back later and put my formula into a step by step instruction so that it can be easily followed.
I am/was most familiar with spreadsheets but will leave that to the keen ones like Jake if he would like to build a new sheet for this working proposal at some later date after I have the 3rd coil working.

The final Colorado Spring's organisation only had 17 turns on the Secondary but I am using 20 as instructed but have a tap at 17 for testing purposes.
I, like Eric, spent many hours digesting the CSNotes and have come away with a different theory than Eric which works.
Eric leaves me for dead with the engineering data side but I have intuition on my side which has worked very well in the past.
Thinking about my working theory and I need to progress on that from an engineering viewpoint.

I have spelt it all out in the Posts but may be difficult to follow.
No, Phi is not involved here so far as no connection has been found.

On the new coil I will allow for fine tuning for a peak as the last one was just as built and could probably have been improved considerably and will fit this stage into the final Math.
Currently reading Eric's 'The Tesla Transformer' and can see some new holes there that need filling.
Later on this.

Smokey

Jan 2, 1900:

New Extra coil, 98 turns last modification.

25' 11" turn length = 98.99" Dia coil.

Still a 1:1 coil and there is notation of various 'tap' points on the primary and secondary to bring them into resonance.

madhatter
05-01-2012, 03:34 AM
a note also in the CSN of Tesla on Picture V. Extra coil connected to the secondary at 3/4 turns from ground connection. any idea on what 3/4 turns means? 3/4 of the turn or 75% of the total number of turns?

xee2
05-01-2012, 04:12 AM
What will the 2 turn primary and capacitor do to the resonant frequency of the secondary when I excite them both?


When close together the inductance of each coil will be increased by the other coil. The coil with the highest Q will primarily effect self resonant frequency. You should set SRF of secondary then gradually move primary closer re-tuning the SRF of each coil as you move them together.

This is how I measure self resonant frequency.

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1086/resonantfrequencytest.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/resonantfrequencytest.jpg/)

David G Dawson
05-01-2012, 08:54 AM
Goint to be away for a week so will make an itemised listing of the Math now.

Crystal Set Iniative Extra Coil:
In brackets are the figures for my situation.

1. Write down the frequency of the local AM Radio Station you are building the Crystal Set to receive from. (1.557 Mhz)
2. Multiply this number by pi/2 - this is the 1/4 Wave frequency (2.4457 Mhz)
3. Multiply this number by 4 (9.7829 Mhz) - this is the Full Wave frequency
4. Use your Frequency & Wavelength calculator to find the total length of wire required - this is what I use:

FREQUENCY & WAVELENGTH CALCULATOR (http://www.1728.org/freqwave.htm)

My length of wire = 30.645 meters or 30645mm
I use the same size awg (14) as for the Secondary which means the Copper masses are equal for all of Primary/Secondary and Extra Coils.
Length of Secondary = length of Extra.

5. Calculate Coil diameter with We = 0.4 Ws (195.2mm)
6. Calculate 1 turn using 2pi r = (613.24mm)
7. Divide this number into your total length (30645/613.24 = 49.97) = number of Turns
Suggest at this point that you wind a few extra for tuning purposes and then with Headphones on, tune for a maximum by probing back along the coil.
8. Use another tin can about 6 to 12" away from your Extra Coil to hang your 1N34 probe onto, doesn't need to be oriented in any way.
Those of you with excessive local transmitters may be blown off the map so be warned.
Mine is only a 2 Kw.

If at step 2 you were to DIVIDE that number you would arrive at the point where both Eric/Jake's Spreadsheet & Tesla would be working at.
This is in my view the wrong point as it brings you back into a 1/8th Wave and not just before the 1/4 Wave where the 0.637 'average AC Wave' becomes a significant factor.
This is the exact point where your local AM Radio Station sits at.

That's it.
Will work on the theory while I am away as I need to know the electrics behind all of this.
David,
Would be appreciated if you could get this Post to Eric as he may be able to see what is happening here.
This one he can simply copy down the instructions on paper from the phone.
First time I have ever seen a pi and average AC wave association.
Bottom line is that this arrangement works.
Goint to enjoy this holiday, first in about 5 years.
May call in while I am away.
Thanks.

Smokey

David G Dawson
05-01-2012, 10:27 AM
Have now drawn both the Multiply and Divide situations out on paper and you can see why the Eric/Tesla situation will make it difficult to tune.
In the MULTIPLY way which is my way, the 0.637 'average AC wave' point is on the UPCURVE of the frequency waveshape slope.

In the DIVIDE way that same point is on the DOWNCURVE slope.
So what we are seeing is an opportunity to tune in the first instance and only a brief and parting opportunity in the second instance.
That is sufficient evidence for me as mine required NO tuning where the other is said 'to be difficult to tune' and there is your answer as to why above.

OK have attached the drawing and hope it comes out viewable.
Math also shows the difference in length involved and how it is calculated.
Have always had this notion that all of this should not be difficult if we are to work at the correct operating points.
Thanks.

Smokey

jake
05-01-2012, 02:18 PM
5) PI over two; this factor appears twice in the Crystal Radio Initiative, C.R.I. The (20%) secondary coil "effective" propogation velocity is the velocity of light in the space in which it occupies. Here the Pi over two factoris an offsetof a unit value to shorten the winding to compensate for the heavy external loading that the secondary is loaded with, that is, the external inductance and capacitance from the earth and extra coil connections. The aspect ratio of 1 to 1 on the extra coil gives an "effective" propogation of 187% the velocity of light, hence the winding length must be made greater in order to get a quarter wave resonance at a higher speed. This is brought down to Pi over 2 percent, 157%, the velocity of light to compensate for the burden upon the extra coil, this mostly arising from the dielectric upon which this coil is wound. The secondary is Pi over two shorter, the extra coil is Pi over two longer. Golly Mr. Wizard that's Pi squared over four! Do not hunt for magic where it is not, this is all experimental. So go experiment.

This is all I know about the extra coil according to Eric.

madhatter
05-01-2012, 02:44 PM
Have now drawn both the Multiply and Divide situations out on paper and you can see why the Eric/Tesla situation will make it difficult to tune.
In the MULTIPLY way which is my way, the 0.637 'average AC wave' point is on the UPCURVE of the frequency waveshape slope.

In the DIVIDE way that same point is on the DOWNCURVE slope.
So what we are seeing is an opportunity to tune in the first instance and only a brief and parting opportunity in the second instance.
That is sufficient evidence for me as mine required NO tuning where the other is said 'to be difficult to tune' and there is your answer as to why above.

OK have attached the drawing and hope it comes out viewable.
Math also shows the difference in length involved and how it is calculated.
Have always had this notion that all of this should not be difficult if we are to work at the correct operating points.
Thanks.

Smokey

the 0.637 is not the AC average but the rms of 1/2 of the sine wave of a DC rectified current. AC average or rms of a full wave is 0.707 or sine45*, cos45*.

If the extra coil is designed around C and harmonics at velocities of C it will only continue to receive hertzian waves. The extra coil dimensions that Eric supplied should be useless in reception of hertz transmission in air.

jake
05-01-2012, 06:04 PM
@All struggling with 1/4 and 3/4

There is no inductance, capacitance, or wavelength. The wavlenght I gave of c/omega is not the standard wavelength. The standard way is c/f, then take 1/4th of that. That's the electromagnetic wavelength. The coils are not electromagnetic devices. Wire length is calculated by c/omega. A factor of 2pi is involved, so it's c/2*pi*f. There is no quarter. This gives a wirelength that is now 2 over pi shorter. There is no inductance and capacity to compensate or think about, the coil is both. They are not separated. Read the article in 7 parts just put in, paying special attention to the section labeled disruptive discharges. In the Colorado Springs all you want to look for is the final dimensions of the Magnifying Transmitter. Other than some circuit diagrams and final dimensions there's not much there of any use for coil design. Tesla was figuring stuff out as he was going along, he was struggling to figure out what was going on, he had nothing to work with. So read the Colorado Springs notes and share in his confusion.

I miss the old thread and all the goodies hidden in it.

David G Dawson
05-02-2012, 12:11 AM
I miss the old thread and all the goodies hidden in it.

MadHatter,
You are incorrect and please read the URL I posted as it very clearly states that the 0.637 point is AVERAGE VALUE (Vav) and 0.707 is RMS VALUE (Vrms).
I have been in this game a long time and know what is what.
Please check your facts before responding to anything I have presented.
I don't mind criticism but this is BS!

Jake,
All very well but look at this:
1.557 x 2pi = 9.7829 Mhz and then go look at my drawing as it is the very same 9.7829 Mhz.
1.557 x (pi/2) x4 = 9.7829 Mhz.
All the waveshape drawing that I presented represents is the point at which we are working at with our AM Radio Station signal with respect to a Hertzian 1/4 Wave system.

If you people are not going to listen to an oldtimer with a great deal of experience in OU research, then I will just disappear into the bush just like Eric has done.

One thing I should make note of is the direction of winding.
My Primary and Secondary are both CCW but for some unknown reason I stood on the wrong side whilst winding my first WORKING Extra and wound it CW - opposite.
The new Extra is also wound CCW but does not work or is difficult to get to work and my drawing shows why.

Eric states clearly to wind ALL Coils in the same direction but I may have accidentally stumbled across another discovery which I will prove out on my return.

Not going to sit here working out all the Math problems and for all of you to not understand and discredit.
If you are so blind that you cannot see what I am presenting then I will simply fade into the distance, again like Eric.

What you may not realise is that what is being presented before your very eyes is the entire secret to winding coils like Don Smith and Kapanadze use but nobody knows why they work and all their efforts were/are of an empirical nature.

What Kapanadze is currently using is a split Copper main core and this is his Primary as he is attempting to build as Eric has shown with all the Math that I am fully supporting as shown above and replicates a Tesla Magnifying Transformer (TMT).

What the Kapanadze device now needs is the Secondary and Extra Coils to be wound using the data that I have supplied and we should have our OU device.
The only outstanding question is the direction to wind the Extra Coil and I will clear that up when I return.

I am sorry to be working with people that cannot see the light when it has all been presented before you and very clearly at that with full reference to Eric's theory and in agreement.

Didn't you hear that my Extra Coil WORKED first time using Eric's Math but on the MULTIPLY side and NOT the DIVIDE side - what do you need to see the LIGHT!?

If I am beginning to sound like Eric then you may wake up and realise why, some day.

The information passed on from this 'discovery' even shows clearly that Tesla may have made a mistake with his operating fequency and he chose the wrong side of his 96 Khz base frequency and used the 60 Khz side instead of the 149 Khz side.
This may be why he had tuning problems as his work was of an empirical nature without a solid working Math base which we now have thanks to Eric and some accidental discoveries.
Tesla may also have had technical equipment problems at the higher frequency and why he chose the lower.

WAKE UP!

Smokey

ewizard
05-02-2012, 12:47 AM
Thanks Smokey! That's a biggy and I believe I get it now. Please don't take any offense at those who may not yet get it. There are lots of different levels people are at here. BTW you now have your own Folder on my hard drive ;)

:thumbsup:

ewizard
05-02-2012, 12:55 AM
Thanks also for the info on the split copper. Zilano mentioned that also recently and about 2 years ago I came across a video that demonstrated something quite impossible looking with a split copper tube device. I was trying to get more info at the time but some said it was nothing special. Looks like maybe it is after all. I really appreciate your showing the calcs and the coil info too. I should know the calcs being a Ham but I've been out of touch so long with that it's good to see it here again as it should be easy to extrapolate any needed calcs for other frequencies or sizes from what you have shown.

Farmhand
05-02-2012, 12:56 AM
In the Colorado Springs notes Tesla does mention winding half or part of the
secondary the opposite way or another coil or something, I'll try to find the
reference . ahah page 69 figure 2. A few of the top turns of the secondary

Cheers :v-peace:

jake
05-02-2012, 01:29 AM
MadHatter,
You are incorrect and please read the URL I posted as it very clearly states that the 0.637 point is AVERAGE VALUE (Vav) and 0.707 is RMS VALUE (Vrms).
I have been in this game a long time and know what is what.
Please check your facts before responding to anything I have presented.
I don't mind criticism but this is BS!

Jake,
All very well but look at this:
1.557 x 2pi = 9.7829 Mhz and then go look at my drawing as it is the very same 9.7829 Mhz.
1.557 x (pi/2) x4 = 9.7829 Mhz.
All the waveshape drawing that I presented represents is the point at which we are working at with our AM Radio Station signal with respect to a Hertzian 1/4 Wave system.

If you people are not going to listen to an oldtimer with a great deal of experience in OU research, then I will just disappear into the bush just like Eric has done.

One thing I should make note of is the direction of winding.
My Primary and Secondary are both CCW but for some unknown reason I stood on the wrong side whilst winding my first WORKING Extra and wound it CW - opposite.
The new Extra is also wound CCW but does not work or is difficult to get to work and my drawing shows why.

Eric states clearly to wind ALL Coils in the same direction but I may have accidentally stumbled across another discovery which I will prove out on my return.

Not going to sit here working out all the Math problems and for all of you to not understand and discredit.
If you are so blind that you cannot see what I am presenting then I will simply fade into the distance, again like Eric.

What you may not realise is that what is being presented before your very eyes is the entire secret to winding coils like Don Smith and Kapanadze use but nobody knows why they work and all their efforts were/are of an empirical nature.

What Kapanadze is currently using is a split Copper main core and this is his Primary as he is attempting to build as Eric has shown with all the Math that I am fully supporting as shown above and replicates a Tesla Magnifying Transformer (TMT).

What the Kapanadze device now needs is the Secondary and Extra Coils to be wound using the data that I have supplied and we should have our OU device.
The only outstanding question is the direction to wind the Extra Coil and I will clear that up when I return.

I am sorry to be working with people that cannot see the light when it has all been presented before you and very clearly at that with full reference to Eric's theory and in agreement.

Didn't you hear that my Extra Coil WORKED first time using Eric's Math but on the MULTIPLY side and NOT the DIVIDE side - what do you need to see the LIGHT!?

If I am beginning to sound like Eric then you may wake up and realise why, some day.

The information passed on from this 'discovery' even shows clearly that Tesla may have made a mistake with his operating fequency and he chose the wrong side of his 96 Khz base frequency and used the 60 Khz side instead of the 149 Khz side.
This may be why he had tuning problems as his work was of an empirical nature without a solid working Math base which we now have thanks to Eric and some accidental discoveries.
Tesla may also have had technical equipment problems at the higher frequency and why he chose the lower.

WAKE UP!

Smokey

Smokey,

Math does not mean much to me. Sure it's a tool that simplifies life but to me.. It's just numbers, there all relative.. I need to understand... Once I do that the math is a piece of cake...

I see the Dollard quote as being directly related you your situtation. You did it... Now don't give up on us. Because we are trying to catch up.. It takes us more then two days to build something new. We are trying. I don't have 20 years coil winding experience. And we are in the middle putting together the "whats going on" or at least I am:thumbsup:

Now buck up, get back to work, and tell us what happens with your next extra coil.... I'm taking notes, trust me...
:peaceflag:

xee2
05-02-2012, 02:28 AM
@ David G Dawson

It is great to have someone who understands what EPD was doing. Can you explain the purpose of the "primary" copper sheet coil. As far as I can tell it is just adding capacitance to the secondary coil by way of mutual coupling.

madhatter
05-02-2012, 02:49 AM
MadHatter,
You are incorrect and please read the URL I posted as it very clearly states that the 0.637 point is AVERAGE VALUE (Vav) and 0.707 is RMS VALUE (Vrms).
I have been in this game a long time and know what is what.
Please check your facts before responding to anything I have presented.
I don't mind criticism but this is BS!



Yes, it is the average value, my mistake in calling it rms. It is the average of half the sine wave and is normally applied to a rectified waveform.

Look forward to your results, and further development of the equations your using.

jake
05-02-2012, 03:02 AM
When close together the inductance of each coil will be increased by the other coil. The coil with the highest Q will primarily effect self resonant frequency. You should set SRF of secondary then gradually move primary closer re-tuning the SRF of each coil as you move them together.

This is how I measure self resonant frequency.

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1086/resonantfrequencytest.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/resonantfrequencytest.jpg/)

:thanks:

6 - 330pF across the primary and the system is happiest at 1640. It is now louder with only a ground(house ground) than it was with the fireplace antenna and I can listen to the piezo earpiece well without even touching the diode to the secondary. It will also light an led.

So now I need that 2 plate capacitor I was talking about earlier. That way the capacitor metal will match the primary metal.

madhatter
05-02-2012, 03:06 AM
David, you're not going to like this and I mean no insult to you at all. Your calcs are still based on the velocity of C, Eric is clear and adamant that this is wrong! any and all variations of the harmonics based on the propagation speed of light will result in the wrong direction being taken.

If I have somehow missed where you've taken this into account please point it out to me:cheers:

I agree with Eric on the increased velocity propagation to what extent is where it needs fine tuning. the rotation of the B field is where the velocity start to increase and is a cos value, how far that rotation is, well... that's a good question.

xee2
05-02-2012, 03:19 AM
:
6 - 330pF across the primary and the system is happiest at 1640. It is now louder with only a ground(house ground) than it was with the fireplace antenna and I can listen to the piezo earpiece well without even touching the diode to the secondary. It will also light an led.


:cheers: Fantastic.

jake
05-02-2012, 03:57 AM
5) PI over two; this factor appears twice in the Crystal Radio Initiative, C.R.I. The (20%) secondary coil "effective" propogation velocity is the velocity of light in the space in which it occupies. Here the Pi over two factoris an offsetof a unit value to shorten the winding to compensate for the heavy external loading that the secondary is loaded with, that is, the external inductance and capacitance from the earth and extra coil connections. The aspect ratio of 1 to 1 on the extra coil gives an "effective" propogation of 187% the velocity of light, hence the winding length must be made greater in order to get a quarter wave resonance at a higher speed. This is brought down to Pi over 2 percent, 157%, the velocity of light to compensate for the burden upon the extra coil, this mostly arising from the dielectric upon which this coil is wound. The secondary is Pi over two shorter, the extra coil is Pi over two longer. Golly Mr. Wizard that's Pi squared over four! Do not hunt for magic where it is not, this is all experimental. So go experiment.

.

If the secondary is Pi over two shorter, the extra coil is Pi over two longer what is the actual length in rad.

It been a long time since I worked in radians. Is this correct:

pi/2 shorter = ((3*pi)/2)*'?'
pi/2 longer = ((5*pi)/2)*'?'

?= cycle or wave or...

:wall:

madhatter
05-02-2012, 05:03 AM
If the secondary is Pi over two shorter, the extra coil is Pi over two longer what is the actual length in rad.

It been a long time since I worked in radians. Is this correct:

pi/2 shorter = ((3*pi)/2)*'?'
pi/2 longer = ((5*pi)/2)*'?'

?= cycle or wave or...

:wall:

Pi/2 = 1.5707
1.57... rads is 90*

Pi = 180*
1 rad = 180*/pi = 57.29577*

90* is the multiplication of -j rotation. reference to Steinmetz and the operator, also it's the rotation of the B field and hence the reason for the increased velocity.

jake
05-02-2012, 04:55 PM
Pi/2 = 1.5707
1.57... rads is 90*

Pi = 180*
1 rad = 180*/pi = 57.29577*

90* is the multiplication of -j rotation. reference to Steinmetz and the operator, also it's the rotation of the B field and hence the reason for the increased velocity.


The secondary length is given by C/omega or C/(2piF). As stated by Eric this is pi/2 shorter.. Shorter than what(w)? [pi/2 = 90* = 1/4 cycle]

So pi/2 less than one cycle is 3pi/2 or 3/4 of a cycle.

So what is the standard that we are taking away from? In terms of pi.

madhatter
05-02-2012, 06:21 PM
The secondary length is given by C/omega or C/(2piF). As stated by Eric this is pi/2 shorter.. Shorter than what(w)? [pi/2 = 90* = 1/4 cycle]

So pi/2 less than one cycle is 3pi/2 or 3/4 of a cycle.

So what is the standard that we are taking away from? In terms of pi.

The secondary is in radians not degrees, so the wave length is equal to it's arc length.

Erics comment of the pi over two longer or shorter is by my understanding the reference to -j operator which is a pi/2 multiplication rotation of the B field.

I'm working on some other relations for the extra coil at the moment using hyperbolic trig and will post as soon as I have something.

xee2
05-02-2012, 06:34 PM
@ jake

Is this what your circuit looks like?

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/6473/scrystalradio.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/scrystalradio.jpg/)

madhatter
05-02-2012, 06:46 PM
I wanted to post a comment.
I realize that we can twist and fiddle fart all we want with the mathematics to get results we want. the math in reality should be the theory and the experimental lab work is testing that theory, when it doesn't match or the results are different its back to the drawing board to re-do or re-calculate the math again.

Math is a VERY powerful tool in setting up a theory and testing it. If there is a pattern where experimental results fit the mathematics used then expanding on the mathematical theory gets a bit easier however one still has to be careful that we don't start to effect the results by manipulating the results thru the mathematics used.

Thankfully a lot of the base math is known and results are predictable, we are though when getting to the extra coil moving into the unknown. coil winding and manipulation of fields thru various winding designs is nothing new, this is not what Eric or Tesla was doing though. instead of trying to force or manipulate the fields Tesla was using the base parameters of the fields to manipulate them. Steinmetz covers this with the J operator in hyperbolic form, Clifford algebra is another useful tool though it's basis was quaternions - another story for another day:wall:

The goal is to get to L&C to match in harmony, nondestructive resonance. once achieved there should be a rotation of the B field to where the conjugate pair is no more, this will give rise to velocity of the wave faster than C. simple in theory but highly complicated in practice due to the sheer number of parameters involved and that the mathematics for engineering this are not finished.

Now here's the 64 trillion dollar question (inflation:D ), when the B field is longitudinal to the E field, is the extra coil still inductively coupled to the secondary? or is it now in electrostatic phase coupling? it needs both to achieve resonance, but once there what happens? is it the elusive sink and radiator Steinmetz theorized? :thinking:

:cheers:

madhatter
05-02-2012, 06:52 PM
@ jake

Is this what your circuit looks like?

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/6473/scrystalradio.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/scrystalradio.jpg/)

you don't need a full bridge rectifier or capacitor for the LED, or at least I don't. single diode and led with leads shunting top and ground will light the LED nicely.

xee2
05-02-2012, 07:27 PM
@ madhatter

Thanks for the info. How far are you away from the transmitter? I would try this but the nearest transmitter to me is about 50 miles away.

I know nothing about this antenna design, but as an ex-ham the top coil looks like an inductive matching coil that is used on ham whip antennas that are shorter than 1/4 wavelength. When the whip is less than 1/4 wavelength it looks like a large capacitive reactance. Putting an inductor in series with the capacitance cancels out the reactive components and makes the whip look like a small real impedance instead of a large reactive impedance. This makes it easier to get power into and out of the whip.

madhatter
05-02-2012, 08:06 PM
@ madhatter

Thanks for the info. How far are you away from the transmitter? I would try this but the nearest transmitter to me is about 50 miles away.

I know nothing about this antenna design, but as an ex-ham the top coil looks like an inductive matching coil that is used on ham whip antennas that are shorter than 1/4 wavelength. When the whip is less than 1/4 wavelength it looks like a large capacitive reactance. Putting an inductor in series with the capacitance cancels out the reactive components and makes the whip look like a small real impedance instead of a large reactive impedance. This makes it easier to get power into and out of the whip.

Ahh, well the radio setup was too problomatic and that transmitter is roughly 36miles away.

I turned my attention to smaller scale and built two sets CW and CCW coil sets at 4Mhz.

This is a bit different from std radio reception, the secondary is in radian length. but the extra is very different. It's basic design is based on the propagation velocity increased by 157.08% over C. which increases the length to fit the increased wave length.

the secondary is 1.570 radians in length or 90*, the extra is also the same 90* but at the increased velocity of C by 157%. the spacing and wire ga are designed to create a self resonance within a 1:1 H/D ratio. As you can imagine nearbody capacitance becomes an issue as it's highly sensitive. The extra coil calcs seem to confuse many as well, there is a fair amount of information by Eric Dollard on the reasons and research behind the equations.

It starts from the point that the speed of light is due to the conjugate pair of E & B fields, now by rotating the B field by theta degrees it is possible to increase the velocity by cos(theta).

jake
05-02-2012, 09:12 PM
@ jake

Is this what your circuit looks like?

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/6473/scrystalradio.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/scrystalradio.jpg/)


I started with something very similar to that schematic. But then the ground line from the FWBR came off and it still worked fine with little to no difference. It actually worked better if I held the ground line instead of attaching it to the bottom of the secondary. That reminded me of an AV plug so I tried one and it worked, so I stopped using the FWBR.

The secondary has nothing attached to it except the soda can terminal and the ground. The soda can terminal is optional and the size can be changed to for more or less capacitance. I don't know exactly Eric recommends the can.

The primary has almost 2nF of capacitance attached to it. (6 silver mica in parallel) This will be replaced with a 2 plate capacitor. The LED and Piezo earpiece are both attached to the same AV plug. The piezo is in parallel with the LED on the AV plug. This can be touched to almost any part of the secondary or primary for a listen. It will start to pick up audio about 1" away from the coil.

If there is not enough capacitance on the secondary (not across), hand and body capacitance plague the system. You need to be near it to for it to work. Once I had enough capacitance I could approach without much issue but if I get with 1" it shuts down.

I went with the soda can on the secondary which gave me an SRF of ~2000kHz for the secondary alone. Adding the primary brought that down. Adding capacitance to the primary keeps bringing it lower. But there is a cost in efficiency.

Adding capacitors across the secondary was difficult because I needed so little capacitance. One lead from the top and one from the bottom laid close together was about as good as I could get. Or I could just hold my hand about 1 inch from the coil.

What did you use to draw the schematic?? I need something like that.

The question remains is this all related to TEM?

xee2
05-02-2012, 09:25 PM
@ jake

Thanks for the update.


What did you use to draw the schematic?? I need something like that.


Download Serif DrawPlus (http://www.soft32.com/windows/photo-design/others/serif-drawplus/free-download?gclid=CKfvoKvE4q8CFcIFRQodgSmYDQ)

This is a free version.

jake
05-03-2012, 02:09 AM
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6701/jkscrystalradio.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/jkscrystalradio.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

I'll get better at the schematics.

Thats what it looks like today. Replacing the can with 1 turn 1/2" copper tube made very little change. All of which could be offset by tube hight or capacitance on the primary.

madhatter
05-04-2012, 03:22 AM
I finally finished the extra coil for the other set. So now I have two sets, one CW and one CCW.

Setting them up in series so that the two primaries are back to back and axial the entire series will resonate at 4Mhz, that took some fiddling.

disconnecting the extra coils and leaving them inductively coupled, and the two primaries inductive as well. setting about to tune the extras has been strange, the CW extra tuned easily enough, the CCW extra, nope. I've removed 3 turns got it as far as 3.5Mhz adding capacitance lowers it and I don't feel comfortable removing more turns. something odd with this setup.

For an experiment I fed the two primaries the same signal from the generator, so that signal goes to outer turn of CW and inner turn of CCW, opposite for ground lead. the secondaries are in series with a small capacitor and the free end has 7sq/in of aluminum foil as capacitance on it.

the extras are sitting horizontal so that the axis is vertical, they are sitting 45* off plane of the primary secondary axis at roughly 1.5" from the secondaries edge. top of each extra has 2sq/in of foil. the top of the CW extra is an LED with two diodes. The led lights brightly at 4.1Mhz, placing my hand anywhere near the secondary kills the light, near the extra has no effect. taking the LED circuit and placing it on a wooden dowel and moving about the entire arrangement the LED lights only when touched to the extra or secondary foil end. If I take the circuit and hold it via a plastic clip and move it about it will light when near the secondary free end or extra coils, my body capacitance seems to enable it to light wireless.

I'm only feeding it a 0dbm signal at .5vdc. CW extra coil measures ~3vdc wirelessly.

strange indeed. Oh and the magnetic field near the extra coils is lower then background field! very very weird.:eek:

jake
05-04-2012, 04:32 PM
I finally finished the extra coil for the other set. So now I have two sets, one CW and one CCW.

:thumbsup:

Setting them up in series so that the two primaries are back to back and axial the entire series will resonate at 4Mhz, that took some fiddling.

disconnecting the extra coils and leaving them inductively coupled, and the two primaries inductive as well. setting about to tune the extras has been strange, the CW extra tuned easily enough, the CCW extra, nope. I've removed 3 turns got it as far as 3.5Mhz adding capacitance lowers it and I don't feel comfortable removing more turns. something odd with this setup.

Is there anything different about the coil form?

Is there any change in resonant frequency when you change the orientation?
:thinking:


For an experiment I fed the two primaries the same signal from the generator, so that signal goes to outer turn of CW and inner turn of CCW, opposite for ground lead. the secondaries are in series with a small capacitor and the free end has 7sq/in of aluminum foil as capacitance on it.

the extras are sitting horizontal so that the axis is vertical, they are sitting 45* off plane of the primary secondary axis at roughly 1.5" from the secondaries edge. top of each extra has 2sq/in of foil. the top of the CW extra is an LED with two diodes. The led lights brightly at 4.1Mhz, placing my hand anywhere near the secondary kills the light, near the extra has no effect. taking the LED circuit and placing it on a wooden dowel and moving about the entire arrangement the LED lights only when touched to the extra or secondary foil end. If I take the circuit and hold it via a plastic clip and move it about it will light when near the secondary free end or extra coils, my body capacitance seems to enable it to light wireless.

I see this happen as well. I am working on in.

I'm only feeding it a 0dbm signal at .5vdc. CW extra coil measures ~3vdc wirelessly.

:thumbsup:

How are you feeding it?

strange indeed. Oh and the magnetic field near the extra coils is lower then background field! very very weird.:eek:

Thats why you have to type words here without meaning:grindaisy:

xee2
05-07-2012, 11:04 PM
@ jake

The following test would provide a good measure of how well your crystal radio is performing. Find highest output voltage you can get with a specified antenna length.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1788/outputvoltagetest.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/outputvoltagetest.jpg/)

jake
05-08-2012, 07:28 PM
@ jake

The following test would provide a good measure of how well your crystal radio is performing. Find highest output voltage you can get with a specified antenna length.

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1788/outputvoltagetest.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/696/outputvoltagetest.jpg/)

It will show 2-3v avg. or 5-6v peak to peak if I set it up like that. No antenna. The digital multimeter and DSO nano average values are close.

BUT it needs to be grounded to something in my house or attached to my house, or "virtual grounded" to a copper plate on the counter. The entire electrical system including the mains ground and water pipes all are contaminated with the signal. i.e. I can faintly hear the station with just a diode and no coils..

Outside with a wire stuck into the ground away from the house I just get a signal of ~50mv. Without the wire in the ground I get nada.. ( I need to work on a good ground)

jake
05-08-2012, 07:32 PM
Its going to be dificult to solder this to the primary. :suprise: I have two of these. The other is the mirror image.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9798/copperpic003.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/copperpic003.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

xee2
05-08-2012, 08:25 PM
Its going to be dificult to solder this to the primary. :suprise: I have two of these. The other is the mirror image.


Soldering is best, but just fastening with screws should work.

xee2
05-08-2012, 08:28 PM
Outside with a wire stuck into the ground away from the house I just get a signal of ~50mv. Without the wire in the ground I get nada.. ( I need to work on a good ground)

Is this 50 mV with the resonator?

dR-Green
05-08-2012, 08:51 PM
I think the secondary should be mostly left alone. It can be tuned for best signal by using adjustable condenser plates across it, and the primary also tuned using variable capacitors. One affects the other. This can all be seen on an oscilloscope across the primary. The plate connecting to the diodes "sucks" energy out of it and the voltage in the primary is lowered, also the plate itself affects the tuning so the condenser plates need to be adjusted to compensate. Using a simplified "power" setup with no load makes all this easily visible.

I also get a higher voltage in the primary at 1.4-2.something MHz when the station I'm tuning to is 882kHz, there's only noise at the higher frequencies/higher voltage, so I don't think just measuring the voltage is an accurate way of tuning it or any reliable way of determining what's going on. The signal should be in the primary otherwise there'll be no possibility of powering anything. The radio setup isn't arranged across the primary as a regular Tesla type receiver, rather in this case the primary is just having a resonant effect to maximise the "radiated" signal at the top of the secondary for reception through the plate antenna. In my opinion ;) So I'd say the place to be looking is mostly at the primary.

jake
05-09-2012, 02:11 AM
Is this 50 mV with the resonator?

Yes, just like the last sechmatic you posted. With ~2nF on the primary and no antenna.

jake
05-09-2012, 02:59 AM
Using a simplified "power" setup with no load makes all this easily visible.

What simplification? Please elaborate.


The signal should be in the primary otherwise there'll be no possibility of powering anything. .....So I'd say the place to be looking is mostly at the primary.

With only the primary setup, (coil and capacitor) and the secondary (no capacitor), No terminal.. and grounded to the house mains or metal fireplace. There are two points of interest. One when the point of highest "activity" is at the top of the secondary, the other is a bit off that when "activity" is highest at one terminal of the primary condenser (only one the other terminal shows nothing).
At both of these points it will wirelessly light an av plug(led and 2 diodes in circle) about 0.25" away.

I'm not sure what makes an av plug light an led wirelessly. I thought it was high voltage but there is none of that here.:thinking:
It is a loop and it is in the near field so it might be induction??

Anyone know what making the led light up?

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/442/plugr.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/521/plugr.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

xee2
05-09-2012, 03:50 AM
the point of highest "activity" is at the top of the secondary,


This is the normal high voltage point at resonance.

I suspect your radio is working with the house ground because there is a good ground at the circuit breaker box for the power lines. I also suspect that the circuit is not working outside because you do not have it well grounded. Your soil probably has too little moisture to provide a good ground. Grounding to dry soil is like not having a ground. For the ground to function it must have good conductivity to a large area. Even if there is not a good ground for the power lines, the wiring in your house covers a large area with good conductivity which is probably large enough to be a good ground.

However, I am puzzled by your being able to get a signal without the coil. This may indicate that the power line ground is not very good and the house wiring is acting like an antenna.

dR-Green
05-09-2012, 04:23 AM
What simplification? Please elaborate.[/URL]

If you remove all the diodes from the radio setup and the load from the power setup then you are left with only a capacitor across the primary so a very simple arrangement. As far as I can make out the bulb affects the capacitance/tuning so the 2nd cap is possibly in series with the bulb to reduce the extra capacitance. Either way if you just use the single cap and no load you can see on the scope how the reception (or "activity" in the primary) changes by adjusting the primary capacitance and the secondary condenser plates accordingly.

With my spiral for example by setting it up like that and tuning for best signal in the primary with no loads at all except a scope, to hear the radio all I need to do is place the C0 plate from Eric's radio diagram 25+cm away from the secondary terminal. That reduces the voltage in the primary but not too much because it's so far away relatively. This is probably where the flat spiral and TMT start to differ more significantly, but employing variable condenser plates and a separate receiver/C0 plate is a big improvement over using the C0 plate as both the receiver and tuning condenser, before needing to be within 5cm distance of the terminal to bring the frequency down enough and still hear the radio. Now it's already tuned without the C0 plate as can be seen in the primary.

Does the LED still light if you remove the speaker? It could be acting like a microphone although I don't see why it would work only in certain places in that case. It would be interesting if it still lights without the speaker :thinking:

jake
05-09-2012, 04:33 AM
This is the normal high voltage point at resonance.

I suspect your radio is working with the house ground because there is a good ground at the circuit breaker box for the power lines. I also suspect that the circuit is not working outside because you do not have it well grounded. Your soil probably has too little moisture to provide a good ground. Grounding to dry soil is like not having a ground. For the ground to function it must have good conductivity to a large area. Even if there is not a good ground for the power lines, the wiring in your house covers a large area with good conductivity which is probably large enough to be a good ground.

The ground component is the next item on my agenda as soon as the large plate primary condenser is working at the same level as the current set up.
Thanks to recent Dollard transmissions:thumbsup: on his thread I can finish that up. without excuse.

But the ground is still a mystery to me. Important as it is, how it is supposed to fuction is not clear in my head. I want to lay the ground system, one piece(radial) at at time and get a feel for what changes it makes to this setup. I also have not decided if I want to use the 17 rod or 80 wire radial Eric recommended.

jake
05-09-2012, 05:05 AM
If you remove all the diodes from the radio setup and the load from the power setup then you are left with only a capacitor across the primary so a very simple arrangement. As far as I can make out the bulb affects the capacitance/tuning so the 2nd cap is possibly in series with the bulb to reduce the extra capacitance. Either way if you just use the single cap and no load you can see on the scope how the reception (or "activity" in the primary) changes by adjusting the primary capacitance and the secondary condenser plates accordingly.

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/6407/highzset.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/highzset.jpg/)

Nice, you just made me notice that the radio setup doide/capacitor/high z arrangement looks like the "AV plug / speaker" I made. Just replace the capacitor with the LED.


With my spiral for example by setting it up like that and tuning for best signal in the primary with no loads at all except a scope, to hear the radio all I need to do is place the C0 plate from Eric's radio diagram 25+cm away from the secondary terminal. That reduces the voltage in the primary but not too much because it's so far away relatively. This is probably where the flat spiral and TMT start to differ more significantly, but employing variable condenser plates and a separate receiver/C0 plate is a big improvement over using the C0 plate as both the receiver and tuning condenser, before needing to be within 5cm distance of the terminal to bring the frequency down enough and still hear the radio. Now it's already tuned without the C0 plate as can be seen in the primary.

Does the LED still light if you remove the speaker? It could be acting like a microphone although I don't see why it would work only in certain places in that case. It would be interesting if it still lights without the speaker :thinking:

Yes it will light without the speaker. I have three different plugs I have been playing with. They all light the led.
One is just like the one in the picture. Another is just like that but also has a ~50pf cap across it. The last does not have the speaker or capacitor.

Capacitance is needed on either side of the LED between the diodes and LED. I can hold it or sometimes just attaching an lead will work. If I feed it a signal using an extra 1 turn tuning coil it will light without the capacitance on the LED.

ALSO and a bit off topic but... IF YOU THUMP THE CRYSTAl SPEAKER THE LED BLINKS SUPER BRIGHT... :thumbsup: It cought me off guard. And took me about 10 seconds to realize what happened.

I knew the potential:rofl: for that to happen was there but I never thought it would do that to an LED with a little tiny thump.

now back to work.

jpolakow
05-10-2012, 11:53 PM
There's more material on the Eric Dollard thread, the recent writing on the Bolinas Antenna that applies to this. There's more information on the subject there. Eric asked me to make sure you guys saw that information. Also a lot of your questions have been answered there. Eric also said he is very impressed with your guys' work so far.

jake
05-12-2012, 03:03 PM
There's more material on the Eric Dollard thread, the recent writing on the Bolinas Antenna that applies to this. There's more information on the subject there. Eric asked me to make sure you guys saw that information. Also a lot of your questions have been answered there. Eric also said he is very impressed with your guys' work so far.

Thanks, I always try keep up to date on the Dollard thread. Great info. I hope Eric knows how much we appreciate his experience, direction and help.



@ all,

When I took my primary off to try and solder on the capacitor I realized that I don't know which way it should be wound.

Do you wrap in the same direction as the secondary, then overlap the first turn? (that's how I have it now) OR after one turn go under the first turn?

Does it matter?

Also how close are the turns on the primary? Eric said closely spaced. Does that mean as close as possible. I have about 1/8" spacing now but I was thinking I could get closer and use paper as the spacer. It becomes important to know this before you add you capacitor. Changing the spacing after I have attached the capacitor will cause the plates to be misaligned.

What effect does spacing have on the primary and how does that carry over to the secondary? I tried to experiment with this but I noticed that if I make the spacing larger I end up shorter on the number of turns. That is changing two variables at once and I can't draw any conclusions.

My thoughts are with 2 turns fixed: more spacing = more inductance(increased area), but also less capacitance between turns. ???:thinking:


Thanks,

xee2
05-12-2012, 07:43 PM
Does it matter?


I would say that it does not matter for capacitance. However, the current flow should be in the same direction as the secondary turns. The spacing between turns changes the self capacitance of the loop. Less spacing equals more capacitance. Moving turns closer together is like adding parallel capacitance so it will effect the tuning.

Aether
05-13-2012, 06:17 PM
Editeditedit

t-rex
05-15-2012, 05:58 PM
Post numbers here refer to the Crystal Radio Magic Thread

Post 73, Jake.

Standing wave on coil indicates proper operation. A voltage node must exist exactly at the neutral terminal. Tesla could move this node about in the earth. This is important and in an optimum state the voltage node is right at the point of earthing. A projected wave velocity exist on the earth surface, infinite at the earth connection, and luminal 90 degrees around the planet. It is a tangent function with Pi over two as the "Effective velocity". Hence velocity here is only a projection on the earth surface, not a true velocity, like your shadow at sundown it goes to infinity.

Post 136, Madhatter.

The B field is a bad way to look at this. It is a physics dingleberry. B is a dimensional relation with a per centimetre square. Here it is best to use versor magnetic induction k Phi, see last part of Theory of Wireless Power. Mutual inductance is longitudinal so that coupling remains for concatenated longitudinal resonators. Wave direction now has a role in coupling.

Post 143, Madhatter

Wave direction coupling makes balance to unbalance transformation impossible, this gives the "dead phase" extra coil. If it is a balanced system, every part of that system must be push-pull. Unbalanced unit has neutral on one side of primary, a balanced unit has neutral on primary center tap. All concatenated coils must be wound in same direction as wave propogation spiraling around them.

Post 156, Jake

Do not replace 100 pF condenser with LED, it will distort and rob power from the audio. Use a completely separate setup for LED. Try Ne 2 neon lamps. Also a 10-15 watt fluorescent lamp is a good standing wave "wand", this for tuning.

I would recommend using a GSN7 Triode section with cathode drive from function generator and the primary as the plate tank circuit. See the figure. This will greatly improve resonance for tuning. 50 Ohm across primary NFG, GSN7>6000 Ohm general.

Multiple tuning peaks indicate overly tight coupling between coils. Slowly separate them until only one resonant peak. Multiple modes of stray reception and strong local stations will make grounding and tuning very confusing. An isolation amplifier GSN7 triode isolates amplifier from function generator interaction and gives more power to light neon lamps. Both sections of GSN7 in parallel give more power.

73 DE N6KPH

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/johnpolakow/Main%20Telluric%20Transformer/MainTelluricTransformer002.jpg

madhatter
05-15-2012, 07:40 PM
Post numbers here refer to the Crystal Radio Magic Thread

Post 136, Madhatter.

The B field is a bad way to look at this. It is a physics dingleberry. B is a dimensional relation with a per centimetre square. Here it is best to use versor magnetic induction k Phi, see last part of Theory of Wireless Power. Mutual inductance is longitudinal so that coupling remains for concatenated longitudinal resonators. Wave direction now has a role in coupling.

I'll re-review that, also I was pointed towards the 2002 Oerstad Medal Lecture that covers the need to use geometric algebra -Clifford algebra- to reduce the fragmentation physics has undergone with the avoidance of vectors.




Post 143, Madhatter

Wave direction coupling makes balance to unbalance transformation impossible, this gives the "dead phase" extra coil. If it is a balanced system, every part of that system must be push-pull. Unbalanced unit has neutral on one side of primary, a balanced unit has neutral on primary center tap. All concatenated coils must be wound in same direction as wave propogation spiraling around them.

I figured that may be the issue when driving the CW set and then placing a sheet of plexi between them then the CCW was able to be tuned. more experimentation to follow as time permits.



Post 156, Jake

Do not replace 100 pF condenser with LED, it will distort and rob power from the audio. Use a completely separate setup for LED. Try Ne 2 neon lamps. Also a 10-15 watt fluorescent lamp is a good standing wave "wand", this for tuning.

I would recommend using a GSN7 Triode section with cathode drive from function generator and the primary as the plate tank circuit. See the figure. This will greatly improve resonance for tuning. 50 Ohm across primary NFG, GSN7>6000 Ohm general.

Multiple tuning peaks indicate overly tight coupling between coils. Slowly separate them until only one resonant peak. Multiple modes of stray reception and strong local stations will make grounding and tuning very confusing. An isolation amplifier GSN7 triode isolates amplifier from function generator interaction and gives more power to light neon lamps. Both sections of GSN7 in parallel give more power.

73 DE N6KPH

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/johnpolakow/Main%20Telluric%20Transformer/MainTelluricTransformer002.jpg

Thanks for the input and the time to respond to our efforts here.

Have you read any of Julius Adam Strattons' notes? I was going over his notes on electromagnetic theory from 1941 as he has what I've found to be the most coverage of electrostatic energy and fields.
excerpt:
Conductors play an especially prominent role in electrostatics. For
the purposes of a purely macroscopic theory it is sufficient to consider
a conductor as a closed domain within which charge moves freely. If
the conductor is a metal or electrolyte, the flow of charge is directly
proportional to the intensity E of the electric field: J = aE. Charge is
free to move on the surface of a conductor but can leave it only under
the influence of very intense external fields or at high temperatures
(thermal emission). If the conductor is in electrostatic equilibrium all
flow of charge has ceased, whence it is evident that at every interior
point of a conductor in an electrostatic field the resultant field intensity E
is zero, and at every point on its surface the tangential component of E is zero.
Furthermore the electrostatic potential within a conductor is constant and
the surface of every conductor is an equipotential. Let us suppose that an
uncharged conductor is introduced into a fixed external field E . In the
.first instant there occurs a transient current.

Aaron
04-29-2015, 06:24 AM
We filmed a new video presentation of the Crysta Radio Initative with Eric Dollard and will be posting info on it and a compilation of related forum posts. Stay tuned...

Aaron
09-18-2015, 07:05 PM
Book for Crystal Radio Initiative page 20 & 21 has been corrected and is available at same download link.

It's all available through Crystal Radio Initative (http://crystalradioinitiative.com)