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Old 02-06-2016, 10:57 PM
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BroMikey BroMikey is offline
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next is a world renowned entry right after Peter's (Dr. Peter L.)
This entry reinforces the assumption that Thane Heins has made
a mistake in his experiments and is not infact getting any excess
power. In other words Thane is fooling himself.

Calling him an incapable EE. Now who is the fool?

Perpetual Motion Claim If It's a Hoax, It's a Good One

Nothing more than a hysteresis brake

  • On Feb. 6, 2008, DMBoss wrote:
  • Quote from: blindsangamon on Today at 02:45:23 AM
  • It appears that the Perepiteia Motor is nothing more than a
    hysteresis brake. Placing the steel rods (wound by coils) near the
    spinning magnets induces alternating magnetic flux within the
    rods, the resulting magnetic hysteresis causes drag on the rotating
    disk, and heat losses within the steel rods. Shorting out the coils
    effectively shields the steel rods from the disk's magnetic field,
    eliminating the hysteresis drag. This causes the motor to speed
    up - but not as much as it would if the steel rods were removed


  • Hi:
  • blindsangamon is correct. This is a common phenomenon
    regards "generators", but one often not commonly known about
    if you are not working with AC motors and generators all the
    time. So the professor at MIT may not have this practical
    engineering savvy to identify the issues at first glance.
  • An hysteresis brake is one way to describe the apparently
    anomalous increase in speed when you short the generator coils.
    What EVERY ferromagnetic core does when exposed to varying
    magnetic fields is to have it's domains rock or flip direction in
    accord with the magnetic field changes impinging on them.
  • This consumes power in the "friction" between domains as they
    sort of scrape past each other. It results in the material heating
    up. In addition to this hystersis "loss" is an eddy current effect
    within bulk steel from the very same time varying magnetic fields,
    also making heating of the core. These two effects combined are
    commonly termed "core loss".
  • Core loss produces a reaction torque in a generator, in that the
    domain "friction" resists their aligning with the external field - causing
    more drag torque. Eddy currents make magnetic fields which oppose
    the fields making the eddy currents too, making more drag torque.
  • Now "core loss" in any ferromagnetic core material is directly
    proportional to the induction, B. Put another way the higher the
    delta flux density, the more core loss you get. (it is also
    proportional to the frequency, but let's assume a constant freq
    here, even though it is not at a constant one - it speeds up and
    slows down, again a neophyte mistake - you must measure things
    here at common speeds/freqs to make comparisons accurately)
  • And the induction, B is then what produces the coil voltage
    via Faraday/Lenz laws. That is voltage is the time derivative of
    delta flux. So people, when you short a generator coil and it's
    voltage drops to near zero, you can be certain that the delta B
    within the coil's core is also near zero!
  • So if you started with a delta B of say 1,000 gauss at no load
    on the coils, and your core material produces say 15 watts of core
    loss per pound of core (solid steel is in this ballpark, which is why
    we laminate special steels for transformers which takes the core
    loss down to about 2 watts per pound) then you'd have some
    serious drag torque experienced by the drive motor with coils
    open circuit.
  • Now if you short the coils and drop the delta B down to say
    10 gauss, you have REDUCED the core loss by a factor of
    1000/10=100 times less core loss when shorted than when
    open circuited!
  • This means 100 times less drag torque felt by the drive motor!
    (therefore the common shaft speeds up when coils are shorted,

    [*]This is amateur hour gone mad - both in the videos and mostly
    in these lists! Which does nothing but hurt the cause of getting
    O/U to the masses in my view, as it simply reinforces to the
    powers that be in the scientific community that it is a bunch
    of flakes and idiots making these claims!

  • Now I will also say, that heavily loading certain geometry of
    generator, can produce some gain. I have several examples on the
    bench which do. But they are proprietary and I don't care to share
    this with lists. BUT you have to do proper energy/power balances to
    measure this gain. And you have to endeavor to reduce core losses
    to a minimum and account for core loss change when you heavily load
    the coils too.
  • I have one which gets a gain in excess of the entire core loss value,
    both eddy and hysteresis - therefore the gain cannot be from this
    artifact that plagues all coil/core systems. But it is a modest gain,
    and yes the rotor does want to speed up. But you have to manage
    this speed, and measure the loaded and unloaded condition at the
    same shaft speed, because friction and windage change too when
    speed changes.
  • Then you have to measure True power at the shaft input via
    torque sensing and speed, against True output power, including friction,
    core loss, coil heating and direct electrical output for a complete
    balance. In fact there is an IEEE protocol for doing
    a complete power balance on motors and generators, which includes
    all these things.

    [*]This person did few if none of these things properly and is
    delusional about the apparent speed increasing meaning it is O/U.
    There could be a small amount of gain in his sloppy and amateurish
    system, but it is completely overriden by mundane, conventional
    effects as "blindsangamon" correctly points out.
  • Sorry for being so terse with you folks, but it is very annoying to
    watch so many people do harm to the cause by spouting off without
    really having a grasp of conventional ElectroMagnetics. Both amateur's
    like in these videos, and indeed a large percentage of the armchair
    critics populating these lists! Do your homework before putting foot
    in mouth!

  • There's a few rational voices out there, blindsangamon being one,
    and most of you then deride these voices with nonsense and blind
  • here's a simplified protocol for measuring a generator's complete
    power balance:
  • Pick or know the optimal final speed of the system. Use only this
    shaft speed for all measurements.
  • 1 Measure all parameters in a generator "no load" condition
    including: 2 Friction alone, meaning with no magnets or mag fields
    acting on the cores. 3 Then include the mag fields and measure the
    input drag power (torque times angular velocity).
  • The difference between 3 minus 2 is the core loss at no load.
  • 4 Measure the DC resistance of all coils as they would be connected
    in a loaded condition (i.e. series or parallel).
  • 5 Load the generator at the same speed as the no load tests.
  • 6 measure input power via torque times speed.
    (Newton-meters times RPM times 0.1047 = shaft power in
  • 7 measure True output electrical power. Not with
    DMM's. but with appropriate True Power meters or analyzers.
  • 8 measure coil current, and calculate coil's "Joule heating"
    via I^2R.
  • 9 measure and compare coil voltage compared to no load
    voltage for a ratio with which to discount core loss.
  • Then take the loaded input shaft power in watts as INPUT
    to system.
  • Against this Input, you add the following:
  • a electrical output in watts
  • b friction in watts
  • c core loss via no load core loss times the voltage drop ratio
    (so if no load core loss were 37 watts, and no load voltage was
    125V and loaded voltage is 83V, then the ratio is 0.664. Multiply
    0.664 times no load core loss of 37 watts to equal 24.57 watts
    output core loss)
  • d coil heating via I^2R
  • Add up item a through d for the total system OUTPUT.
  • Now divide Output by Input for your COP. (Coefficient of
  • Note friction, core loss and coil heat are legitimate outputs....
    they heat the room! Useful output is an arbitrary distinction based
    on subjective criteria. If you want shaft power then heat is not
    useful. If however you want a heater, then shaft power is not
    useful! So to know in the absolute sense if a thing is over unity
    or not, you have to account for ALL outputs in a balance sheet.
  • That's another pet peeve of mine - those who dismiss everything
    they deem as "not useful"! Now suppose you had a system which
    routinely produces 200% more heat output in coil heating and core
    heating while it turns a shaft as in some newfangled motor. The
    shaft power COP is only 35%, but overall the system is 200% gainful.
    These persons I refer to would dismiss this as not being useful
    because the shaft power is under unity!
  • When in fact a home heating system would require a heat
    exchange mechanism to get heat from your machine to the air,
    thus it requires a pump - moving air or water or both. So you could
    make "use" of both the excess heating and the shaft power from
    said system!
  • My point is at these early stages it is imperative that you
    measure all aspects even if you may "think" they aren't useful.
    For complete energy balances and because overunity may not
    come in the form you wish it to!

Last edited by BroMikey; 02-07-2016 at 12:52 AM.
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