Hi Fleubis,

You are correct. There are no devices with more output than input. This is TOTAL input compared to TOTAL OUTPUT. To have a device where total output exceeds total input would be over 100% efficient and there is no system that is over 100% efficient.

However, there are devices with more output than the operator has to input. This implies there is other input that needs to be accounted for. Even so, it is still under 100% efficient.

A refrigerator is such a device. The work being done to chill a fridge is MORE than the work in joules of electricity that went into a refrigerator. This is fact. Obviously there is extra input that the operator does NOT have to pay for and this is the ambient heat inside the fridge that moves towards a lower potential. The heat is free, is not supplied by the operator and does REAL WORK and this work is NOT supplied by the electricity. This is common knowlege that heat pumps and refrigerators (reverse heat pumps) are all over 1.0 COP but still under 100% efficient.

If you add the work done by heat that is NOT supplied by the operator + you add the work supplied by the operator in the form of electricity you have X parts input energy. The TOTAL work being done is LESS than X meaning it is less than 100% efficient.

If operator input is A and heat input is B that equals X the total input. If output is Y...Y can be MORE than A...MORE than the operator input...there is obviously extra energy input by the heat so more is not going out than going in...more work is being done than the operator inputs.

I fail to see why anyone objects to this. The refrigerator is doing this even if we don't agree this is happening.

If you take a ping pong ball and toss it into a hurricane. The hurricane is going hundreds of miles per hour and carries the ball hundreds of miles for example. The work the operator puts in might be fly power...lets just say 10 joules of energy to toss the ball into the storm. The hurricane supplying the rest of the work being done on the ball might be just for example... 100000000000 joules of energy. Obviously the hurricane is supplying more energy than the operator input. 100000000010 is the total input here. Obviously WAY more work than the operator inputs. The ball fights against gravity, air resistance, etc... so there is a loss compared to total input to total work being done on the ball. Therefore it is less than 100% efficient. However the COP is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than 1.0. LOL

The work being done on the ball is MANY THOUSANDS of percent more than the operator inputs. This system is an open system. It is the same as a refrigerator and this mechanical oscillator.

It is a FACT that sharp gradients violate Newton's thermodynamics. It is a fact that open systems can produce more than the operator inputs. This has been established for decades and is known very well by the leading thermodynamicists in the world. Sharp gradients in chemistry, sharp gradients in electromagnetics...sharp rise and decay times..impulses not waves DO violate Newton's thermodynamics.

Everything you are saying applies only to closed equilibrium thermodynamics.

Extension of the thermodynamics of small systems to open metastable states: An example

"Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 October 27; 95(22): 12779–12782.
© 1998, The National Academy of Sciences
Physics
Extension of the thermodynamics of small systems to open metastable states: An example

.............Small-system thermodynamics is a branch of equilibrium thermodynamics. Metastable states are not, strictly speaking, equilibrium states"

The open non-equilibrium systems that I give examples of are also known as "metastable states or systems" and as the published article by the National Academy of Sciences mentions, Metastable states are NOT equilibrium systems that are encompassed by Newton's equilibrium thermodynamics. This is also why the exact title of the article is Extension of Thermodynamics.... that means the current "laws" of thermodynamics do NOT apply to the open systems and this is why they have to be extended. Basically Newton's laws just don't cut it, they don't apply to those systems and they are incomplete.

This book:
Amazon.com: Modern Thermodynamics: From Heat Engines to Dissipative Structures: Books: Dilip Kondepudi,I. Prigogine
Modern Thermodynamics: From Heat Engines to Dissipative Structures
Written by Ilya Prigogine and Dilip Kondepudi regarded as the two leading thermodynamicists in the world explain this better than anyone.

"Editorial Reviews
CHOICE, April, 1999
Kondepudi and Prigogine's book will be a revelation for chemists schooled in the Lewis and Randall thermodynamics approach. The authors provide new insights into even basic thermodynamic concepts from the view of the Belgian school. Prigogine received a Nobel prize for his work in nonequilibrium thermodynamics, and the last two parts of the book are based on this necessary part of modern chemical education. The first 14 chapters cover traditional thermodynamics in an unconventional and insightful way. The last two parts are available for use in more advanced courses than a first reading of the subject. Further, the book as a whole presents a rarely accomplished view of both equilibrium and non-equilibrium thermodynamics. A number of problems are included, and the reader is encouraged to solve some of them using Mthematica and/or other computer packages. The authors acknowledge the existence of real data and other information on the Web and encourage the reader to access these sources via Internet addresses provided. A fresh presentation of thermodynamics, which underscores this science as one of irreversible processes. Upper-division undergraduates through professionals.

High Temperatures - High Pressures, Vol. 30, No. 6, 1998
The authors of this book have identified a gap in the range of textbooks currently available, and have filled it, efficiently and admirably. .... Lecturers in physics, chemistry and engineering will find this text invaluable for their undergraduate courses, and postgraduates in the area of thermodynamics will find it essential reading. ..."

The open system thermodyamic systems governing over 1.0 COP systems is not some nutty pseudoscience, it is established fact and the leading scientists in the world have acknowledged this extention to the current limited sytem of thermodynamics that are known to NOT be relevant to open systems. It is only a matter of time until it is common knowlege by the masses and that eventually will be taught in school as being the compliment to the currently taught closed system thermodynamics.

Below is from:
http://cmm.cit.nih.gov/~mago/mystory2.html
"The second law of thermodynamics does not allow self-organization and formation of spatial structures in thermal equilibrium. This is so because self-organization and pattern formation in isolated systems reduces the entropy of the universe. Therefore, to form macroscopic spatial structures, the system must be open, interacting with the external world. This is the only way the system under consideration (a subsystem of the entire, isolated system) can self-organize and remain in this condition over time, reducing its entropy but increasing the total entropy of the universe. The requirement for the system being open is very demanding and generates serious conceptual and practical problems: classical thermodynamics deals with equilibrium systems, and statistical mechanics concepts were developed to understand the microscopic origin of this thermodynamics. To deal with open systems (as the ones found in biology) it is first necessary to develop a non-equilibrium thermodynamics theory and a non-equilibrium statistical mechanics formalism to give microscopic basis to this thermodynamics. Such general theories are not trivial and sophisticated mathematical techniques and controversial concepts (e.g., how to deal with the problem of temporal irreversibility in nature) have to be used."

The 2nd law obviously doesn't allows self-orginization.
Also, it is stated for a system to self-organize...meaning there are systems that 2nd law DO NOT APPLY TO, it has to be an open system out of equilibrium, where open system thermodynamics DO apply (but not the 2nd law). It says a system CAN self organize and be in this condition over time BUT entropy of the overall universe will increase...that is because in open systems, there are still losses (must be under 100% efficient). But the system itself can reorganize...DECREASE ENTROPY (this violates Newton's 2nd law outright - Newton's only allows for INCREASING ENTROPY)...because of extra input from the environment...Gravity in the oscillator for example.