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Agriculture Organic farming, remineralization, rock dust, biochar, soil micro organisms and other discussion relating to soil, water and food.

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  #1  
Old 04-13-2009, 04:12 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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Danger of charcoal / NPK generated by heat

About the relationship between land fertility and artificial fertilizer.

In short, generating fertilizer by heat can make the land addicted to it since it remove the natural fetilizer.

Coats & Schauberger - The Energy Evolution - Harnessing Free Energy from Nature, page 48 (32)
Quote:
Particularly serious mistakes were made through the spreading of blastfurnace slag (so-called artificial fertilisers), whose intensified combustion once again robs the soil of its essential energy concentrates, the congealed oily sweetness, which the de-energised and finely pulverised slag then drags to itself from the surrounding negatively potentiated groundwater. Artificial fertilisers therefore remove the blood of the Earth's formative substances, which it must supply to the plants indirectly for the purposes of further ennoblement.

In this way too, those levitational factors were eliminated which triable the specifically heavy groundwater to maintain its precarious suspension on steep slopes. From this it can be seen how dangerous are the influences of fire and the lower-grade, expansively and explosively functioning temperatures that arise from fire-affected masses.

This vaporising heat-form, which gradually leads to the desiccation of the soil, is the best prerequisite for the development of parasitic bacteria, whose appearance should be taken as a warning sign that serious errors in motion and excitation have been made. If these errors can be rectified, then the parasites disappear automatically, because in a cool (fresh) soil, only apathogenic (health-enhancing) bacteria can survive.

It is therefore ridiculous, for example, to try to treat polluted water with chlorine, or to eliminate all noxious life-forms with poisonous gases, which would otherwise disappear automatically by changing the motive and stimulative influences. In the opposite case, the evil will only be reinforced, for through the influence of the above poisons even what is still healthy will become diseased.

Coats & Schauberger - Living Energies - Viktor Schaubergers Brilliant Work With Natural Energy Explained, page 268(262)
Quote:
19.4 The Pernicious Effects of Artificial Fertilisers

Contemporary agriculture treats Mother-Earth like a ***** and rapes her. All year round it scrapes away her skin and poisons it with artificial fertiliser, for which a science is to be thanked that has lost all connection with Nature.

In the latter part of the 19th century, apart from his other achievements, Baron Justus von Liebig (1803-1873), a German chemist, carr ied out a great deal of research into the elements and chemicals required by plants for growth, no doubt in the sincere desire to rectify soil deficiencies and increase fertility. As in so many areas of science, however, analysis rather than synthesis is uppermost, the aim always to find the one factor responsible for a given phenomenon, whereas in reality all physical manifestation is the result of many synergetic influences.

In the event, Liebig determined that the principal ingredients for soil fertility besides calcium (Ca) in the form of lime, were nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P) and potassium (K), frequently referred to today as NPK.

Nitrogen is supplied in the form of urea (CO[NH2]2); ammonium sulphate ([NH4]2SO4) - a by-product of coal-gas production; nitrates, which are salts or esters of nitric acid (HNO3); calcium cyanamide (CaCN2), which is converted into ammonia by water and produced by heating calcium carbide (CaC2) at a temperature of l,000°C in nitrogen gas. CaC2 on the other hand is produced by heating calcium oxide (CaO - quicklime) which in turn is made by heating calcium carbonate (CaCO3), a substance occurring naturally in the form of limestone, chalk, calcite and marble. Potassium (K) comes inter alia in the form of potassium chloride (KCl), potassium sulphate (K2SO4) and disodium hydrogen orthophosphate (Na2HPO).

Phosphorus is obtained by heating calcium phosphate with coke and silica in an electric furnace and is introduced into the soil in other compounds such as phosphate (H3PO4), calcium phosphate as calcium hydrogen orthophosphate, better known as superphosphate (Ca[H2PO4]2H2O).

All of these products are soluble and the majority of them, sometimes in the form of slag, are manufactured from and as byproducts of what Viktor Schauberger called 'fire-spitting technology'. In other words, they are produced with structure-disintegrating and energy-depleting heat. In their final preparation they are either made into solutions for sprayed application to the soil or thoroughly ground into fine deliquescent powders, their deliquescent properties enabling them to attract moisture from the air or the soil in order to liquify.

As another means of turning waste material to profit, these compounds were quickly seized upon by various chemical and other manufacturers. Despite Liebig's later recognition and admission that the elements required for healthy growth were far more complex than simple NPK and that further detailed analysis was vital lest irredeemable damage be done to the soil, his words went unheeded and the production of artificial fertilisers proceeded apace. With their use, the height of cereals and health of crops generally quickly diminished, each succeeding application further depleting the fundamental fertility of the soil as its organic base was gradually eroded. Applied as part of a highly mechanised farming system using steel implements, large tracts of mid-western America were reduced to dustbowls as a result, forcing the impoverished farmers to leave their land.

Today the use of artificial fertilisers continues unabated, but slowly and surely and just as inevitably they will finally reduce the soil to a lifeless mass. Naturally, the manufacturers of artificial fertiliser will point to the enormous production that has been achieved with its use, but this has been a production of quantity at the expense of continually decreasing quality, of profit at the expense of life. Artificial fertilisers act like stimulants and prop up production like narcotics to which the soil has unwillingly become addicted. Like drug addicts, who can neither function nor survive without frequent injections and who, as their physical condition worsens, require more and more shots to extend their lives a little further, the soil too is dying.
Coats & Schauberger - The fertile earth - Natures energies in agriculture, soil fertilisation and forestry, page 178

Quote:
From Implosion Magazine, No. 21 - written in Leonstein, July 1945.
Julius von Liebig invented so-called artificial fertiliser12 and as a result German industry was severely harmed, albeit unwittingly. We are concerned here not with a fructigenic fertiliser, but with the supply of a stimulant obtained from blast-furnace slag, which has a particularly injurious effect, although it was believed it could be used to good effect.

Artificial fertiliser is the principal cause of the sinking of the groundwater, not burrow-litter, the rotted vegetable matter in the collapsed burrows of small creatures. The reason for this is simple. The incombustible residues of catalytic elements contained in slag13 are absolutely essential for the activation of the metabolism of every organism. Yet they are almost completely deenergised by the annihilating influence of fire. As a result they act like magnets and set about robbing the groundwater of precisely those formative and propellant substances with a force equal to the fire that robbed them of their fructigenic elements. Without the latter, the maintenance of the groundwater's state of equilibrium on steep slopes is utterly impossible.

The pulsations of groundwater, the dynamic impulses vital to the metabolic processes of the Earth, are the biological consequence of cold oxidising processes. These generate the counterforce to physical weight, the hitherto unknown 'levitational force', which in turn gives rise to interactions between gravitating and levitating basic elements and thus to an increase in quantity as well as quality. With further interactions those oscillating movements arise that people normally refer to as pulsations, but have no knowledge of the origins or the significance of these actuators of motion.

These catalytic stimulants, wrongly called fertilisers, have the same effect as injections of cocaine. There is a brief blossoming followed by collapse. The end can only be staved off by stronger and stronger injections. This is the effect of the soil-destroying artificial fertilisers produced from blast-furnace slag.
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  #2  
Old 04-13-2009, 06:54 AM
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thank you for this as everyone can see i have been trying to kill the earth YouTube - Dark Soil
but thanks to Vortex for his message all is not lost!
quite the opposite
Paul Stamets on 6 ways mushrooms can save the world | Video on TED.com
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Old 04-13-2009, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodkins View Post
thank you for this as everyone can see i have been trying to kill the earth YouTube - Dark Soil
but thanks to Vortex for his message all is not lost!
quite the opposite
Paul Stamets on 6 ways mushrooms can save the world | Video on TED.com
Yes, use your used motor oil in the garden ..

I'm serious, I doing a used oil experiment now.
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Last edited by Vortex; 04-13-2009 at 04:51 PM. Reason: I'm serious comment
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Old 04-13-2009, 04:50 PM
Vortex Vortex is offline
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sucahyo, we are not talking about "blast furnace slag". (see slag link)
You are correct, slag is basically toxic waste to nature.
Great post about what most people have been misinformed to be a fertilizer.

We are talking about burning bio-matter to make charcoal.
Keeps materials locked into the soil via the charcoal and the
fungus loves carbon, this keeps the fungus happy which keeps
the plants happy because the fungus feeds the plants.
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Old 04-14-2009, 03:57 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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I thinking of the simmilarity with slash and burn method of farming. I think biochar is a lesser version of slash and char, lesser version of slash and burn. After the forest or land being burn, it will be very fertile at the first harvest and can grow a good crop for a few harvest and then dies and have to be leaved for a few decade for it to recover it self. I don't think it would be a good thing to apply it on land that will be continued to be used.

Also, I forgot where I read it, the effect of fertilizing by burning the land will dissapear if there are any particle of iron in the land. An iron rod planted to the ground will nullify the effect in some meter radius. If you have iron you won't make the land fertil.


Few bad thing about biochar from Schauberger perspective are:
- Burning substance can degenerate land since it will absorb mineral from earth since it contain too much oxida. It attract disease and cultivate killing bactery.
- most burning is done on iron container, another detrimental factor for land. Surely there will be some iron oxide that poisoning the biochar. It attract mollusc.
- both will make water can not be absorbed/lifted by land.


I think biochar is different from the ash spreaded by coughing active volcano which can fertilize land for few decades.


I have few relative that has Master degree in agriculture, and it seems black gold (brand of biochar mix) only used in hydrophonic where plant illness can be controlled easily. I don't have chance to ask more but I conclude this has something to do with more pathogen bactery cultivating in oxidized soil.


I think the slag part used for fertilizer is the charcoal contained in the slag:
Archaeometallurgy - slag analysis - ferrous metallurgy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Many other factors also influence the composition and morphology of slag during the smelting process, in which the charcoal was exclusively added to the furnace, reacted with oxygen, and generateed carbon monoxide, which was responsible for reducing the iron ore into iron metal.

I have seen the gray/black terra petra like soil somewhere here, usually in the form of mud, not sand like in Brazil. I don't think this is man made. I think this is the result of volcano ash being absorbed by the land. I think terra petra exist because of giant volcano erruption create a distributed as along entire Brazil, annihilate population but make the land fertil afterward. This fertility remain deep in soil so scratching the surface will make the deep part of the terra petra resurfaced after hydrogen lifted it after the surface become revitalized again.

Many agricultur or educator here believe that Java is more fertil than other island in Indonesia because in Java there are many active volcano. Farmer in mount Bromo harvest will be destroyed if there are volcano coughing. But their crop quality and quantity will be increased afterward. Usually about weeks later.


About oil, would it be better to use cooking oil? the one without additive like engine oil? Or this is processed with bio whitener first?


For the uses for fungus and charcoal carbon combination, I think we should wait after the expert can recreate forest with it (mentioned in video, thanks for the link ). I think we should be carefull since experiment on lab usually only done in one or a few harvest.


I think we should try completely iron free, burn free farming. It is scary that the expense for the drug used for common farming here can be 50% or more. And a slight mess in fertilizer distribution can be really devastating to harvest. It seems farmer here noawaday can not create a good harvest without constant artificial fertilizer and poison. And worse, they seems to need more and more fertilizer. The disease/bug seems to be immune to spesific poison in just a couple of harvest, and farmer has to keep changing the poison to be able to kill it. The limited number of poison that can be used make it harder.

This link explain the benefit of organic farming:
Longest-term organic trials link Swiss, Rodale institutes
Albert's agroecolgy Assignment

pro contra organic farming:
Organic study joins the science wars


Farmer here already realize that harvest becoming less and less. This is the reason why many politics introduce different kind of seeds and fertilizer to gain trust. Most of them failed at the actual field even when their offering produce good result at the lab.
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Last edited by sucahyo; 04-14-2009 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 04-15-2009, 06:09 AM
Vortex Vortex is offline
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One reason why iron is so bad:
Quote:
Source
A mycorrhiza (mycorrhyzae or mycorrhizas, Greek for "fungus root”) is a mutualistic (mutually beneficial) association between a fungus and a plant. This mutualism occurs at the plant root level: Mycorrhizal fungi are soil-dwelling, root-inhabiting, symbiotic fungi that colonize the fine absorbing roots of more than 95% of the land plants in the world. Various species of these fungi colonize tree and other plant roots to feed on the photosynthates (sugars) of the plants. In return for sugars, the fungi extend ‘feeding tubes’ called mycelia far into the soil. The plant gains the use of the mycelium’s tremendous surface area to absorb mineral nutrients from the soil. Some forms of mycorrhizae can increase the absorptive surface area of root systems by more than 700% compared to non-mycorrhizal roots. In addition, the mycorrhizal association allows the plant to access all of the 15 major and minor mineral elements, many of which are in forms unavailable to a non-colonized plant. For instance, many gardeners are aware that phosphorous is an important nutrient that can become ‘locked up’ in the soil, and be unavailable to plants. This “phosphate sink” occurs because phosphate ions are tightly bound to iron oxides in many soils, and plant root systems cannot access this important nutrient. However, mycorrhizae are able to absorb and transfer this form of phosphorus to their host plants.Through their alliance with plants, mycorrhizae increase the tolerance of their plant hosts to drought, compaction, high temperatures, heavy metals, soil salinity and toxicity, and adaptability to extremes of soil pH.
However mycorrhizal FUNGUS rescues the plants from these iron problems.
I'm not saying iron isn't bad, I'm saying if iron is a problem, fungus is the solution.
Removing all the plants, harvesting, kills off the fungus.
I wonder if checkerbox gardens with plants always present would greatly help..
keeping the fungus strong year round.
This is probably why Permaculture works so well, it keeps a strong fungus network.
Fungus is fed by the plants and feds the plants, they live together and not
very well alone.
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Old 04-15-2009, 07:14 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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I see, thanks .

This make me suspect that Professor Trewavas who said that organic farms could act as repositories of disease, is not taking the test properly. Maybe he does not use smells nice perfectly fermented manure fertilizer. And He may use it excessively, while it should be applied in limited amount. And I think he state it wrong that organic farming main fertilizer is manure.

Manure should never be used as it is, and even after processing with fungi it should only be used in limited amount.

It seems fungus only used for land preparation or fertilizer making here. It seems most research here is about killing pathogen fungus:
Direktorat Jenderal Perkebunan Departemen Pertanian - Home

Currently trend for fertilizer are bio-fob:
http://ditjenbun.deptan.go.id/benihb...o_pdf=1&id=181
Quote:
TECHNOLOGY OF Bio-FOB
Monday, 12 May 2008
Technology of Bio-FOB is a new innovation, introduces the role of microorganism and plant extract (secondary metabolite) in plant cultivation that orientes organic farming and environmentally friendly. Microorganisms used have a role to increase plant resistance to disease (induction of resistance) and productivity of plant.

This technology started to be investigated on vanilla plant since 1990 by collecting and evaluating the potency of several useful microorganisms such as Fusarium oxysporum non-pathogenic, Bacillus, Trichoderma, Penicilium and
Pseudomonas fluorescens and plant extract. Since 2001 this technology has started to be launched and developed widely on vanilla plant.

Technology of Bio-FOB uses 3 kinds of microorganisms namely non- pathogenic F. Oxysporum and plant extract of clove so that its development orientes to cultivation of organic plants. In cultivation of vanilla plant with technology of Bio-FOB, it does not use anorganic fertilisers and synthetic pesticides. Several investigations show that technology of Bio-FOB can
be used on other plants, especially Bio-TRIBA, Organo-TRIBA and Mitol 20 EC likes on cashew plants, black pepper, cocoa, coffee and other vegetables.
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:00 PM
Vortex Vortex is offline
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Luke use the Force, use the Fungus Force

Maybe you missed this or didn't read what was being said.
burning biomass - carbon footprint

In the picture above are two pots with one plant in each pot.
One pot has good fungus in it and the other pot has NO FUNGUS .. both plants are the same AGE!!!.

(look real close, there IS a plant in the other pot)

You must remember, these people are trying to make their jobs important
and meaningful. Telling you it's simple, just watch how nature does it would
put them out of a job. These people are just like doctors, treating the side-effect of the problem, instead of the cause of the problem.
If you never treat the problem, then there will always be a need for your services, because the problem will never be fixed.

Penicilium is fungus,
Trichoderma is fungus,

Guess what, you kill ALL fungus (the good, the bad and the ugly) when killing "pathogen fungus".

Loss of good fungus requires massive use of fertilizer to make up for LOSS of helpful fungus.
The fungus protects the plants from diseases TOO!! if it isn't there, it's wide open for attack. The good fungus allows good microorganisms in and keeps
bad microorganisms out protecting the plants from disease, because the
plant is the fungi's food supply.

ASK yourself these questions
Do the jungles need fertilizer or protection?
Do the forests need fertilizer or protection?
Do the grasslands need fertilizer or protection?
Do the swaps need fertilizer or protection?
Do the weeds need fertilizer or protection?
These people are selling snake-oil, nature does not need fertilizer or protection.
If you killed off the food supply and the protection by killing the fungus then
you will need fertilizer or protection to replace what the fungus was doing.
Yes, in harvesting you remove biomass, something has to be replaced...
but these guys would have you believe you need to PH.D. to figure out how
to do that.

Another growing tip: Stressed plants 'produce aspirin'
Above story tells you NOTHING useful really, more quack doctor stuff...
and this Aspirin Stops Plants Complaining -- More gobble-goop.
Almost everything you will read tells you disinformation about Aspirin.
Now
let's find out what we can really do with that information.

Plants treated with aspirin have their natural defenses KICK-STARTING
and the pumps are primed for fast response to problems, bugs or disease.
Ref Link.

Researchers Find Plant Immune System's 'Take Two Aspirin' Gene, Offering Hope For Disease Control Without Agricultural Pesticides
The above link TRIES really hard to not come right out and tell you all you
need is Aspirin by using big words, and saying hormone this and protein that
and "NEW" names. You might have to read it a couple of times to see through
all the mombo-jumbo to realize you only need Aspirin to jump start a plants defense system.

Aspirin works on germination of seeds TOO, more seed sprout!!!!
Aspirin is a ONE time dosage for seedling .. you don't keep using it.
Remember, you have to dig real hard to find non-BS about aspirin, but it's out there.

just keep and don't stop asking questions.
Randy
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  #9  
Old 04-16-2009, 03:19 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vortex View Post
Guess what, you kill ALL fungus (the good, the bad and the ugly) when killing "pathogen fungus".

Loss of good fungus requires massive use of fertilizer to make up for LOSS of helpful fungus.
The fungus protects the plants from diseases TOO!! if it isn't there, it's wide open for attack. The good fungus allows good microorganisms in and keeps
bad microorganisms out protecting the plants from disease, because the
plant is the fungi's food supply.
The link I just posted is official Indonesia goverment website, gov.id suffix. Their job is to give farmer the way to plant more efficiently in most natural way without artificial fertilizer, a heritage from farmer son Presiden Suharto. Current Presiden Susilo Bambang Y has master degree in agriculture, too bad he don't care too much with farming.

Most of the farming method posted there endorse the use of self made fertilizer. Most of the way to kill pathogen fungus posted there is by using the natural enemy of pathogen fungus. Most of them related to coconut and palm tree. Even if it require more fertilizer, it would not be harmfull since what being use is a fermented decomposed plant. And since it can be made from even falling leaves it would be cheap to made.

They endorse the use of fungus too, like:
- "mempromosikan teknik budidaya dan pengendalian biologis hama CBB dengan jamur Beauveria bassiana" -> promoting cultivation techniques and biological CBB pest control with fungus Beauveria bassiana.
Just found out that google translate this phrase into different meaning:
"cultivation techniques and promoting biological pest control with CBB fungus Beauveria bassiana"




Quote:
Originally Posted by Vortex View Post
Maybe you missed this or didn't read what was being said.
burning biomass - carbon footprint

In the picture above are two pots with one plant in each pot.
One pot has good fungus in it and the other pot has NO FUNGUS .. both plants are the same AGE!!!.

(look real close, there IS a plant in the other pot)
A couple of reason to see it as fake succes:
- It is an attempt to sell product
- The difference of size is too much, more like different treatment.
- It may also because the soil being used is a completly dead soil, so adding carbon improve it a lot.
Edit: just found the confirmation:
Vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizal (VAM) fungi | BioEnergy Lists: Biochar (Terra Preta)
Quote:
The medium was sterilized subsoil
This is not a fair trial. This make the experiment the same as what mainstream science do, which may entirely different if applied it in nature. It would be more convincing if he test it by covering some nearby healthy forest part with biochar and see which part grow better. My current opinion is the one covered with biochar would be less healthy.

- Maybe there is too much oxygen in soil which can reduced by adding carbon:
* Australian Ethnobotany * :: View topic - Agrichar and the amazonian terra preta soils
- I doubt fungus can process bad soil that fast, shouldn't it need weeks to process the land? I would believe it more if the right side is steril soil and the left side is fungus processed soil.


Even if it is legitimate experiment, there are still some doubt:
- It is possible that both plant do not receive a proper treatment. It can be the water is not suitable, or the soil, etc.
- It may have opposite result in different variety of farm, it is mentioned here (Indonesia language):
DIREKTORAT PERBENIHAN DAN SARANA PRODUKSI - MENGETAHUI KESUBURAN TANAH VS PEMUPUKAN
that:
Fungus for organic decomposition can live at pH between 5.5 to 7. It may not live at swamp (can reach 3) or at dry land or near ocean (can reach 9).
( google translation = At pH 5,5-7 The bacteria fungi can be grown organically with good ).

This document also mention not to rely on chemical fertilizer like NPK. It mention the need to watch other thing like pH or trace mineral.

But, just like you said, even profesor would be beaten by experienced farmer. The thing is, in Indonesia the experience of those farmer is not ignored, usually become a master thesis, implemented in small scale and then introduced nationally.
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Last edited by sucahyo; 04-18-2009 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 04-18-2009, 03:06 AM
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Various info on organik farming from:
AGRO BINA UTAMA

Quote:
"The clear benefits are the production costs reduced dramatically. Using chemical fertilizers, I need to pay up to Rp 15 million to get 1.5 tons of NPK fertilizer. With organic fertilizer, 1.5 tons of which have the same womb with NPK, I pay only Rp 2.4 million for processing costs, "said Netty
Quote:
He realized that with organic rice farming, result is not necessarily increased. Until the third year the result will be reduced. But it will slowly increase its production after that because of soil conditions back naturally fertile, healthy soil condition of the production environment-friendly, so he hopes.
Chat with pak Haji is fun and indeed a charming people, according to the pack of pilgrimage in the rice fields after harvest is actually leave waste in the form of straw. One hectare of rice crop will leave more than 15 tons of straw. According to the research, each ton of the straw will provide fertilizer equivalent to 23.5 kg of urea, meaning each harvest rice can provide 15 ton X 23.5kg = 362.5 kg of urea. Processing is not difficult, just use Trichoderma natural biological agens to expedite the process because of it's decomposing effectiveness for making bokhasi fertilizer. It also can function as a natural enemy of pathogen fungus.
Quote:
Organic fertilizer made from organic or natural materials. Organic fertilizer materials, among others, are manure, compost, peat moss, seaweed and guano.

Based on the shapes, organic fertilizers can be grouped into solid organic fertilizer and liquid organic fertilizer. Some people also group mined fertilizer such as dolomite, natural phosphate, kiserit, and ash, into the organic fertilizer.

Some manufactured organic fertilizers are blood flour, bone flour, and fish flour.

Liquid organic fertilizer, among others are plant extract, liquid livestock waste fermentation, and fermented plants. Organic fertilizer has a pouch full of burly.
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